Thread Rating:

weaselman
weaselman
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 2349
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
November 17th, 2011 at 8:16:22 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Doctor-patient privilege, including that for psychotherapy, can be breached if/when the doctor suspects a crime was or is about to be committed.


Not, not past tense. If the crime is in progress, or there are reasonable grounds to believe that it will be committed, yes, privilege does not apply. But information of any any crime that has been committed in the past is still privileged.

Quote:

For example, an ER physician treating a child with an unusual number of injuries may call the authorities to report a suspicion of child abuse.


This is different, the perpetrator of the crime is not a patient, so the privilege does not apply.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
November 17th, 2011 at 1:02:55 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I just wish I could recall the term for it that Pol Pot used. It's one of the words that like "re-education" that sounds very innocuous, but really isn't.



Self-criticism (jiantao).

Came back across it today when reading up on the Shining Path.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
November 17th, 2011 at 3:03:00 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Read any serious history about that period and the myths and untruths Bob writes about will be exposed



He's referring the cover up job the Church has been doing
since Vatican II to whitewash their image. They want to play
down all the atrocities they commited in the past by denying
most of them ever happened. Look, they say, we've found
'hidden' documents in the Vatican archives that show the
Inquisition wasn't so bad after all. They aren't fooling anybody,
but they will eventually. If you tell the lie long enough, people
will believe. This is all part of the new, friendlier, hands on
Church. Thats why they stopped having mass in latin here,
it wasn't 'people friendly'.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
November 19th, 2011 at 6:13:13 PM permalink
Just got back from NCYC; a gathering of 23,000 young Catholics who were all "Called to Glory". What an amazing experience! One of the things that struck me was how hungry the youth were to go deeper in their relationship with God. We gave them a lot of quality presentations and entertainment, but what they wanted more than anything was an experience of prayer and connection to the Divine. They are looking for hope, meaning, purpose, and promise in their lives - it was truly glorious to see. It gave me lots of hope for the future of the Church and our world.
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
November 20th, 2011 at 1:32:43 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

He's referring the cover up job the Church has been doing
since Vatican II to whitewash their image. They want to play
down all the atrocities they commited in the past by denying
most of them ever happened. Look, they say, we've found
'hidden' documents in the Vatican archives that show the
Inquisition wasn't so bad after all. They aren't fooling anybody,
but they will eventually. If you tell the lie long enough, people
will believe. This is all part of the new, friendlier, hands on
Church. Thats why they stopped having mass in latin here,
it wasn't 'people friendly'.



Maybe this thread isn't the appropriate place for this sort of diatribe. The statements you're making and implying require documentary proof, and you haven't provided any links or references for any of us to examine any. I recommend the Please rag on religion here, not in FrGamble's bible study thread under the "Announcements" heading.
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
November 20th, 2011 at 1:34:12 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Self-criticism (jiantao).

Came back across it today when reading up on the Shining Path.



Is this a book title?
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 327
  • Posts: 9644
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
November 20th, 2011 at 2:46:39 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

23,000 young Catholics who were all "Called to Glory".



Glad to hear things are going well for you, Padre. BTW I got a chuckle, back in my younger days people were still using the old expression "called to glory" as a sardonic way to say someone died! Apparently that is an archaic enough use today to escape any such humorous double meaning with most people now [I'd have to guess your conference used the expression].
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
November 20th, 2011 at 2:50:23 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

a gathering of 23,000 young Catholics who were all "Called to Glory".



"Many are called, few are chosen".. Matthew 22:14

Kind of like the NFL draft..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
November 20th, 2011 at 7:19:36 AM permalink
Quote: NowTheSerpent

Is this a book title?


No, the Shining Path are/were a group of Peruvian guerillas fighting for a Maoist revolution. Nasty brutal bunch.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
November 21st, 2011 at 6:18:55 PM permalink
Quote: NowTheSerpent

Maybe this thread isn't the appropriate place for this sort of diatribe. The statements you're making and implying require documentary proof, and you haven't provided any links or references for any of us to examine any. I recommend the Please rag on religion here, not in FrGamble's bible study thread under the "Announcements" heading.



Here are a few links that could shed some light on this dark time in history:

The Real Inquisition

Fact vs. Fiction

The Economist book review of Henry Kamen "The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision"
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
November 21st, 2011 at 10:25:50 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble



Here are a few links that could shed some light on this dark time in history:



The Real Inquisition

Written by a professor at Saint Louis University. A Catholic, Jesuit university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. Need I say more?

Fact vs. Fiction

More spin from the Catholic Education Resource Center.

The Economist book review of Henry Kamen "The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision"

A review that concludes: So what? It was more like a bad amusement park ride, whats the big deal.

Padre, you're making all my points for me. Everybody
who tries to soft pedal the Inquisition is connected
with the Church. They have an obvious axe to grind.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
November 22nd, 2011 at 1:44:55 AM permalink
Thanks for the links.
Garnabby
Garnabby
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 197
Joined: Aug 14, 2010
November 22nd, 2011 at 4:11:04 PM permalink
I think that EvenBob makes better arguments for FrGamble than does FrGamble (for the existence of a personified God).

Why else would EvenBob be so-invested in this discussion? And which better inspiration for his "innocence" in doing so than a real God?
Why bet at all, if you can be sure? Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts? (P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
November 24th, 2011 at 7:10:26 AM permalink
Happy Thanksgiving! It strikes me that when we believe in God there is indeed much to give thanks for. You can't thank a voidless waste and random chance for our lives, but you can thank a personal God! As far as I can see Thanksgiving only makes sense to a theist. So again Happy Thanksgiving to all who believe in a God, gods, or a higher power. A happy normal day of nothingness to my friends who believe there is nothing.
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
November 24th, 2011 at 7:25:39 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Happy Thanksgiving! It strikes me that when we believe in God there is indeed much to give thanks for. You can't thank a voidless waste and random chance for our lives, but you can thank a personal God!

You can also thank the people who are with you in your life that you consider friends and family for being there. How shallow and selfishly pious to commandeer Thanksgiving for your particular brand of God.
Quote: FrGamble

As far as I can see Thanksgiving only makes sense to a theist.

From reading your other posts, that has become pretty obvious to me. You are unable to see past your own ridiculous superstitions.
Quote: FrGamble

So again Happy Thanksgiving to all who believe in a God, gods, or a higher power. A happy normal day of nothingness to my friends who believe there is nothing.

False choice but thanks for the offering.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
boymimbo
boymimbo
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
November 24th, 2011 at 7:52:42 AM permalink
Actually, I think FrGamble's way off the mark here.

Thanksgiving is a non-theist day where everyone is joined together to give thanks no matter what they believe. That's why I enjoy the day so much, and I'm Canadian.

For example, I am quite thankful to my friends, wife, parents, child, and employer. I am thankful that I have a good brain and am able to make a good living. I am thankful for my health. I am thankful for my skills. I will be thankful for the food that goes on my plate tonight (well, I'm Canadian, so I'm eating Tacos -- my wife (an American - will especially be thankful). I am thankful for my house. I am thankful for this wonderful universe that we live in. All of these I can be thankful for without saying a special thanks to my God, as it might be possible that all of these things, these wonderful things, can exist without God including a Christian God.

But I will thank my lord Jesus Christ especially on Christmas and Easter.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Mosca
Mosca
  • Threads: 191
  • Posts: 4140
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
November 24th, 2011 at 9:26:46 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

As far as I can see Thanksgiving only makes sense to a theist.



If I didn't recognize your ignorance I would consider this an insult. Such a low shot (and I recognize your words as intentionally chosen) is out of character for you.

I forgive you, without your asking for forgiveness.
A falling knife has no handle.
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
November 24th, 2011 at 9:31:52 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Happy Thanksgiving! It strikes me that when we believe in God there is indeed much to give thanks for. You can't thank a voidless waste and random chance for our lives, but you can thank a personal God! As far as I can see Thanksgiving only makes sense to a theist. So again Happy Thanksgiving to all who believe in a God, gods, or a higher power. A happy normal day of nothingness to my friends who believe there is nothing.



