lilredrooster
lilredrooster
Joined: May 8, 2015
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October 1st, 2022 at 1:47:51 AM permalink
________________


this person from Quora makes a compelling argument
but I'm not by any means sure that he's correct
what is your opinion as to the accuracy of his claims____________?____________obviously his claim probably does not apply to games dealt by a live human dealer

.
" I have played blackjack for decades, all over the planet. From Vegas to Macau, from Atlantic City to Amsterdam, From Barcelona to the Borsch Belt. Read what I am about to write very carefully:

THESE GAMING SITES THAT ARE ON THE INTERNET ARE ALL - EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM - %100 RIGGED

The hosting web sites of Draftkings, Wynn, Golden Nugget, FanDual, MGM, et al, that market behind the glitzy stars and celebrities, without exception, subcontract to the “pseudo random number generating” publicly traded shills such as NetVent and SGP. These subcontracted operatives use algorithms that prohibit the player from winning any hand that is deemed ( by computer and player history ) as “substantial”

What does this mean? Stated simply, all players are profiled by there betting style. The algorithm is then translated to only allow for the lower amount of the player’s bets to win, or “streak”; often accompanied by the software parlance’s congratulatory promos ( ie., “you’ve won 5X in a row”! ). You gain no points for being a valued member, good sport, or whatever con game you run on yourself to rationalize addictive behavior.

Once that same player has been seduced to raising whatever standard bet they make, BANG, the algorithm clamps it’s virtual teeth: Suddenly, the player is steamrolled by BlackJacks and 6 card 21’s. The algorithm is easily discernible by any seasoned player and, as such, the losses can be limited. For example, by avoiding doubling down, regardless of what the dealer is showing as an up card, and avoiding ALL large chase bets, you are less likely to succumb to the avalanche of highly suspect hard beats. You will never win any money.

Those who do manage to stay afloat will, in time, succumb to the exorbitantly high play throughs and the ever expanding risk odds of these algorithms; regardless of how traditional the player is or whatever risk tolerance that’s been acquired. Don’t be stupid enough to believe these site’s insistence that they are “regulated”; to grease any politician costs maybe 100K, let alone some in jin Proudfoot on a tribal land.

Pony up the VIG, folks and stay exclusive to the respective Sportsbook’s. To venture into a virtual casino is an errand solely for the masochistically tolerant.

Good fortune shines no beacon here."


.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Oct 1, 2022
"believe half of what you see and none of what you hear" - Edgar Allan Poe
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 1st, 2022 at 2:35:40 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

________________


this person from Quora makes a compelling argument
but I'm not by any means sure that he's correct
what is your opinion as to the accuracy of his claims____________?____________obviously his claim probably does not apply to games dealt by a human dealer

.
" I have played blackjack for decades, all over the planet. From Vegas to Macau, from Atlantic City to Amsterdam, From Barcelona to the Borsch Belt. Read what I am about to write very carefully:

THESE GAMING SITES THAT ARE ON THE INTERNET ARE ALL - EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM - %100 RIGGED

The hosting web sites of Draftkings, Wynn, Golden Nugget, FanDual, MGM, et al, that market behind the glitzy stars and celebrities, without exception, subcontract to the “pseudo random number generating” publicly traded shills such as NetVent and SGP. These subcontracted operatives use algorithms that prohibit the player from winning any hand that is deemed ( by computer and player history ) as “substantial”

What does this mean? Stated simply, all players are profiled by there betting style. The algorithm is then translated to only allow for the lower amount of the player’s bets to win, or “streak”; often accompanied by the software parlance’s congratulatory promos ( ie., “you’ve won 5X in a row”! ). You gain no points for being a valued member, good sport, or whatever con game you run on yourself to rationalize addictive behavior.

Once that same player has been seduced to raising whatever standard bet they make, BANG, the algorithm clamps it’s virtual teeth: Suddenly, the player is steamrolled by BlackJacks and 6 card 21’s. The algorithm is easily discernible by any seasoned player and, as such, the losses can be limited. For example, by avoiding doubling down, regardless of what the dealer is showing as an up card, and avoiding ALL large chase bets, you are less likely to succumb to the avalanche of highly suspect hard beats. You will never win any money.

Those who do manage to stay afloat will, in time, succumb to the exorbitantly high play throughs and the ever expanding risk odds of these algorithms; regardless of how traditional the player is or whatever risk tolerance that’s been acquired. Don’t be stupid enough to believe these site’s insistence that they are “regulated”; to grease any politician costs maybe 100K, let alone some in jin Proudfoot on a tribal land.

Pony up the VIG, folks and stay exclusive to the respective Sportsbook’s. To venture into a virtual casino is an errand solely for the masochistically tolerant.

Good fortune shines no beacon here."


