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FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 6th, 2011 at 4:14:32 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I have to admit, the so called 'sacrifice' is the weakest part
of Christianity to me.



The Sacrifice of Jesus is the strongest part of Christianity to me.

God cannot suffer or sacrifice without freely willing it, this alone makes his suffering, which He freely accepted, greater than the suffering unwillingly thrust upon us by the broken world in which we live. He willingly suffered and died for us motivated by nothing other than a perfect and unconditional love for every human person. His suffering and sacrifice was done to forgive all sin, therefore the one without sin takes upon Himself all the sins of the whole world. Along with carrying that cross He carried all the sins you, me, and everyone would ever commit.

In my opinion this makes His suffering and sacrificial death the most powerful action ever in the history of humanity.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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November 6th, 2011 at 4:55:18 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Along with carrying that cross He carried all the sins you, me, and everyone would ever commit.
In my opinion this makes His suffering and sacrificial death the most powerful action ever in the history of humanity.



This all sounds really good, but there's not a shred of evidence its true.
I have much more respect for the soldier that sacrifices his life by throwing
himself on a live grenade to save his friends. Jesus sacrificed nothing more
than than the soldier did, and we have actual proof the soldier did good thru
his actions, he saved many of his comrades. The good Jesus did is only after
the fact speculation, based on a lot of wishful thinking.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Nareed
Nareed
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November 6th, 2011 at 6:06:58 PM permalink
Quote: Scotty71

Nothing to argue but I apologize.



Thank you. That's very gracious.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
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November 9th, 2011 at 3:45:51 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The Sacrifice of Jesus is the strongest part of Christianity to me.

God cannot suffer or sacrifice without freely willing it, this alone makes his suffering, which He freely accepted, greater than the suffering unwillingly thrust upon us by the broken world in which we live. He willingly suffered and died for us motivated by nothing other than a perfect and unconditional love for every human person. His suffering and sacrifice was done to forgive all sin, therefore the one without sin takes upon Himself all the sins of the whole world. Along with carrying that cross He carried all the sins you, me, and everyone would ever commit.

In my opinion this makes His suffering and sacrificial death the most powerful action ever in the history of humanity.



And to think that "greater works than [His] shall [we] also do" (from John 14:12)
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
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November 9th, 2011 at 4:07:16 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Since the Pope is considered Vicar Christi ("regent of Christ") on earth, is there really any spiritual or moral difference between the Pope opening the Special Box and Christ opening it? Is the Box effectively the Council of Propagation of the Faith (i.e., the Inquisition forces), which could compel confessions of penitence and faith upon pain of death, thereby making people "believers"?



Actually, I was trying to tweak the idea that even if God gave some physical evidence that could do something extraordinary...but forbade its examination, then true believers, based on claims of faith, don't need it anyway.

It's similar to the idea that if someone claims to invent a perpetual motion machine. If you already say you have total faith in the claims of his perpetual motion machine, you don't need any further evidence, even if the inventor says you can't have full access to examination of the machine.

Christians are similar to believers of perpetual motion machines who have enough evidence to act as if it is all true.



Actually perpetual motion machines are forbidden by the Laws of Thermodynamics, which all sides of a debate like this one agree are absolutely valid. So, any Christian who is like the believer in the perpetual motion machine is a piss-poor apologist for his faith. Furthermore, Jesus never forbade Thomas the evidence he needed to be convinced of the Resurrection. Is Thomas' subsequent prostrate confession, "My Lord and My God", then, invalid? Also, I am not familiar with God forbidding any who wish to prove any of his claims from doing so. It is interesting how quickly those who have the burden of proving their faith-based moral propositions positively to skeptics (as is the apologetic's duty) like to point out the supposed "supremacy of faith over reason".

Maybe I should just take it on faith that my God told me to steal from and murder a dignitary, and knowing the supremacy of My God's ways (moral, political, artistic, etc.) over my ways (Isaiah 55:9) should make me not even think of questioning my urge and moral resolve, out of abject obedience to My God and certainty that only from Him could such moral certainty proceed. Would I not then also be like the believer in the Creator of the perpetual motion machine who abandons his knowledge of all reality because someone charasmatic, with Shekinah all around Him, made an outrageous and counter-intuitive claim?
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
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November 9th, 2011 at 4:54:44 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Christians are similar to believers of perpetual motion machines who have enough evidence to act as if it is all true.



Christians are like these are like believers in perpetual motion machines who have the certitude (not certainty) to act as if it's all true. The Second Vatican Council was really like a big Star Trek convention - folklore, role-playing, and all.
FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 9th, 2011 at 9:54:09 AM permalink
When people say faith is superior to reason, or vice versa, they are often mistaken about the nature of faith and reason. Faith is an act of our reason. Faith divorced from reason is a very dangerous thing and deserves a different name like superstition or 'blind faith'. Reason without faith is an oxymoron but it might be used to try to describe living and determining our decisions based only on scientifically proven evidence. This is not only impossible, but it is not utlilizing the true power of our human reason, which is meant to take all types of evidence and facts and come to new knowledge based on combining and extrapolating from them. This is how reason helps us as humans fly high and reach new heights. Faith is using reason as the fuel to launch human knowledge into outer space!
Mosca
Mosca
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November 9th, 2011 at 10:11:00 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Reason without faith is an oxymoron but it might be used to try to describe living and determining our decisions based only on scientifically proven evidence. This is not only impossible, but it is not utlilizing the true power of our human reason, which is meant to take all types of evidence and facts and come to new knowledge based on combining and extrapolating from them. This is how reason helps us as humans fly high and reach new heights. Faith is using reason as the fuel to launch human knowledge into outer space!



I'll give you a lot of latitude, FrG, but I think you're wrong here. You are intentionally conflating the small definition of faith with Faith. You can make a better argument I think.
NO KILL I
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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November 9th, 2011 at 10:12:45 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The advantage play is religion. Religion is about believing in a strategy that has been shown to be helpful to billions of people. Religion is more like counting cards (never thought I would write that in my life;). It is a reasonable way to deal with life without giving in to the idea that life is complete randomness and can't be understood or made sense of.


Several questions and comments:
a) What's wrong with the idea that life is complete randomness?
b) I disagree that the premise that life is complete randomness necessarily implies that life cannot be understood or made sense of. Humanity, through rational inquiry, is making more sense of life every day. Just the other day we discovered some new facts about the earliest recorded supernova (observed by Chinese astronomers in 185 A.D.)
c) I wouldn't necessarily equate religion to card counting. Card counters routinely get thrown out of casinos.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 9th, 2011 at 1:32:07 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I'll give you a lot of latitude, FrG, but I think you're wrong here. You are intentionally conflating the small definition of faith with Faith. You can make a better argument I think.



I was just trying to play off the Star Trek comment. I believe Faith in its true sense can take us to places no man has been before. The act of reasoning is taking what we know and reaching new conclusions based on them. Faith does just that. It takes what we know about this wonderful world and our amazing human nature and through a process of reasoning leads us to conclusions about the big questions in life. We would have no way of reaching this final frontier without the power of Faith, which is a reasonable judgement based on evidence and truths that leads us to the things man would have no access to if it was not through the act of reason we call Faith.

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