Stay classy there, stay classy.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
November 24th, 2011 at 10:12:18 AM permalink
I don't know what to say, I've lost it and let my emotions get to me. Combine my frustration over some of the unreasonable and mean comments I've read against God and religion with the anonymity of this internet thing and you get some stupid things I have been saying lately that have been mean as well. I've got to calm down and let us all get back to the important task of figuring out the best way to play craps, count cards, and find good VP. I'm sorry and most worried that in my zeal might have given a negative impression of religious people. A very Happy Thanksgiving to ALL!
boymimbo
boymimbo
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
November 24th, 2011 at 10:30:43 AM permalink
Quote: Garnabby

I think that EvenBob makes better arguments for FrGamble than does FrGamble (for the existence of a personified God).

Why else would EvenBob be so-invested in this discussion? And which better inspiration for his "innocence" in doing so than a real God?



Evenbob's just pissed off that he has to go to his sister's again for Thanksgiving. The food apparently is not cooked properly. ;)
If God existed, his sister would just cook the perfect dinner. ;)

Happy Thanksgiving, from Arthur Carlson and the folks at W - K - R - P. Video here.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Mosca
Mosca
  • Threads: 191
  • Posts: 4140
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
November 24th, 2011 at 10:35:41 AM permalink
Father, I recognize you are a good man. Internet discussions/arguments are like mental fractals; we start falling down into these holes of minor issues, focusing on smaller and smaller points that as we look closer and closer appear to be exactly the same as the larger picture that, when we started out, seemed so simple and so clear.

We are not different. Our beliefs might make it seem so, but we are not different. At its best, the power of both yours and your detractors' words highlight how much we are the same, not how much we are different. Passion is the best of humanity.

All the best to you, Father Gamble. May you light up peoples' lives, and I mean that sincerely. One doesn't have to believe to be enriched by another's spirit.
A falling knife has no handle.
Mosca
Mosca
  • Threads: 191
  • Posts: 4140
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
November 24th, 2011 at 10:36:52 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Evenbob's just pissed off that he has to go to his sister's again for Thanksgiving. The food apparently is not cooked properly. ;)
If God existed, his sister would just cook the perfect dinner. ;)

Happy Thanksgiving, from Arthur Carlson and the folks at W - K - R - P. Video here.



Bringing it back... "As God is my witness...."
A falling knife has no handle.
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
November 24th, 2011 at 11:14:28 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Happy Thanksgiving, from Arthur Carlson and the folks at W - K - R - P. Video here.

OMG!! It's worth looking at just to see the hair on those people!
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
November 24th, 2011 at 11:29:57 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

So again Happy Thanksgiving to all who believe in a God, gods, or a higher power. A happy normal day of nothingness to my friends who believe there is nothing.



And a happy day to you and your crutch, Padre. Don't
let anybody kick it away from you, you'd fall down and
one of us godless heathens would have to prop you up
till you found it again.

(and you people think I exaggerate when I say the
Inquisition would still be going on if they could get
away with it)
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
dm
dm
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 699
Joined: Apr 29, 2010
November 27th, 2011 at 11:22:56 AM permalink
I do not see that believing in a higher power would be any different than nothing, to you. My personal opinion is that the bible is a very long, strange, controversial, contradicting, impossible to understand but you can infer anything that suits your purpose from, waste of trees. That's not to say that I dislike all fiction-love Lee Child.
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 140
Joined: Aug 18, 2011
November 27th, 2011 at 2:57:48 PM permalink
Bob, a relationship with God isn't a crutch; it's a stretcher. We're nothing (you) without it.
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 7th, 2011 at 9:27:50 PM permalink
These weeks of Advent are so busy and often difficult. Today it struck me that this season is not about trying to make everything perfect, but allowing God to love us in the midst of our weakness and the problems of life. He came into the midst of a young family with a surprise pregnancy who were traveling away from home at the order of a foreign ruler and when there was no room in the inn and they laid down in a manger - then He came! I imagine Joseph probably thought in that moment before Mary gave birth, "Man, it can't get much worse than this." Then after the birth he said, "Man, it can't get much better than this."