.
link to original post



Absolutely true on all computer run games. I cannot last 10 minutes on anything but live dealer. It's been that way for years. Because I know what the game I play looks like and what my expectations are I can spot a rigged game almost immediately. I only play live dealer and I only play the even chances because you can't rig those. Even if the dealer can somehow section shoot in roulette even chance is spread all over the wheel so does not affect your bet. But yes this guy is 100% correct all the algorithm games are rigged.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
OnceDear
OnceDear
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odiousgambitMentalTorghatten
October 1st, 2022 at 3:07:06 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: lilredrooster

________________


this person from Quora makes a compelling argument
but I'm not by any means sure that he's correct
what is your opinion as to the accuracy of his claims____________?____________obviously his claim probably does not apply to games dealt by a human dealer

.
" I ]link to original post

Absolutely true....


I absolutely disagree. I've played thousands of hours of recreational rng blackjack. stakes between. 1 and 100, often within the same session. I have every confidence in the rng games that I play.
The guy seems to have encountered the phenominum where he ups his stake to too large a fraction of his session BR and then busting out. Confirmation bias. That EvenBob insists that the guy is right only confirms to me that he is wrong
.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
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October 1st, 2022 at 3:54:16 AM permalink
That online games are rigged an often heard claim. I am surprised it is not standard practice for sites to use audited open source coding to prove otherwise. Maybe there is an untapped market for that. Maybe the business models are not compatible with fairly run games.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
Gandler
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OnceDear
October 1st, 2022 at 6:41:54 AM permalink
I find this hard to believe, States with online gambling have pretty strict checks in place. Casinos already consistently win, they do not need to jeopardize their (very hard to obtain) license by "rigging" a game to come out a certain way.

Players are certainly "profiled" by their bet size and frequency for reward points and promos. But, the idea that bet sizes are tracked for the purpose of only granting wins to the lower end of your bet range is absurd.

My guess is whoever wrote that was feeling bitter because he was using some progressive bet system, and after winning many flats in a row at the base unit, encountered several losses as he raised his bet.

Casinos do not need to cheat because they will already win. The idea of losing their license to gain a few more dollars slightly quicker would be an absurd trade off.

You will generally lose quicker at say online BJ compared to traditional BJ only because its dramatically faster, not because its rigged. The best BJ game is a slow one because you lose slower (and maximize comps).
TigerWu
TigerWu
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OnceDear
October 1st, 2022 at 7:55:44 AM permalink
No way this can be true, because if the games are rigged to just let you win small bets, then everyone would figure this out and ONLY make small bets and just clean up.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 1st, 2022 at 9:22:22 AM permalink
It all depends on what you mean by rigged. If a computer run game is registered as a slot machine and a lot of them are then they can do anything they want to make sure they get their percentage out of the game. All totally legal and they do not have to disclose it to the public. To me that's rigged. Live dealer games on the other hand they cannot do that with obviously. If you're just a random player which almost everybody is you will never be able to tell the difference. I have a very specific way of playing so I will know in a very short time what's going on. I cannot play the auto roulette games in my States online casinos because the outcomes behave differently than a live wheel. Save me the blah blah on your reaction to this, because in roulette I know what I'm doing and you probably do not.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
OnceDear
OnceDear
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AitchTheLetter
October 1st, 2022 at 9:33:04 AM permalink
Please don't hijack the thread, EvenBob
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
heatmap
heatmap
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October 1st, 2022 at 9:42:29 AM permalink
i absolutely think the answer to this being "yes" or "no" is dependent upon the jurisdiction and the peoples "words" that they use

they can say the word "rigged" but what they LEGALLY mean is "unfair"

they may be playing in a jurisdiction where they only allow "lottery" style games that look like blackjack and video poker - and they may have been fooled. This is what i think people mean by being rigged, as in if they were fooled and should have known better - which a majority are not informed of their jurisdictions legal obligations for the machines.

in pennsylvania their definition of random is this

https://www.pacodeandbulletin.gov/Display/pacode?file=/secure/pacode/data/058/chapter1112a/s1112a.1.html&searchunitkeywords=probabilities&origQuery=probabilities&operator=OR&title=058%20RECREATION

Quote:

Randomness—The observed unpredictability and absence of pattern in a set of elements or events that have definite probabilities of occurrence.



to me that means when i generate a random number i can do it with a probability table



and here is a bonus article i have frequently returned to where "class 2" slot machine logic is being explained in what i would consider to be a more "open" way

https://www.casinocenter.com/class-ii-is-it-fair/

Quote:

How do the payback percentages work? One of two ways, says Lombardo. In one style of game, the calculations relate to the stack of possible outcomes loaded into the central computer. In this style of game, there is always a 50-percent hit frequency—one of every two spins on average results in a bingo, with a prize determined from a finite pool of outcomes loaded into the computer. When the bingo game is over, the computer selects a prize from the top of an electronic “stack” and feeds it to one of the games with a winning outcome. To the player, it looks, for instance, like a mixed-bar win for $5. That just means a $5 prize has been awarded from the results of the bingo game.

The overall payback percentage in this case is governed by how many results equal to each prize amount are included in the finite stack of prizes. Just like the universe of numbers from which the random number generator in a regular slot selects reel outcomes, the payback percentage here is determined by the universe of prizes available for each winning result. The hit frequency is always 50 percent, but the payback percentage is determined by how many $2 prizes, how many 75-cent prizes, how many $1,000 prizes, and so on, are loaded into the program.

In a multiline video bingo game, this system results in a game virtually indistinguishable from that nine-line game in the Vegas casino that has a 50-percent hit frequency. According to Lombardo, though, this method is also used on some of the traditional single-line, three-reel slots. In this case, the 50-percent frequency still stands, but not every win is a traditional reel combination. Because traditional games like Blazing 7s or Red, White & Blue generally have hit frequencies around 14 percent for the seven or eight possible winning combinations in the pay schedule, a 50-percent frequency would be impossible and still have the game make money for the casino.
To remedy this, Lombardo explains, “we came up with a bonus feature.” Fourteen-percent of results in the pool will be actual reel combinations, and the other 36 percent of the winners will yield a bonus symbol on the reels that will accumulate. When you accumulate 25 of those symbols, you win one bonus credit. Therefore, you still have the 50-percent frequency, but your frequency of reel wins is similar to what it is in the traditional Class III versions of those games.

In the other style of game, the odds of each winning bingo pattern is matched to the odds of each paying combination in the slot game. “We figured out the odds of hitting certain patterns on the bingo card,” Lombardo explains, “and we take those bingo patterns and plug them right into the payout scheme to replicate any Class III game.” Drawing from millions of possible patterns on a bingo card, programmers can match the odds of landing any given combination of symbols on a slot machine. In this way, each chosen bingo pattern can trigger a certain payout combination. Hit frequencies and percentages in this case will match a traditional slot exactly.

But what are those payback percentages, and how do we know they are fair? As you may know, the Seminole tribe is a sovereign nation, and its casinos are not subject to state regulation or public reporting of payback percentages. How do we know we’re getting a fair shake?

We know we’re getting a fair shake because tribal casinos must compete with all other casino choices, says Lombardo. “We are competitive with all Class III markets,” he says. “We’re not doing anything differently (with percentages) than Atlantic City, Las Vegas or Mississippi. We are competitive with any casino in the country.” He adds that he takes average bets in lower denominations into account when determining the payback percentage he wants to offer. “If I am requiring players to cover the lines on a 20-line nickel game, that’s a dollar bet,” says Lombardo. “I take that into consideration when I figure out the payback percentage I offer.”

Lombardo adds that tribal casinos have obligations to both the players and the slot manufacturers to keep the games fair. “Over the long hall, any player is going to know if you screw with percentages; they’ll know the difference,” he says. “And, a manufacturer is not going to give us their title if we are going to misrepresent that title (with low payback). We don’t want to kill a title.”

It is that respect for the player—and obligation to represent a manufacturer’s title fairly—that should make you approach the slot experience at the Hard Rock or other large Class II tribal casinos with expectations similar to those you have when playing slots in most major jurisdictions. In other words, you are likely to get a fair shake. They know that if you don’t, you will go elsewhere.



a normal person reading this simply defaults to the word "rigged" no matter if they know their jurisdiction allows this or not

rigged is just the "buzz" word that everyone including me loves to use because its an easy word that conveys alot of information and gets your mind racing
Last edited by: heatmap on Oct 1, 2022
AxelWolf
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October 1st, 2022 at 1:53:28 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

No way this can be true, because if the games are rigged to just let you win small bets, then everyone would figure this out and ONLY make small bets and just clean up.
link to original post

This isn't necessarily true.

It's been a while so the details and timeline are somewhat fuzzy.


I think I have mentioned this before. What originally brought me to WOO and eventually this forum(before I ever made an account) was my internet search regarding Casino Bar. After a short session using a bonus, I was convinced the slots were NOT random. Apparently, The Wizard had already done a test and confirmed my suspension regarding that casino.

Fast-forward 5+ years later when I found another online that couldn't possibly be random, but this time I was able to exploit the nonrandomness while betting small.

Here's the gist. I got a small no-deposit bonus and proceeded to play it on low steaks video poker. The video poker had a double-up feature I was using in hopes that would count towards wagering requirements. At some point, I began to notice what seemed like a somewhat predictable pattern when doubling up. It seemed as if I knew when to double up with a significantly high win rate. My upward climbing account balance was reflecting that. Not convinced I wasn't just seeing things or getting lucky, confirmation bias, I showed my now Wife and a friend who lived close by(Not scientific, but I just wanted to see what they are noticing.) Whenever I moved up to higher denominations my results were absolutely terrible.

I can't remember how far back the hand history went, but I remember it wasn't really enough to be 100% certain. I printed out what was available anyways.

I had no experience with this casino, so I had no clue if they would pay under normal circumstances. I ran my account up to an amount I was hoping they would cash out without catching on, in the meantime think of a plan and come back to it later, once/if they paid.

I did get paid via check, unfortunately, I couldn't recreate the same situation.

After researching the casino software it lead me back to WOO where The Wizard deemed their software to be rigged.
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There's a well-known brand that I'm convinced allowed(past tense since it's been a while) you to win small bets.

I'll get to that later.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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