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Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 8:33:34 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The word of the day is casamiento, which means wedding. What I'm really trying to do is show this as an example of turning a verb into a noun. In this case casar means to marry. Adding miento changes it to the noun that happens as a result of the verb -- a marriage.



Just to confuse thigns a little more "caZar" means "to hunt"

Quote:

Si quejas el pelo en la sopa tendrá un enfrentamiento con el jefe = If you complain about the hair in the soup then you will have a confrontation with the boss.



that's good, but not consistent with the pronoun used. The correct usage is "tendráS un enfrentamiento...."

Quote:

Question for the advanced Spanish speakers: What is the difference between a casamiento and a boda?



beats me (now officially my favorite phrase for this thread, I should think). "Casamiento" is not used much. "Boda" means the wedding ceremony and reception, but also other related events or things. For example, the wedding night is "la noche de bodas" I don't know why it's used in plural. The honeymoon is called "Luna de miel," but it can be called "viaje de bodas," not very often, though. A bridal gown is called "vestido de novia," but taken along with the accesories, in aprticular those used in Catholic ceremonies, it's called "ajuar de boda."
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September 22nd, 2011 at 9:12:32 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

"Casamiento" is not used much. "Boda" means the wedding ceremony and reception, but also other related events or things. For example, the wedding night is "la noche de bodas" I don't know why it's used in plural. The honeymoon is called "Luna de miel," but it can be called "viaje de bodas," not very often, though. A bridal gown is called "vestido de novia," but taken along with the accesories, in aprticular those used in Catholic ceremonies, it's called "ajuar de boda."



Gracías. Aprendí mucho palabras de bodas en Univision durante de la Boda Real en Ingletera.
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pacomartin
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September 22nd, 2011 at 10:41:34 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

What I'm really trying to do is show this as an example of turning a verb into a noun. In this case casar means to marry. Adding miento changes it to the noun that happens as a result of the verb -- a marriage.



The equivalence of Spanish suffix -miento, and English suffix -ment is usually highlighted in every Spanish book. In English "imprisonment" is a way to make a noun out of the verb "to imprison".

I have noticed how few times that "google translate" actually translates the words this way. As there are over a thousand English words that end in -ment I will demonstrated with a small subset that begins with the letter b. Out of 50 words the "miento" suffix was used only once.

English Spanish
betterment mejoramiento
bedazzlement deslumbramiento
befuddlement desconcierto
bewilderment desconcierto
bafflement desconcierto
banishment destierro
basement sótano
battlement almena
bereavement duelo
bedevilment afección maligna
belittlement menosprecio
besiegement asedio
bewitchment brujería
blandishment halago
bombardment bombardeo
babblement balbuceo
bailment comodato
balancement balanceo


The Google software did not translate the following words at all. However, to be fair, most of these words are very obscure in English as well.
baptizement batement bedizenment befriendment beguilement benightment benumbment bequeathment beseechment besetment bestowment betrayment betrothment betrustment bevelment bewailment bewrayment bickerment biliment bisegment blastment blazonment blemishment bodement bouleversement brabblement branglement bushment butment

The number of translations where the words are clearly cognates was actually very few
accompaniment - acompañamiento
displacement - desplazamiento
enchantment - encantamiento


A significant number of translations used the ción suffix


excitement - emoción
bedevilment - afección maligna
endowment - dotación
attachment - fijación
encroachment - invasión
measurement - medición
mismeasurement - medición errónea
abolishment - abolición
arraignment - acusación
impeachment - acusación
indictment - acusación
annulment - anulación
catchment - captación
disappointment - decepción

...
overexcitement - sobreexcitación
involvement - la participación de
disestablishment - desestabilización
agistment - régimen de pensión
mismanagement - mala administración
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 11:12:18 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I have noticed how few times that "google translate" actually translates the words this way. As there are over a thousand English words that end in -ment I will demonstrated with a small subset that begins with the letter b. Out of 50 words the "miento" suffix was used only once.



I'll reiterate that machine translation is a very long way from reliable yet, even when using single words or terms.

I won't delve into quoting a table, but some of the words you got from Google could be used as actions follows:

Desconcertamiento
Menospreciamiento

And others you didn't use like:

Desconocimiento

Quote:

The Google software did not translate the following words at all. However, to be fair, most of these words are very obscure in English as well.
baptizement



That's odd. The words is Bautismo and it's very common in Catholic-majority Spanish speaking countries, which is to say all of them.
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September 22nd, 2011 at 11:58:01 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

That's odd. The words is Bautismo and it's very common in Catholic-majority Spanish speaking countries, which is to say all of them.



When I worked as a Social Security claims representative in Huntington Park we used Mexican baptism certificates as proof of age often. We called them a baptismo. Most Mexican-born claimants did not have a birth certificate. This would have been for those born in the late twenties.
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pacomartin
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September 22nd, 2011 at 12:23:34 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

That's odd. The words is Bautismo and it's very common in Catholic-majority Spanish speaking countries, which is to say all of them.



Google translates
English baptize to Spanish bautizar
English baptizing to Spanish bautismo
English baptized to Spanish bautizado
Spanish baptismo to English baptism

But it does not translate baptisement

I think the difference is that the word "baptizein" was originally Greek, which was translated into Latin and into Spanish and English.

The -miento suffix in Spanish is the equivalent of the English suffix -ment. They both come from the Latin -mentum and are suffixes generally used to turn verbs into nouns.

Because the word was originally Greek it didn't have the Latin -mentum. English follows the paradigm, but Spanish doesn't recognize the ending because it didn't exist in Latin.

These other words were Latin originally, and they are all translated to the same paradigm
movement - movimiento
lineament - lineamiento
lodgement - alojamiento
sentiment - sentimiento
treatment - tratamiento
enlistment - alistamiento
entrapment - atrapamiento
impalement - empalamiento
ordainment - ordenamiento
refinement - refinamiento
settlement - asentamiento
confinement - confinamiento
emplacement - emplazamiento
enchantment - encantamiento
entablement - entablamiento
recruitment - reclutamiento
reinforcement - reforzamiento
resentment - resentimiento
accompaniment - acompañamiento
compartment - compartimiento
comportment - comportamiento
discernment - discernimiento
displacement - desplazamiento
empowerment - empoderamiento
embellishment - embellecimiento
ennoblement - ennoblecimiento
enrichment - enriquecimiento
entertainment - entretenimiento
establishment - establecimiento
impoverishment - empobrecimiento
nonalignment - no-alineamiento
establishment - establecimiento

I put over a thousand English words with the "-ment" suffix into Google Translate and about half of them did not translate to anything different in Spanish.
About 11% translated to a Spanish word with the "-ción" suffix, and only 10% translated to a Spanish word with "-miento" suffix. Only 4% were like the above examples, where it was basically the same word with slight spelling variations.
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 12:31:04 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Google translates
English baptize to Spanish bautizar
English baptizing to Spanish bautismo
English baptized to Spanish bautizado
Spanish baptismo to English baptism

But it does not translate baptisement



I'd translate the second as "bautizando," which would be the act of performing a baptism, or having one performed on yourself (however that goes). the rest seem ok. But in Mexico "Baptismo" is not commonly sued. People say "Bautismo" instead.

BTW the whole mess of words also means "christening" or "to christen" as in the ceremonies held when naming ships and wasting champagne.

Anyway, the word "baptisment" which if I'm right could be used in such phrases as "certificate of baptisement," does translate as "bautismo" as in "certificado de bautismo" assuming such documents even exist. It's a Gentile thing, after all.
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pacomartin
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September 22nd, 2011 at 12:57:10 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I'll reiterate that machine translation is a very long way from reliable yet, even when using single words or terms.



I don't think it will ever be reliable. Google Translate is a statistical translator, but their corpus (documents they used to make translations) are mostly European Union documents. So they tend to err toward European Spanish. Also they are official documents which are short on slang or newspaper style articles.

But rule based translations are often worse, and can be difficult in class-work. It seems like you learn a rule, and then you spend the next month learning exceptions.

For example the word dear is from an Anglo Saxon adjective that means "precious"
In English the word endear is a verb that means to "make more precious".
So the English word endearment is a noun that means "action or gift expressive of love"

But the word has no Latin origin. So there is no reason that Spanish would use the suffix "-miento" in the translation. The Spanish translation is cariño.

So the rule that English suffix "-ment" is equivalent to "-miento" only applies about 10% of the time. The rule is actually that English suffix "-ment" is equivalent to "-miento" in only the cases where the base word comes from a Latin word that uses the suffix "-mentum".
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 2:48:49 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I don't think it will ever be reliable.



It has to be. So much of science fiction depends on it :)

Quote:

But rule based translations are often worse, and can be difficult in class-work. It seems like you learn a rule, and then you spend the next month learning exceptions.



That's why there's no substitute for practice and understanding. It's tough going at first, but in the end you gain fluency as good as any native's.

