Thread Rating:

rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
  • Threads: 169
  • Posts: 10087
October 5th, 2011 at 5:25:08 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

One box man came alive when a woman got the dice and threw them in the wrong direction



Hah, I just had this image of a woman throwing the dice over her shoulder. For good luck, of course.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 102
  • Posts: 3618
October 5th, 2011 at 5:30:12 PM permalink
A couple of things: first there is no question what a dice slide is. It can easily be viewed from the eye. the dice are literally on the table surface, and do not roll or bounce. some casinos have a ridge midway down the table that will prevent a slide, but I never played at the Wynn because the time I checked out their tables they felt to be too bouncey to my touch.

The eye can certainly record a slide and there is no doubt about that.

About the crew: the number one rule for game protection is to keep your eye on the dice at all times. obviously had they done that, they would have seen the slide.

Next question: did they know a slide was illegal?

Next question: if the crew didnt watch the dice (error on part of crew) and if the crew didn't know a slide is illegal (error on part of crew) can a casino sue the players after the fact once the video from the eye is reviewed? I think that question has to be decided in court.

But clearly, the crew had the opportunity to stop the slide the first time, the second time, the third time...

get the point?

http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 102
  • Posts: 3618
October 5th, 2011 at 5:41:44 PM permalink
Quote: reno

Dice-setting is only cheating if it works.



This is totally false. As I reported, and quoted the NGC officials, craps is the only game in the casino in which the casino turns the decision making over to the player. And in the game of craps the player has every opportunity to make the decision in his favor using legal means.

Dice settng is legal. A controlled throw is legal. But there is an exception and it is clearly about sliding dice -- it has been ruled illegal.

Now, a casino has every right not to allow someone to set the dice, or throw the dice in a controlled manner. But it is not illegal to set or to throw in a controlled way.

It is illegal to slide the dice.

Regarding the question about influencing the dice if they bounce against the back wall? Obviously, the chance of influencing drops dramatically if the dice bounce off the back wall. The real dice experts do not bounce their dice... the dice hit the back wall under the pyramids and come to a stop. This is how I got into trouble at Bellagio... my dice came to rest against the back wall and did not bounce off the back wall "a minimum of six inches" which is what the table crew demanded.

Later, Bellagio execs told me their table crew was wrong. There is no requirement to "bounce off" and only to "hit" the back wall.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
October 5th, 2011 at 5:50:51 PM permalink
> The real dice experts do not bounce their dice...
I think you mean "expert cheaters"
> the dice hit the back wall under the pyramids and come to a[n immediate] stop.
>This is how I got into trouble at Bellagio...
Backroomed? Back Alleyed? Or just "No Roll"?

>"my dice came to rest against the back wall and did not bounce off the back wall "a minimum of six inches"
And did they add that six inch requirement out of thin air just for that occasion.

>Later, Bellagio execs told me their table crew was wrong. There is no requirement to "bounce off" and only to "hit" the back wall.
Did this "later" help you financially or solely aid your feelings about the incident?
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 431
  • Posts: 24860
October 5th, 2011 at 5:54:17 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Regarding the question about influencing the dice if they bounce against the back wall? Obviously, the chance of influencing drops dramatically if the dice bounce off the back wall. The real dice experts do not bounce their dice... the dice hit the back wall under the pyramids and come to a stop.



From a long tutorial on dice sliding and dice setting:

"Nice slow arc and landing. The dice take two to three bounces, square and flush to the table surface, just in front of the diamond wall, gently repel off the back wall, and then "die" like "fly paper" sticking them to the table."
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
  • Threads: 316
  • Posts: 6960
October 5th, 2011 at 6:14:23 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

As I reported, and quoted the NGC officials ... Dice settng is legal. A controlled throw is legal. But there is an exception and it is clearly about sliding dice -- it has been ruled illegal.



So a dead cat bounce is legal, and a slide isn't?

There's little or no real difference between a successful slide and a successful dead cat bounce, and yet you claim one will land the shooter in prison, and the other will result in him being proclaimed the World's Greatest Shooter by Scoblete.

I submit that the only way to clarify this ambiguity would be to absolutely prohibit dice sliding and setting.

Heck, take it to the next level and have the legislature enact a statute criminalizing these two attempts to pull a fast one on the casino.

Be clear, be consistent: no gray areas.

"Just pick em up and toss em."

No exceptions.

Problem solved, and the game will move along faster, without all the superstitious morons trying to set and fix the dice "just so."
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 431
  • Posts: 24860
October 5th, 2011 at 6:18:05 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Problem solved, and the game will move along faster, without all the superstitious morons trying to set and fix the dice "just so."



How can the casino stop it? A real pro can set the
dice in less than 2 seconds, thats almost impossible
to spot with the naked eye.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
  • Threads: 316
  • Posts: 6960
October 5th, 2011 at 6:22:52 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

How can the casino stop it? A real pro can set the
dice in less than 2 seconds, thats almost impossible
to spot with the naked eye.



Like I said, "Just pick em up and throw em."

Do NOT allow the player to manipulate the dice at all.

One warning, and if the moron continues, pass the dice to the next shooter.

Easy.
"What, me worry?"
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
October 5th, 2011 at 7:18:51 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Doesn't matter if they were good at it [dice sliding]. It matters if they did it. They did.


Quote: reno

So you'd back off all card-counters. Even counters who suck at counting cards?


Yes. That is the job of the table games' pit crew and surveillance, and card counters get backed off if caught. Go play Roulette.

Quote: sdb

Who here, if you threw a pair a dice, and you yourself noticed one remained flat and slid without hitting the end of the table would call yourself out if the casino let it go unnoticed and you won quite a bit of money?


It's next to impossible to slide the dice by accident - no less on purpose, but some can do this trick.

Furthermore, I return money to the dealer to be put back in the rack - where it belongs - on such occasions:

1. When a dealer mistakenly paid my DC bet on a seven out.
2. Folded Three card poker hands holding an ace when the dealer, from inexperience, showed a low-pip hold card, and I told the dealer to stop exposing hole cards.
3. Played out a King-high three card hand when another dealer showed an Ace, again, flashing the Three card hand's bottom card - as I would have played out the hand otherwise. Again mentioning: "Please don't flash the bottom card of your hand."
It personally bothers me to take money "not won" by me.

If I become acclimated to taking dirty money, I'd become like most gamblers, and not like fewer gamblers.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 102
  • Posts: 3618
October 5th, 2011 at 7:38:31 PM permalink
Let's clear up the misconception: dice sliding has nothing to do with a "toss."

think of dice sliding as putting your finger on top of a coin and pushing the coin to the end of a table. the coin does not bounce. the coin does not lift off the table surface. the coin will slide to the table end.

if the die or dice are tossed so that they hit the table at least once then there is no slide. and if the dice bounce ounce off the table and reach (hit) the back wall, then it is a legal bounce.

dice setting, and a controlled throw is not cheating. don't even suggest it is.

A dead cat bounce? Do you mean a light toss so that the dice hit the table once and do not move, or, the dice are thrown lightly so they are trapped under the pyramids and do not bounce? here the key is did the dice fly in the air, and hit the back wall and table surface. if you can throw the dice lightly so they hit the table just under the pyramids and are trapped there it is a legal throw. if you mean the dice are thrown lightly, hit the table and stop dead but do not hit the back wall it is a "no roll."

guys: a "slide" is a slide. it has a definition-- the dice do not fly in the air, they do not bounce off the table surface, and that alone makes it illegal. It doesnt matter if the slide reaches the back wall because it fails to meet the other two out of three requirements for a legal throw.

by the way: one of the reasons why "new dice" are introduced to the table is that the sharp edges on new dice make it difficult if not impossible to slide the dice on the felt. sliding usually works best with worn dice on old table felts.

  • Jump to: