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Nareed
Nareed
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September 21st, 2011 at 1:46:15 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

(I) first point
If you look up quejar in RAE . (Del lat. *quassiare, de quassare, golpear violentamente, quebrantar).
1. tr. aquejar
which implies that quejar andaquejar have the same meaning (to afflict)



1) "Aquejar" does mean to afflict. "Quejar" means complain. "Queja" means complaint.

2) I've never heard of the word "andaquejar."
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pacomartin
pacomartin
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September 21st, 2011 at 4:14:36 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I've never heard of the word "andaquejar."



That was a typo; a space was inadvertently omitted. I meant "Quejar" and "Aquejar" mean the same thing according to a definition in the RAE.

English employs reflexive derivation idiosyncratically, as in "self-destruct"; she "threw herself" down the stairs; and often they are understood as "I bathed this morning" is understood to mean "I batheded myself this morning", as opposed to "I bathed the dog this morning".

In the RAE the term "reflexive" is not used, the dictionary prefers the phrase "pronominal verbs" which it abbreviate "prnl".

So the RAE gives two definitions for quejar.
1. transitive - aquejar.
2. pronomial - Expresar con la voz el dolor o pena que se siente.

The 2nd definition means quejar and quejarse can have the same meaning. Judging by what you say, that is the normal interpretation.

Thinking mathematically, one would expect the basic verb to have a transitive meaning (i.e. I/you/he/she afflicts something), and the reflexive version to have a pronomial meaning (i.e. the something afflicts me/you/he/she). But it seems as if that's not always the case.
Nareed
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September 21st, 2011 at 4:46:48 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Thinking mathematically, one would expect the basic verb to have a transitive meaning (i.e. I/you/he/she afflicts something), and the reflexive version to have a pronomial meaning (i.e. the something afflicts me/you/he/she). But it seems as if that's not always the case.



Ah, this brings back memories of the Big Bang Theory, season one. To quote Penny talking to Sheldon, "Sweetie, you know how you think you're explaining something, but you're really not" Or words to that effect.

So let's get back. "Quejar" means "to comlpain." Aquejar" means "to afflict," or maybe "afflicted." Let's try some examples:

Me quejé del mal servicio en el restaurante = I complained about the bad service at the restaurant.

La gripe me aqueja = I'm afflicted with the flu/the flu afflicts me (I'm not sure the latter is propper English)

In any case, "aquejar" is not used much. You'd be more likely to say "tengo gripe" = "I have the flu." A doctor is more likely to ask "¿Que síntomas tienes?" = "What are your symptoms?" than "¿Qué te aqueja?" = "What afflicts you?"
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pacomartin
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September 21st, 2011 at 9:20:47 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Ah, this brings back memories of the Big Bang Theory, season one. To quote Penny talking to Sheldon, "Sweetie, you know how you think you're explaining something, but you're really not" Or words to that effect.

So let's get back. "Quejar" means "to comlpain." Aquejar" means "to afflict," or maybe "afflicted." Let's try some examples:



Quote: Series 1 Episode 05 Ė The Hamburger Postulate


Penny (opening door): Oh, hey Sheldon, whatís going on?
Sheldon: I need your opinion on a matter of semiotics.
Penny: Iím sorry?
Sheldon: Semiotics. The study of signs and symbols, itís a branch of philosophy related to linguistics.
Penny: Okay, sweetie, I know you think youíre explaining yourself, but youíre really not.
Sheldon: Just come with me



Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese and Romanian all have a formal syntax for verbs that are "reflexive" (English) or "pronomial" (Spanish) . A "pronomial" verb is one where the subject and the direct object are the same. Very frequently (but not always) the subject and direct object are the speaker of the sentence.

Theoretically every one of these verbs has a "transitive" version as well. By "transitive" I mean the subject is doing an action to a "direct object". In many cases (both English and Spanish) the "transitive" version is rarely used, and may still exist in dictionary but is archaic.

In English reflexive verbs are dealt with idiosyncratically. We say "He goes to school" (subject-he, verb-goes, direct object-school) where "goes" is a transitive verb.
We also say "I am going away", which is reflexive (subj-I, verb-goes, direct object-me).
In Spanish we use "ir" and "irse" to convey the same meaning.

Pronomial English Transitivo English
Acostarse to go to bed Acostar to lay down
Afeitarse  to shave oneself Afeitar  to shave
Apurarse to hurry up Apurar to hurry
Arrodillarse  to kneel down Arrodillar  to kneel
Bañarse to take a bath Bañar to bathe
Darse vuelta to turn around Dar vuelta to turn
Despertarse to wake up Despertar to awaken
Dormirse to fall asleep Dormir to sleep
Ducharse to take a shower Duchar to shower
Irse to go away, to leave Ir to go
Lavarse to wash up (wash oneself) Lavar to wash
Levantarse to get up Levantar to lift
Meterse to get in (enter something) Meter to put
Ponerse  to put on oneself Poner  to put
Quedarse to stay (to stay put) Quedar to remain
Quitarse to take off of oneself Quitar to remove
Secarse to dry off (dry oneself) Secar to dry
Sentarse to sit (oneself) down Sentar to sit
Sentirse to feel (emotion, illness) Sentir to feel
Alegrarse to become happy Alegrar to gladden
Enamorarse to fall in love Enamorar to love
Enfermarse to become (get) sick Enfermar to sicken
Enojarse  to become (get) angry Enojar  to anger
Entristecerse to become sad Entristecer to grieve


In Spanish "Quejar" and "Quejarse" have in normal conversation now merged to mean the same thing. But according to the RAE, the verb "quejar" can mean the same as "aquejar" (even though it is not commonly used that way anymore).

In your sentence "Me quejé del mal servicio en el restaurante" both the subject and the object of the sentence are "el mal servicio en el restaurante" . The indirect object is "me".

The Wizard's question results because in English we use the word "complain" as a transitive verb only. "I complained about the bad service", "I complain when I don't feel well", etc.

Spanish quejar is from the Latin root *quassiare which means to "repeatedly shake". So taken literally the offensive object is "shaking" the person (presumably from irritation).

The English word "complain" is really from an entirely different latin root *complangere which means to "beat your breast". The person is the subject of the sentence and he is beating his chest about some irritation. The word in English also has an archaic meaning of "lament".
Nareed
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September 21st, 2011 at 9:51:42 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese and Romanian all have a formal syntax for verbs that are "reflexive" (English) or "pronomial" (Spanish) . A "pronomial" verb is one where the subject and the direct object are the same. Very frequently (but not always) the subject and direct object are the speaker of the sentence.



You know, you go to an awful lot of trouble in this thread. It's almost impossible for me to give a glib answer, but it is impossible to give a smart one. I think this is the reason I slept through Spanish class, figuratively speaking. But I swear if vocabulary and reading hadn't been part of the grade, I'd have failed it all through junior high.

Quote:

In Spanish "Quejar" and "Quejarse" have in normal conversation now merged to mean the same thing. But according to the RAE, the verb "quejar" can mean the same as "aquejar" (even though it is not commonly used that way anymore).



Ok, fair enough. Even though I am of the position that usage determines meaning most times. And even though "aquejar" is rarely used at all anymore. In English terms, it's become a "Big Word" people use to impress others if they use it at all.

And thanks for the Penny quotation. I was going from memory back 4 years.
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Wizard
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Wizard
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September 21st, 2011 at 9:54:02 PM permalink
Thanks Paco. That helps but I still am having a hard time wrapping my ahead around some uses of reflexive verbs. First, based on your table, can it be said that any reflexive verb has a transitive version as well?

Let's go back to my original ejemplo (corrected):

Debes quejarte del pelo en tu sopa.

This still seems to me to be saying that you should complain to yourself. However, that wouldn't do any good, since you didn't make the soup. Are you saying that the hair is the subject, and the owner of the soup is the object? Is the it quejarte because the owner of the soup is so shaken by the hair that he/she is the victim of his own complaint? Would it be an outrage in Spanish grammar if I said "Debes quejar del pelo en tu sopa."?
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pacomartin
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September 21st, 2011 at 10:49:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks Paco. That helps but I still am having a hard time wrapping my ahead around some uses of reflexive verbs. First, based on your table, can it be said that any reflexive verb has a transitive version as well?



In theory.
However, in actuality the transitive version may have vanished from everyday use, even if it is still in the dictionary. This discussion is similar to one we had earlier about gustar. While it is technically correct to use it as a transitive verb, the use is extremely rare, and Nareed has no recollection of ever hearing it that way. "I am pleasing to you". It's use is almost universally "The soup is pleasing to me".

