Thread Rating:

dm
dm
Joined: Apr 29, 2010
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 699
November 10th, 2011 at 10:54:42 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Scientifically, there is no evidence for God.

My faith is explainable, but I'm not going to explain my faith to those who will just blow it apart.




I read this unintentionally, and NOMB, but there seems to be lots of scientific evidence against there being a bible god.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
November 10th, 2011 at 11:33:38 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause
2) The universe began to exist
3) The universe has a cause

Let us call this cause God who must have existence in itself and not dependent on another. Therefore God exists.



If point one is valid, then god needs to have a casue, which needs to have a casue, which needs to have a casue...

If god requries no cause, why then, does the universe? Furhter, who says the universe began at some point? We know there was a Big Bang, yes, but it was the detonation of something which previously existed.

Quote:

I don't think you can argue with point (1)



I just did :P

Quote:

Once it is established that there is a cause of all that exists out of nothing



But you need to establish it first.

I'll give you a tip: stop using the argument from design. It's weak. It gets weaker by the day as we learn more about cosmology. And it's too easy to poke holes in it. Not tiny pinpricks, but big gaping holes large enough to toss a Hollywood blockbuster plot-hole through.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
November 10th, 2011 at 11:44:39 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I can't and won't believe in God because of the wonderfulness and complexity of us and the universe around me. The only thing I have is blind faith. I don't have a VALID reason why I believe in God - i just do



Thank you. That's what I think all or most believers ultinately have anyway, whether they pile on rationalizations on top, or engage in transparently falalcious arguments. I just wish they'd admit it.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
November 10th, 2011 at 2:21:45 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

If point one is valid, then god needs to have a casue, which needs to have a casue, which needs to have a casue...

If god requries no cause, why then, does the universe? Furhter, who says the universe began at some point? We know there was a Big Bang, yes, but it was the detonation of something which previously existed.



Goodness Nareed do I have to show all my work, even the things that are fairly obvious to most people? It is given that there cannot be a infinite regress of causality. Something always has to begin or create something else which logically means that there has to eventually be a first cause. This first cause of all things has to have existance in itself and not depend on any other cause or you fall back into the fallacy of infinite regress. It looks like you want to say this first cause is the universe, of whatever detonated something, or maybe for you it is whatever caused the previously existing matter that exploded in the Big Bang, call it what you want, I call it God.

Quote: Nareed


I'll give you a tip: stop using the argument from design. It's weak. It gets weaker by the day as we learn more about cosmology. And it's too easy to poke holes in it. Not tiny pinpricks, but big gaping holes large enough to toss a Hollywood blockbuster plot-hole through.



The more we learn about cosmology the more it becomes clear that there was a beginning to the universe in the Big Bang. I'm sorry that science is not helping you, but it should be as no surprise because God created the universe and all that exists to eventually lead us to Him. Speaking of cosmology and holes it seems as if there is some type of black hole of denial that is not letting any light get through to you.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
November 10th, 2011 at 2:35:11 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Goodness Nareed do I have to show all my work, even the things that are fairly obvious to most people?



No. Just give me a logical, reason why the universe requires creation and god does not. The simple assertion that it is so simply isn't good enough. The more so because the existence of the unvierse is self-evident, while the existence of a god remains a matter of blind faith.

Quote:

It looks like you want to say this first cause is the universe, of whatever detonated something, or maybe for you it is whatever caused the previously existing matter that exploded in the Big Bang, call it what you want, I call it God.



Don't conflate entities. I say there's no reason not to suppsoe the universe hasn't always existed, the way you claim god has always existed. Except, well see above what existence can be proven.

Quote:

The more we learn about cosmology the more it becomes clear that there was a beginning to the universe in the Big Bang.



There was a Big Bang, no question. I dispute that it denotes the begining of existence. It's very, very simple: something blew up. So something already existed. It might have been a collapsed universe re-blowing up in any of a number of oscillations (which doesn't seem too likely lately), or it might have existed as a dense ball of everything for all eternity, it may even ahve been parallel univreses probing each other. We don't know. And, again, not knowing something merely means we don't know something; it's not carte blanche to make up anything we'd like to see in its place.