Anyway just wanted to celebrate a little hope and peace that snuck into my busy life trying to make everything "perfect" for Christmas.
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 8th, 2011 at 3:47:19 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The whole religion is based on projecting and reading
between the lines. Why is Mary holy in the Catholic
Church, for instance? I've read the Bible, there's nothing
in there about praying to Mary, or using her name or
about crossing yourself. I've read a little about how Mary
got raised up so high, and its so convoluted and so
confusing, I gave up trying to understand it.



It really comes down to the fourth commandment, "Honor your father and mother" which of course Jesus does and asks us to do. Then on the cross in John's Gospel (Jn19:26-27) He gives us Mary as the mother of the beloved disciple and all beloved disciples. So we honor our mother Mary who Christ reminds us is our mother as well, which makes us truly brothers with Jesus Christ and co-heirs with Him to the Kingdom of Heaven.

By the way that projecting and reading between the lines is called "Sacred Tradition" in the Catholic Church and it is an important part of God's Revelation. From the early days of the Church we have always had a special love for our Blessed Mother Mary.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 8th, 2011 at 4:19:52 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

So we honor our mother Mary



'Honor' her? You've deified her to the point
of ridiculousness. Why do Catholics pray to
Mary when Sacred Scripture states that there
is one mediator between God and man--Christ Jesus?

Mary was not a supernatural being as Jesus
supposedly was. Its awfully Pagan to have Mary
so high up, its almost like they did it to draw
in the pagans, having Mary as the goddess
figure. Are they really that devious? (duh)
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 8th, 2011 at 8:23:01 PM permalink
Mary is a human being and the most perfect disciple. All prayers are to Jesus Christ and the only way we would say I am praying to Mary is the same way I would ask you to pray for me to God on my behalf. Like the saints she is close to God in Heaven, but hers is a very privilaged place as the Mother of God. Catholics do believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man, but it never hurts to have the mother of the King put in a good word for you. We speak of honor and devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, but we speak of adoration and worship which belong to God alone.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 8th, 2011 at 8:30:40 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

as the Mother of God. .



Padre, doesn't the phrase Mother of God strike
you as a bit of an oxymoron? Given the definition
of god, how can he have a mother.

"something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements"
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 8th, 2011 at 9:26:02 PM permalink
When we speak of Mary as "Mother of God" we are not speaking of her as the source of the divine nature of Jesus Christ. My mother was not the source of my immortal soul, nor was she simply the mother of my body, she is the mother of my person. Mary is the mother of Jesus who is the second person of the Most Holy Trinity who took on human flesh in the Incarnation. Again while she is rightfully called the Mother of God she is not the source of the divinity of Jesus nor the begining of the Word of God, who has always existed and took flesh in the Virgin Mary. The best place to read about this is the very beginning of John's Gospel (especially 1:14).
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 8th, 2011 at 9:41:15 PM permalink
Mary is the mother of Jesus, thats all. She's not the mother
of god, thats an over the top description to impress the
dumbell peanut gallery of the past. If the Church expects
to exist at all 100 years from now, they need to dump 75%
of the whimsical whistles and bells they dreamed up over the
last thousand years. Its all quaint and colorful, but its lost
it meaning and impact now that the village idiot congregation of
old has been replaced.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 19th, 2011 at 9:27:22 AM permalink
As the world gets ready to celebrate Christmas this Sunday it strikes me how amazing and unique it is that even after thousands of years the celebration of the Lord's Birth has such an impact on the world. I was thinking how sad it was that the anniversary of Pearl Harbor passed this month with hardly a mention. How quickly we seem to forget historical events, even those of great significance. Yet the birth of Christ is very different.

It reminds me that this Sunday we do not simply celebrate a dead fact of history, long over and losing importance year after year to a new generation. On Christmas we celebrate a living person whose significance at His birth is almost too awesome to imagine or comprehend and who continues to be just as important and alive to the world 2,011 years later. Blessings to everyone this holiday season!
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 19th, 2011 at 11:30:06 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

and alive to the world 2,011 years later.



