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FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 10th, 2011 at 7:00:03 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Maybe two or more gods created the Universe. What rules it out?



A welcome to this thread to those who practice the religion of polytheism. I remember being struck that C.S. Lewis in his classic book "Mere Christianity" says that next to Christianity he finds the idea of polytheism or Dualism, specifically a good God and an evil God who are in epic struggle for the fate of humanity, is "the manliest and most sensible creed out there."
FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 10th, 2011 at 7:11:18 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist


I'm still not clear on how one religion can rationally dispute the tenets of another.



I think this thread exists to celebrate religion in all of its many forms and not as a place to dispute tenets or put down anyone's beliefs. I'd like to celebrate the many ways in which people are blessed in discovering and knowing God, in all of the various forms and names the Divine is known. I'd like to hear and see how this has made a difference in people's lives, how it has changed the way they live and move and have their being.

Quote: MathExtremist

Isn't it the ultimate in hubris to proclaim one's own religion right and another person's religion wrong?



That is close to the ultimate in hubris, but the prize in ultimate hubris still goes to those who with their limited knowledge of the universe boldly and brashly proclaim that for sure there is no God.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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November 10th, 2011 at 7:12:43 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Ultimately everything must have come from something



Not true. We think we see endings, so we think there
must have been beginnings. We can't wrap our minds
around the fact that everything has always been here and
and always will be, in one form or another. We know energy
can't be destroyed, only converted to something else. And
everything in the universe is made from energy.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 10th, 2011 at 7:17:54 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Not true. We think we see endings, so we think there
must have been beginnings. We can't wrap our minds
around the fact that everything has always been here and
and always will be, in one form or another. We know energy
can't be destroyed, only converted to something else. And
everything in the universe is made from energy.



Spoken like a beautiful pantheist.
Nareed
Nareed
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November 10th, 2011 at 7:46:50 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I'm not picking the nomenclature that you use, but there has to be something that is not created and that exists on its own as the first cause of everything else.



There doesn't have to be. But it does stand to reason.

Quote:

So again just to be clear, everything that exists from ourselves to the rocks at our feet were created.



If you can't prove it, then it's a mere assertion. It has no more value than claiming seven is due.

Quote:

Ultimately everything must have come from something that did not need to be created.



Repeating it won't make it so, you know. Not everything has to be created. It makes more sense to suppose the universe is eternal and has always existed, perhaps in different forms. It can't end, we know that. If it can't end, it makes logical sense to suppose it never began, either, that it was not created.

Quote:

Okay so it looks like you are going with calling God, aka 'a dense ball of everything that existed for all eternity". Okay, if everything has already existed and has existed for all eternity in this dense ball that explodes into the universe - that moves you closer to Pantheism.



As a result of recent developments, I'm trying to keep civil and not to ridicule or insult anyone's beliefs. So I'll ask you to please grant me the same courtesy.

I call nothing "god" because there is no god. That's it. End of story. I don't have any kind of faith. I don't have a religion. I don't pray. I don't worship. I certainly don't think the universe is god, or that anything remotely like a god is present anywhere. And the second worse thing you can say to me is to accuse me of having a religion, faith or belief in any kind of god. So please don't do this again.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
EvenBob
EvenBob
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November 10th, 2011 at 7:59:02 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Spoken like a beautiful pantheist.



Do you ever wake up at 3am and wonder if you're
following a really old urban myth? Thats all the New
Testament is, strung together urban myths that have
stood the test of time, therefore they must be real.
King Arthur and the Round Table is an urban myth,
most people believe he's real.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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November 10th, 2011 at 8:52:36 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

A welcome to this thread to those who practice the religion of polytheism. I remember being struck that C.S. Lewis in his classic book "Mere Christianity" says that next to Christianity he finds the idea of polytheism or Dualism, specifically a good God and an evil God who are in epic struggle for the fate of humanity, is "the manliest and most sensible creed out there."



Doesn't the god of the Bible object rather vigorously to other gods? Where do you get your support for your rather liberal view?
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 10th, 2011 at 9:39:59 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Doesn't the god of the Bible object rather vigorously to other gods? Where do you get your support for your rather liberal view?



Let me allow my dear Pope Benedict XVI answer that good question from his most recent statements at an inter-religious gathering in Assisi at the end of October 2011. Some background: Blessed John Paul II began these meetings calling together religious leaders from all around the world to meet in peaceful Assisi. This was the first time the Pope invitied agnostics to the gathering and the theme was, "pilgrims of truth, pilgrims of peace." This is just the very end of his remarks, which have many other awesome quotes about such things like recognizing the common truths found in all religions as a way to avoid violence. Enjoy!

"In addition to the two phenomena of religion and anti-religion, a further basic orientation is found in the growing world of agnosticism: people to whom the gift of faith has not been given, but who are nevertheless on the lookout for truth, searching for God. Such people do not simply assert: “There is no God”. They suffer from his absence and yet are inwardly making their way towards him, inasmuch as they seek truth and goodness. They are “pilgrims of truth, pilgrims of peace”. They ask questions of both sides. They take away from militant atheists the false certainty by which these claim to know that there is no God and they invite them to leave polemics aside and to become seekers who do not give up hope in the existence of truth and in the possibility and necessity of living by it. But they also challenge the followers of religions not to consider God as their own property, as if he belonged to them, in such a way that they feel vindicated in using force against others. These people are seeking the truth, they are seeking the true God, whose image is frequently concealed in the religions because of the ways in which they are often practised. Their inability to find God is partly the responsibility of believers with a limited or even falsified image of God. So all their struggling and questioning is in part an appeal to believers to purify their faith, so that God, the true God, becomes accessible. Therefore I have consciously invited delegates of this third group to our meeting in Assisi, which does not simply bring together representatives of religious institutions. Rather it is a case of being together on a journey towards truth, a case of taking a decisive stand for human dignity and a case of common engagement for peace against every form of destructive force. Finally I would like to assure you that the Catholic Church will not let up in her fight against violence, in her commitment for peace in the world. We are animated by the common desire to be “pilgrims of truth, pilgrims of peace”. - Pope Benedict XVI

I could have also quoted from Vatican II documents like Lumen Gentium or Gaudium et Spes. The Cathechism and the recent document Dominus Jesu; all of these mention the idea that God works through many means to bring us ultimately to His Son who I believe is the fullness of revelation. We are all pilgrims of truth, working towards discovering the promised land.
rxwine
rxwine
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November 11th, 2011 at 3:57:39 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

There was a Big Bang, no question.



Coincidently, news from the Big Bang.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
rxwine
rxwine
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November 11th, 2011 at 4:02:44 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Let me allow my dear Pope Benedict XVI answer that good question from his most recent statements at an inter-religious gathering in Assisi at the end of October 2011.



I don't dispute that's it's a better message than many other messages one could come up with. Whether it's true to the intent of the god of the Bible is unclear.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?

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