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Nareed
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 8:33:34 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The word of the day is casamiento, which means wedding. What I'm really trying to do is show this as an example of turning a verb into a noun. In this case casar means to marry. Adding miento changes it to the noun that happens as a result of the verb -- a marriage.



Just to confuse thigns a little more "caZar" means "to hunt"

Quote:

Si quejas el pelo en la sopa tendrá un enfrentamiento con el jefe = If you complain about the hair in the soup then you will have a confrontation with the boss.



that's good, but not consistent with the pronoun used. The correct usage is "tendráS un enfrentamiento...."

Quote:

Question for the advanced Spanish speakers: What is the difference between a casamiento and a boda?



beats me (now officially my favorite phrase for this thread, I should think). "Casamiento" is not used much. "Boda" means the wedding ceremony and reception, but also other related events or things. For example, the wedding night is "la noche de bodas" I don't know why it's used in plural. The honeymoon is called "Luna de miel," but it can be called "viaje de bodas," not very often, though. A bridal gown is called "vestido de novia," but taken along with the accesories, in aprticular those used in Catholic ceremonies, it's called "ajuar de boda."
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Wizard
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Wizard
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September 22nd, 2011 at 9:12:32 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

"Casamiento" is not used much. "Boda" means the wedding ceremony and reception, but also other related events or things. For example, the wedding night is "la noche de bodas" I don't know why it's used in plural. The honeymoon is called "Luna de miel," but it can be called "viaje de bodas," not very often, though. A bridal gown is called "vestido de novia," but taken along with the accesories, in aprticular those used in Catholic ceremonies, it's called "ajuar de boda."



Gracías. Aprendí mucho palabras de bodas en Univision durante de la Boda Real en Ingletera.
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pacomartin
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September 22nd, 2011 at 10:41:34 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

What I'm really trying to do is show this as an example of turning a verb into a noun. In this case casar means to marry. Adding miento changes it to the noun that happens as a result of the verb -- a marriage.



The equivalence of Spanish suffix -miento, and English suffix -ment is usually highlighted in every Spanish book. In English "imprisonment" is a way to make a noun out of the verb "to imprison".

I have noticed how few times that "google translate" actually translates the words this way. As there are over a thousand English words that end in -ment I will demonstrated with a small subset that begins with the letter b. Out of 50 words the "miento" suffix was used only once.

English Spanish
betterment mejoramiento
bedazzlement deslumbramiento
befuddlement desconcierto
bewilderment desconcierto
bafflement desconcierto
banishment destierro
basement sótano
battlement almena
bereavement duelo
bedevilment afección maligna
belittlement menosprecio
besiegement asedio
bewitchment brujería
blandishment halago
bombardment bombardeo
babblement balbuceo
bailment comodato
balancement balanceo


The Google software did not translate the following words at all. However, to be fair, most of these words are very obscure in English as well.
baptizement batement bedizenment befriendment beguilement benightment benumbment bequeathment beseechment besetment bestowment betrayment betrothment betrustment bevelment bewailment bewrayment bickerment biliment bisegment blastment blazonment blemishment bodement bouleversement brabblement branglement bushment butment

The number of translations where the words are clearly cognates was actually very few
accompaniment - acompañamiento
displacement - desplazamiento
enchantment - encantamiento


A significant number of translations used the ción suffix


excitement - emoción
bedevilment - afección maligna
endowment - dotación
attachment - fijación
encroachment - invasión
measurement - medición
mismeasurement - medición errónea
abolishment - abolición
arraignment - acusación
impeachment - acusación
indictment - acusación
annulment - anulación
catchment - captación
disappointment - decepción

...
overexcitement - sobreexcitación
involvement - la participación de
disestablishment - desestabilización
agistment - régimen de pensión
mismanagement - mala administración
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 11:12:18 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I have noticed how few times that "google translate" actually translates the words this way. As there are over a thousand English words that end in -ment I will demonstrated with a small subset that begins with the letter b. Out of 50 words the "miento" suffix was used only once.



I'll reiterate that machine translation is a very long way from reliable yet, even when using single words or terms.

I won't delve into quoting a table, but some of the words you got from Google could be used as actions follows:

Desconcertamiento
Menospreciamiento

And others you didn't use like:

Desconocimiento

Quote:

The Google software did not translate the following words at all. However, to be fair, most of these words are very obscure in English as well.
baptizement



That's odd. The words is Bautismo and it's very common in Catholic-majority Spanish speaking countries, which is to say all of them.
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Wizard
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Wizard
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September 22nd, 2011 at 11:58:01 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

That's odd. The words is Bautismo and it's very common in Catholic-majority Spanish speaking countries, which is to say all of them.



When I worked as a Social Security claims representative in Huntington Park we used Mexican baptism certificates as proof of age often. We called them a baptismo. Most Mexican-born claimants did not have a birth certificate. This would have been for those born in the late twenties.
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pacomartin
pacomartin
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September 22nd, 2011 at 12:23:34 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

That's odd. The words is Bautismo and it's very common in Catholic-majority Spanish speaking countries, which is to say all of them.



Google translates
English baptize to Spanish bautizar
English baptizing to Spanish bautismo
English baptized to Spanish bautizado
Spanish baptismo to English baptism

But it does not translate baptisement

I think the difference is that the word "baptizein" was originally Greek, which was translated into Latin and into Spanish and English.

The -miento suffix in Spanish is the equivalent of the English suffix -ment. They both come from the Latin -mentum and are suffixes generally used to turn verbs into nouns.

Because the word was originally Greek it didn't have the Latin -mentum. English follows the paradigm, but Spanish doesn't recognize the ending because it didn't exist in Latin.

These other words were Latin originally, and they are all translated to the same paradigm
movement - movimiento
lineament - lineamiento
lodgement - alojamiento
sentiment - sentimiento
treatment - tratamiento
enlistment - alistamiento
entrapment - atrapamiento
impalement - empalamiento
ordainment - ordenamiento
refinement - refinamiento
settlement - asentamiento
confinement - confinamiento
emplacement - emplazamiento
enchantment - encantamiento
entablement - entablamiento
recruitment - reclutamiento
reinforcement - reforzamiento
resentment - resentimiento
accompaniment - acompañamiento
compartment - compartimiento
comportment - comportamiento
discernment - discernimiento
displacement - desplazamiento
empowerment - empoderamiento
embellishment - embellecimiento
ennoblement - ennoblecimiento
enrichment - enriquecimiento
entertainment - entretenimiento
establishment - establecimiento
impoverishment - empobrecimiento
nonalignment - no-alineamiento
establishment - establecimiento

I put over a thousand English words with the "-ment" suffix into Google Translate and about half of them did not translate to anything different in Spanish.
About 11% translated to a Spanish word with the "-ción" suffix, and only 10% translated to a Spanish word with "-miento" suffix. Only 4% were like the above examples, where it was basically the same word with slight spelling variations.
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 12:31:04 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Google translates
English baptize to Spanish bautizar
English baptizing to Spanish bautismo
English baptized to Spanish bautizado
Spanish baptismo to English baptism

But it does not translate baptisement



I'd translate the second as "bautizando," which would be the act of performing a baptism, or having one performed on yourself (however that goes). the rest seem ok. But in Mexico "Baptismo" is not commonly sued. People say "Bautismo" instead.

BTW the whole mess of words also means "christening" or "to christen" as in the ceremonies held when naming ships and wasting champagne.

Anyway, the word "baptisment" which if I'm right could be used in such phrases as "certificate of baptisement," does translate as "bautismo" as in "certificado de bautismo" assuming such documents even exist. It's a Gentile thing, after all.
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pacomartin
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September 22nd, 2011 at 12:57:10 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I'll reiterate that machine translation is a very long way from reliable yet, even when using single words or terms.



I don't think it will ever be reliable. Google Translate is a statistical translator, but their corpus (documents they used to make translations) are mostly European Union documents. So they tend to err toward European Spanish. Also they are official documents which are short on slang or newspaper style articles.

But rule based translations are often worse, and can be difficult in class-work. It seems like you learn a rule, and then you spend the next month learning exceptions.

For example the word dear is from an Anglo Saxon adjective that means "precious"
In English the word endear is a verb that means to "make more precious".
So the English word endearment is a noun that means "action or gift expressive of love"

But the word has no Latin origin. So there is no reason that Spanish would use the suffix "-miento" in the translation. The Spanish translation is cariño.

So the rule that English suffix "-ment" is equivalent to "-miento" only applies about 10% of the time. The rule is actually that English suffix "-ment" is equivalent to "-miento" in only the cases where the base word comes from a Latin word that uses the suffix "-mentum".
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 2:48:49 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I don't think it will ever be reliable.



It has to be. So much of science fiction depends on it :)

Quote:

But rule based translations are often worse, and can be difficult in class-work. It seems like you learn a rule, and then you spend the next month learning exceptions.



That's why there's no substitute for practice and understanding. It's tough going at first, but in the end you gain fluency as good as any native's.

Quote:

For example the word dear is from an Anglo Saxon adjective that means "precious"
In English the word endear is a verb that means to "make more precious".
So the English word endearment is a noun that means "action or gift expressive of love"

But the word has no Latin origin. So there is no reason that Spanish would use the suffix "-miento" in the translation. The Spanish translation is cariño.



For which word? Dear, endear or endearment?

I'd say it goes in order like this: Cariño, encariñar, encariñamiento. The last word sounds ok, but I've never heard it used.
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pacomartin
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September 22nd, 2011 at 5:16:12 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

For which word? Dear, endear or endearment?

I'd say it goes in order like this: Cariño, encariñar, encariñamiento. The last word sounds ok, but I've never heard it used.



Google Translate proposes:
endearment - cariño | ternura
endear - hacerse querer | congraciarse
dear - Queridos | Estimado

The last word must mean in the sense that "I paid dearly for the watch".

encariñamiento is translated as "grown fondly of" by Google

------------------------------------

The average vocabulary of an educated native English speaker is about 24,000 to 30,000. Shakespeare used 24,000 words - 1,700 of which he is claimed to have invented. I assume it is roughly the same for an educated Spanish speaker.

The latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary contains more than 300,000 head words, and some 615,000 "word forms," that include the head words, plus combinations and derivatives. It is generally acknowledged that the number of English words now exceed 1 million. Spanish linguists say there are 225,000 words in contemporary use.

In English, of course, I can tell if there is a dictionary word that you wouldn't normally use. In a previous post I referred to the word vastitude which is a legitimate English word, but not one that I have ever heard anyone ever use.

But encariñamiento is not in the RAE. I suspect that Google translate is just making their best guess.

Because the teaching of English is so common, there are limited vocabularies that are published. The Voice of America Special English uses roughly a 1500 word vocabulary. Oxford publishes the Oxford 3000 to encourage all programs to have a common base vocabulary. Although there are plenty of short lists of Spanish words, I never saw an official list.

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