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FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
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November 9th, 2011 at 2:14:43 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Several questions and comments:
a) What's wrong with the idea that life is complete randomness?
b) I disagree that the premise that life is complete randomness necessarily implies that life cannot be understood or made sense of. Humanity, through rational inquiry, is making more sense of life every day. Just the other day we discovered some new facts about the earliest recorded supernova (observed by Chinese astronomers in 185 A.D.)
c) I wouldn't necessarily equate religion to card counting. Card counters routinely get thrown out of casinos.



Looking at point b I think it gives voice to an answer to question a. We long for things to have meaning, for things to make sense. Even as gamblers we want to find a way to bring order to choas and randomness through things like dice control or card counting. We avoid bad bets like keno or we play them just for the fun of it, understanding that there is no strategy or hard work that will make any difference. Maybe that is one of the problems with life as complete randomness. In my opinion things lose their meaning, hard work doesn't make a difference, and the only sensible position seems to be have as much fun as possible, life is reduced to keno, yuck.
thecesspit
thecesspit
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November 9th, 2011 at 2:17:19 PM permalink
Life isn't random. We find patterns in things, and we can repeat those patterns (science, technology).

And though things may lose their meaning to you if it is as the staunchest atheist will say, wishing it to be otherwise doesn't mean it IS otherwise. I find it the weakest of arguments for a God is the one that says "it ought to be so".
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
boymimbo
boymimbo
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November 9th, 2011 at 2:41:35 PM permalink
Agree with the cess pit.

Life is far from random. Our development through time has been a "miracle" of evolution, but we see this all of the time. It's incredible to see how animals work together to make their societies work. Humans are by far the most advanced species on this planet, and the evolution of the planet and the big bang still has many mysteries, some of which will not be explained for some time, but it not an excuse for the existence of God.

In my opinion, if you are going to believe in God, the only way you can believe it is through faith alone. The bible is a great book, but there's no absolute proof that it's the word of our Christian God. If you're going to believe that, you've got to believe in faith. If you're a person of science, you also have to realize that many many stories are embellishments stretched over the millenia. It's difficult to reconcile Adam and Eve existing 6,000 years ago with the fact that the universe is much older and the fact that homosapiens have existed for at least 35,000 years. It's difficult to explain the great Flood when there is no evidence for one. Yet, there are many truths in the bible.

It won't be dissimilar to the 40 point 3 hour dice roll that I will claim to have had 40 years from now (5 years ago, yeah, that's the ticket) -- for the record, it was a one hour roll and I got about about 12 points.

But hey, I'm a Christian, so I'm going to celebrate!! Drinks are on me!
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
EvenBob
EvenBob
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November 9th, 2011 at 3:50:31 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Maybe that is one of the problems with life as complete randomness. In my opinion things lose their meaning



How can something lose its meaning when it had none
to begin with? Whats the meaning of a cat? Or a tree,
or a groundhog? The irritating thing about religion is,
it reverse engineers everything, and then tries to put
it back together so it makes sense to them. They see
what they think is a 'creation', so they look for a creator.
They see what they think is 'sin', and look for somebody
to save them from it. There's zero proof the universe was
created, it could have just 'come to be' by a process we
don't yet understand. Picking and choosing certain acts
you don't care for, like homosexuality, for instance, and
labeling it a 'sin', says far more about you than it does
about the label you put on it.

You said it yourself, religion gives you purpose, a reason
to live, to carry on every day. Its a weakness, a crutch.
Those who don't need the crutch, who are fine with
random events as they unfold, irritate the crap out of
religious people because it can't be possibe that somebody
could be happy without a purpose. So they strive to make
everybody just like them, so everybody will be just as neurotic
as they are. In the old days they forced conversions with
the penalty of death. They can't get away with that anymore
(unless you're Muslim), so now they use guilt. Not nearly as
effective, but you use what you got..
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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November 9th, 2011 at 5:35:54 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

We long for things to have meaning, for things to make sense.



Quite a few animals (with higher brain functions) use whatever limited brain power they have to make sense of events to survive better. That seems likely the purpose of having the motivation.

Does that mean the motivation to make sense for survival extends to forming a religion for eternal survival when you have a more complex brain? Perhaps. Does that mean religions are some sort of ultimate truth or a continuation of that motivation? Which is more likely?
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Mosca
Mosca
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November 9th, 2011 at 5:45:16 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I was just trying to play off the Star Trek comment. I believe Faith in its true sense can take us to places no man has been before. The act of reasoning is taking what we know and reaching new conclusions based on them. Faith does just that. It takes what we know about this wonderful world and our amazing human nature and through a process of reasoning leads us to conclusions about the big questions in life. We would have no way of reaching this final frontier without the power of Faith, which is a reasonable judgement based on evidence and truths that leads us to the things man would have no access to if it was not through the act of reason we call Faith.



That's much better. Thanks. I can see how this works for you and others.
NO KILL I
MrV
MrV
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November 9th, 2011 at 5:54:42 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

... the suffering unwillingly thrust upon us by the broken world in which we live.



What is so "broken" about the world?

Works just fine for me.

I'm content, dare I say happy, and pretty much always have been.

Maybe it's time to toss aside your vestments and live.
"What, me worry?"
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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November 9th, 2011 at 8:14:38 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Quite a few animals (with higher brain functions) use whatever limited brain power they have to make sense of events to survive better. That seems likely the purpose of having the motivation.


Indeed, it is the most straightforward expression of evolution that better survival instincts are more commonplace than poor ones. There's nothing at all complicated about the idea that if behavior X leads to early death (and therefore, less reproduction), then behavior X does not persist.

It's like the old joke: if your parents didn't have any children, chances are you won't either.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
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November 9th, 2011 at 8:50:14 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Maybe it's time to toss aside your vestments and live.

May as well ask a child to stop believing in Santa Claus.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
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November 9th, 2011 at 9:35:13 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine


Does that mean the motivation to make sense for survival extends to forming a religion for eternal survival when you have a more complex brain? Perhaps. Does that mean religions are some sort of ultimate truth or a continuation of that motivation? Which is more likely?



That is an interesting question. I would say that there is ultimate truth connected to that motivation you mentioned to 'survive better'. We are called to 'survive better' and religion does that. Without religion or being against religion is fighting against this natural motivation to find meaning in life. A motivation ingrainded in us to help us survive and to help us live better lives. Without religion and without meaning in life we are doomed to be destroyed by our own selfishness and greed.

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