Quote:

For example the word dear is from an Anglo Saxon adjective that means "precious"
In English the word endear is a verb that means to "make more precious".
So the English word endearment is a noun that means "action or gift expressive of love"

But the word has no Latin origin. So there is no reason that Spanish would use the suffix "-miento" in the translation. The Spanish translation is cariño.



For which word? Dear, endear or endearment?

I'd say it goes in order like this: Cariño, encariñar, encariñamiento. The last word sounds ok, but I've never heard it used.
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pacomartin
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September 22nd, 2011 at 5:16:12 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

For which word? Dear, endear or endearment?

I'd say it goes in order like this: Cariño, encariñar, encariñamiento. The last word sounds ok, but I've never heard it used.



Google Translate proposes:
endearment - cariño | ternura
endear - hacerse querer | congraciarse
dear - Queridos | Estimado

The last word must mean in the sense that "I paid dearly for the watch".

encariñamiento is translated as "grown fondly of" by Google

------------------------------------

The average vocabulary of an educated native English speaker is about 24,000 to 30,000. Shakespeare used 24,000 words - 1,700 of which he is claimed to have invented. I assume it is roughly the same for an educated Spanish speaker.

The latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary contains more than 300,000 head words, and some 615,000 "word forms," that include the head words, plus combinations and derivatives. It is generally acknowledged that the number of English words now exceed 1 million. Spanish linguists say there are 225,000 words in contemporary use.

In English, of course, I can tell if there is a dictionary word that you wouldn't normally use. In a previous post I referred to the word vastitude which is a legitimate English word, but not one that I have ever heard anyone ever use.

But encariñamiento is not in the RAE. I suspect that Google translate is just making their best guess.

Because the teaching of English is so common, there are limited vocabularies that are published. The Voice of America Special English uses roughly a 1500 word vocabulary. Oxford publishes the Oxford 3000 to encourage all programs to have a common base vocabulary. Although there are plenty of short lists of Spanish words, I never saw an official list.
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 5:20:06 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Google Translate proposes:



I'm not going to argue with a machine translator over a human intermediary. if Google has something to say to me, it can email me. :)

Quote:

encariñamiento is translated as "grown fondly of" by Google



That's what it would mean if it were a real word. "Encariñar" means to grow fond of"
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September 23rd, 2011 at 7:59:09 AM permalink
Fecha: 23 de Septíembre 2011
Palabra: PESCAR


I think many Gringos at least know that pescar means to fish. It is obviously related to pescado = fish (as a noun) and pescadero = fisherman.

However, pescar can also mean to catch. Not necessarily fish, but anything. We also see in English usage of the verb fish to catch things besides fish. For example, after a breakup a common expression of consejo (advice) is "there are a lot more fish in the sea." Some people have been known to fish for compliments. Even Jesus said he would make is disciples "fishers of men."

Ejemplo time.

El pescó una buena esposa = He caught a good wife. (corrected)
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Nareed
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September 23rd, 2011 at 8:11:44 AM permalink
For the record your presentation and explanation of today's word were very good. But then:

Quote: Wizard

El pescó un buen esposa = He caught a good wife.



"El pescó unA buenA esposa."

You might as well declare all-out war on the gender of nouns :)

Anyway, another related word in English is catch. Fresh fish for sale are referred to as "catch of the day," and a good marital propsect is seen as "a good catch."

Oh, consuelo doesn't mean advice. That's "consejo." "Consuelo" means "console," as in to alleviate or assuage grief, sorrow or emotional pain and suffering.

So:

Pescar = to fish, to catch
Consolar = to console
Aconsejar = to advice
Consejo = advice or counsel


And related phonetically and orthographically:

Concejo = Council
Conejo = Rabbit
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September 23rd, 2011 at 8:16:50 AM permalink
Thanks for all the corrections. Not my best day. I give myself a D+. I wonder what FrGamble would give me as a penitencia = penance?
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September 23rd, 2011 at 8:23:19 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks for all the corrections. Not my best day. I give myself a D+.



You're welcome.

I'd give you a B+, actually, since you used the word of the day correctly and you exlpained it well. The only failing was in the nouns, which we know are a cronic problem.

On the ancillary word "consuelo" you made a mistake, but I'd give you points for trying to use more Spanish in the explanation. Besides it was close.
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pacomartin
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September 23rd, 2011 at 8:33:47 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks for all the corrections. Not my best day. I give myself a D+. I wonder what FrGamble would give me as a penitencia = penance?