And yet the early church thought Jesus was coming
back in their time, as has every generation since. Is
it time yet to realize the truth, or shall we give it another
2000 years.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 19th, 2011 at 1:13:45 PM permalink
I thought Christ was born in 6 BC (or BCE as seems to be the norm these days). Makes it 2017 years. Of course, he probably wasn't born as mid-winter either.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
December 19th, 2011 at 1:32:11 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

On Christmas we celebrate a living person whose significance at His birth is almost too awesome to imagine or comprehend ....



Holidays are rarely about what they celebrate, but rather about how they're celebrated. If you sell Xmas as a time of joy, family, friends, and of course rampant consumerism, you shouldn't be surprised people are enthusiastic about it.

You may be celebrating Jesus or whatever, but most Christians, even many observant ones, are celebrating the winter break, time off from work or study, time with family, an elaborate dinner and, anturally, giving and receiving presents.

How many Christians bother to observe Easter?


Quote:

Blessings to everyone this holiday season!



Thank you. May you have a Feliz Navidad, too.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 19th, 2011 at 3:03:36 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Of course, he probably wasn't born as mid-winter either.



He was probably born in the spring or summer. The early
church made it December 25th because that was time
of the ancient pagan Yuletide winter celebration held in late
Dec into early Jan. The church couldn't compete with it,
so they stole it. Steal somebody elses holiday, make it your
own, and eventually everybody forgets what the original
holiday was. They did the same thing with Easter.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 19th, 2011 at 4:18:48 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

He was probably born in the spring or summer. The early
church made it December 25th because that was time
of the ancient pagan Yuletide winter celebration held in late
Dec.



The timing of Christmas has everything to do with the winter solstice. The solstice is the time when the days begin to get a little longer and gradually more and more light enters into the world. The early Church baptized this celebration because it fit perfectly the coming of the "Light of the World" as a little baby. Gradually the light becomes more and more noticeable and brightens the world just like Jesus who comes to us in humility as a little child and gradually brightens the world as we come to know Him.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 19th, 2011 at 4:30:18 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The early Church baptized this celebration because it fit perfectly the coming of the "Light of the World" as a little baby..



Nice story, too bad its not true. The early church was in direct
competition with long held pagan beliefs. The Yule celebration
was the grandaddy of all their yearly celebrations, so the church
co-opted it as their own. When you can't fight them, join them.

They did something very similar very recently. The church fought
the VooDoo religion tooth and nail for decades. When they realized
in the 50's they couldn't beat them, they instead accepted them
and some of their traditions. Thats always been a hallmark of
the Catholic Church. First they fight, and censor, and try and
destroy what they don't like or believe in. When that fails, they
accept it and absorb what was once the enemy. Thats why they're
still around, they eventually bend their rigid ways to fit what
the present accepts. But they always go kicking and screaming,
thats the entertaining part..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 19th, 2011 at 9:41:08 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

they instead accepted them
and some of their traditions. Thats always been a hallmark of
the Catholic Church.



Not much of what you say regarding history is totally true but there is a kernal of truth here. This has to do with the fact that Catholics believe there are sparks of truth in any honest pursuit of the divine. Often religions share common themes or ideas, like many pagans from different parts of the globe celebrated around the time of the winter solstice (the German Yule celebrations as an example). When some traditions can be transformed with a Christian message it is a natural way to help people discover deeper hidden truths behind their ancient practices. Another example would be in Africa, the respect and honor paid to one's ancestors and the very real idea that they still are connected to us and help us in our lives, makes for an easy transition to the Communion of Saints. The Church of course has always taught this, but it resonates with a ancient truth many held long before they were introduced to Christianity.

There are also of course many instances that a tradition or practice cannot be baptized or transformed. In my time in Zimbabwae it was very difficult for the Church to fight against polygamy. Preaching about the faithful and exclusive nature of the Sacrament of Marriage was something that was not universally accepted or valued. Again the Church in her compassion and knowing that this long ingrainded thought was going to take time to change made the decision in some places I visited to not withold baptism even if a person had up to three wives. The idea was to begin to teach and help someone to see that while they had a just responsibility to care for the other women in his life the level of love and honor Christ calls for in marriage is not able to be split amoung many.

I don't think in either of these cases the Catholic Church is just accepting and absorbing traditions but rather is transforming and evolving traditions. The Church is celebrating the implicit good in people's natural beliefs or loving people where they are and helping them move to a new understanding and way of living. You have a good grasp I think of those awful times in the Church's history when people forced Catholicism on others through things like an inquistion, that has never and will never work. The correct way of evangelizing is to recognize the good in people and celebrate the kernals of truth in their thought, like I've tried to do with your post.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 19th, 2011 at 10:26:05 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

This has to do with the fact that Catholics believe there are sparks of truth in any honest pursuit of the divine. .



You are the master of spin for the Church, padre. The truth is,
the pagan religions in Europe in the first 500 years of the church
were huge and awesome and ancient. They were daunting to the
little upstart Christian religion. It was either go along with the program,
or perish. So they made the right move, infiltrate, co-opt, change
peoples minds gradually. It took a long time, but they had time on their
side. Jesus was never coming back, the whole thing was a sham,
what did they have to lose. If you delve deeply into the customs of
the church, the beliefs and ceremonies and doctrines are so intertwined
with pagan beliefs, they are inseperable. It had to be this way, it
was inevitable. If I was forced to be a Christian, I would be Catholic.
They are so layered, so mystical, so steeped in history. Its really, for
all its obvious faults, a very cool religion.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 24th, 2011 at 7:22:19 AM permalink
Merry Christmas to everyone! Today we celebrate the incarnation, God made man, God made visible for all to see. For those who don't believe in Jesus or for my atheist friends I hope that over this weekend you may in some way encounter the divine made visible in your family, friends, in your feasting, by yourself, in nature, or in any myraid of ways. Happy Holidays!
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 24th, 2011 at 10:33:05 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Merry Christmas to everyone! Today we celebrate the incarnation, God made man,



Not at my house we don't. I celebrate the Yule with food
and spirits. The days will get longer now, spring is on the
way. We thank Gaia, the primordial Earth-goddess, the
great mother of all. She predates Jesus by millenia and
is always with us.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
December 24th, 2011 at 11:36:49 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Merry Christmas to everyone! Today we celebrate the incarnation, God made man, God made visible for all to see. For those who don't believe in Jesus or for my atheist friends I hope that over this weekend you may in some way encounter the divine made visible in your family, friends, in your feasting, by yourself, in nature, or in any myraid of ways. Happy Holidays!




From our family to yours, may your holidays shine with the light of the season.

Thank you father, for the simple act of civility of extending a Happy Holidays! to include people who don't believe as you do. Sarah Palin can take a lesson from your book.
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 24th, 2011 at 4:47:20 PM permalink
For anyone interested I posted my Christmas homily in the blog section.

Again best wishes to everyone and I hope we all experience in some way a glimpse of the Divine this weekend.
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 214
  • Posts: 12411
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
December 24th, 2011 at 4:56:00 PM permalink
Something for the other side.

here
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
TheNightfly
TheNightfly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 480
Joined: May 21, 2010
December 24th, 2011 at 5:58:22 PM permalink
O Holy Night is one of my favourite Christmas songs. If it is one of yours here are a couple of great versions. Enjoy!

David Phelps (skip to 1:24 to get right to the song)

Celtic Woman
Happiness is underrated
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
December 24th, 2011 at 6:51:10 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

O Holy Night is one of my favourite Christmas songs. If it is one of yours here are a couple of great versions. Enjoy!

At 4:10 when Jussi lets loose, it always sends a shiver up my spine.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Mosca
Mosca
  • Threads: 191
  • Posts: 4140
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
December 26th, 2011 at 7:21:58 AM permalink
"You can't seriously believe it all ... I mean about Christmas and the star and the three kings and the ox and the ass."

"Oh yes, I believe that. It's a lovely idea."

"But you can't believe things simply because they're a lovely idea."

"But I do. That's how I believe."

Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited
A falling knife has no handle.
  • Jump to: