MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
October 23rd, 2016 at 4:17:47 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

MathExtremist
In a previous post you said that
"This passage appears to indicate that other forms of Ap may be in violation of cca law if it unilaterally changes the outcome of the game "
So wouldn't an ace location player cutting the deck and altering the number of spots he plays fit this criteria?

Here's what the Court wrote:
Quote:

By using cards they caused to be maneuvered in order to identify their value only to them, Ivey and Sun adjusted the odds of Baccarat in their favor. This is in complete contravention of the fundamental purpose of legalized gambling, as set forth by the CCA.


What is it about maneuvering an ace in blackjack that you think would be different than maneuvering high or low cards in baccarat? Let me ask a simpler question: after reading that ruling, are you willing to try maneuvering an ace in New Jersey?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 1737
October 23rd, 2016 at 4:27:17 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Here's what the Court wrote:

What is it about maneuvering an ace in blackjack that you think would be different than maneuvering high or low cards in baccarat? Let me ask a simpler question: after reading that ruling, are you willing to try maneuvering an ace in New Jersey?


Yes I would. I'm only cutting the cards ,I'm not having the dealer do anything outside of the normal procedures, so I don't think this could be considered breaking the rules.
I still don't agree with the ruling and I expect there will be an appeal.
Don't teach an alligator how to swim.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
  • Threads: 34
  • Posts: 3412
October 23rd, 2016 at 5:01:37 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Sure, but they've have been a partner in Bogata long before the Ivey case. MGM resorts is involved.

Boyd maintained 100 percent operating control of the property until two months ago.
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8545
October 23rd, 2016 at 5:21:04 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Here's what the Court wrote:

What is it about maneuvering an ace in blackjack that you think would be different than maneuvering high or low cards in baccarat? Let me ask a simpler question: after reading that ruling, are you willing to try maneuvering an ace in New Jersey?



Actually, the high/low cards were not maneuvered in Ivey's edge sorting play.


I don't think we should go straight to the laws & regulations to see if something is legal/permitted or illegal/cheating.....but should determine whether this type of play should be illegal/cheating or if it should be legal & permitted....then see if they'll be changed accordingly.
# Свободный Натан
Artemis
Artemis
Joined: Nov 20, 2010
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 441
October 24th, 2016 at 5:33:39 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Here's what the Court wrote:

What is it about maneuvering an ace in blackjack that you think would be different than maneuvering high or low cards in baccarat? Let me ask a simpler question: after reading that ruling, are you willing to try maneuvering an ace in New Jersey?




You guys have no idea what's going on in AC casinos in real life. Never mind about acetracking, be aware of the casinos' phony accusations.

Example 1

Casino "00" had the best ace tracker arrested a few times with phony accusations.

Example 2

With DGE agents' laissez-faire attitude, Casino "01" is also allowed to evict permanently the same best ace tracker. An agent said to the tracker: " Oh I can't overturn the casino's eviction against you..." The tracker could fight the eviction, but he needs to pay a lawyer at a rate of $400~$600 per hour. What would you guys do if you were the tracker?
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
October 24th, 2016 at 6:16:50 PM permalink
Quote: Artemis

You guys have no idea what's going on in AC casinos in real life.

True, but so what? The judge didn't condition his opinion on "what's going on." The opinion was based on the facts in front of the court. If you think the ruling isn't relevant to ace tracking, so be it.

Quote:

An agent said to the tracker: " Oh I can't overturn the casino's eviction against you..." The tracker could fight the eviction, but he needs to pay a lawyer at a rate of $400~$600 per hour. What would you guys do if you were the tracker?

Find a different play or a different line of work.

Seriously, either that acetracking play is worth the legal costs to preserve or it's not. If it's not, that should tell you something. Good entrepreneurs know when to pivot to better opportunities. Bad ones cling to the old ones and fail when they dry up. There is no right to make money from being an AP any more than there is a right to make money from being a lawyer or a plumber. Every job has a cost of doing business. For AP, it sounds like that includes legal fees when you get caught. If you don't want to accept those costs, don't be an AP ... or don't get caught.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 1737
October 24th, 2016 at 6:23:27 PM permalink
Quote: Artemis

You guys have no idea what's going on in AC casinos in real life. Never mind about acetracking, be aware of the casinos' phony accusations.

Example 1

Casino "00" had the best ace tracker arrested a few times with phony accusations.

Example 2

With DGE agents' laissez-faire attitude, Casino "01" is also allowed to evict permanently the same best ace tracker. An agent said to the tracker: " Oh I can't overturn the casino's eviction against you..." The tracker could fight the eviction, but he needs to pay a lawyer at a rate of $400~$600 per hour. What would you guys do if you were the tracker?


If it's who i think it is he deserved to be kicked out,the way he was doing it was pathetic. I won't say any more on a public forum.
Don't teach an alligator how to swim.
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
Joined: Jul 27, 2016
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 943
October 24th, 2016 at 6:25:18 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Actually, the high/low cards were not maneuvered in Ivey's edge sorting play.


I don't think we should go straight to the laws & regulations to see if something is legal/permitted or illegal/cheating.....but should determine whether this type of play should be illegal/cheating or if it should be legal & permitted....then see if they'll be changed accordingly.



Ivey sees that the 8s and 9s in the deck are inadvertently marked with a smiley face on the back. He uses this information to make millions. That is not cheating.

Ivey talks the dealer into drawing a smiley face on the back of all the 8s and 9s because (he says) he thinks it's lucky to do that. He uses this information to make millions. That is indisputably cheating.

Nevada has some fairly unequivocal language about "manipulating the outcome" of a game, but the New Jersey law is kind of ambiguous in places. For one thing, they seem not to differentiate between cheating and swindling, which are two totally different things.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1223
  • Posts: 20327
October 24th, 2016 at 6:57:15 PM permalink
Comparisons could be made to the Gemaco case where players took advantage of two baccarat shoes where the cards came out in the exact same order.

Link: Golden Nugget Atlantic City Wins Favorable Ruling In Case Of $1.5 Million Baccarat Scandal.

Given that, I'm not surprised at all that Ivey lost in Atlantic City.

It is a shame such cases have to be all or nothing. I think the Ivey case falls in a grey area. If forced, I'd rule in his favor, but I would feel better about splitting the difference and let him keep half his winnings.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Keyser
Keyser
Joined: Apr 16, 2010
  • Threads: 34
  • Posts: 1850
October 24th, 2016 at 7:49:29 PM permalink
Quote:

Nevada has some fairly unequivocal language about "manipulating the outcome" of a game, but the New Jersey law is kind of ambiguous in places. For one thing, they seem not to differentiate between cheating and swindling, which are two totally different things.




Ambiguities in the law should should favor the defendant.

  • Jump to: