onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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October 21st, 2016 at 10:12:49 PM permalink
I would have to know what gambling regulations Ivey broke to judge in the judge's favor. Otherwise stupidity is just as acceptable to the casino taking money from people, and the casino has no inherent right to be protected from their own stupidity. They don't seek out anyone they've wronged and offer refunds, so how is this fair.
#FreeNATHAN #Paytheslaves
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 21st, 2016 at 10:40:37 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

I would have to know what gambling regulations Ivey broke to judge in the judge's favor. Otherwise stupidity is just as acceptable to the casino taking money from people, and the casino has no inherent right to be protected from their own stupidity. They don't seek out anyone they've wronged and offer refunds, so how is this fair.


Greasy palms possibly.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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October 21st, 2016 at 11:13:23 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Well, he cheated.



I knew I'd disagree with you eventually about something and that time has come. Can you please tell me which New Jersey gaming regulation he violated?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 21st, 2016 at 11:28:56 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I knew I'd disagree with you eventually about something and that time has come. Can you please tell me which New Jersey gaming regulation he violated?

I'm to lazy to look it up, but IIRC they do have some ambiguous wording in their law. I belive it says something about trickery or some word like that.

This would be obvious trickery IMO.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizard
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Wizard
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October 21st, 2016 at 11:39:40 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I'm to lazy to look it up, but IIRC they do have some ambiguous wording in their law. I belive it says something about trickery or some word like that.

This would be obvious trickery IMO.



It is up to the one writing the language to be on the losing side of any ambiguity. However, I am all ears to chapter and verse of whatever Ivey did that was "cheating."

Surprised to see you taking the casino's side on this one.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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October 21st, 2016 at 11:42:21 PM permalink
There is the old story about The Pencil who told a neophyte Dealer 'You are on Pai Gow Poker, Table Twelve in Twenty Minutes". The Dealer is said to have protested and informed The Pencil about his not knowing how to play the game, not ever having been trained on it and quite frankly not ever having heard of it.
The punchline of course is that The Pencil paused thoughtfully, then looked at his watch and said to the Dealer :You are Pai Gow Poker, Table Twelve in Nineteen Minutes".

I had minibacc dealers take my "losing" Players Bet when I bet on both Players and Tie and Tie won.

I had minbacc dealers charge me a Commission on BOTH my Bankers Bet for ME and my Bankers Bet for the Dealer. Idiotic dealer to think thats proper, they should want those dealer bets for their toke box and not punish teh player for making them.

These are casino Lack of Training Errors and Dumb Hires errors.

There is also the public response to thing like this: where the neophyte dealer is told "Deuces are Wild" or some crazy thing and falls for it.

Foreign Language aside its clear the casino employees should have been instantly taken aside and presented with expensive cigars as well as a pretty nifty blind fold too. The use of a foreign language simply means the Shift Supervisor should be included in the line against that wall.

Imagine a teller so dumb as to hand over ten grand in cash 'because I have an arrangement with the bank every Monday' and "no, I don't sign no receipt or give you anything, just shut up and do your job".

Ivey probably got a flat fee from teh Oriental Handlers who set it up. Reputation? Ever try using reputation when trying to get a drink from a bar tender?
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 21st, 2016 at 11:52:00 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

It is up to the one writing the language to be on the losing side of any ambiguity. However, I am all ears to chapter and verse of whatever Ivey did that was "cheating."

Surprised to see you taking the casino's side on this one.

I haven't been able to find the opinion but here's a more detailed article:

http://blogs.northjersey.com/meadowlands-matters/federal-judge-gives-split-court-opinion-on-phil-ivey-10m-baccarat-win-over-borgata-1.1681211?platform=hootsuite

Apparently there were claims/counterclaims and the judge dismissed some on both sides but found liability in others. It appeared that the judge found primary liability in breach of contract (that all parties follow the regulations) and that's where the damages hearing will go -- Borgata's initial brief is due in 20 days, Ivey's reply is due 20 days after. The judge did *not* issue a finding of fraud or cheating, and in fact dismissed the Borgata's fraud claims.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 22nd, 2016 at 12:10:59 AM permalink
I wouldn't call what he did cheating.

Did they swindle the casino?


Here is what I found.

113. Swindling and Cheating; Penalties.

a.A person is guilty of swindling and cheating if the person purposely or knowingly by any trick or sleight of hand performance or by a fraud or fraudulent scheme, cards, dice or device, for himself or herself or for another, wins or attempts to win money or property or a representative of either or reduces a losing wager or attempts to reduce a losing wager in connection to casino gaming.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
someone
someone
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October 22nd, 2016 at 1:17:18 AM permalink
On reading Math Extremists' second link it appears the Judge found that by edge sorting, Ivey had caused the cards to be marked.
RS
RS
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October 22nd, 2016 at 3:09:38 AM permalink
tl;dr: Ivey lost the case -- judge says he broke the rules of gambling -- but Ivey hasn't been charged?

Ivey won't go down for "cheating" or anything like that. My guess is this -- Ivey will be stuck $10M, won't be charged for cheating or whatever -- but they'll do something stupid....like charge the money with the crime of cheating (ie: like they do in asset forfeiture cases).


A bit ridiculous, I think, to say the cards "became marked" when they were turned, upon request by Ivey/Sun at the approval of the casino. This is, in essence, welching on behalf of the Borgata. The article says he made 5 requests to the casino...when there was really a 6'th request, with which the casino agreed -- to turn the cards.
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