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pacomartin
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September 13th, 2011 at 10:45:17 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Desperdicié medio día en una junta con gente del gobierno = I wasted half the day in a meeting with government people.




The word junta is one of the oldest Spanish words used in an English text. It was first recorded 1640s as junto (from confusion with Spanish nouns ending in -o), originally with reference to the Cabinet Council of Charles I .

Modern spelling in this sense in English is from 1714; popularized 1808 in connection with council formed to resist Napoleon.
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September 14th, 2011 at 6:47:28 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The word junta is one of the oldest Spanish words used in an English text. It was first recorded 1640s as junto (from confusion with Spanish nouns ending in -o), originally with reference to the Cabinet Council of Charles I .



It ought to make a certain Wizard feel better to know that kind of confusion goes back nearly 500 years :)
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pacomartin
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September 14th, 2011 at 7:31:29 PM permalink
I think it's funny that even in the 17th century English speakers thought they could speak Spanish by just adding an "o" to a word.
Comprendo estupido! I want a cervezo.
Nareed
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:00:02 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I think it's funny that even in the 17th century English speakers thought they could speak Spanish by just adding an "o" to a word.
Comprendo estupido! I want a cervezo.



No funnier that Spanish speakers who think they can speak English by adding a "-ation" or "-otion" ending to any Spanish word. For that matter the habit by some Mexican Jews to turn a Spanish verb to Yiddish by adding "-irn" to it. It's hilarious when a Yiddish teacher does it.
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September 16th, 2011 at 5:53:16 AM permalink
Seeing all the time and space being taken by heated arguments, here's today's word:

16 de Septiembre de 2011
Palabra del día: Calumnia

For once this is a simple word without multiple and often contradictory meanings. It means slander and libel. Specifically a false accusation made maliciously, with knowledge the accusation si false.
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pacomartin
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September 16th, 2011 at 9:59:40 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Palabra del día: Calumnia
For once this is a simple word without multiple and often contradictory meanings. It means slander and libel. Specifically a false accusation made maliciously, with knowledge the accusation is false.



Calumny is a cognate in English with the exact same meaning, but it is not in common usage. I recognize it from Hamlet.

Quote: Hamlet's verbal attack on Ophelia in Act III, Scene 1 (after "To be or not to be")

HAMLET
If thou dost marry, Ill give thee this plague for thy dowry. Be thou as chaste as ice, as pure as snow, thou shalt not escape calumny. Get thee to a nunnery, go. Farewell. Or, if thou wilt needs marry, marry a fool, for wise men know well enough what monsters you make of them. To a nunnery, go, and quickly too. Farewell.

OPHELIA
Heavenly powers, restore him!

HAMLET
I have heard of your paintings too, well enough. God has given you one face and you make yourselves another. You jig and amble, and you lisp, you nickname Gods creatures and make your wantonness your ignorance. Go to, Ill no more on t. It hath made me mad. I say, we will have no more marriages. Those that are married already, all but one, shall live. The rest shall keep as they are. To a nunnery, go.

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September 16th, 2011 at 5:37:32 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Calumny is a cognate in English with the exact same meaning, but it is not in common usage. I recognize it from Hamlet.



Actually that's closer to common usage in Spanish. There's some sort of legal term for slander and libel, but "calumnia" is used more as lies being told of someone.

Interestingly, or not, until recently publishing or otherwise distributing true facts about someone but which caused the target person "moral harm," that is which caused damage to his reputation, was illegal. This was a little known aspect of how the PRI kept control of the press. Another was a monopoly on newsprint.
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pacomartin
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September 16th, 2011 at 6:04:19 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Interestingly, or not, until recently publishing or otherwise distributing true facts about someone but which caused the target person "moral harm," that is which caused damage to his reputation, was illegal. This was a little known aspect of how the PRI kept control of the press. Another was a monopoly on newsprint.



Quote: Article 1916


In Mexico, Article 1916 of the Federal Civil Code protects the right of privacy. The rule states a remedy against the moral damage for the harm inflicted to persons, triggered by illicit acts, affecting the sentiments, affections, beliefs, décor, honour, reputation, private life, configuration, or physical aspects or the consideration that others have of that person.



Is this the article you are referring too?
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September 16th, 2011 at 7:02:52 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Is this the article you are referring too?



It might be. It's not like I've read the civil code.
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September 17th, 2011 at 10:16:05 AM permalink
17 de Septiembre de 2011
Palabra del día: Soberania.