The word complain comes from Latin word that says "I am beating my chest" . So we say I am beating my chest about the hair in the soup. In Spanish the subject is the hair. The "hair in the soup" is irritating me.

In the sentence "Debes quejarte del pelo en tu sopa" the verb "debes" has to match the suffix "te" as they are both 2nd person singular (familiar). The translation is "you (familiar) should". The verb "complain" has nothing to do with matching "debes" and "te".

I don't know if the last sentence is an outrage, but it certainly doesn't seem correct. If you put it in google translate, the software suggests that you add the "te".


Reír and Reírse are a particularly troubling pair. As the article says, they seem to mean the same thing ("to laugh") and it is not always clear to the non-native speaker which is the correct one to use.

I always considered 501 Spanish Verbs to be an unofficial guide as to when both the transitive and pronomial verbs were in common usage.
For instance abstenerse (to abstain or refrain) is listed, but not abstener . The transitive verb means "to contain" while the reflexive verb means "to abstain". Spanish speaker is more likely to use "contener" when he means "to contain".

But aburrir and aburrirse are both listed in the book. The transitive verb means "to bore" and the pronomial verb means "to be bored". Both verbs are in common usage.

The same way with acordar (to agree) and acordarse (to remember). Both verbs are common.
pacomartin
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September 21st, 2011 at 11:28:46 PM permalink
Andale
Nareed
Nareed
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September 22nd, 2011 at 7:12:14 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

In the sentence "Debes quejarte del pelo en tu sopa" the verb "debes" has to match the suffix "te" as they are both 2nd person singular (familiar). The translation is "you (familiar) should". The verb "complain" has nothing to do with matching "debes" and "te".



I'm still stuck on Penny mode thus far, but that doesn't mean I can't make your lives a little harder.

The sentence "Debes quejarte del...." actually means "You MUST complain about the...." If you wanted to say "You should complain about the..." the correct usage is "DebeRÍAS quejarte de..."

Quote:

Reír and Reírse are a particularly troubling pair. As the article says, they seem to mean the same thing ("to laugh") and it is not always clear to the non-native speaker which is the correct one to use.



Reir is the infinitive form of the verb. Reirse means "laughing at something or someone." Keep in mind all infinitives end with either "ar," "er" or "ir." Due to the fact that literal translations are often meaningless, the usage may come across in English as "to laugh at someone or something." So for example:

El trabajo del comediante es hacer reir al público = The comedian's work is to make the audience laugh (literal translation for comparison: The work of the comedian is to make to laugh the audience)

Nada más vienen a reirse de mi = You only come to laugh at me.

Reirse can also mean "laughing" in an indefinite sense. For example:

Dejen de reirse y ponganse a trabajar = Stop laughing and get back to work


Quote:

For instance abstenerse (to abstain or refrain) is listed, but not abstener . The transitive verb means "to contain" while the reflexive verb means "to abstain".



I'm not sure which is which, but both abstener and abstanerese mean to abstain. For example:

Los pasajeros deben abstenerse de fumar durante el vuelo = Passengers must abstain from smoking during flight (try a lilteral translation, it's hilarious)

Te debes abstener de fumar durante el vuelo = You must abstain from smoking during flight.

All of which, BTW is unfair tos molers, but that's a subject for another thread....

Anyway, back when I was learning English my teacher urged me to practice watching TV and movies for two reasons: one is the obvious benefit of having to sue the language, even passively. the other is to get to know how the language is actually used. there's a lot that doesn't make it to the text books.
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Wizard
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September 22nd, 2011 at 8:16:20 AM permalink
Thanks for all your help above. That helps a lot. However, let's move on.

Fecha: 22 de Septiembre, 2011
Palabra del día: CASAMIENDO


The word of the day is casamiento, which means wedding. What I'm really trying to do is show this as an example of turning a verb into a noun. In this case casar means to marry. Adding miento changes it to the noun that happens as a result of the verb -- a marriage. Here are some other examples:

nacer=to be born, nacimiento = birth.
crecer=to grow, crecimiento = growth.
calentar=to heat, calentamiento = warmth.

Ejemplo time:

Si quejas el pelo en la sopa tendrá un enfrentamiento con el jefe = If you complain about the hair in the soup then you will have a confrontation with the boss.

Question for the advanced Spanish speakers: What is the difference between a casamiento and a boda?
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