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mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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January 2nd, 2011 at 8:37:38 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Try this. Last post. You are referring to a transaction between private parties, in other words Mexican people, and you kick the entire culture while you're at it.



That's pretty tenuous, but I think I can defend the position that bribery/corruption is deeply ingrained in the Mexican culture. It's the major reason why the border communities can't stop the drug chaos, for example. Also, anyone who's ever dealt with the police, or with government officials, in any way in Mexico knows what I'm talking about.

I've traveled to and in Mexico dozens of times in the last twenty years, and in my experience, NOTHING gets done without la mordida. Nothing. It's a simple fact of Mexican life; is pointing that out a criticism of their culture? It could be construed that way, but such a comment could hardly be deemed "RACIST" by any sensible person (for one thing, "Mexican" is not a race).

Does pointing out that Mexico is corrupt and dysfunctional constitute a criticism of the Mexican people? I don't think so. The PRI ran the place like a medieval fiefdom for over seven decades. The present situation is only a minor improvement. Widespread corruption will only end when the people stop accepting bribery as the normal way of getting things done. There has to be a social movement toward honesty in government officials, and that includes increased expectations of honesty. If I DO have a criticism of the Mexican people in this regard, it would be in that I see a fatalistic approach on their part to the problem, and a perception that nothing can be done about it--a perception that will, of course, be self-fulfilling.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 2nd, 2011 at 9:07:46 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I've heavily criticized THE COUNTRY OF MEXICO in the past, but I have NEVER criticized the Mexican PEOPLE.



I knew lots of Mexicans when I was in Calif in the 70's and early 80's. I worked in a bar and about a quarter of the customers were Mexicans. Whats funny is, I knew at least 4 regulars who were 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican Americans, but they wouldn't admit it. They would say their parents were from Panama or Guatamala or any place but Mexico. The reason was, illegals from Mexico were so looked down upon, as were Mexicans in general, they denied they were of that heritage. It was very common. That was 30 years ago, maybe things have changed, I have never been back.
It seemed silly to me, of course I wasn't from there, what did I know.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
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January 2nd, 2011 at 10:17:18 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Quote: Nareed

Try this. Last post. You are referring to a transaction between private parties, in other words Mexican people, and you kick the entire culture while you're at it.



That's pretty tenuous, but I think I can defend the position that bribery/corruption is deeply ingrained in the Mexican culture. It's the major reason why the border communities can't stop the drug chaos, for example. Also, anyone who's ever dealt with the police, or with government officials, in any way in Mexico knows what I'm talking about.



Good plan. Claim superior knowledge. Much better than just apologizing. Plus, Nareed's only lived in Mexico for (redacted) years - how much can he possibly know about dealing with the Mexican Government?

Quote:

It could be construed that way, but such a comment could hardly be deemed "RACIST" by any sensible person (for one thing, "Mexican" is not a race).



You're right. It isn't a racist comment, it's an ethnist comment. My Irish-American friends tell me that's not any better...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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January 2nd, 2011 at 10:33:37 PM permalink
The claim against MKL654321 was not Racism, it was being a bigot.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
mkl654321
mkl654321
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January 2nd, 2011 at 11:27:54 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Good plan. Claim superior knowledge. Much better than just apologizing. Plus, Nareed's only lived in Mexico for (redacted) years - how much can he possibly know about dealing with the Mexican Government?
You're right. It isn't a racist comment, it's an ethnist comment. My Irish-American friends tell me that's not any better...



"Ethnist"?

I think everyone here's taken dumb pills. I'll say it one last time--I am criticizing the Mexican GOVERNMENT. NOT a "race". NOT an "ethnic group".

And if Nareed's lived in Mexico for 83 million years, or whatever it is, and hasn't noticed the rampant corruption there, he's been asleep or in a coma all that time.

And recognition of the corruption in Mexico isn't "superior" knowledge--it's COMMON knowledge.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
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January 2nd, 2011 at 11:32:53 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

The claim against MKL654321 was not Racism, it was being a bigot.



Uh, no, no such (valid) claim was made. I was being taken to task for, apparently, criticizing the Mexican government for tolerating and fostering corruption. Apparently Americans can't make such observations about other countries without being "bigoted":

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

So by criticizing (or, more accurately, mentioning) the Mexican government, I'm apparently a bigot. I hope that Nareed, you, and any others with a similar mindset would, in the interest of intellectual honesty, also characterize any MEXICAN who criticized the AMERICAN government as a "bigot".
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 2nd, 2011 at 11:37:18 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321



So by criticizing (or, more accurately, mentioning) the Mexican government, I'm apparently a bigot



I don't understand this conversation. Bribery at all levels of Mexican gov't and bureaucracy has been a way of life for how many hundreds of years? Is somebody denying this?
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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January 3rd, 2011 at 2:05:43 AM permalink
For what it's worth: (i.e., you can debate the veracity of the info)

Quote:

Mexico is ranked the 86th least corrupt country in the world which makes them less corrupt than Argentina and more corrupt than China. This is according to the Corruption Perceptions Index, which is based on 13 different surveys and includes police, business, and political corruption. This is according to Transparency International.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico#Corruption
The Hall of Unverified Claims is a vast place with many shelves.
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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January 3rd, 2011 at 5:55:02 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Uh, no, no such (valid) claim was made.


I was not debating whether the claim was valid. But a claim was made. The debate is whether it's valid or not. So, uh, yes.

My real point was that there was all this noise over whether you were being racist, but Nareed never said such a thing. The creation of the straw man argument that you were racist and then making the point that Mexicans are not a racist is a straw man. You can do better than that, and I'm sure you'd encourage your students to do so as well.

Quote:

I was being taken to task for, apparently, criticizing the Mexican government for tolerating and fostering corruption. Apparently Americans can't make such observations about other countries without being "bigoted":

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance


For what it's worth, I wouldn't call your criticism on it's own bigoted.

Quote:



So by criticizing (or, more accurately, mentioning) the Mexican government, I'm apparently a bigot. I hope that Nareed, you, and any others with a similar mindset would, in the interest of intellectual honesty, also characterize any MEXICAN who criticized the AMERICAN government as a "bigot".



I've certainly been called anti-American for criticizing the American government, and all sorts of other names for making comments against the good ol' USofA.

Not a bigot though...
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Mosca
Mosca
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January 3rd, 2011 at 6:24:27 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus


Good plan. Claim superior knowledge. Much better than just apologizing.



LOL, this cuts right to the nut.
NO KILL I

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