This is a most itneresting word. In Mexico it means: "The reason given by politicians to keep the country bacwards and poor." Seriously. Any attempt to reform the albor laws, fiscal laws, the tax codes, the oil laws (don't ask), etc, to bring them out fo the XIX Century is met with "But that will make us lose our sovereignty." Oh, BTW, the last is what the word actually means.
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pacomartin
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September 18th, 2011 at 7:44:20 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Palabra del día: Soberania.



I would like to point out that this word seems to be an exception to the general rule
sovereignty, Soberania

English "ty" replaced with Spanish "tad"
faculty, facultad
liberty, libertad

English "ity" replaced with Spanish "idad"
fidelity, fidelidad
felicity, felicidad
authority, autoridad

The word in English was originally sovran, but it changed spelling by folk-etymology association with reign.

The Latin words were facultatem (nominative case facultas), and libertatem (nominative case libertas) that were the predecessors of faculty and liberty.
The Latin word was superanus which translated roughly as "super ring" for the symbol of a ruler. So it is the English word "sovereignty" that is not following the general rule.
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September 19th, 2011 at 7:35:39 AM permalink
19 de Septiembre de 2011
Palabra del día: Repetición

Today's word means both replay and repetition. I bring it up now because given the length of the thread, the odds of repeating a word are sky high.

I don't think we need an example. I also think I'm getting lazy after a long weekend... But I digress.
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September 19th, 2011 at 8:18:43 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

17 de Septiembre de 2011
Palabra del día: Soberania.

This is a most itneresting word. In Mexico it means: "The reason given by politicians to keep the country bacwards and poor." Seriously. Any attempt to reform the albor laws, fiscal laws, the tax codes, the oil laws (don't ask), etc, to bring them out fo the XIX Century is met with "But that will make us lose our sovereignty." Oh, BTW, the last is what the word actually means.



A non-Spanish speaking gringo like myself would think that it means 'staying sober for a long period of time' ;-) like 'sober-mania'..lol
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September 19th, 2011 at 8:38:25 PM permalink
20 de Septiembre de 2011
Palabra del día: montaña rusa


Today we have a phrase instead of a word. It is montaña rusa = roller coaster. Word by word, montaña = mountain, and rusa = Russian. So they Spanish expression for a roller coaster is a Russian mountain.

Okay, Paco, explain that one to me.

In other news, sorry I wasn't participating much with the SWD the last week. I don't like to announce when I'm out of town, but I was on the east coast all last week.
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pacomartin
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September 19th, 2011 at 8:57:43 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Okay, Paco, explain that one to me.



In a strange twist the Russian term for roller coasters is американские горки ("amerikanskie gorki") where "gorki" means "mountains".



The oldest roller coasters are believed to have originated from the so-called "Russian Mountains", which were specially constructed hills of ice, located especially around Saint Petersburg. Built in the 15th century, the slides were built to a height of between 70 and 80 feet, consisted of a 50 degree drop, and were reinforced by wooden supports. "Russian mountains" remains the term for roller coasters in many languages including nearly all the Romance languages.

Some historians say the first real roller coaster was built under the orders of Russia's Catherine the Great in the Gardens of Oreinbaum in Saint Petersburg in the year 1784. Other historians believe that the first roller coaster was built by the French. The Les Montagnes Russes à Belleville (The Russian Mountains of Belleville) constructed in Paris in 1812 and the Promenades Aeriennes both featured wheeled cars securely locked to the track, guide rails to keep them on course, and higher speeds.

The phrase "roller coaster" is of uncertain origins but is probably American. One story is that there was a ride in Massachussets where a sled coasted down a track made of rolling pins. The ride only lasted a few years, and the engineering had little to do with the mainstream development of rides, but for some reason the name stuck. But "roller" does come from a Latin word that means "little wheels".

Six Flags operates the largest amusement park in Mexico City. A trivia question (asked before) is to name the six flags over Texas without googling the answer.
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September 19th, 2011 at 9:03:46 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Six Flags operates the largest amusement park in Mexico City. A trivia question (asked before) is to name the six flags over Texas without googling the answer.



Or looking up-thread?

Here's an even better question:

Yes, the largest amusement park in Mex City is called Six Flags Mexico. What was it called before? No googling allowed.

Bonus question: name a famous former resident of that park. again, no googling or looking it up in the web.
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September 19th, 2011 at 9:24:33 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

In a strange twist the Russian term for roller coasters is американские горки ("amerikanskie gorki") where "gorki" means "mountains"...



Ask Paco, and ye shall receive. Truly the Cliff Clavin of the WoV. Thank you for the outstanding answer.
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September 19th, 2011 at 9:26:02 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

In a strange twist the Russian term for roller coasters is американские горки ("amerikanskie gorki") where "gorki" means "mountains"...



Ask Paco, and ye shall receive. Truly the Cliff Clavin of the WoV. Thank you for the outstanding answer.

Quote: Nareed

Bonus question: name a famous former resident of that park. again, no googling or looking it up in the web.



Vicente Fox. I know he used to be the president of Coca Cola in Mexico. Maybe he ran Six Flags before or afterward, being the hombre de negocios that he is.
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pacomartin
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September 20th, 2011 at 6:11:50 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed


Here's an even better question:
Yes, the largest amusement park in Mex City is called Six Flags Mexico. What was it called before? No googling allowed.
Bonus question: name a famous former resident of that park. again, no googling or looking it up in the web.



I used to work with marine biologists, and one of them wrote an extensive research paper on Keiko, the whale from the movie "Free Willy". I don't remember the former name of the park.
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September 20th, 2011 at 6:59:20 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Vicente Fox. I know he used to be the president of Coca Cola in Mexico. Maybe he ran Six Flags before or afterward, being the hombre de negocios that he is.



Not even close, but thank you for playing.

That was good use of the Spanish term.
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Nareed
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September 20th, 2011 at 7:06:46 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I used to work with marine biologists, and one of them wrote an extensive research paper on Keiko, the whale from the movie "Free Willy".



Right. BUt I think that was cheating :P

Quote:

I don't remember the former name of the park.



That's what makes it such a good question, yes?

I'd wait to see if anyone else wants to chime in, but I'm sure no one will. So the aprk, before being acquired by Six Flags, was known as "Reino Aventura."

I visited it once in the 80s shortly after it opened, and then never again. It's too far south on the city for me.
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Nareed
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September 20th, 2011 at 8:07:17 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

20 de Septiembre de 2011
Palabra del día: montaña rusa


Today we have a phrase instead of a word. It is montaña rusa = roller coaster.



I class roller coasters and tanks in the same category. They're inventions for which a ready name wasn't available, so they were named something, whether it made sense or not. I mean, contrast this with words like automobile, airplane, microscope, spectrograph, cromatograph, locomotive, telephone, and others which are also inventions but with names that actually mean something.
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pacomartin
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September 20th, 2011 at 12:34:57 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I class roller coasters and tanks in the same category. They're inventions for which a ready name wasn't available, so they were named something



Tank may have been a code word in 1916, as no one had seen one in military use.

How about something as old as humanity? It has a Latin word, a Spanish word of uncertain origin, and an English word that is less than 2 centuries old.

Latin feminine prōstituō means prostituted

Noun puta feminin (plural putas) (pejorative, vulgar) Prostitute, whore, slut.
Etymology
Uncertain. Could have been a short form of prostituta. Possibly related to Italian puttana (Old Spanish: putaña; see putañear), which ultimately derives from Latin putus, meaning pure. María Moliner dictionary (also Joan Coromines) states the most probable origin: from Vulgar Latin putta, from superlative puttus from putus, boy (note that this word appears in all romance languages).

Although prostitute is a readily used English word, in America the slang word is often hookers . The source of the word is disputed, but there is a legend which many Americans believe as to it's etymology. Can you give repeat the legend without looking it up? I would assume that the legend is not well known to Mexicans.
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September 20th, 2011 at 12:41:34 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

How about something as old as humanity? It has a Latin word, a Spanish word of uncertain origin, and an English word that is less than 2 centuries old.



Wall?

:)

Quote:

Although prostitute is a readily used English word, in America the slang word is often hookers . The source of the word is disputed, but there is a legend which many Americans believe as to it's etymology. Can you give repeat the legend without looking it up? I would assume that the legend is not well known to Mexicans.



Not a clue. I wasn't even aware there was a legend.

BTW How about the Latin meretrix? I stumbled upon it when I came across the English word "meretricious."
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September 20th, 2011 at 1:16:48 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Can you give repeat the legend without looking it up? I would assume that the legend is not well known to Mexicans.



My high school history teacher told us the story of the word. He told it as fact, but he may have been duped by an urban legend. According to Mr. Shelton, there was a General Hooker in the American Revolutionary War. The history books don't mention it, but armies at that time were supported by lots of women to cook, clean uniforms, nurse, and what the history book never say -- prostitutes. He said General Hooker had an especial propensity to supply his men with lots of them. I guess at the time there was no specific word for said working girls, so at least those under General Hooker's command became known as Hookers. At least that is how I recall the story from 30 years ago (a mí, parece que fue ayer). The reason it really sticks out is public high school teachers didn't mention prostitutes very often. I'm not sure I had ever even heard the word before that point, except in Catcher in the Rye.
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pacomartin
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September 20th, 2011 at 1:22:47 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

How about the Latin meretrix? I stumbled upon it when I came across the English word "meretricious."



The Latin word has not come down into any languages as far as I know, but the meaning "she who earns" has certainly been retained as "working girl".

Since words related to sex are so subject to innuendo and street slang, they seem to have complex etymology.

For example, English used to have two words, queen and quean. The first one was derived from Old English cwen "queen, female ruler of a state, woman, wife," and the second from Old English cwene "woman," also "female serf, hussy, prostitute"

The second word was first recorded in 1924 to mean a feminine and ostentatious male homosexual. The word now has that meaning exclusively, but the spellings of the two words have completely merged. It leads to the oft repeated obvious joke about what will call the British monarch if an openly homosexual man takes the throne. I say "openly" because most historians believe there have already been at least four monarchs who qualified.

Another Anglo Saxon word was hore and an Old Norse word was hora which meant "adulteress".
The French word putain which is similar to the Spanish word got corrupted from New Orleans Creole to English as poontang.

The word fishmonger is used by Shakespeare as a word with double meaning , with the primary meaning of someone who sells fish.
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September 20th, 2011 at 1:23:38 PM permalink
Quote:

there was a General Hooker in the American Revolutionary War.



Actually it was the American Civil War.
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September 20th, 2011 at 1:40:18 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

He said General Hooker had an especial propensity to supply his men with lots of them.



What a guy! I wonder if that was a recruiting incentive also.
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September 20th, 2011 at 2:11:08 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My high school history teacher told us the story of the word. He told it as fact, but he may have been duped by an urban legend. According to Mr. Shelton, there was a General Hooker.



That is the legend, and in fact General Hooker may have popularized the word with his tolerant attitude towards "camp followers". But the word did appear in print quite some time before the civil war. In 1840 there were only five American cities with populations above 50K, so urban living and a prostitute district was still relatively rare.

1 New York city, NY ................ 313K
2 Baltimore city, MD ............... 102K
3 New Orleans city, LA ............. 102K
4 Philadelphia city, PA ............ 94K
5 Boston city, MA .................. 93K

Only NYC was approaching a large city and Brooklyn was still a small town. The district where the prostitutes hung out was called "The Hook" and it was near the docks on the East River south of the present day Williamsburg Bridge. The hook is a prominent geographic corner of the island. Today it is called Corlears Hook Park after a family who owned the land, and all the dockyards have crossed the river to Brooklyn.

Speaking of hooks and corners, a very important Spanish word that you will see in a lot of geographic names in Latin America and Southwest USA is Rincón which means corner. See if you can infer the meaning of rincón los borrachos (not you Nareed). It is actually one of those words (like olé) which is borrowed from the Arab occupation of Spain ( ركن ) . The latin derived word for corner is esquina which I don't believe is used in any Place names.
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September 20th, 2011 at 2:22:08 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My high school history teacher told us the story of the word. He told it as fact, but he may have been duped by an urban legend. According to Mr. Shelton, there was a General Hooker in the American Revolutionary War.



Was there a General Hooker? Such legends sound good, but often a factual error creeps in. Converesely, sometimes a documented fact is used as the kernel to grow a legend on.

Quote:

The history books don't mention it, but armies at that time were supported by lots of women to cook, clean uniforms, nurse, and what the history book never say -- prostitutes.



There's a custom going back at least to Roman times called "camp following." It means civilians follow an army's supply train and set up camp near where the army stops. Next day the pick up whatever the army leaves behind. Remember in those days armies could march for weeks. setting upa dn striking down a camp every day. I wouldn't be surprised if camp followers also provided goods and performed services for the troops they followed, including prostitutes.

I don't know if such practices alsted as long as the XVIII Century, or even if they ever crossed the Atlantic Ocean.
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September 20th, 2011 at 2:27:45 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The Latin word has not come down into any languages as far as I know, but the meaning "she who earns" has certainly been retained as "working girl".



Well, we retained "meretricious," which isn't common, but I imagine people who like to show off their vocabulary will use it.

Quote:

Since words related to sex are so subject to innuendo and street slang, they seem to have complex etymology.



Words related to sex are one thing. Words unrelated to sex but used for sexual terms are another. Pray tell, for example, how "come," a perfectly harmless word, came to mean what it does today? BTW that piece of slang is also used in Spanish for some reason (I have to try to stay on topic, don't I?)
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September 20th, 2011 at 3:08:38 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Speaking of hooks and corners, a very important Spanish word that you will see in a lot of geographic names in Latin America and Southwest USA is Rincón which means corner. See if you can infer the meaning of rincón los borrachos (not you Nareed). It is actually one of those words (like olé) which is borrowed from the Arab occupation of Spain ( ركن ) . The latin derived word for corner is esquina which I don't believe is used in any Place names.



I think I heard of the Hook in New York theory as well. It isn't as good of a story at General Hooker. As I learned from the Book of Mormon musical, the important thing is to believe, not whether what you believe is true.

I thought the word for corner is esquina. Then again, it would making learning languages too easy if there were just one word for everything. Perhaps it means corner more as a verb. So, I know that borracho means drunk, and I didn't have to look it up. I think it came up a while back in this thread. So my bust guess is "corner of drunks." I would feel better about it there was a de in there, but it seems anything goes with Spanish idioms. That might make for a good name for a bar on a street corner. Or perhaps a the English equivalent of a "drunk tank." There is that word tank again.

Okay, question for the audience (i.e. Paco), there is a casino called Harrah's Rincon near San Diego. Does that Rincon share the same meaning as corner?
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September 20th, 2011 at 3:14:19 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The latin derived word for corner is esquina which I don't believe is used in any Place names.



There being so many names, I wouldn't be so sure.

In any case, it's used for giving directions and addresses, like "Chapultepec esquina con Arcos de Belén."

So, ridiculous trivia question of the day: what's wrong with the address given above?
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September 20th, 2011 at 3:23:05 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I thought the word for corner is esquina. Then again, it would making learning languages too easy if there were just one word for everything. Perhaps it means corner more as a verb.



No, it's a noun. But it's not used the same way as corner. If I tell you we'll meet "en el rincón de Flamingo y el Strip," you should lok at me odd and say "¿Que?"

Rincón is used more to refer to a corner formed by walls inside a structure. When punishing a child, you'd tell him "¡Al rincón!" not "¡A la esquina!" Esquina is the corner formed by streets.

Rincón also means a small, usually enclosed or ensconced space, given over to a perticualr group or activity, a niche as it were, thoug there's a separate word for niche (nicho, as it turns out).

Quote:

So, I know that borracho means drunk, and I didn't have to look it up.



Have you ever tried borrachitos? If not, remind me to bring some next time I go to Vegas, and some insuline to go with them....

Quote:

So my bust guess is "corner of drunks." I would feel better about it there was a de in there, but it seems anything goes with Spanish idioms.



There is. Paco missed it, and I missed he missed it because my brain fills it in. Good call.
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September 20th, 2011 at 4:50:44 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Okay, question for the audience (i.e. Paco), there is a casino called Harrah's Rincon near San Diego. Does that Rincon share the same meaning as corner?



Rincón California is the corner formed by two valley's coming together. Harrah's is very near the intersection of the two roads. Rincón's Arab roots make it a little more poetic than "esquina". You are more likely to use it as a place name.

There is a little peninsula in Western Puerto Rico called Rincón which is very popular with surfers .


Rincón de Guayabitos is a fairly isolated peninsula near Puerto Vallarta, with the luxurious Four Seasons Punta Mita and the St. Regis.
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September 21st, 2011 at 8:54:19 AM permalink
Fecha: Sep 21, 2011
Palabra del día: QUEJAR


Today's word, quejarse means complain. I'm not sure why it is reflexive, but that is another issue.

Ejemplo time:

Debes quejarse del pelo en tu sopa. = You should complain about the hair in your soup. I'm not sure del is right, Spanish propositions always give me trouble. Where English uses "about" it seems Spanish can use de, para, por, sobre, and who knows what else.
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September 21st, 2011 at 9:11:40 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: Sep 21, 2011
Palabra del día: QUEJAR



Quejar = To complain

Quote:

Today's word, quejarse means complain. I'm not sure why it is reflexive, but that is another issue.



I'm so not good with grammar. anyway:

Quote:

Ejemplo time:

Debes quejarse del pelo en tu sopa. = You should complain about the hair in your soup.



Debes quejarTE del pelo en tu sopa. As you can see, the rest is right.
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Wizard
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September 21st, 2011 at 9:36:17 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Debes quejarTE del pelo en tu sopa. As you can see, the rest is right.



Forgive the stupid question, but why the TE? This seems to say that you should complain to yourself about the hair in the soup.
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Nareed
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September 21st, 2011 at 10:07:06 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Forgive the stupid question, but why the TE? This seems to say that you should complain to yourself about the hair in the soup.



I would be a lto easier if I could identify the tense being used, In any case, you're using the second person singular in the familiar form, tu, and the proper word to use is "quejarte." if you were using the formal form of the pronoun, usted, then you should say "debe quejarSE"
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pacomartin
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September 21st, 2011 at 1:26:45 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: Sep 21, 2011
Palabra del día: QUEJAR


Today's word, quejarse means complain. I'm not sure why it is reflexive, but that is another issue.

Ejemplo time:

Debes quejarse del pelo en tu sopa. = You should complain about the hair in your soup. I'm not sure del is right, Spanish propositions always give me trouble. Where English uses "about" it seems Spanish can use de, para, por, sobre, and who knows what else.



(I) first point
If you look up quejar in RAE . (Del lat. *quassiare, de quassare, golpear violentamente, quebrantar).
1. tr. aquejar
which implies that quejar andaquejar have the same meaning (to afflict)

aquejar. (De quejarse).
1. tr. Acongojar, afligir, fatigar (to grieve, to afflict, to fatigue)

a "reflexive" verb is used when the subject of a verb is the same as the object
the "object" (in this case a hair) is afflicting you


(II) second point
"quejarse" is listed as a "verb+preposition" . In general "verb+preposition" can correspond to a different preposition than used in English, or in English to no preposition at all. For "quejarse" the preposition is "de"

(III) third point
the sentence is using the "de" + "el" contraction "del" so we are not breaking the second point

(IV) fourth point
As Nareed pointed out, use the following combinations
Debes quejarte
Debe quejarse

As an exercise using the "first person" of "poder" translate No Puedo Quejarme más
Nareed
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September 21st, 2011 at 1:46:15 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

(I) first point
If you look up quejar in RAE . (Del lat. *quassiare, de quassare, golpear violentamente, quebrantar).
1. tr. aquejar
which implies that quejar andaquejar have the same meaning (to afflict)



1) "Aquejar" does mean to afflict. "Quejar" means complain. "Queja" means complaint.

2) I've never heard of the word "andaquejar."
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pacomartin
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September 21st, 2011 at 4:14:36 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I've never heard of the word "andaquejar."



That was a typo; a space was inadvertently omitted. I meant "Quejar" and "Aquejar" mean the same thing according to a definition in the RAE.

English employs reflexive derivation idiosyncratically, as in "self-destruct"; she "threw herself" down the stairs; and often they are understood as "I bathed this morning" is understood to mean "I batheded myself this morning", as opposed to "I bathed the dog this morning".

In the RAE the term "reflexive" is not used, the dictionary prefers the phrase "pronominal verbs" which it abbreviate "prnl".

So the RAE gives two definitions for quejar.
1. transitive - aquejar.
2. pronomial - Expresar con la voz el dolor o pena que se siente.

The 2nd definition means quejar and quejarse can have the same meaning. Judging by what you say, that is the normal interpretation.

Thinking mathematically, one would expect the basic verb to have a transitive meaning (i.e. I/you/he/she afflicts something), and the reflexive version to have a pronomial meaning (i.e. the something afflicts me/you/he/she). But it seems as if that's not always the case.
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September 21st, 2011 at 4:46:48 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Thinking mathematically, one would expect the basic verb to have a transitive meaning (i.e. I/you/he/she afflicts something), and the reflexive version to have a pronomial meaning (i.e. the something afflicts me/you/he/she). But it seems as if that's not always the case.



Ah, this brings back memories of the Big Bang Theory, season one. To quote Penny talking to Sheldon, "Sweetie, you know how you think you're explaining something, but you're really not" Or words to that effect.

So let's get back. "Quejar" means "to comlpain." Aquejar" means "to afflict," or maybe "afflicted." Let's try some examples:

Me quejé del mal servicio en el restaurante = I complained about the bad service at the restaurant.

La gripe me aqueja = I'm afflicted with the flu/the flu afflicts me (I'm not sure the latter is propper English)

In any case, "aquejar" is not used much. You'd be more likely to say "tengo gripe" = "I have the flu." A doctor is more likely to ask "¿Que síntomas tienes?" = "What are your symptoms?" than "¿Qué te aqueja?" = "What afflicts you?"
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pacomartin
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September 21st, 2011 at 9:20:47 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Ah, this brings back memories of the Big Bang Theory, season one. To quote Penny talking to Sheldon, "Sweetie, you know how you think you're explaining something, but you're really not" Or words to that effect.

So let's get back. "Quejar" means "to comlpain." Aquejar" means "to afflict," or maybe "afflicted." Let's try some examples:



Quote: Series 1 Episode 05 The Hamburger Postulate


Penny (opening door): Oh, hey Sheldon, whats going on?
Sheldon: I need your opinion on a matter of semiotics.
Penny: Im sorry?
Sheldon: Semiotics. The study of signs and symbols, its a branch of philosophy related to linguistics.
Penny: Okay, sweetie, I know you think youre explaining yourself, but youre really not.
Sheldon: Just come with me



Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese and Romanian all have a formal syntax for verbs that are "reflexive" (English) or "pronomial" (Spanish) . A "pronomial" verb is one where the subject and the direct object are the same. Very frequently (but not always) the subject and direct object are the speaker of the sentence.

Theoretically every one of these verbs has a "transitive" version as well. By "transitive" I mean the subject is doing an action to a "direct object". In many cases (both English and Spanish) the "transitive" version is rarely used, and may still exist in dictionary but is archaic.

In English reflexive verbs are dealt with idiosyncratically. We say "He goes to school" (subject-he, verb-goes, direct object-school) where "goes" is a transitive verb.
We also say "I am going away", which is reflexive (subj-I, verb-goes, direct object-me).
In Spanish we use "ir" and "irse" to convey the same meaning.

Pronomial English Transitivo English
Acostarse to go to bed Acostar to lay down
Afeitarse  to shave oneself Afeitar  to shave
Apurarse to hurry up Apurar to hurry
Arrodillarse  to kneel down Arrodillar  to kneel
Bañarse to take a bath Bañar to bathe
Darse vuelta to turn around Dar vuelta to turn
Despertarse to wake up Despertar to awaken
Dormirse to fall asleep Dormir to sleep
Ducharse to take a shower Duchar to shower
Irse to go away, to leave Ir to go
Lavarse to wash up (wash oneself) Lavar to wash
Levantarse to get up Levantar to lift
Meterse to get in (enter something) Meter to put
Ponerse  to put on oneself Poner  to put
Quedarse to stay (to stay put) Quedar to remain
Quitarse to take off of oneself Quitar to remove
Secarse to dry off (dry oneself) Secar to dry
Sentarse to sit (oneself) down Sentar to sit
Sentirse to feel (emotion, illness) Sentir to feel
Alegrarse to become happy Alegrar to gladden
Enamorarse to fall in love Enamorar to love
Enfermarse to become (get) sick Enfermar to sicken
Enojarse  to become (get) angry Enojar  to anger
Entristecerse to become sad Entristecer to grieve


In Spanish "Quejar" and "Quejarse" have in normal conversation now merged to mean the same thing. But according to the RAE, the verb "quejar" can mean the same as "aquejar" (even though it is not commonly used that way anymore).

In your sentence "Me quejé del mal servicio en el restaurante" both the subject and the object of the sentence are "el mal servicio en el restaurante" . The indirect object is "me".

The Wizard's question results because in English we use the word "complain" as a transitive verb only. "I complained about the bad service", "I complain when I don't feel well", etc.

Spanish quejar is from the Latin root *quassiare which means to "repeatedly shake". So taken literally the offensive object is "shaking" the person (presumably from irritation).

The English word "complain" is really from an entirely different latin root *complangere which means to "beat your breast". The person is the subject of the sentence and he is beating his chest about some irritation. The word in English also has an archaic meaning of "lament".
Nareed
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September 21st, 2011 at 9:51:42 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese and Romanian all have a formal syntax for verbs that are "reflexive" (English) or "pronomial" (Spanish) . A "pronomial" verb is one where the subject and the direct object are the same. Very frequently (but not always) the subject and direct object are the speaker of the sentence.



You know, you go to an awful lot of trouble in this thread. It's almost impossible for me to give a glib answer, but it is impossible to give a smart one. I think this is the reason I slept through Spanish class, figuratively speaking. But I swear if vocabulary and reading hadn't been part of the grade, I'd have failed it all through junior high.

Quote:

In Spanish "Quejar" and "Quejarse" have in normal conversation now merged to mean the same thing. But according to the RAE, the verb "quejar" can mean the same as "aquejar" (even though it is not commonly used that way anymore).



Ok, fair enough. Even though I am of the position that usage determines meaning most times. And even though "aquejar" is rarely used at all anymore. In English terms, it's become a "Big Word" people use to impress others if they use it at all.

And thanks for the Penny quotation. I was going from memory back 4 years.
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September 21st, 2011 at 9:54:02 PM permalink
Thanks Paco. That helps but I still am having a hard time wrapping my ahead around some uses of reflexive verbs. First, based on your table, can it be said that any reflexive verb has a transitive version as well?

Let's go back to my original ejemplo (corrected):

Debes quejarte del pelo en tu sopa.

This still seems to me to be saying that you should complain to yourself. However, that wouldn't do any good, since you didn't make the soup. Are you saying that the hair is the subject, and the owner of the soup is the object? Is the it quejarte because the owner of the soup is so shaken by the hair that he/she is the victim of his own complaint? Would it be an outrage in Spanish grammar if I said "Debes quejar del pelo en tu sopa."?
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pacomartin
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September 21st, 2011 at 10:49:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks Paco. That helps but I still am having a hard time wrapping my ahead around some uses of reflexive verbs. First, based on your table, can it be said that any reflexive verb has a transitive version as well?



In theory.
However, in actuality the transitive version may have vanished from everyday use, even if it is still in the dictionary. This discussion is similar to one we had earlier about gustar. While it is technically correct to use it as a transitive verb, the use is extremely rare, and Nareed has no recollection of ever hearing it that way. "I am pleasing to you". It's use is almost universally "The soup is pleasing to me".

The word complain comes from Latin word that says "I am beating my chest" . So we say I am beating my chest about the hair in the soup. In Spanish the subject is the hair. The "hair in the soup" is irritating me.

In the sentence "Debes quejarte del pelo en tu sopa" the verb "debes" has to match the suffix "te" as they are both 2nd person singular (familiar). The translation is "you (familiar) should". The verb "complain" has nothing to do with matching "debes" and "te".

I don't know if the last sentence is an outrage, but it certainly doesn't seem correct. If you put it in google translate, the software suggests that you add the "te".


Reír and Reírse are a particularly troubling pair. As the article says, they seem to mean the same thing ("to laugh") and it is not always clear to the non-native speaker which is the correct one to use.

I always considered 501 Spanish Verbs to be an unofficial guide as to when both the transitive and pronomial verbs were in common usage.
For instance abstenerse (to abstain or refrain) is listed, but not abstener . The transitive verb means "to contain" while the reflexive verb means "to abstain". Spanish speaker is more likely to use "contener" when he means "to contain".

But aburrir and aburrirse are both listed in the book. The transitive verb means "to bore" and the pronomial verb means "to be bored". Both verbs are in common usage.

The same way with acordar (to agree) and acordarse (to remember). Both verbs are common.
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September 21st, 2011 at 11:28:46 PM permalink
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September 22nd, 2011 at 7:12:14 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

In the sentence "Debes quejarte del pelo en tu sopa" the verb "debes" has to match the suffix "te" as they are both 2nd person singular (familiar). The translation is "you (familiar) should". The verb "complain" has nothing to do with matching "debes" and "te".



I'm still stuck on Penny mode thus far, but that doesn't mean I can't make your lives a little harder.

The sentence "Debes quejarte del...." actually means "You MUST complain about the...." If you wanted to say "You should complain about the..." the correct usage is "DebeRÍAS quejarte de..."

Quote:

Reír and Reírse are a particularly troubling pair. As the article says, they seem to mean the same thing ("to laugh") and it is not always clear to the non-native speaker which is the correct one to use.



Reir is the infinitive form of the verb. Reirse means "laughing at something or someone." Keep in mind all infinitives end with either "ar," "er" or "ir." Due to the fact that literal translations are often meaningless, the usage may come across in English as "to laugh at someone or something." So for example:

El trabajo del comediante es hacer reir al público = The comedian's work is to make the audience laugh (literal translation for comparison: The work of the comedian is to make to laugh the audience)

Nada más vienen a reirse de mi = You only come to laugh at me.

Reirse can also mean "laughing" in an indefinite sense. For example:

Dejen de reirse y ponganse a trabajar = Stop laughing and get back to work


Quote:

For instance abstenerse (to abstain or refrain) is listed, but not abstener . The transitive verb means "to contain" while the reflexive verb means "to abstain".



I'm not sure which is which, but both abstener and abstanerese mean to abstain. For example:

Los pasajeros deben abstenerse de fumar durante el vuelo = Passengers must abstain from smoking during flight (try a lilteral translation, it's hilarious)

Te debes abstener de fumar durante el vuelo = You must abstain from smoking during flight.

All of which, BTW is unfair tos molers, but that's a subject for another thread....

Anyway, back when I was learning English my teacher urged me to practice watching TV and movies for two reasons: one is the obvious benefit of having to sue the language, even passively. the other is to get to know how the language is actually used. there's a lot that doesn't make it to the text books.
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September 22nd, 2011 at 8:16:20 AM permalink
Thanks for all your help above. That helps a lot. However, let's move on.

Fecha: 22 de Septiembre, 2011
Palabra del día: CASAMIENDO


The word of the day is casamiento, which means wedding. What I'm really trying to do is show this as an example of turning a verb into a noun. In this case casar means to marry. Adding miento changes it to the noun that happens as a result of the verb -- a marriage. Here are some other examples:

nacer=to be born, nacimiento = birth.
crecer=to grow, crecimiento = growth.
calentar=to heat, calentamiento = warmth.

Ejemplo time:

Si quejas el pelo en la sopa tendrá un enfrentamiento con el jefe = If you complain about the hair in the soup then you will have a confrontation with the boss.

Question for the advanced Spanish speakers: What is the difference between a casamiento and a boda?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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