I think he would go light on you. He would require you to go to Jerry's Nugget for the night to practice your Spanish on some Mexicans.


According to the 2004 American Community Survey from the United States Census Bureau, 1 in 5 Nevadans can speak Spanish.
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September 23rd, 2011 at 8:49:22 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I think he would go light on you. He would require you to go to Jerry's Nugget for the night to practice your Spanish on some Mexicans.



To be honest, I'm tempted to go anyway. I don't think my wife would buy that a priest made me go.

I can honestly say I understood every word on that seña.
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September 23rd, 2011 at 8:52:39 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

However, pescar can also mean to catch.



Keep in mind that this definition is colloquial
1. To fish
2. tr. coloq. Contraer una dolencia o enfermedad.
3. tr. coloq. Coger, agarrar o tomar cualquier cosa.
4. tr. coloq. Coger a alguien en las palabras o en los hechos, cuando no lo esperaba, o sin prevención.
5. tr. coloq. Lograr o conseguir astutamente lo que se pretendía o anhelaba.
6. tr. coloq. Entender, captar con rapidez el significado de algo.

Personally, it looks like dangerous territory with wide room for misinterpretation. Coger is almost universally understood in Argentina for it's sexual connotations. There is a colloquial definition (#2) of contracting a disease. Also the concept of "Catching on" (#5) or understanding quickly and easily. It sounds like you could intend to say something benign, and accidentally end up being insulting or crude.

I have no idea how you would use "pescar" in keeping with the 5th definition. Maybe Nareed can help. But it sounds like you get what you want, by any means necessary.

The third defintion reminds of upper management's reaction to auditors sent from congress. We were always told to answer questions in very short sentence, or to replay back in writing to their questions. The auditors were said to "going on a fishing trip".
Nareed
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September 23rd, 2011 at 9:19:07 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

To be honest, I'm tempted to go anyway. I don't think my wife would buy that a priest made me go.



Would she buy that you're reviewing it for your website?

You would review it, yes ? :)

Quote:

I can honestly say I understood every word on that seña.



If you mean the poster Paco (the happy illustrator) linked to, then it's a "cartel" with the unwritten accent in the last syllable, or "poster," or "anuncio." The alst means "ad"
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September 23rd, 2011 at 10:40:18 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Would she buy that you're reviewing it for your website?

You would review it, yes ? :)



Skepticism is subtly expressed every time I leave the house for allegedly business reasons. It was not even subtle with my trip back east last week. I admit that in my world the lines between business and pleasure are sometimes blurry, but give me some credit for finding a fun job for myself.

Indeed, I would write about it. Perhaps as an overall review of Jerry's Nugget. It doesn't appear on the hotel list, because there is no hotel component to it.
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Nareed
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September 23rd, 2011 at 12:09:26 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Skepticism is subtly expressed every time I leave the house for allegedly business reasons. It was not even subtle with my trip back east last week. I admit that in my world the lines between business and pleasure are sometimes blurry, but give me some credit for finding a fun job for myself.



I dind't mean to rock the boat. Sorry. I will refrain from making more comments, except to say that indeed I do give you credit for just that.
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pacomartin
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September 23rd, 2011 at 2:01:08 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Indeed, I would write about it. Perhaps as an overall review of Jerry's Nugget. It doesn't appear on the hotel list, because there is no hotel component to it.



Columnist Hal Rothman: On how the Las Vegas Valley will inevitably become a predominantly Spanish-speaking community was written on Christmas 2005 quoting the census report on ethnicity. He says: Latinos are the future. Their population has grown so quickly that the town, like the nation, is only beginning to recognize its significance, much less come to grips with it. That oblivious attitude does not change reality: after Miami and Los Angeles, Las Vegas will become the third American city to overwhelmingly speak Spanish. Feliz Navidad.

The article says that the Latino population of Clark County jumped from 85,000 in 1990 to more than 375,000 in 2004. The 2010 census says 568,644 or 29% of the county. Nevada Latino population is at 716,501. Since each of the four congressional districts will be 675,000 there may be a strong attempt to create a Latino majority congressional district. For the last election the three districts were 20%, 23%, and 37% (#1).

The Latino population in the City of Las Vegas is 31.5% (but as you know the population is very different depending on which ward you live in).Paradise is 31.2%; the City of North Las Vegas is 38.8%; Whitney is 36.2%; Winchester is 44.6%; and Sunrise Manor is 48.5%.

Henderson City remains only 14.9% Latino, Summerlin South a mere 8.6%, and Boulder city 7.1%.

I think you should have one place on your website where gambling and Latino culture very clearly mix.
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September 23rd, 2011 at 3:23:29 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I think you should have one place on your website where gambling and Latino culture very clearly mix.



As you know, I'm working on a Spanish version of my Odds site. If that does well, perhaps I'll do a Spanish version of this one as well.
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September 23rd, 2011 at 7:04:11 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

And related phonetically and orthographically:

Concejo = Council



Back on topic, no one's called me on this. I goofed. "conCejo" with a "c" is a Spanish word, but it doens't mean "Council." The dictionary isn't very helpful, but ti seems to refer to a council held at the city or town level. It also gives a circualr definition: Concejo .- Sesión celebrada por los individuos de un concejo. Translation: Session held by the individuals of a concejo.

Really, what kind of dictionary does that?

Anyway, "conSejo" with an "s" does mean advice, but it also means "council."

Curiously, a councilman or councilwoman is called "conCejal" in Spanish. It does mean "member of a council." So why isn't "conCejo" the word for council?

This is the kind of dilemma that can keep me up all of six seconds...
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September 23rd, 2011 at 10:01:06 PM permalink
I knew already knew that consejo = advice. I figured it was just a typo. As I recall, in another post you said you were annoyed with typo corrections.
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September 23rd, 2011 at 10:08:12 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I knew already knew that consejo = advice. I figured it was just a typo. As I recall, in another post you said you were annoyed with typo corrections.



They seem to bring on Freudian slips, don't they? :)

I'm not annoyed, but I make so many you'd have time for nothing else if you were to correct all of mine. In any case, I made a mistake on "concejo" vis a vis "consejo" as council, it wasn't a typo.
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September 25th, 2011 at 9:57:58 AM permalink
Fecha: 25 de Septíembre, 2011
Palabra: Engatusar


Today's word, engatusar=coax/sweet-talk, perhaps in a deceptive way.

This should not be confused with engañar, which is a stronger word, and means "cheat."

Ejemplo time.

Chicas bonitas se puede engatusar los hombres con tanta facilidad. = Pretty girls can sweet-talk men with such ease.
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September 25th, 2011 at 10:24:10 AM permalink
Oy vey! that's Yiddish...

Quote: Wizard

This should not be confused with engañar, which is a stronger word, and means "cheat."



Engañar means to fool or to deceive. there's no verb in Spnaish meaning to cheat. The noun for cheat is "trampa," which can also mean trap. If you want to say "cheating" in Spanish you need to make use of the noun and a verb. For example:

Lo agarraron haciendo trampa en el casino = He was caught cheating at the casino.

If you mean cheating as in having an affair, then you have the right meaning. Example:

La engaña con otra = He cheats on her with another woman.


Quote:

Ejemplo time.

Chicas bonitas se puede engatusar los hombres con tanta facilidad. = Pretty girls can sweet-talk men with such ease.



Pretty good. I'd change it to:

Las chicas bonitas puedeN engatusar A los hombres con tanta facilidad

The use of "se" is superfluous and confuses the meaning.
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pacomartin
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September 25th, 2011 at 11:17:50 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: 25 de Septíembre, 2011
Palabra: Engatusar


Today's word, engatusar=coax/sweet-talk, perhaps in a deceptive way.

This should not be confused with engañar, which is a stronger word, and means "cheat."

Ejemplo time.

Chicas bonitas se puede engatusar los hombres con tanta facilidad. = Pretty girls can sweet-talk men with such ease.




These words have some of the most unusual etymologies of any encountered so far.

Engatusar comes from the Spanish verb engatar which literally means to behave in a manner like a gatto, but according to the RAE colloquial meaning is engañar halagando.
The gerund "halagando" is the -ing form "to flatter" or flattering.

The English word "cheat" has a very idiosyncratic "etymology" and it is not surprising that it was not repeated in Spanish. It comes from the Old French word escheat which means property of an owner who dies without an heir or a last will and testament. The noun escheat comes from the Old French verb escheoir which means "to befall by chance" which comes from Latin root *excadere or "to fall away," from Latin ex- "out" + cadere "to fall" . Cadere also gives us the common Spanish verb "caer" which means "to fall" and "caerse" or the reflextive verb which means "to fall away".

When an owner who dies without an heir, the court officers who determine how the property should be disposed had a huge reputation for dishonesty. So the French word for this property, "escheat", eventually spawned the English verb "cheat" with it's present day meaning. The verb has only been used in the sense of "to cheat on your spouse" since the 1930's.
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September 25th, 2011 at 1:33:09 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Oy vey! that's Yiddish...



I knew that. I've been known to just say Oy! once in a while.

Quote: Nareed

there's no verb in Spnaish meaning to cheat. The noun for cheat is "trampa," which can also mean trap.



Interesting. That is a very common word in English. If someone where to use trampar as the verb for cheat would the meaning be understood? Por ejemplo: Yo gano porque yo trampando.

Quote: Nareed

The use of "se" is superfluous and confuses the meaning.



Se is another Spanish word that gives me a hard time. I find that Spanish texts often through them around superfluously, and I don't understand why. To myself I thought that if you're referring to a general group of people it is good form to throw in a se, but I guess not.


Quote: pacomartin

Engatusar comes from the Spanish verb engatar which literally means to behave in a manner like a gatto,



I like stuff like this. I assume you mean gato, with one t, i.e. a cat.

Quote: pacomartin

The verb gañar means "to win" and engañar means to bluff, mislead, deceive, and most dictionaries also translate as "cheat". But Nareed reminds us once again that dictionaries are a poor substitute for fluency in a language.



Do you think it could be said that by putting the en in front of ganar it makes it to win in a bad way? Kind of like infamous in English means famous for a bad thing.
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September 25th, 2011 at 2:20:54 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The verb gañar means "to win" and engañar means to bluff, mislead, deceive, and most dictionaries also translate as "cheat".



That's gaNar with an "n"not an "ñ" The verbs mey be related, but "gaÑar" isn't a word.

Quote:

But Nareed reminds us once again that dictionaries are a poor substitute for fluency in a language.



Dictionaries are very useful. What I've said is that it's more useful to look up a definition in a regular dictionary in the language you're learning, rather than using an English to Spanish (or other language) dictionary. the latter have their use, too, but one shouldn't depend on them.

An you should also always take note of how words are used, regardless of their dictionary meaning.
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September 25th, 2011 at 2:57:46 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I knew that. I've been known to just say Oy! once in a while.



Actually I only use it in print :)


Quote:

Interesting. That is a very common word in English. If someone where to use trampar as the verb for cheat would the meaning be understood? Por ejemplo: Yo gano porque yo trampando.



They might understand, but they'd laugh at you. For one thing, you just said "I win because I cheating."

Quote:

Se is another Spanish word that gives me a hard time. I find that Spanish texts often through them around superfluously, and I don't understand why. To myself I thought that if you're referring to a general group of people it is good form to throw in a se, but I guess not.



It indicates an action by a subject, or an action performed on an object (grammatically speaking). In your example it was superfluous and confusing. Here's a related example:

Se dejó engatusar por una chica guapa = He let himself be fooled by a good-looking girl.
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pacomartin
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September 25th, 2011 at 4:22:52 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I like stuff like this. I assume you mean gato, with one t, i.e. a cat.

Do you think it could be said that by putting the en in front of ganar it makes it to win in a bad way? Kind of like infamous in English means famous for a bad thing.



Yes of course I meant one 't'. I am spoiling my own comments.

Spanish uses the prefixes im- or in- to mean opposite: incapaz (incapable), inaudible (inaudible), inconformista (nonconformist) much like English.
capacitar verb to prepare, to qualify
incapacitar verb to incapacitate, to handicap


English has several uses for the prefix "in" and not just for negations. For example: inside, into, information, and intricate.

I am a little perplexed at how to explain the meaning of the prefix en-. I think it is similar to variety of English meanings like: "near, at in, on, within".

cantar v. to sing
encantar v. to enchant, to like very much, to love

cerrar v. to close
encerrar v. to confine

coger v. to grasp, to seize, to catch, to take, to grab
encoger v. to shorten, to shrink

cubrir v. to cover
encubrir v. to hide, to conceal, to mask

marcar v. to observe, to mark, to note
enmarcar v. to frame

sacar v. to get, to take out, to stick out, to take, to pull out, to take (photos), to extract, to withdraw
ensacar v. to put in a bag, to bag

tender v. to stretch, to extend, to offer
entender v. to understand

volver v. to go back, to return, to come back, to turn, to return (to a place)
envolver v. to wrap up


==========================
I did confuse ganar and the non existent word gañar. Sorry to mislead you.
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September 25th, 2011 at 4:36:12 PM permalink
Thanks Paco for the above. No further remark on that.

Getting back to the superfluous se, here is a sentence I just came across in a Spanish book I'm trying to get through:

Un payaso se rio y se unió a Ramona. = A clown laughed and joined Ramona.

Why do we need the two se's? It is obvious we're talking about the payaso, so the se does seem to be superfluous. As I mentioned before, I thought it was common to throw in a se when talking about a non-specific person. In this case the book doesn't say the name of the clown at any point. I should probably quit writing and just let one of the experts explain it. Thanks.
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September 25th, 2011 at 4:50:10 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Getting back to the superfluous se, here is a sentence I just came across in a Spanish book I'm trying to get through:

Un payaso se rio y se unió a Ramona. = A clown laughed and joined Ramona.

Why do we need the two se's? It is obvious we're talking about the payaso, so the se does seem to be superfluous.



Because the sentence describes two actions that apply to the clown. If you leave the second "se" out, so the sentence reads "Un payaso se rio y unió a Ramona." the literal English translation doesn't change, but the meaning does. In fact the sentence is incomplete, lacking an indirect object.

Let's back up. Unir means to join, but also to put two or more things together. So for example, a manual could state "Una las partes," meaning "put the parts together."

So the second "se" in the original sentence indicates the clown is joining someone. Otherwise you're saying "a clown laughed and put Ramona together." You'd expect more information, too, such as what or whom did he join Ramona to.

Ask your tutor. I don't think I can make this any clearer (which makes the unwarranted assumption to a degree of clarity)


As I mentioned before, I thought it was common to throw in a se when talking about a non-specific person. In this case the book doesn't say the name of the clown at any point. I should probably quit writing and just let one of the experts explain it. Thanks.

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September 25th, 2011 at 4:53:56 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

So the second "se" in the original sentence indicates the clown is joining someone. Otherwise you're saying "a clown laughed and put Ramona together." You'd expect more information, too, such as what or whom did he join Ramona to.



Thanks. I get it in this instance.
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September 25th, 2011 at 4:54:29 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Getting back to the superfluous se, here is a sentence I just came across in a Spanish book I'm trying to get through:



Google proposes three different translations for "He laughed and laughed":
(1) El se rió y se rió
(2) Él rió y se rió
(3) Se rió y se rió

The difference between (1) and (2) eludes me.
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September 25th, 2011 at 9:27:35 PM permalink
Fecha: 26 de Sep., 2011
Palabra: PISOTEAR


Today's word, pisotear = to trample on.

Has a strong ring to it. The kind of word I enjoy saying, like the German schadenfreude. I'm sure the experts can address this better, but it seems like the kind of word that there is no direct English equivalent. I like words like that.

Ejemplo time.

Soy muy sensible, entonces no pisotear mis sentimientos. = I'm very sensitive, so don't hurt my feelings.

Questions for the experts: Would you use pisotear in the context of stamping around with your feet. For example, if you wanted to tell a child to not play in your flower garden, might you use pisotear?
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September 26th, 2011 at 7:21:25 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Un payaso se rio y se unió a Ramona



Hola Wizard,
Hablando de Ramona, no se debe confundir Ramona Cabrera y ramera cabrona :)
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September 26th, 2011 at 7:57:42 AM permalink
Quote: Curious55

Hola Wizard,
Hablando de Ramona, no se debe confundir Ramona Cabrera y ramera cabrona :)



Ramera Cabrona.

Mi amor, ¿cuántas veces tengo que decirte que me llamo Ramona Cabrera?.
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September 26th, 2011 at 8:11:18 AM permalink
Quote: Curious55

Hola Wizard,
Hablando de Ramona, no se debe confundir Ramona Cabrera y ramera cabrona :)



I don't know who or what that is, but I was referring to a book about a girl named Ramona.
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September 26th, 2011 at 9:05:57 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I don't know who or what that is, but I was referring to a book about a girl named Ramona.



Es un chiste verde.

Note that Spanish tell Green jokes, while English tells blue jokes. The equivalent kind of humor in English would be the following joke. The Spanish joke is a little shorter and slightly more vulgar.

Quote: A Dog named Sex

When I went to City Hall to renew my dog's license I told the clerk I wanted a license for Sex. He said, "I'd like one too!" Then I said, "But this is a dog." He said he didn't care what she looked like. Then I said, "You don't understand. I've had Sex since I was nine years old." He winked at me and said, "You must have been quite a kid."

When I got married and went on my honeymoon I took my dog with me. I told the hotel clerk I wanted a room for my wife and myself, and a special room for Sex. He said, "You don't need a special room for Sex. As long as you pay your bill, we don't care what you do." I said, "Look, you don't seem to understand. Sex keeps me awake at night." The clerk said, "Funny, I have the same problem."

