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FrGamble
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December 27th, 2011 at 5:35:32 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Going by the book, Satan has a much better vantage point of God and was apparently not impressed with God. This seems particularly odd.

If it's possible to be in Heaven with God and think you can still strike out on your own, then this God must be somewhat underwhelming, even. when experienced directly. As I assume an angel would have that advantage.



It all comes down to pride for the devil. Not only was Lucifer impressed with God, he was impressed with himself. God's plan was to serve mankind and to raise them to the heights of heaven. Satan was not about serving but about being served. This selfish mentality is represented by him shouting to God, "NON SERVIAM!" (I will not serve). Even the angels have their free will respected, but in heaven if you are not willing to be humble and serve then, "you don't gotta go home but you gotta get the heck outta here."
EvenBob
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December 27th, 2011 at 5:44:45 PM permalink
Here's the big problem with Christianity. In Buddhism, nobody
cares if Buddha was a real person or not, its irrelevant. Its the
message thats important. Same for Hinduism. Shiva and Vishnu
don't really exist, they're archetypes. But in Christianity, the insane
insistance that Jesus actually exisits in the world as a real person
and you can talk to him and even be married to him, takes away
any credibility the religion might have.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
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December 27th, 2011 at 5:49:13 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca


In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a sex-crazed world. It seems to me that everyone is pretty much going about their business, I haven't seen guys wearing their balls outside their jeans. In fact, every single person I encountered today acted pretty normal. If there is something unhealthy about sex I think I'd have figured it out by now, but everything I've been able to discern is that sex is OK, and most of the problems come from people believing it when others try to tell them how sinful their desires are.



I've been seeing some awful things in the news about young kids, some in elementary school raping and performing sex acts on each other. I find this very disturbing. The teenage pregnancy rate is alarming, the number of abortions is tragic beyond belief, the prevalance of STD's scary, the amount of ads that objectify women as nothing more than sex objects (why is culture so anti-woman), not to mention the scourge of pornography all point to me that we have a unhealthy view of sex in our world today. Sex is an awesome gift and totally wonderful when used as God intended it. Most of, if not all the problems, come from people believing that sex and their sexuality is not very special or sacred. Their desires aren't sinful but their cavalier treatment and abuse of sex degrades and diminishes it, but not without serious consequences.
FrGamble
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December 27th, 2011 at 6:04:59 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Here's the big problem with Christianity. In Buddhism, nobody
cares if Buddha was a real person or not, its irrelevant. Its the
message thats important. Same for Hinduism. Shiva and Vishnu
don't really exist, they're archetypes. But in Christianity, the insane
insistance that Jesus actually exisits in the world as a real person
and you can talk to him and even be married to him, takes away
any credibility the religion might have.



This is what makes Christianity so unique and special. What you see as a problem is the true power of a God who has become man and is really present to us even now. A God who cares about you and loves you more than you can imagine and wants to be a part of your life, is the source of Christianity's credibility. Your repeated insistence that He is not real sounds to me like someone who may as well be saying over and over that bettings systems work. I hope some day you will realize you are wrong before you go broke.
rxwine
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December 27th, 2011 at 6:06:43 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I've been seeing some awful things in the news about young kids, some in elementary school raping and performing sex acts on each other. I find this very disturbing. The teenage pregnancy rate is alarming, the number of abortions is tragic beyond belief, the prevalance of STD's scary, the amount of ads that objectify women as nothing more than sex objects (why is culture so anti-woman), not to mention the scourge of pornography all point to me that we have a unhealthy view of sex in our world today. Sex is an awesome gift and totally wonderful when used as God intended it. Most of, if not all the problems, come from people believing that sex and their sexuality is not very special or sacred. Their desires aren't sinful but their cavalier treatment and abuse of sex degrades and diminishes it, but not without serious consequences.



So, by that criteria, the areas with legal open brothels probably have the most child abuse, and abuse women - or something? Because that is where sex is most open and permissive.

As opposed to places where they try to suppress sex, and run secret brothels and child sex rings?

Both happens in Nevada, actually, and it's a dual system where the worse sort of illegal prostitution exists, but there's also a legal sex area of Nevada, though it's very small and remote, really.
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EvenBob
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December 27th, 2011 at 6:11:47 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

A God who cares about you and loves you more than you can imagine and wants to be a part of your life, is the source of Christianity's credibility.



No, the source of its credibility is the religion has
stood the test of time. Nobody argues with it if
their parents were born into the church. People
will believe almost anything if its been around
long enough.

Quote: FrGamble

Your repeated insistence that He is not real



My insistance is based on observation and common
sense. To believe Christianity, you have to suspend
your disbelief, just like you do when you see a sci/fi
movie. Dumb yourself down, as it were. No thanks.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
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December 27th, 2011 at 6:27:43 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob


My insistance is based on observation and common
sense. To believe Christianity, you have to suspend
your disbelief, just like you do when you see a sci/fi
movie. Dumb yourself down, as it were. No thanks.



I honestly don't know why you would say that. Your common sense is obviously not that common, what observations do you have that make Christianity impossible? Do you really think that Jesus did not exist?!?
EvenBob
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December 27th, 2011 at 7:07:41 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Do you really think that Jesus did not exist?!?



A man named Jesus existed, not the god you think he is.
All that was built up over the decades after his death. Urban
legends were spun, and 400 years after his death, the Church
hand picked the books for the Bible that fit what they wanted
to stand for. Typical story, most religions start this way.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Nareed
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December 27th, 2011 at 8:26:27 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

This radical notion that God is not content to remain distant from His people and shares in our lives, the struggles, sufferings, joys, celebrations, and even our death ushers in a new conception of God. He is no stranger to what it is like to be a human being and we can identify with Him now as brother and friend, not only as Lord and God.



I suddenly wish to quote Darwin's Bulldog, but that would be too irnoic by half... Anyway, keep the last part of that quotation in mind.

Quote:

So, let's make it very clear God is a Father. Who punishes and embraces, both being acts of love. Who sets up rules not to toture or punish but so that you will be happy, safe, and good.



Except a father would say someothing like "I don't want you hanging around with Johnny and his pals. they're a bad influence. if I catch you even tlaking to them, I'll ground you until you're 18!" While god would say "Johnny and his pals are a bad influence. I will slay them where they stand, and their parents, and their children."

Or say someone owes you money. A father would say "I'll sick my lawyer on the scoundrel until he pays." God would say "I'll flood his basement, distrupt his power, foul his water, infest his hosue with bugs, spoil his food, and if he still doens't pay I'll kill his first-born son."

Your father may send you home without supper, or throw you out of the house when you're 18. God would let you starve, or send you to prison for a life term when you're 18.

Lovely, isn't it?

Of course, as far as an immortal deity would be concenrend, killing someone for missbehaving isn't that bad, right? Teh soul is still intact and can come toheaven, or purgatory or hell, and still seek god's favor, or forgiveness, or whatever. If it takes you, literally, millions of years, so what? You have all of eternity.

Now, that seems to me like a god who doens't know anything about what being a human is like. An aloof, remote deity who imposes his will one way or another.

If that were my father, my fondest wish would be to be an orphan.

Quote:

You are so close to getting this point! God does give you everything as a gift and He does that for one reason and one reason only - because it pleases Him to do so and He loves you.



See above. I'd exchange all of your god's "love" for a plugged nickel.

Quote:

Anyway the main hang up for you seems to be that God expects something from you for this gift of life, how unreasonable of God?!?



No. I would like to discuss gifts in another thread. it's an interesting subject all its own. For now, I'll say that if you epxect something in return for a gift, you're not giving it freely as an act of love or generosity, but as a quid-pro-quo. Except god doesn't even ask whether you want his gift or his terms at all.

Quote:

When was the last time you were scared of a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes? Jesus reverses the power diferential and puts Himself into our hands even to the point of death on a cross. He saves us from eternal damnation, he has taken that fear from us.



He saves us from the eternal dmanation he so kindly gifted us with? I can see how that would make sense.

I'll pass on this advice for free, consider it a gift: when you're trapped at the bottom of a hole, stop digging.
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Nareed
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December 28th, 2011 at 7:43:12 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Most of, if not all the problems, come from people believing that sex and their sexuality is not very special or sacred.



What do you know? We agree on something!

Not that I see sex as a "gift" from god (you don't want to knwo what I think it wuld be like if it were...), but it is special and, I dare say, even sacred. Why? Because it is the highest expression of romantic love. That's what makes things like casual sex and prostitution wrong: they cheapen sexual relations.

Sex is made up of two parts, the physical and the spiritual. Casual sex will satisfy the first, but not the second, ditto for prostitution, pronography, masturbation, etc (not that I regard all porn as bad, nor masturbation). And it's satisfying yourself spiritualy that is more essential in the long term. BTW that's where I see celibacy as wrong, too, but that's a different subject.

More later
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FrGamble
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December 28th, 2011 at 7:45:43 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed


Or say someone owes you money. A father would say "I'll sick my lawyer on the scoundrel until he pays." God would say "I'll flood his basement, distrupt his power, foul his water, infest his hosue with bugs, spoil his food, and if he still doens't pay I'll kill his first-born son."



Just to make it a little more clear than what you are presenting a better example would be: Say someone has pressed your children into cruel slavery, relegated them to abject poverty, discriminates against them, and has decided to kill every male child. I wonder if a father would be as patient as God who sent constant appeals to the one committing the sin to change his ways. I think as a father I would be tempted to go in guns blazing.

Quote: Nareed


He saves us from the eternal dmanation he so kindly gifted us with? I can see how that would make sense.

I'll pass on this advice for free, consider it a gift: when you're trapped at the bottom of a hole, stop digging.



There are consequences in life based on our actions. Is this not fair? Would you like that there were no consequences to our actions? Christians believe that Heaven is a gift we receive from a loving God and Hell is a reality that we choose when we reject love and the good and unrepentantly do evil. My personal belief is that thanks to the mercy and love of God (and purgatory) you got to really put in some work to get to hell. You gotta want it, and anybody with any sense does not. My advice to you: stop trying to shovel dirt on top of someone who loves you.
FrGamble
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December 28th, 2011 at 7:48:19 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

What do you know? We agree on something!

Not that I see sex as a "gift" from god (you don't want to knwo what I think it wuld be like if it were...), but it is special and, I dare say, even sacred. Why? Because it is the highest expression of romantic love. That's what makes things like casual sex and prostitution wrong: they cheapen sexual relations.

Sex is made up of two parts, the physical and the spiritual. Casual sex will satisfy the first, but not the second, ditto for prostitution, pronography, masturbation, etc (not that I regard all porn as bad, nor masturbation). And it's satisfying yourself spiritualy that is more essential in the long term. BTW that's where I see celibacy as wrong, too, but that's a different subject.

More later



Whoa, we do agree for the most part, that is awesome!
s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 9:12:38 AM permalink
I have a question. In Catholicism, God has no beginning. Jesus was God's first creation before all other things and Jesus helped God create everything else in the universe. This is how Jesus achieved the office of Son of God. Am I correct or did I mix that up with another Christianist religion?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 9:40:26 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

but it is special and, I dare say, even sacred.



Its just another physical act, there's nothing great about it.
What is special is loyality to your partner. Sex in and of itself
is meaningless. Thats why hookers can sell it so easily. Its
the relationship thats important, not the sex.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RogerKint
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December 28th, 2011 at 10:57:54 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

I have a question. In Catholicism, God has no beginning. Jesus was God's first creation before all other things and Jesus helped God create everything else in the universe. This is how Jesus achieved the office of Son of God. Am I correct or did I mix that up with another Christianist religion?



According to the Bible, Jesus is part of the trinity (Fathern, Son, Holy Spirit) and therefore was not created. This is why christians say that Mormonism and Jehovah's witnesses are non-christian; their texts teach that Jesus was a created being.
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boymimbo
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December 28th, 2011 at 11:25:13 AM permalink
I've been brewing on this for awhile.

Clearly, in this day and age, to believe that the Christian God or any single God is the right "god" and persecuting others for believing otherwise is wrong. I feel that the same is true for atheists or agnostics who mock those who believe in a higher being.

Science has not disproven the existence of God, yet. It certainly has not found "God" either. God will never been found in the physical world. It is purely spiritual. One can say that the existence of the universe in all of its beauty and complexity is proof positive that God exists, while an atheist will go "meh" and point at science.

Humankind is uniquely the only species that we know of that has the societal knowledge through communications to reflect upon their own existence. It is natural for us to believe in a higher power to explain things we don't know. Whole books have been created to reflect the old history and to pass old lessons forward for us to learn from. These texts pass on the meanings of right and wrong, of good and evil, over the years. Christian law overwhelmingly is the law of the western world. We are punished for crime and we are forgiven at the end of our sentence depending on the severity of the crime, yet we are treated with respect when we commit crime. Our whole belief system in the western world of "right and wrong", "good vs evil", and forgiveness are all based on biblical tenets.

Communities are built (especially in rural areas) around its churches, synagogues, mosques, viharas, temples, and other houses of worships. They provide a place of stability, a place to learn. These institutions commonly provide forms of welfare for the poor through its outreach programs. Religion generally transcends wealth. I don't see today's religion, taken in moderation, as a bad thing, at all. I see these various places of worship generally as societal pillars. Yes, there are a few "bag eggs" in the flock, but the same is true for anything out there.

Many millions of people (or billions) who have used religion as a "crutch" have credited the success of their lives to their "god". It's because they don't have parents in their lives who teach them properly the differences between right and wrong, or provide bad examples to them. It's because they been born disadvantaged in life due to an economic, social, or physical disability and have been lifted to success through their belief in a higher power. I don't see anything wrong with that, at all. People need crutches.

Without religion, we are governed simply by the laws of the land and our moral compass. Our moral compass is guided by our learning through childhood and experiences. For a few, that moral compass has been grounded through godless teachings that closely mirror the difference between right and wrong. For most others, that moral compass has been misled through imperfect religious or other teaching.
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RogerKint
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December 28th, 2011 at 11:28:26 AM permalink
I wish I could write like that. I completely agree.
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s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 12:05:16 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

According to the Bible, Jesus is part of the trinity (Fathern, Son, Holy Spirit) and therefore was not created. This is why christians say that Mormonism and Jehovah's witnesses are non-christian; their texts teach that Jesus was a created being.

Okay, three Gods for Catholicism. Yay!! Or are they really just one God? If they are just one God, then why does the Jesus part always talk to the Father part? If they are one being, then why are they three beings? Something doesn't add up here. Just imagine trying to calculate the house advantage with that kind of math!
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
RogerKint
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December 28th, 2011 at 12:46:33 PM permalink
The concept of one god with three separate parts or consciences (the Holy trinity) has always been a tough thing to understand for christians and non-christians alike. The concept of the trinity is taught as early as the first couple chapters in the Bible "let US make man in OUR image". Christians try to use earthly examples like an egg (shell, yolk, white stuff?) or H2O (water, vapor, ice) but these examples are flawed of course. Christians would say our minds are finite and flawed so we can't understand an infinite, perfect God who exists outside the boundaries of our realities. A friend of mine asked the infamous question "Can God create a rock so big that he can't lift it?" and the christian said "He can do both, and if you can understand that then you can understand God". We both rolled our eyes.
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rxwine
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December 28th, 2011 at 1:53:02 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

"Can God create a rock so big that he can't lift it?"



Perhaps God is under a rock.
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s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 1:57:47 PM permalink
Then in which image of God we're we created? The father being, the Jesus being or the ghostly being? And what purpose does this ghostly being serve? Is it okay to say that some things about God are not supposed to be known? And if the answer is "yes" then shouldn't that apply to Science as well?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
RogerKint
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December 28th, 2011 at 2:16:13 PM permalink
I assumed we were created in the image of God in the respect that we are flesh, soul and spirit like God is. Three states of being with one common goal? idk. I assumed this because God didn't say he created animals or plants in his image. I'm sure the priest has a better answer.

The Bible mainly talks about the ghostly being as a replacement for Jesus or doing works for Jesus when he's not around. When Jesus told the disciples that he was going to ascend into heaven after his resurrection, he said "I will send you a helper" referring to the holy spirit. The holy spirit is responsible for the works (through humans) recorded in the book of Acts. These works include healings, miracles, speaking in tongues etc., convicting us of sin and restraining sin. Interestingly, the Bible only talks about the Holy Sprit coming "on" people in the Old Testament, whereas in the New Testament he actually comes inside humans. (insert dirty joke here)

Edit: one interesting note I just thought of regarding the holy spirit. In the last days the Bible says the Anti Christ cannot reveal himself until "the one who restrains is taken out of the way". I have heard a lot of Christians saying "the one who restrains" is the Holy Spirit. So they teach if the Holy Spirit is removed then the Church must be removed also. This further provides support for their teaching of the "rapture" (the removal of Christians from the world by God).

It would appear to me that according to the Bible God created humans perfect and without sin. The bible says humans walked with God (the father) and spoke with him directly. Maybe at that time humans knew and understood God. The bible says humans made the choice to sin by eating the "forbidden fruit" and at that point our direct communication with God (the father) was cut off. Maybe at that point our "cursed/post-fallen" minds could no longer understand God.
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EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 2:52:23 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

The concept of one god with three separate parts or consciences (the Holy trinity) has always been a tough thing to understand for christians



Its not tough, its bizarre. In fact, the Trinity is the most
bizarre thing about Christianity. The word Trinity is never
mentioned in the Bible. In fact, the idea is mentioned in one
place, kind of. It says spirit, water and blood are in
agreement with each other. From this one verse, the early
Church morphed it into the Trinity, the most convoluted
and bizarre concept in the religion. Nobody can adequately
explain what it means because nobody really knows what
it means. Paganisn had a huge influence on the early Church
and it had a belief in Trinity. From that we got Father Son
and Holy Spirit. Its sounds real good but is completely
without meaning. Go ahead, anybody, try and explain it so
it makes sense. You can't.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RogerKint
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December 28th, 2011 at 2:57:09 PM permalink
You're right about it being bizarre, however, it's not only mentioned once in the Bible. The concept of the trinity is taught throughout. Besides Genesis I think of Jesus' baptism. God the father says something about "this is my son in whom I am well pleased" then the Spirit descends on Jesus like a dove. Christians would admit that the trinitarian nature of God is unexplainable and probably incomprehensible.

edit: in fact, they use the last sentence above as support for why their God is not a human construct.
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EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 3:03:26 PM permalink
[moved}
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 3:05:13 PM permalink
The concepts are mentioned seperately, but never are
they mentioned together as a Trinity. The only place they
might be mentioned are in current 'modern' versions that
take liberties with the real translation. Trinity was a Pagan
concept that the church 'borrowed', look it up. This
article
covers some of it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RogerKint
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December 28th, 2011 at 3:11:15 PM permalink
I believe you that the church stole the idea. My point is that the concept of the trinity is taught throughout the Bible. Jesus constantly refers to the Father, the Father to the Son, Son to spirit, Spirit to son etc etc. And yes, I'm sure the idea it was lifted.
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EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 3:22:50 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

Jesus constantly refers to the Father, the Father to the Son, Son to spirit, Spirit to son etc



Jesus never refers to a Trinity, he never says Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In the article I posted, even Issac Newton wrote about it. He noticed
its never mentioned except in one place. Kind of.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RogerKint
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December 28th, 2011 at 3:25:26 PM permalink
True. In the last episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm Larry David never said "I'm bald" but I kinda got the hint as I watched the program.
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EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 3:32:58 PM permalink
The Trinity is supposed to be meaningless. Its the 'whats
the sound of one hand clapping' of Christianity. Its not
supposed to mean anything. Therefore it can mean whatever
you like. When the clergy acts like they know what it means,
it makes them look real smart to the peanut gallery. If
somebody tries to explain it to you, they sound like they're
talking in circles, which, of course, they are.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 3:52:20 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

I'm sure the priest has a better answer.

No, not really.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Mosca
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December 28th, 2011 at 4:13:45 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I've been seeing some awful things in the news about young kids, some in elementary school raping and performing sex acts on each other. I find this very disturbing. The teenage pregnancy rate is alarming, the number of abortions is tragic beyond belief, the prevalance of STD's scary, the amount of ads that objectify women as nothing more than sex objects (why is culture so anti-woman), not to mention the scourge of pornography all point to me that we have a unhealthy view of sex in our world today. Sex is an awesome gift and totally wonderful when used as God intended it. Most of, if not all the problems, come from people believing that sex and their sexuality is not very special or sacred. Their desires aren't sinful but their cavalier treatment and abuse of sex degrades and diminishes it, but not without serious consequences.



OK, then follow this with me. The elevation of sex and sexuality to an exalted place... say, elevating it to a place where celibacy shows the reality of the relationship with Christ... that will stop all this? I mean the raping of kids and such? That the more sacred and and special you believe sex is, the less likely you'll rape a kid?

Do you see the disconnect between the reality and the words? I could write for a long time about this, but I think I'll let it sit right there.
A falling knife has no handle.
s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 5:32:46 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

OK, then follow this with me. The elevation of sex and sexuality to an exalted place... say, elevating it to a place where celibacy shows the reality of the relationship with Christ... that will stop all this? I mean the raping of kids and such? That the more sacred and and special you believe sex is, the less likely you'll rape a kid?

Catholic priests would never ever molest children. Oh, wait..
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 6:04:06 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

OK, then follow this with me. The elevation of sex and sexuality to an exalted place...



Thats the problem, you can't elevate a mere physical
act to anything. An act that anybody can perform, like eating
or defecating. Its just a physical act, calling it sacred won't
make it sacred.

Vows can be sacred, commitment can be sacred, the physical
act itself is meaningless.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
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December 28th, 2011 at 6:08:40 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

OK, then follow this with me. The elevation of sex and sexuality to an exalted place... say, elevating it to a place where celibacy shows the reality of the relationship with Christ... that will stop all this?



You are not following me. My only point with celibacy was that it shows it is possible to live a fulfilled life through a relationship with Christ and without sexual activity. I don't know what you mean about elevating sex to a place of celibacy. I don't think celibacy has much to do with an elevated view of sex and sexuality. However, I do think that if we elevated our view of sex and controlled our sexuality then not just rape but many of the things I mentioned above would become less likely. This idea that sex is not a big deal and can be done just for fun without any lasting repercusions to anyone is just plain false. Sex is an amazing intimate and loving act, you should already be committed to that person in marriage and intimate emotionally and spritiually with the person. Sex has the power to bring forth life. You should not have sex with someone you do not want to have a baby with. I know that right now this view of sex is disconnected from the practical reality that exists out there, this is a huge problem and I could write for a very long time about this too.
FrGamble
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December 28th, 2011 at 6:35:17 PM permalink
Here is my best shot at the Trinity. First of all as someone mentioned the Holy Trinity is all throughout the Bible and as far as I know I have never heard of any ancient pagan religions having anything like a Trinity. It is a pretty unique understanding of God that explains the possibility of the Incarnation of the 2nd person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ who is true God and true man.

As Roger did an admirable job describing the Trinity is three in one. One God in three equal and distinct persons. The first question that I heard raised is how is this possible? Imagine if you could so completely give yourself to another that you lose yourself in them completely. Your being, your presence, your essense is so completely given to that person out of love that you have nothing left you can call your own - your thoughts, dreams, hopes, 'who you are' is lost in the other. Now imagine if the other did the same thing. God completely and totally loves in this way. However, you need a third person to make this love truly perfect because the perfect love of God is altruistic and selfless and does not demand to be returned. So you have a trinity in God who all share the same substance (Divinity or love) and are three persons because each is pouring themselves competely to the other and receiving love completely from another. This helps me understand why St. John says "God is Love." The essence of God is love because it is the constant and complete outpouring of love between the three persons that make the Trinity truly One in Three.

Okay, you are right it is though to understand, almost as though as trying to imagine creation coming from nowhere without a creator.

Maybe a better question than the how of the Trinity is the why? It shows that community and selfless love is at the core of who God is. We are made in the image and likeness of God. Not Jesus or one of the three, but all three. We are made in the image of the Trinity, which means at our core is community and selfless love too. It also means our destiny is to share in the love of the Trinity forever, to be caught up in the divine dance of love.
s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 6:48:58 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

I'm sure the priest has a better answer.

Quote: s2dbaker

No, not really.

love love HocusPocus .. Trinity.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 6:50:43 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

First of all as someone mentioned the Holy Trinity is all throughout the Bible



No, its not. The word Trinity in not in the Bible.
The concepts of father, son and holy spirit are
mentioned seperately, nowhere are they connected.
Please provide verses where they are. A real Bible,
a real translation from Greek.

Quote: FrGamble

So you have a trinity in God who all share the same substance (Divinity or love) and are three persons because each is pouring themselves competely to the other and receiving love completely from another.



To be blunt, so what. The concept serves no useful purpose,
except perhaps to confuse the rabble. Would the religion
suffer if the Trinity concept disappeared? How could it, nobody
knows what its purpose or meaning is.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 6:55:34 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

love love HocusPocus .. Trinity.



Yes, thats exactly what the Trinity is, hocus pocus. Its
the speech patent medicine salesmen give to sell their
stuff. Nothing but hot air.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Mosca
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December 28th, 2011 at 6:58:42 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

You are not following me. My only point with celibacy was that it shows it is possible to live a fulfilled life through a relationship with Christ and without sexual activity. I don't know what you mean about elevating sex to a place of celibacy. I don't think celibacy has much to do with an elevated view of sex and sexuality. However, I do think that if we elevated our view of sex and controlled our sexuality then not just rape but many of the things I mentioned above would become less likely. This idea that sex is not a big deal and can be done just for fun without any lasting repercusions to anyone is just plain false. Sex is an amazing intimate and loving act, you should already be committed to that person in marriage and intimate emotionally and spritiually with the person. Sex has the power to bring forth life. You should not have sex with someone you do not want to have a baby with. I know that right now this view of sex is disconnected from the practical reality that exists out there, this is a huge problem and I could write for a very long time about this too.



You are not following me. What I'm saying is that....

Ahhhh, never mind. I'm bored with this again.
A falling knife has no handle.
FrGamble
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December 28th, 2011 at 7:29:38 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

love love HocusPocus .. Trinity.



Actually it is love love love...Trinity.
s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 7:52:29 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Actually it is love love love...Trinity.

You must love HocusPocus. Get your magical wand out and explain me this. God is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and has always been. Why do we need three of Them? One will do the trick. If He wants to forgive us for original sin then He only needs to forgive us for original sin. He doesn't need to carve off a piece of Himself and insert it into some nice lady in bronze age Israel just so that a piece of Himself can be executed some 34 years later.

Here's all God needs to do..
Quote: God

A serpent talked your mother ancestor into eating something that I told her not to eat. For that, I've commanded humans to step on serpent's heads for the rest of time (Genesis 3). Like I've done with a whole lot of other things, I've changed my mind. You're all forgiven for that! I've decided not to carve off a piece of myself because that just sounds stupid. Forgiveness is unconditional and by the way, I've cured epilepsy as an added bonus. Now be about your business. Oh, and by the way, I already know what you want for Christmas so don't bother praying for it. I'm really not that interested.

And that's it. No HocusPocus, no murdering fig trees, no four horsemen threatening apocalypses. We win, God wins, it's a mitzvah!
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
FrGamble
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December 28th, 2011 at 7:54:59 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

No, its not. The word Trinity in not in the Bible.
The concepts of father, son and holy spirit are
mentioned seperately, nowhere are they connected.
Please provide verses where they are. A real Bible,
a real translation from Greek.



First of all I'm not sure why all the three persons of the Holy Trinity have to be mentioned together like in the verses below for the concept of the Trinity to be Biblical? Jesus obviously speaks often of the Father and often of the Spirit, taken together a clear picture of the Trinity emerges. This has always been the faith of the Church. The Didache speakes of it in 70 AD and it is obviously a big part of both the Apostles and Nicence Creeds. Anyway here are a couple of verses:

The first one that comes to mind is of course the great commission (Mt. 28:19) "Go therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Paul's salutation in 2Cor 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you."



Quote: EvenBob


To be blunt, so what. The concept serves no useful purpose,
except perhaps to confuse the rabble. Would the religion
suffer if the Trinity concept disappeared? How could it, nobody
knows what its purpose or meaning is.



Yes the religion would suffer greatly without the Trinity. There is great meaning wrapped up in the mystery of the Trinity. God reveals Himself as Trinity to show us that He is love. There was never a time when God, who has always exisited, was not love and of course love needs an object if it is not to be pride. The inner nature of God is a community of persons loving each other so completely that they cannot be separated, the three are one. This also gives us the mystery of the Trinity that the Son became incarnate taking on human flesh and yet is still intimately united with the Father and Holy Spirit. As I've already said being made in the image and likeness of God takes on new meaning for us as humanity when we understand God to be a communion of love.
FrGamble
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December 28th, 2011 at 8:05:51 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Here's all God needs to do..

Quote: God



A serpent talked your mother ancestor into eating something that I told her not to eat. For that, I've commanded humans to step on serpent's heads for the rest of time (Genesis 3). Like I've done with a whole lot of other things, I've changed my mind. You're all forgiven for that! I've decided not to carve off a piece of myself because that just sounds stupid. Forgiveness is unconditional and by the way, I've cured epilepsy as an added bonus. Now be about your business. Oh, and by the way, I already know what you want for Christmas so don't bother praying for it. I'm really not that interested.


And that's it. No HocusPocus, no murdering fig trees, no four horsemen threatening apocalypses. We win, God wins, it's a mitzvah!



Doesn't sound like a bad plan you mention. My only thought is that God wants to be closer to us than that. What you describe sounds exactly like the old wave your magic wand and make it happen God. It is obvious that God for some reason wants to be more intimate and share in our lives in a deeper way than just staying up in the clouds and saying, "hocus pocus...there all is better...on you go." This also means that God feels a need to share even in our suffering so that when we go through the difficulties of life God knows what we are talking about. It seems to me that there might be something in the old adage that we really don't know or love someone unless we have shared the good AND the bad times with them. It sure would make theology classes a little easier if it happened the way you described but I don't think I would be interested in studying about or even knowing such a hands off and distant God.
s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 8:06:27 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

There was never a time when God, who has always exisited, was not love and of course love needs an object if it is not to be pride. The inner nature of God is a community of persons loving each other so completely that they cannot be separated, the three are one.

Did God love the Amalekites too?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 8:36:37 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The first one that comes to mind is of course the great commission (Mt. 28:19) "Go therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."



Please, everybody knows that passage is a complete fraud.

Trinity

Quote: FrGamble

God reveals Himself as Trinity to show us that He is love. There was never a time when God, who has always exisited, was not love and of course love needs an object if it is not to be pride. The inner nature of God is a community of persons loving each other so completely that they cannot be separated, the three are one. .



What? Huh? Boogity Boogity has as much meaning as what
you just said. Anything you say about the Trinity is true because
it has no meaning on its own. That was the point of it in the
first place.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
s2dbaker
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December 28th, 2011 at 8:38:57 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

It is obvious that God for some reason wants to be more intimate and share in our lives in a deeper way than just staying up in the clouds and saying, "hocus pocus...there all is better...on you go."

It's not obvious to me, please explain. It makes no sense at all to me that an omnipotent, omnipresent everlasting being would "want" at all.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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December 28th, 2011 at 8:45:00 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

It makes no sense at all to me that an omnipotent, omnipresent everlasting being would "want" at all.



Thats the difference between Western and Eastern religion.
In the Eastern religions, the gods don't have human desires
and human faults. They simply exist. Western religions are
like a never ending soap opera.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RogerKint
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December 28th, 2011 at 9:34:38 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Did God love the Amalekites too?



Great question. If you ever have time read Genesis 6, especially the part where fallen angels (demons) start having sex with human women (the one page book of Jude also mentions this). Their hybrid children are giants (this includes the infamous goliath, from David vs goliath). I read somewhere that the Amelikites (among other "ites" from the Bible) were direct descendants or part of this hybrid race. Sounds crazy and would be hard for anyone to believe but provides a theory why Judeo-Christian God would be intolerant of such races.
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FrGamble
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December 29th, 2011 at 6:39:00 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Please, everybody knows that passage is a complete fraud.

Trinity



I pretty much stopped reading the article when it said Emperor Constatine who died in 337 AD wrote a line in the Latin Vulgate which St. Jerome was first commissioned to put it together in 387 AD. I've also already quoted 2Cor 13:14, then there is Heb. 9:14, and if you don't like Matthew's Great Commission how about reading John 20:21-22. I think you passed over the Baptism scene of Jesus far to quickly and dismissed it as an image of the Trinity for unknown reasons. I also think I need to understand more about why we need to see verses like the ones above where all three persons are mentioned and not also list the many, many times in which Jesus speaks about the Father and the Holy Spirit individually as evidence for the Holy Trinity?
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