Quote:

I'm sorry that science is not helping you, but it should be as no surprise because God created the universe and all that exists to eventually lead us to Him.



I thought priests had their sense of humor surgically removed during training. I'm glad to see I was wrong ;)

Quote:

Speaking of cosmology and holes it seems as if there is some type of black hole of denial that is not letting any light get through to you.



Metaphors are cheap.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
  • Threads: 171
  • Posts: 10295
November 10th, 2011 at 3:53:51 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

it should be as no surprise because God created the universe and all that exists to eventually lead us to Him.



Maybe two or more gods created the Universe. What rules it out?
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
November 10th, 2011 at 4:20:23 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Maybe two or more gods created the Universe. What rules it out?


And maybe someone 6000 years ago had as much imagination as L. Ron Hubbard had in the 1950s. Nothing rules that out either.

I'm still not clear on how one religion can rationally dispute the tenets of another. Once upon a time, someone made up a story about a sun god with the head of a falcon and the body of a human. But try telling that to the ancient Egyptians. Meanwhile, in the present, we've seen the Egyptian pantheon fall into disfavor compared to the Greco-Roman pantheon, which subsequently fell into disfavor compared to Abrahamic monotheism.

How can anyone be so sure that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam aren't just another step in the ever-changing path of human faith? Who's to say that one day, thousands of years in the future, people won't be looking back on this epoch and with historical curiosity about how people believed in YHVH/God/Jesus/Allah? Isn't it the ultimate in hubris to proclaim one's own religion right and another person's religion wrong?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 433
  • Posts: 25291
November 10th, 2011 at 5:04:24 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The more we learn about cosmology the more it becomes clear that there was a beginning to the universe in the Big Bang.



We don't know that was a beginning, we only know it
was something. Maybe it was a continuation. The Veda's
teach that the universe is constantly destroyed and reborn,
its an endless cycle. This is much easier to believe and
makes more 'sense' that a heavenly father and a horrible
hell. Those sound like quaint urban legends when you
consider the universe as a whole. Study Joseph Campbell
for awhile, you'll get a whole new perspective. He was a
good Cathloic boy at one time too.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
  • Threads: 171
  • Posts: 10295
November 10th, 2011 at 5:25:03 PM permalink
I've heard proposed that without God or religion we would all act as we wish without morals taking what we want and doing what we want.

In fact. It's pretty clear when that starts happening someone's going to beat your ass eventually. You don't need to invent a god to do it.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
November 10th, 2011 at 6:50:02 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

No. Just give me a logical, reason why the universe requires creation and god does not. The simple assertion that it is so simply isn't good enough. The more so because the existence of the unvierse is self-evident, while the existence of a god remains a matter of blind faith.



The black hole of denial sucked away the reminder in my post that you cannot have an infinite regress of causality. I'm not picking the nomenclature that you use, but there has to be something that is not created and that exists on its own as the first cause of everything else. This should be as self-evident as the fact there is a universe. So again just to be clear, everything that exists from ourselves to the rocks at our feet were created. This process of causality cannot be infinite, that is not logical. Ultimately everything must have come from something that did not need to be created. You might call this the universe, you might call this God.



Quote: Nareed

There was a Big Bang, no question. I dispute that it denotes the begining of existence. It's very, very simple: something blew up. So something already existed. It might have been a collapsed universe re-blowing up in any of a number of oscillations (which doesn't seem too likely lately), or it might have existed as a dense ball of everything for all eternity, it may even ahve been parallel univreses probing each other. We don't know. And, again, not knowing something merely means we don't know something; it's not carte blanche to make up anything we'd like to see in its place.



Okay so it looks like you are going with calling God, aka 'a dense ball of everything that existed for all eternity". Okay, if everything has already existed and has existed for all eternity in this dense ball that explodes into the universe - that moves you closer to Pantheism. I think EvenBob is partial to this belief as well. Look we are here to celebrate all religions, so if you believe that God is equal to the universe and that all that exists is synonymous with what other people call God, who am I to judge you. If you believe that God is present in you, me, the trees, the stones, and everything that exists taken together is God who has always existed then at least you aren't an atheist.

  • Jump to: