Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
Joined: Jul 27, 2016
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October 22nd, 2016 at 11:34:08 AM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Because if the cards that are turned one direction are a mix of good cards (8s and 9s) and bad cards (face cards), the information is of no use. You see a "half-diamond" card, and you have no idea what it is. If you get all the bad cards or all the good cards going one way, that's where you have information.



So he had the dealer turn ONLY the 8s and 9s? And nobody saw anything suspicious about that? Good God.
HeyMrDJ
HeyMrDJ
Joined: May 29, 2015
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October 22nd, 2016 at 11:40:41 AM permalink
This is why every game in vegas is now shuffled differently. Watch them rotate half the pack just before the riffle.
Guess who peed in my Cheerios? Romes did...
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 22nd, 2016 at 12:58:24 PM permalink
Quote: HeyMrDJ

This is why every game in vegas is now shuffled differently. Watch them rotate half the pack just before the riffle.


Even on shoe blackjack. Fear mongering from the protection people to sell their services.
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Wizard
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Wizard
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October 22nd, 2016 at 1:29:38 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Consider the old trick:
Woman player uses makeup and daubs the cards. Male Confederate wears red contacts and can see the finger daubs. Is this cheating? Clearly it is.

Edge sorting is akin to having the casino daub the cards thinking they are only giving in to the whims of a weirdo.



Yes, marking cards is cheating. However, I reject to comparison to what Ivey did. The makeup is a device, which are generally illegal. I would argue that Ivey didn't use any devices and obeyed all casino rules. Although, in the very similar Crocfords case, the judge there ruled that Ivey used the dealer as a device. Decent point but I still take Ivey's side.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Wizard
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Wizard
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October 22nd, 2016 at 1:32:12 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

So he had the dealer turn ONLY the 8s and 9s? And nobody saw anything suspicious about that? Good God.



I fail to understand why didn't immediately suspect something when Ivey asked to play baccarat. If he asks to play anything I would immediately ask what advantage play does he know about that I don't. I would then let him play and watch everything he does like a hawk. If you can't figure out the advantage play, there are several consultants, some who are members here, who could have figured it out within two minutes.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
socks
socks
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October 22nd, 2016 at 1:39:16 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I fail to understand why didn't immediately suspect something when Ivey asked to play baccarat.


Some poker players are known to be degenerate gamblers in other areas. That might be the default expectation.
RS
RS
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October 22nd, 2016 at 1:50:45 PM permalink
AFAIK, using marked cards is not cheating. Marking them, however, is cheating. ie: If you notice the back of the Ace of Diamonds has a tear in it, and use this information, it is not cheating. The casino is the one who turned the cards. If anyone is guilty of cheating, it's the casino, legally speaking.

Or is the argument going to be, they didn't know any better?

Does that mean I can send my mom into a casino with some extra make-up or daub on her hand, and tell her to touch the back-side of the aces? As long as she didn't know any better.....am I right?


Or do the laws only go one way? (Rhethorical question, btw.)
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Deucekies
Deucekies
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October 22nd, 2016 at 2:17:52 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I fail to understand why didn't immediately suspect something when Ivey asked to play baccarat. If he asks to play anything I would immediately ask what advantage play does he know about that I don't. I would then let him play and watch everything he does like a hawk. If you can't figure out the advantage play, there are several consultants, some who are members here, who could have figured it out within two minutes.



Although he has a great reputation as a phenomenal poker pro, he has possibly a bigger reputation as a non-AP gambler. His game of choice is usually craps, and he is known to lose seven figures in a trip sometimes.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 22nd, 2016 at 2:37:11 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Although he has a great reputation as a phenomenal poker pro, he has possibly a bigger reputation as a non-AP gambler. His game of choice is usually craps, and he is known to lose seven figures in a trip sometimes.


https://youtu.be/3hYsCemYyGQ
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
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October 22nd, 2016 at 2:48:37 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I fail to understand why didn't immediately suspect something when Ivey asked to play baccarat. If he asks to play anything I would immediately ask what advantage play does he know about that I don't. I would then let him play and watch everything he does like a hawk. If you can't figure out the advantage play, there are several consultants, some who are members here, who could have figured it out within two minutes.



1. Ivey could be like many successful poker players who have a gambling leak. If he also plays craps, for example, that might suggest that he just likes to gamble. So they'd happily let him play baccarat.
2. I do repeatedly ask this question when Bob Dancer writes about his latest video poker escapades. A casino should know that if he's playing, that can't be any good for them. The only answer I've ever been able to come up with is that Dancer strikes a Mephistophelian bargain with the casinos where he plays, offering "consulting" when needed, as in, outing other players. Maybe Ivey had some kind of similar deal??
3. They could have indeed suspected that he was doing some kind of advantage play but let him play anyway, as they might have been secure in their belief that Ivey couldn['t beat the game. (Stupid, I know.)

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