tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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October 23rd, 2016 at 4:07:47 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I think you are saying the casino's greed allowed them to get swindled.

I don't think he cheated and im not on the side of the casino, but I do think he swindled the casino. I really don't know how anyone can dispute that fact. If that's not a swindle I don't know what is.

If I invited you to play a card game with me, and lets say we both knew I was better at that game than you. So you asked me to buy a special deck of cards because you secretly knew the cards were marked and you used that to your advantage to beat me silly. You don't think that's a swindle?



Totally agree Axel. He swindled under NJ law, imo. I'm pleased he lost this case.

Quote: HeyMrDJ

This was a total free roll for the casino. I think they already knew about this trick, and they possibly already knew Phil was involved.

If he lost, they say nothing. When he wins they cry foul. It was my understanding, that even with the edge sorting the variance is such that he could still blow chunks before seeing the profit.

FWIW I dont consider this cheating at all.



You may not consider it cheating, but NJ law does, imo. If Borgata knew exactly what he was doing from the get go, then letting him do it knowing the law was on their side if they lost the session, then it was a master stroke. Kudos to them. But I honestly think Borgata wasn't that smart. I feel that they are fortunate that gaming law is on their side here.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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October 23rd, 2016 at 5:33:36 AM permalink
The way the law is written is too ambiguous. Under the current law I believe Ace location, shuffle tracking, even card counting could be considered breaking the law.
Have you ever increased your bet when you knew that the floor person was watching and then bet less when he walked away, in order to get a higher rating?
Well you probably just broke the NJ law.
Don't teach an alligator how to swim.
houyi
houyi
Joined: Jun 26, 2016
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October 23rd, 2016 at 10:15:54 AM permalink
Quote: RS

RE: Joe's speculation(?) about BD....I've heard the same before from multiple sources (ie: outing APs). I wonder if BD would clear the air and let us know what the situation is there.



I believe in one of his Las Vegas Advisor posts, Bob Dancer specifically says "never have, never will," when accused of having "named names" of APs to casino management. I forget which week exactly, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the Revel promotion. This obviously can't be considered the final word on the matter, as BD saying, "Yep, I totally sold out the same people I profess to help with my books and training by playing both sides of the fence," probably wouldn't be good for his rep in the AP community or his business as a writer/teacher (though likely his casino consulting business would improve).

Still, with only circumstantial evidence against BD, I think people need to just take him at his word in this case. At the very least, people who don't know him personally and thus only have the incomplete picture of his public image shouldn't be quick to judge him. I don't know BD personally, but I'm fairly certain that much of his public image is likely purposefully exaggerated or overly colorful because he feels it to be more entertaining and thus more likely to gain attention i.e. he recognizes the marketing possibilities. Regardless of how he portrays himself publicly, he may well have a personal set of honor that would prohibit him from selling people out.

But I don't know that, you don't know that, it's all just speculation.
houyi
houyi
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October 23rd, 2016 at 10:23:26 AM permalink
Quote: socks

Some poker players are known to be degenerate gamblers in other areas. That might be the default expectation.



I've heard that Ivey got big loss rebates for his craps play, so he might have been playing with an edge even with his supposed degen behavior. If not, it might even be possible that he had this planned out for some time--maybe he could take a hit on craps only to build casino trust so he could pull off an even bigger win on baccarat. Though, that would be a real Batman-style gambit, as everything would have to fall into place exactly, and the casinos at which he played would have to be run by monumental idiots. Of course, it turns out they were, so who knows?
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 23rd, 2016 at 11:10:17 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

The way the law is written is too ambiguous. Under the current law I believe Ace location, shuffle tracking, even card counting could be considered breaking the law.
Have you ever increased your bet when you knew that the floor person was watching and then bet less when he walked away, in order to get a higher rating?
Well you probably just broke the NJ law.

That's not at all what the opinion said. It was focused on what constitutes purposive card marking. Ivey/Sun admitted to causing the dealer to manipulate the cards in order to cause their values to be known only to them. The judge found that to be a violation of the CCA's prohibition on using marked cards:
Quote: Order

The Court finds that Ivey and Sun breached their contract with Borgata to play Baccarat in compliance with the CCA by violating N.J.S.A. 5:12-115(a)(2) and (b) when they knowingly engaged in a scheme to create a set of marked cards and then used those marked cards to place bets based on the markings.

