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FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
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November 9th, 2011 at 9:50:39 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Life isn't random. We find patterns in things, and we can repeat those patterns (science, technology).

And though things may lose their meaning to you if it is as the staunchest atheist will say, wishing it to be otherwise doesn't mean it IS otherwise. I find it the weakest of arguments for a God is the one that says "it ought to be so".



Yes, life is not random. Could we not use this as reason to say there is a creator? I guess we could also say that we don't know or just give us time and we will figure it out, but I don't find that very satisfactory especially because it is irresponsible to not have an answer to these fundamental questions of our existence. I think the weakest arguement for atheism is the old 'wait and see' approach. Since you seem to be saying just wait and see and science will figure this all out, would it be better for you if one said just wait and see God will show us, just give Him time?

Wishing you had all the answers right now concerning why and how we exist doesn't mean it IS ever going to happen. Why ignore the obvious and logical answer that something did the creating and made it full of beauty.
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
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November 9th, 2011 at 10:05:47 PM permalink
Quote: Evenbob

You said it yourself, religion gives you purpose, a reason
to live, to carry on every day. Its a weakness, a crutch.



Religion is more like anabolic steriods. It is not about just living out my days trying to just carry on or sqweak by. Religion is about living life to the fullest. Religion allows me to thrive and grow stronger through life experiences. Religion adds excitment and meaning to life, it makes everything an adventure and gives you the power to push yourself to try to reach new heights. I imagine and hope you are indeed very happy, but my motivation for conversion of souls is not based on guilt, fear, etc. but rather is all about hoping everyone could experience the true deep joy that comes from working with God to make this world a better place.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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November 9th, 2011 at 11:10:59 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Without religion and without meaning in life we are doomed to be destroyed by our own selfishness and greed.



Yes, there are no selfish, greedy religious people. No, wait. They're
just as selfish and greedy as everybody else, maybe more so.

Never mind...

Quote: FrGamble

but rather is all about hoping everyone could experience the true deep joy that comes from working with God to make this world a better place.



Thats the same as saying you wish everyone could be
just like you. Thats what 'conversion of souls' really means.
Nobody can be really happy unless they believe just as you
do. Religion is a dangerous thing, thats why we have to
control it. We've already seen it out of cxontrol, just look
up The Inquisition on Wiki. Those good Catholics believed
they were truly doing god's work also.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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November 9th, 2011 at 11:11:12 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Yes, life is not random. Could we not use this as reason to say there is a creator?



Nope. Why does a repeatable event need a creator?

Quote:

I guess we could also say that we don't know or just give us time and we will figure it out, but I don't find that very satisfactory especially because it is irresponsible to not have an answer to these fundamental questions of our existence. I think the weakest arguement for atheism is the old 'wait and see' approach. Since you seem to be saying just wait and see and science will figure this all out, would it be better for you if one said just wait and see God will show us, just give Him time?



Why is it irresponsible? Belief in something we cannot prove, see or directly interact with could be deemed irresponsible. Telling people the wrong thing could be said to be irresponsible.

I'm not saying "wait and see". God is not a necessary of even a sufficient answer to those questions, anyways.

Quote:

Wishing you had all the answers right now concerning why and how we exist doesn't mean it IS ever going to happen. Why ignore the obvious and logical answer that something did the creating and made it full of beauty.



I don't wish I had all the answers right now. I accept there are things I will never know, like who sent me a Valentine when I was 16, whether or not that guy had AK in my first poker tournament or if there is life in another Galaxy. But I can make educated guesses to all there.

Because it is neither logical OR obvious. One particular answer to a half asked question is not a reason to believe in the Christian God. Your arguments barely satisfy the need for a deity (the Deist approach isn't a horrible theory. Flawed to me, but I think the Deists had something going on there...)

Anyways, I am hardly celebrating religion here and I've stomped in my muddy atheist shoes. I must be a frustrated and sad individual (in-side joke, no offense meant, FrGamble)
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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November 9th, 2011 at 11:48:47 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I must be a frustrated and sad individual (in-side joke, no offense meant, FrGamble)



You're making a joke, but thats part of the sales
pitch. Just like to convince someone they're a
sinner, you first have to convince them sin is
real. If you want to convince someone religion
will make them happy, you first have to convince
them they aren't happy now. It was easy in the
old days, few people were happy. They had no
future and were doomed to live the same awful
lives their parents and grandparents lived. Things
have changed...
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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November 9th, 2011 at 11:53:08 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The act of reasoning is taking what we know and reaching new conclusions based on them. Faith does just that. It takes what we know about this wonderful world and our amazing human nature and through a process of reasoning leads us to conclusions about the big questions in life. We would have no way of reaching this final frontier without the power of Faith, which is a reasonable judgement based on evidence and truths that leads us to the things man would have no access to if it was not through the act of reason we call Faith.



So Faith is an act of Reason: one, or perhaps all three together, of what Aristotle called the "Acts of the Mind". Thus "Rationality" and "spirituality" (in particular, the Christian variety) are the same thing, essentially, once we cut through the sanctimonious and theological language? Could the Trinity be a personification of the mystery of these three profound Acts of the mind? What is the nature of the conscience, then? The "voice of God" within the soul, is it the process, or its result, of rational, dialectic determinations between right and wrong, as absolute, permanent, measurable differences and more than just "feelings" or what Sam Harris has described as "moral intuitions" (an expression which has always bothered me as an Objectivist)? So, Faith is related more intimately to the deliberate, focussed use of cognition, and less intimately to mere cultic belief in doctrines or superstitions or authority as such? The only real authority to a true spritualist (rationalist) is the Truth itself or - as Christians might say - Himself?
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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November 9th, 2011 at 11:58:14 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Why does a repeatable event need a creator?



Everything has a creator. That creator may just not be any force more personal than evolution itself. Causality is both a creature and a Creator, especially in the world of human free will (red herring!) where actions are both caused and free.
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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November 10th, 2011 at 12:03:53 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Religion is more like anabolic steriods. It is not about just living out my days trying to just carry on or sqweak by. Religion is about living life to the fullest. Religion allows me to thrive and grow stronger through life experiences. Religion adds excitment and meaning to life, it makes everything an adventure and gives you the power to push yourself to try to reach new heights. I imagine and hope you are indeed very happy, but my motivation for conversion of souls is not based on guilt, fear, etc. but rather is all about hoping everyone could experience the true deep joy that comes from working with God to make this world a better place.



I like your perspective on religion in general. But what about the New Testament description, as Oswald Chambers often put it, of discipleship (Christian maturity) as involving an intense narrowing of one's earthly interests. Approching Christlikeness often appears to "outsiders" as a denial of ambition and self-affirmation. Why do you think such a discrepancy prevails?
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
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November 10th, 2011 at 12:08:37 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The advantage play is religion. Religion is about believing in a strategy that has been shown to be helpful to billions of people. Religion is more like counting cards....



Pascal would blush! LOL. :)
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
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November 10th, 2011 at 12:19:32 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You're making a joke, but thats part of the sales pitch. Just like to convince someone they're a sinner, you first have to convince them sin is
real. If you want to convince someone religion will make them happy, you first have to convince them they aren't happy now. It was easy in the old days, few
people were happy. They had no future and were doomed to live the same awful lives their parents and grandparents lived. Things have changed...



Wouldn't the best way to convince them that they aren't "happy" be to demonstrate to them that you are (objectively) happy, and that they definitely want what you have? Aristotle called this eudaimonia - a state of intellectual and aesthetic fulfillment - which is more than mere contentment. Who wants this today and can we admit to the longing? If any, who is willing to transcend familiality and cultural subliminals (the backbones of religion) to really say "Yes!" to learning how to become "happy" Individuals? Note that I said "Individuals".

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