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kp
kp
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
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October 5th, 2011 at 11:30:53 AM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Again, can anyone say 'bad faith'?


You have certainly said it enough for everyone.
Keyser
Keyser
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October 5th, 2011 at 11:41:13 AM permalink
Yes, I probably have. However I want to make sure it shows up enough that people see this for what it really is -the Wynn is trying to get out of paying it's gambling debts.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 5th, 2011 at 12:08:43 PM permalink
If the dice sliders are found guilty of cheating, then it's not truly gambling winnings, and they might have to pay the money to Wynn.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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October 5th, 2011 at 1:25:29 PM permalink
My two cents:

I have never seen a case like this before, where people were being charged after the fact in a dice game. Yes, the dice throw is "illegal" but typically it's called with a "no roll" from the box. Any regular shooter will once in a while throw short, even slide the dice accidently on occasion. It's up to the box to enforce this.

The boxman (and the stick) has the right to say "no roll" at any point in time, and when the dice are sliding and that much action is on the table, there are usually two people looking at the roll to make sure it's legit. At a small table that's not busy, they sometimes do not employ a box, but I can't imagine this being the case given the ction.

So, let's say that the boxman was being distracted and that the player's accomplice was betting "on the slide". This seems like the case. If the crew is distracted, a slide takes place, and the accomplice is betting $100 say on the number that they're trying to get, a slid roll could easily pass. Perhaps the scheme was such that the slide only happened from time to time and since the slider wasn't betting big (the accomplice was) and the box was being distracted, this could pass. Perhaps some tipping could make the box look the other way on the roll. Who knows?

What I sense is that this is a long and determined effort by a team (of more than 2), that sliding was only happening on occasion, that distraction was occurring, and that the discovery and collection of evidence happened well after the fact. They were able to stay under the radar for a while because the slider wasn't betting big, and the frequency of the slide was low enough and not detected by the crew due to distraction. While hindsight is indeed 20-20, surveillance relies heavily on the pit to enforce this game.

Wynn will probably win its case and recover its money, and yes, it's probably being publicized to prevent that occurrence from happening again. Whether the crew was involved illicitly is unknown, but from another article, craps dealers were let go, either from not detecting the issue or because they were involved.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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October 5th, 2011 at 1:31:32 PM permalink
If there was no collusion with any Wynn employee I would find it difficult to convict these people.
Question- Mr. Craps dealer, do you ever allow a roll to count if it does not hit the back wall?
Answer- Yes, sometimes, but I will warn the shooter not to let it happen again.
Question- Did you ever warn these shooters?
Answer- No.
The defense rests.

If there was collusion witha craps dealer that is a whole different story.
reno
reno
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October 5th, 2011 at 1:32:06 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If the dice sliders are found guilty of cheating, then it's not truly gambling winnings, and they might have to pay the money to Wynn.



Dan, I usually disagree with your views, but I'm glad you're on this forum, because I appreciate your perspective.

Dice-setting is only cheating if it works. If it doesn't work, then the dice-setter wannabe is just another guy wagering money on a negative expectation game. So would you back off a dice-setter who sucked at dice-setting? If I worked in casino management, I would welcome as many incompetent dice-setters as I could to come play in my establishment.

Which brings me to the real question: is it even possible to bounce the dice against the back wall of the table and still influence the dice? I'm willing to accept that if such a feat is possible that it is indeed a form of cheating. But I'm not willing to accept that it is common or easy. It is very difficult and very rare.
Doc
Doc
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October 5th, 2011 at 1:47:15 PM permalink
Another opinion from a non-lawyer who knows nothing about the case other than what is in this thread ....

I don't consider a practice to be illegal unless it violates some law or tort. If sliding the dice violates Nevada law, then the dice sliders should be charged with criminal conduct and then be subject to civil action, but I haven't seen anyone pointing to the law that they broke.

My impression is that dice sliding violates the house policy of many/most/all casinos regarding how the dice are to be thrown. If you violate a house policy but do not violate the law, then I think it should be left to the casino operators (dealers, box man, pit supervisor, etc.) to enforce their policies at the time the practice is occurring. Obviously, crews enforce this policy sometimes and let the "violations" go at other times.

If the crew doesn't notice an improper roll, chalk it up to a failure of the crew and get them trained better. If they notice but don't enforce the rule, then the practice seems to have been declared acceptable for that evening, though they would be free to enforce their policy at any later time they choose. If the crew is complicit and benefiting from the trick rolls, then there is fraud in the fact that they deliberately allowed it to happen for personal gain. In that case, both the players and the employees should be charged with criminal action and be targeted with civil suits.

I don't think they have much basis for a civil law suit against the players unless there is conduct that violates either law or tort or there was some fraud such as involving the employees. Just not abiding by a policy that is the responsibility of the crew to enforce does not seem like fraud to me.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 5th, 2011 at 2:14:10 PM permalink
At the casino I work at, we have backed off and gotten rid of a couple of dice sliders. They lost a lot of money thereby enrichening the casino, AND they used to toke (tip) the dealers very generously; they were marked as casino cheats in the network, and were gone very quickly. Nice guys in terms of their treatment of people and their gracious behavior - but casino cheats. Not good casino cheats, but casino cheats by their actions..."No rolled" and removed, gone for good.

It wasn't a question of whether they won or lost.

It wasn't a question about the dice hitting the back wall.

It was a question of whether or not they slid the dice over the felt, which is a casino cheating manuever. That was the action, and only action, that is at the heart of the matter. Doesn't matter if they were good at it. It mattered if they did it. They did.

We enforced our policies in regards to their actions, - without looking at extraneous issues.

We did not ask "did they win or lose?"
"Dice hitting the back wall?" was not the issue.
And we did not let them stick around, just to see if they would win or lose. They were no-rolled, caught and expelled.

IF something is considered cheating by house policy - offenders should quickly be removed from the house.
IF it is additionally illegal, there may be police and attorney involvement.
IF the Wynn wishes to seek a lawsuit against these people, they will do so.
If it is approved to go to civil trial, there will be a civil trial.
IF the judge and jury make a ruling, that ruling is enforced.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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October 5th, 2011 at 2:19:18 PM permalink
Card counting is not illegal. Casinos have the right not to do business with card counters.

Dice setting and controlled throwing is not illegal. But dice sliding IS illegal as that particular technique is considered illegal.

I have been asked to leave various casinos because I use a controlled throw with set dice. But I have never been accused of a crime or threatened with arrest. The casinos didnt like that I set my dice and used a controlled throw.

Had I slid the dice, it would have been different.

I don't know how to slide dice, and never tried... just for the record.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 5th, 2011 at 2:22:25 PM permalink
Spot on.

By the way, we are fine with dice setters who do not delay the game.
Our current policy is you may set the dice, so as long as you do not delay the game, and hit the back wall.
But Sliding dice: O-U-T out.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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