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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:03:24 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

If the casino wants to allow human interaction in
throwing the dice, it gets what it gets.


If gamblers want human interaction in throwing the dice....
...they gets pit bosses telling them that they can't run the game over the house.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:08:16 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Both involve an intent to manipulate the dice in order to affect the elements of chance.



Once the casino allows a player to touch the dice,
it cannot dictate how the player handles the dice.
There's no way to enforce it.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:10:06 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If gamblers want human interaction in throwing the dice....
...they gets pit bosses telling them that they can't run the game over the house.



They can't stop it, the really good setters are
so fast they're undetectable. Just like the best
card counters.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:21:03 AM permalink
MrV you just ended the discussion when you wrote: "I hope to criminalize dice setting."

Okay, I'm sure everyone will want to belly up to a craps table to watch the dealer throw the dice.

Oh, as a matter of fact, in California you can watch the dealer turn over playing cards... and they call that California Craps. And it has been failing miserably in one casino after another.

Like I said, if you doubt the current regulations ask the NGC yourself.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:35:47 AM permalink
How come the Wiz hasn't weighed in on this, I'm
sure he has an opinion.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:39:51 AM permalink
Quote: fivespot

There is no crime here, and I'm disgusted at the number of people suggesting otherwise.


Yes there is if dice were slid.

Quote: fivespot

Capping bets is cheating. Trading cards at blackjack is cheating. Swapping in loaded dice is cheating.


And so is dice sliding. So add it to your list of cheating no-no's.

Quote: fivespot

But this? People "try" to get certain numbers in craps all the time. This is usually by superstitious means - think positive thoughts, hand the dice to the hot chick, be sure the dice are warm, whatever nonsense - but it's completely natural for someone to go "hey, maybe if I throw them differently, they'll come up the way I want". After all, they're right! Doing something completely natural should not be a felony.


Says who? Practice bank robbery enough, it also becomes natural for the practitioner.
What is completely natural to a criminal is usually a felony.
What is completely natural for an honest person almost never is.
This applies everywhere - including a casino house.

Quote: fivespot

]If the crew doesn't like the way you're shooting, it's their responsibility to void the roll and tell you to cut it out.


So you're saying it is certainly not the dice slider's responsibility - or any player's responsibility - to follow such thing as gaming laws or house rules of play.
If the crew misses something criminal, it doesn't make it legal or all right.
Remember - surveillance rules, and can call both the floor and the cops.

Quote: fivespot

If they think you're trying to get away with something they don't like repeatedly, or using means of distraction, it's their responsibility to stop you from playing.


You would think so.
But if Casino cheats still happen to be cheating for a while longer - and committing even more gaming crimes, it just makes them even more guilty, not less.

Quote: fivespot

If these people were betting big enough to win $145k in just seven rolls, Wynn has zero excuse for not paying attention to how they roll.


They apparently paid enough attention to file suit against these cheaters.
In fact, they made how they rolled or slid the dice their very case.

Quote: fivespot

"Oh, but they distracted us" ... grow up. It's your job to not be distracted, and you can afford to have lots of people watching action this big. "But we bend the rules for high rollers" ... then you're taking a calculated risk, and have no one else to blame when it backfires.


Deliberate distraction to hide a crime doesn't make the crime more legal. In fact, the action of attempted concealment increases guilt ("Knowledge of its criminality") and points to it.
In fact, trying to conceal a crime adds weight to the prosecution - they can say "Now look - they made deliberate efforts to conceal the crime precisely because they knew they were committing a crime - and were trying to hide it!"

Quote: fivespot

Was this incident the idle experimentation of a clueless newbie?


$700,000 in dice action at the Wynn with the tricky and advanced technique of dice sliding.
Perhaps a newbie to values and ethics....
Quote: fivespot

No, of course not. But if an action shouldn't be a felony for a clueless newbie, the same action shouldn't be a felony for experienced players trying to take the casino for everything they can.


Ignorance is no excuse of the law, or a defense for committing a crime.
Anyone could say, "I don't read the papers or have an education, - or just didn't know it was illegal - so I didn't know that bank robbery or casino cheating was somehow illegal! Okay, so then I am innocent! And I was just trying to pay my bills for my lifestyle, you see..." (On a Mercedes and a four-bedroom ranch house.)

Quote: fivespot

Dreams of taking the casino for a load of cash are what Vegas was built on.


But not at gun point, or by cheating.
Depends on how you implement your dreams.
Everyone has the American dream.
Ivy League University Tuition is also paid by the American dream to get to the point of "living large."

Quote: fivespot

If I were a recreational player, this would definitely make me less likely to play at the Wynn in the future.