Well, one day I entered Sex in a contest but before the competition began the dog got loose and ran away. Another contestant asked me why I was just standing there looking disappointed. I told him I had planned to have Sex in the contest. He said, "Wonderful! If you sell tickets you'll clean up!" "But you don't understand", I said. "I want to have Sex on TV." He said, "They already have that on Cable. It's no big deal any more."

Well my wife and I decided to separate, so we went to court to fight for custody of the dog. I said to the judge, "Your Honor, I had Sex before I was married." The Judge said, "The courtroom is not a confessional. Please stick to the facts." Then I told him that after I was married Sex left me. He said, "Me too."

Well last night Sex ran away again, and I spent hours looking all over for him. A cop came over to me and asked, What are you doing in this alley at four o'clock in the morning?" I said, "I'm looking for Sex."

My case comes up soon.

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September 26th, 2011 at 9:54:43 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Soy muy sensible, entonces no pisotear mis sentimientos. = I'm very sensitive, so don't hurt my feelings.



You were doing well with verbs...

"Soy muy sendible, por favor no pisotEES mis sentimientos."

Quote:

Questions for the experts: Would you use pisotear in the context of stamping around with your feet. For example, if you wanted to tell a child to not play in your flower garden, might you use pisotear?



No. You'd tell the child "No pises las flores" = "Don't step on the flowers."

Pisotear means something more logn the lines of "to stomp" on something, or, as you noted, to trample something.
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September 26th, 2011 at 10:02:35 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I don't know who or what that is, but I was referring to a book about a girl named Ramona.



It's what passes for popular witty word play in Spanish. If it's not dirty it's not deemed funny. Usually it's vulgar, too.
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September 26th, 2011 at 1:37:09 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

It's what passes for popular witty word play in Spanish. If it's not dirty it's not deemed funny. Usually it's vulgar, too.


Well, in that youtube link that I gave above, she starts telling the joke around 3:00 and dlelivers the punchline about 3:40. It seems to break up the audience.
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September 26th, 2011 at 1:37:11 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

It's what passes for popular witty word play in Spanish. If it's not dirty it's not deemed funny. Usually it's vulgar, too.


Well, in that youtube link that I gave above, she starts telling the joke around 3:00 and dlelivers the punchline about 3:40. It seems to break up the audience.
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September 26th, 2011 at 2:47:52 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

You were doing well with verbs...

"Soy muy sendible, por favor no pisotEES mis sentimientos."



I should have got that. I thought that I already conjugated ser, so I didn't need to do it again, but I agree it hard to justify.

About that video, I watched about three minutes, but it went by too fast for me. Sounded like I heard montaña ruso in there towards the beginning.
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September 26th, 2011 at 3:09:50 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Well, in that youtube link that I gave above, she starts telling the joke around 3:00 and dlelivers the punchline about 3:40. It seems to break up the audience.



I can't watch youtube at work.

anyway, I'm sure it broke up the audience. That doens't change the vulgarity inherent in such jokes. and that's not even the problem. What bothers me is the tacit assumption that word play is not funny if it's not dirty and crude.

This seems to be something peculiar to mexico, though, as I've heard good, clean word play elsewhere, like:

"Cuando Mastropiero viajó a los Estados Unidos dispuesto a componer música para cine, dos hechos le produjeron fuerte impacto. El primero fué la imponencia de los estudios de Hollywood. Deciddio a triunfar, Mastropiero fué a la productora más importante de todas. Quería entrar por la puerta grande. La puerta grande estaba cerrada.... y ese fué el segundo impacto.

Mastropiero fué recibido, de cualquier manera.... Mastropiero fué recibido de cualquier manera."
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Curious55
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September 26th, 2011 at 11:38:34 PM permalink
Una pregunta:
"Porque la bola rueda ?"
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September 27th, 2011 at 2:44:37 AM permalink
Quote: Curious55

Hola,
Yes , Dia is masculine.

El dia, el planeta, el turista, el problema are masculine words ending in "a"
La mano is a feminine word ending by "o"

and ....

El agua is a feminine word needing.... El

:)))



Las palabras 'agua', 'arca', 'hambre', 'arpa' son diferente. Las palabras son feminina pero necesitan la palabra 'el' para la artículo.

Why is that Wizard? What gender are the following nouns?

a) el hombre
b) el hambre

Which of the following is correct?

a) los hombres
b) las hombres
c) los arpas
d) las arpas

Quote: Curious55

Una pregunta:
"Porque la bola rueda ?"


No sé. Porque?
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