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MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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October 5th, 2011 at 8:02:35 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


dice setting, and a controlled throw is not cheating. don't even suggest it is.



I will "suggest" whatever I want, Alan.

Quote: alanMendelson

A dead cat bounce? Do you mean a light toss so that the dice hit the table once and do not move, or, the dice are thrown lightly so they are trapped under the pyramids and do not bounce? here the key is did the dice fly in the air, and hit the back wall and table surface. if you can throw the dice lightly so they hit the table just under the pyramids and are trapped there it is a legal throw. if you mean the dice are thrown lightly, hit the table and stop dead but do not hit the back wall it is a "no roll."



Properly done, a dead cat bounce does not tumble uncontrollably; rather it stays the same orientation throughout; this derandomizes the result, and by definition IS cheating.

No different than a slide, except you are moving through the air, not on the felt.

The test should be did the dice tumble and go off axis sufficiently to allow a truly random outcome.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 5th, 2011 at 8:10:06 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

rather it stays the same orientation throughout; this derandomizes the result, and by definition IS cheating.



If the casino wants to allow human interaction in
throwing the dice, it gets what it gets. If they want
total control, have a machine throw them. Of
course nobody would want to play, but oh well..
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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October 5th, 2011 at 8:39:52 PM permalink
First 6-5 BJ is introduced and the low limit players continue to play. Can 4-5 Craps be far behind? Quick Josie, call my patent
attorney !
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 5th, 2011 at 9:10:20 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

First 6-5 BJ is introduced and the low limit players continue to play.



Ask your average player what 6/5 means for the game
and he has no idea. Its that ignorance that the casino
depends on for its livelihood.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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October 5th, 2011 at 9:57:31 PM permalink
Mr. V you are trying to change the law yourself when you say that travelling in the air is the same as being slid on the table surface. Here's how you put it:

"Properly done, a dead cat bounce does not tumble uncontrollably; rather it stays the same orientation throughout; this derandomizes the result, and by definition IS cheating.
No different than a slide, except you are moving through the air, not on the felt.
The test should be did the dice tumble and go off axis sufficiently to allow a truly random outcome."

This is absolutely wrong. You are trying to rewrite the rules. I suggest you take this up yourself with the Nevada Gaming Commission. Let them tell you.

In the meantime, I did a video of a demonstration of what dice sliding is. Here it is along with explanations of what is legal and what isn't. Suggest all you want, but you are wrong.

http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html
fivespot
fivespot
Joined: Jul 12, 2010
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October 5th, 2011 at 10:35:08 PM permalink
There is no crime here, and I'm disgusted at the number of people suggesting otherwise.

Capping bets is cheating. Trading cards at blackjack is cheating. Swapping in loaded dice is cheating. What do all of these have in common? It is blatantly obvious to even someone unfamiliar with the game that this is breaking the rules and attempting to defraud the casino. No one is going to think "hey, I'm going to try something different this time", and cap a bet, and oops, turns out it's a felony. It's obvious.

But this? People "try" to get certain numbers in craps all the time. This is usually by superstitious means - think positive thoughts, hand the dice to the hot chick, be sure the dice are warm, whatever nonsense - but it's completely natural for someone to go "hey, maybe if I throw them differently, they'll come up the way I want". After all, they're right! Doing something completely natural should not be a felony.

If the crew doesn't like the way you're shooting, it's their responsibility to void the roll and tell you to cut it out. If they think you're trying to get away with something they don't like repeatedly, or using means of distraction, it's their responsibility to stop you from playing. If these people were betting big enough to win $145k in just seven rolls, Wynn has zero excuse for not paying attention to how they roll. "Oh, but they distracted us" ... grow up. It's your job to not be distracted, and you can afford to have lots of people watching action this big. "But we bend the rules for high rollers" ... then you're taking a calculated risk, and have no one else to blame when it backfires.

Was this incident the idle experimentation of a clueless newbie? No, of course not. But if an action shouldn't be a felony for a clueless newbie, the same action shouldn't be a felony for experienced players trying to take the casino for everything they can. Dreams of taking the casino for a load of cash are what Vegas was built on.

If I were a recreational player, this would definitely make me less likely to play at the Wynn in the future. But I'm not, so I'll continue to take their money - legally and ethically - and I'll just be even happier about doing so.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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October 5th, 2011 at 10:39:48 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

sharp edges on new dice make it difficult if not impossible to slide the dice on the felt. sliding usually works best with worn dice on old table felts.

Something that is under casino control though I'm sure these were expert sliders. I expect camera tapes will show view-blockers or distraction moves.

I once lobbed the dice and had what has been referred to as a dead cat bounce, ie, they just hit the base of the wall and stayed put, no bounce at all. It was not intended or practiced but it was a lob, not a slide. I think we've all had tosses that on camera would look as if we were drunk when we were not. Sometimes the dice just go wild.
MrV
MrV
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October 5th, 2011 at 11:48:58 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Mr. V you are trying to change the law yourself when you say that travelling in the air is the same as being slid on the table surface. Here's how you put it:

"Properly done, a dead cat bounce does not tumble uncontrollably; rather it stays the same orientation throughout; this derandomizes the result, and by definition IS cheating.
No different than a slide, except you are moving through the air, not on the felt.
The test should be did the dice tumble and go off axis sufficiently to allow a truly random outcome."

This is absolutely wrong. You are trying to rewrite the rules. I suggest you take this up yourself with the Nevada Gaming Commission. Let them tell you.

In the meantime, I did a video of a demonstration of what dice sliding is. Here it is along with explanations of what is legal and what isn't. Suggest all you want, but you are wrong.

http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html



Alan, Alan ... you've annointed yourself as an expert on dice sliding.

OK, I'll go along with it ...

The "test" I posit is valid.

The issue is whether the dice toss or slide derandomizes the result.

It really shouldn't matter HOW this happens, Alan.

A non-random result comes from both dice sliding and a dead cat bounce toss, assuming both are properly executed by the shooter.

I believe you claim that so long as the dice are airborne, then it is legal; I say "Why would that matter?"

You suggest that proof that your argument is correct is found in the rules of the Nevada Gambling Commission.

Funny, the only arguably relevant references to the issue can be inferred from the statutes, NRS 465 et seq.; I saw nothing on point in the regulations.

So ...

NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:

(a) The result of a game

_____________


NRS 465.083 Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.


_______________

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:


7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.

____________


I found nothing else in Nevada law on point; my research is admittedly cursory, and recreational / whimsical; I would welcome any corrections and supplementations which you, as a self-proclaimed authority on the subject, can provide.

Indeed, your directive that I look to the rules of the Nevada Gaming Commission implies that YOU yourself can cite this absent proof: I encourage you to do so.

But I am pretty certain you cannot.

One need not have a keen legal mind to note that the above statutory scheme is a sieve.

Dice are NOT specifically referred to; there are no regulations which ascribe criminal penalties to particular dice tossing methods.

Dice sliding, dice setting: either allow them both, or prohibit them both.

Both involve an intent to manipulate the dice in order to affect the elements of chance.
"What, me worry?"
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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October 5th, 2011 at 11:58:06 PM permalink
Look Mr. V... I did all of that work about the legality of dice when I was a reporter at KCAL Channel 9, the CBS station in L.A. As part of my duties as being the business reporter, I also covered gaming. One of the reasons why a lot of time was spent on craps was because (probably) half the newsroom played craps, and we would have weekend jaunts to Vegas. We all got into investigating dice setting, etc.

If you read my articles on my website you will see the exact quotes from the NGC's chief investigator Keith Copher (now retired). Plus, I interviewed gaming regulators in other states with craps including Michigan. I report what I found. I'm not telling you what I think, I'm telling you what I found out.

So, find out for yourself. Call the NGC and ask them.

I got into this argument once before... with people who called dice settiing cheating. That's BS, period. Dice setting is an accepted part of the game as far as the NGC sees it. However, casinos have every right to decide who they do business with, and if they don't want dice setters and if they don't want dice setting, they can make those rules. But the NGC won't arrest you for dice setting.

Dice sliding is a different issue. The NGC will tell you dice sliding is illegal.

If you want to campaign for the legalization of dice sliding be my guest. But after my own test tonight at home, let me warn you that if you open a casino that allows dice sliding, I will be first in line at your craps pit.
MrV
MrV
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:01:43 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

If you want to campaign for the legalization of dice sliding be my guest.



You misread my agenda.

I hope to criminalize dice setting.

Your article was a "poof piece."

C'mon.

Who cares what his opinion is?

WHAT IS THE LAW?

Cite the statute, the regulation, or the court case interpreting same.

That is the only relevant inquiry.
"What, me worry?"

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