I myself am a recreational player, - and it makes me MORE likely to play at a place that jettisons theives, cheats, and assorted other dirtbags.
In fact, I played and ate dinner at the Wynn tonight. $10 craps while my wife played slots - then later a dinner at Wing Lei Restaurant in a private dining room there, paid for by the CEO of DEQ Gaming Systems Earle Hall, along with Bill "Billy Woo" Walsh, among six other casino executives. We discussed Pai Gow Poker, New Jersey/Atlantic City licensing, the real hiostory of Pai Gow Poker as it spread out of the card rooms into a casino-banked game, and EZ Pai Gow, - but we did not touch this thread. You don't want to get a bunch of casino executives, former dealers and floormen discussing casino cheats and casino gamblers' general attitude. "Casino Cop Paigowdan" don't have shit on these old school casino house boys. And no, Joe Pesci did not make an appearance with a tire iron to applause, it is not like you think here. We just didn't go there.

Quote: fivespot

But I'm not, so I'll continue to take their money - legally and ethically - and I'll just be even happier about doing so.


So as long as it is ethically. I'm incredulous based on the sentiments and attitudes I here around here..."It's legal IF you can get away with it, as there is no such thing as a crime against those EVIL casinos, - and if caught, use any argument to justify the crimes."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 1:11:44 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

- and it makes me MORE likely to play at a place that jettisons theives, cheats, and assorted other dirtbags.



But Dan, to you a cheat and a dirtbag is anybody
who's an AP, even tho they're not breaking any laws.
But when a casino does whatever it likes, bends or
breaks or overlooks the rules, you think thats just
fine. Weird, huh.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 1:49:31 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Who here, if you threw a pair a dice, and you yourself noticed one remained flat and slid without hitting the end of the table would call yourself out if the casino let it go unnoticed and you won quite a bit of money?



You would likely to be beat up by the other players who won on your bet. I have seen first timers almost drop the dice, where one die lands about 2 feet from their hand. I have actually never seen someone call a "no roll" if the dice stayed inside the table. They threaten a lot, but usually the player compensates.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 2:06:37 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob


But Dan, to you a cheat and a dirtbag is anybody
who's an AP, even tho they're not breaking any laws.
But when a casino does whatever it likes, bends or
breaks or overlooks the rules, you think thats just
fine. Weird, huh.


No it isn't.
AP's who play by the house rules and laws are fine with us. Set a Pai Gow hand in a brilliant way, and I'll pay you cash right out of the rack.
But hole-carders or Card counters go to Roulette or go home or to jail in some cirsumstances.
"Sorry - and thanks for playing. Love you, but go to Roulette." Then THEY get nasty when backed off, which is the most polite action.
Dice sliders and bet cappers get worse.

It's unreal.

Gamblers walk into a casino honestly thinking they can do or say anything like, talk to the most polite and veteran dealers like they're absolute dog sh]t thinking they can get them fired for calling a seven-out without giving a damn, only to get outraged when told that their behaviour is out-of-bounds (truly lacking in home training for lack of a better description).

When getting arrested and cuffed by Henderson PD (Police Department), they will honestly say either (happened twice in a month here, forget about the Wynn):
1. "But...I don't want to get arrested" (crying, and finally waking up...) OR
2. "Hey! You're supposed to provide customer service! This is not customer service!"
While in handcuffs at a casino's rear entrance for police pick-up.

Spending a night or a week in an urban jail/detention center like Riker's Island (NY) or CCCF (Las Vegas) is a lot rougher than being told "okay, you're done for the night."
The urban Criminal Detention Center is now the back rooming you'll get as a casino cheat, and in order to end up there, you have to reasonably be considered a dirtbag in the eyes of the Police and society, - screw the floorman's opinion - or anyone here at this forum. Some time in a cage with a town of savages looking at your butt, it doesn't matter what the $7 an hour dealer of the $120 a day floorman thinks.

Surveillance tape played to the judge and jury is tough to argue.

Card counting is not illegal - though it is against casino house rules, and that's a lot - but a lot of the casino cheating crap that gamblers justify with a straight face - at least at this forum - is illegal.

Get backed off a game - and be fine with it.
But an arrest or a civil lawsuit is something.

A week in a municipal jail and a criminal record for life really sucks. So does a $700,000 lawsuit from Steve Wynn.
Expect pity from burnt-out dealers, floormen, or policemen who honestly don't look at casino cheating as some sort of a "valid and non-dirtbag activity?"

Not going to happen, except on an Internet forum in cyberspace.

Not in a real casino pit.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 2:20:25 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Card counting is not illegal - though it is against casino house rules



But its not, Dan. Nowhere in any casino rulebook
is it written down that card counting is against
the rules. Its not tolerated, its not against the
rules. Its not written in the rulebook that excessive
flatulence is against the rules, but its not tolerated
either.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal

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