"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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October 23rd, 2016 at 11:23:15 AM permalink
MathExtremist
In a previous post you said that
"This passage appears to indicate that other forms of Ap may be in violation of cca law if it unilaterally changes the outcome of the game "
So wouldn't an ace location player cutting the deck and altering the number of spots he plays fit this criteria?
Don't teach an alligator how to swim.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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October 23rd, 2016 at 11:59:11 AM permalink
Let this be a big lesson. Never admit to AP'ing any table game and play stupid.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
Joined: May 19, 2016
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October 23rd, 2016 at 12:10:16 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane


Totally agree Axel. He swindled under NJ law, imo. I'm pleased he lost this case.

You may not consider it cheating, but NJ law does, imo. If Borgata knew exactly what he was doing from the get go, then letting him do it knowing the law was on their side if they lost the session, then it was a master stroke. Kudos to them. But I honestly think Borgata wasn't that smart. I feel that they are fortunate that gaming law is on their side here.



Hmmm... But, is NJ Gaming Law on Borgata's side here? In my opinion, it's better to quote chapter and verse from the New Jersey Casino Control Act, as follows:

ARTICLE 1. INTRODUCTION AND GENERAL PROVISIONS

5:12-21 "Game" or "gambling game"
"Game" or "gambling game" - Any banking or percentage game located within the casino or simulcasting facility played with cards, dice, tiles, dominoes, or any electronic, electrical, or mechanical device or machine for money, property, or any representative of value.

5:12-22 "Gaming" or "gambling"
"Gaming or gambling" - The dealing, operating, carrying on, conducting, maintaining or exposing for pay of any game.

5:12-37 "Person"
"Person"- Any corporation, association, operation, firm, partnership, trust or other form of business association, as well as a natural person.

ARTICLE 9. SANCTIONS

5:12-113 Swindling and cheating; penalties
a. A person is guilty of swindling and cheating if the person purposely or knowingly by any trick or sleight of hand performance or by a fraud or fraudulent scheme, cards, dice or device, for himself or herself or for another, wins or attempts to win money or property or a representative of either or reduces a losing wager or attempts to reduce a losing wager in connection to casino gaming.

5:12-115 Cheating games and devices in a licensed casino; penalty
a. It shall be unlawful:
(1) Knowingly to conduct, carry on, operate, deal or allow to be conducted, carried on, operated or dealt any cheating or thieving game or device; or
(2) Knowingly to deal, conduct, carry on, operate or expose for play any game or games played with cards, dice or any mechanical device, or any combination of games or devices, which have in any manner been marked or tampered with, or placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, the result of which tends to deceive the public or tends to alter the normal random selection of characteristics or the normal chance of the game which could determine or alter the result of the game.


OK, enough NJ law "stuff." Seems to me Borgata was either incompetent or cheating.

Shame on you, Borgata! When you point a finger at Phil Ivey, three more point back at you.

And, this is just from the NJ statutes. Don't get me started on the (much more detailed) REGULATIONS of the NJ Casino Control Commission. Wading thru that crap makes me wonder if Borgata was even playing Baccarat according to the required procedures on the proper table. (Yech!)

Lucky (clawing his way back out of the Rabbit Hole...)
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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October 23rd, 2016 at 12:39:59 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Possibly the same reason why MGM, who owns Borgata, and sued Ivey in this case is still paying him to use his name on their Aria high limit poker room.

In April 2014, Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa in Atlantic City, New Jersey sued Phil Ivey for $9.6 million.

MGM Resorts International on Monday completed its deal to buy Boyd Gaming’s 50 percent stake of Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa for $900 million. --Aug. 1, 2016.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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October 23rd, 2016 at 12:42:46 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

In April 2014, Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa in Atlantic City, New Jersey sued Phil Ivey for $9.6 million.

MGM Resorts International on Monday completed its deal to buy Boyd Gaming’s 50 percent stake of Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa for $900 million. --Aug. 1, 2016.


Sure, but they've have been a partner in Bogata long before the Ivey case. MGM resorts is involved.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

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