lilredrooster
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October 1st, 2022 at 1:47:51 AM permalink
________________


this person from Quora makes a compelling argument
but I'm not by any means sure that he's correct
what is your opinion as to the accuracy of his claims____________?____________obviously his claim probably does not apply to games dealt by a live human dealer

.
" I have played blackjack for decades, all over the planet. From Vegas to Macau, from Atlantic City to Amsterdam, From Barcelona to the Borsch Belt. Read what I am about to write very carefully:

THESE GAMING SITES THAT ARE ON THE INTERNET ARE ALL - EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM - %100 RIGGED

The hosting web sites of Draftkings, Wynn, Golden Nugget, FanDual, MGM, et al, that market behind the glitzy stars and celebrities, without exception, subcontract to the “pseudo random number generating” publicly traded shills such as NetVent and SGP. These subcontracted operatives use algorithms that prohibit the player from winning any hand that is deemed ( by computer and player history ) as “substantial”

What does this mean? Stated simply, all players are profiled by there betting style. The algorithm is then translated to only allow for the lower amount of the player’s bets to win, or “streak”; often accompanied by the software parlance’s congratulatory promos ( ie., “you’ve won 5X in a row”! ). You gain no points for being a valued member, good sport, or whatever con game you run on yourself to rationalize addictive behavior.

Once that same player has been seduced to raising whatever standard bet they make, BANG, the algorithm clamps it’s virtual teeth: Suddenly, the player is steamrolled by BlackJacks and 6 card 21’s. The algorithm is easily discernible by any seasoned player and, as such, the losses can be limited. For example, by avoiding doubling down, regardless of what the dealer is showing as an up card, and avoiding ALL large chase bets, you are less likely to succumb to the avalanche of highly suspect hard beats. You will never win any money.

Those who do manage to stay afloat will, in time, succumb to the exorbitantly high play throughs and the ever expanding risk odds of these algorithms; regardless of how traditional the player is or whatever risk tolerance that’s been acquired. Don’t be stupid enough to believe these site’s insistence that they are “regulated”; to grease any politician costs maybe 100K, let alone some in jin Proudfoot on a tribal land.

Pony up the VIG, folks and stay exclusive to the respective Sportsbook’s. To venture into a virtual casino is an errand solely for the masochistically tolerant.

Good fortune shines no beacon here."


.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Oct 1, 2022
Please don't feed the trolls
EvenBob
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October 1st, 2022 at 2:35:40 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

________________


this person from Quora makes a compelling argument
but I'm not by any means sure that he's correct
what is your opinion as to the accuracy of his claims____________?____________obviously his claim probably does not apply to games dealt by a human dealer

.
" I have played blackjack for decades, all over the planet. From Vegas to Macau, from Atlantic City to Amsterdam, From Barcelona to the Borsch Belt. Read what I am about to write very carefully:

THESE GAMING SITES THAT ARE ON THE INTERNET ARE ALL - EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM - %100 RIGGED

The hosting web sites of Draftkings, Wynn, Golden Nugget, FanDual, MGM, et al, that market behind the glitzy stars and celebrities, without exception, subcontract to the “pseudo random number generating” publicly traded shills such as NetVent and SGP. These subcontracted operatives use algorithms that prohibit the player from winning any hand that is deemed ( by computer and player history ) as “substantial”

What does this mean? Stated simply, all players are profiled by there betting style. The algorithm is then translated to only allow for the lower amount of the player’s bets to win, or “streak”; often accompanied by the software parlance’s congratulatory promos ( ie., “you’ve won 5X in a row”! ). You gain no points for being a valued member, good sport, or whatever con game you run on yourself to rationalize addictive behavior.

Once that same player has been seduced to raising whatever standard bet they make, BANG, the algorithm clamps it’s virtual teeth: Suddenly, the player is steamrolled by BlackJacks and 6 card 21’s. The algorithm is easily discernible by any seasoned player and, as such, the losses can be limited. For example, by avoiding doubling down, regardless of what the dealer is showing as an up card, and avoiding ALL large chase bets, you are less likely to succumb to the avalanche of highly suspect hard beats. You will never win any money.

Those who do manage to stay afloat will, in time, succumb to the exorbitantly high play throughs and the ever expanding risk odds of these algorithms; regardless of how traditional the player is or whatever risk tolerance that’s been acquired. Don’t be stupid enough to believe these site’s insistence that they are “regulated”; to grease any politician costs maybe 100K, let alone some in jin Proudfoot on a tribal land.

Pony up the VIG, folks and stay exclusive to the respective Sportsbook’s. To venture into a virtual casino is an errand solely for the masochistically tolerant.

Good fortune shines no beacon here."


.
link to original post



Absolutely true on all computer run games. I cannot last 10 minutes on anything but live dealer. It's been that way for years. Because I know what the game I play looks like and what my expectations are I can spot a rigged game almost immediately. I only play live dealer and I only play the even chances because you can't rig those. Even if the dealer can somehow section shoot in roulette even chance is spread all over the wheel so does not affect your bet. But yes this guy is 100% correct all the algorithm games are rigged.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
OnceDear
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October 1st, 2022 at 3:07:06 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: lilredrooster

________________


this person from Quora makes a compelling argument
but I'm not by any means sure that he's correct
what is your opinion as to the accuracy of his claims____________?____________obviously his claim probably does not apply to games dealt by a human dealer

.
" I ]link to original post

Absolutely true....


I absolutely disagree. I've played thousands of hours of recreational rng blackjack. stakes between. 1 and 100, often within the same session. I have every confidence in the rng games that I play.
The guy seems to have encountered the phenominum where he ups his stake to too large a fraction of his session BR and then busting out. Confirmation bias. That EvenBob insists that the guy is right only confirms to me that he is wrong
.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
BleedingChipsSlowly
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October 1st, 2022 at 3:54:16 AM permalink
That online games are rigged an often heard claim. I am surprised it is not standard practice for sites to use audited open source coding to prove otherwise. Maybe there is an untapped market for that. Maybe the business models are not compatible with fairly run games.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
Gandler
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October 1st, 2022 at 6:41:54 AM permalink
I find this hard to believe, States with online gambling have pretty strict checks in place. Casinos already consistently win, they do not need to jeopardize their (very hard to obtain) license by "rigging" a game to come out a certain way.

Players are certainly "profiled" by their bet size and frequency for reward points and promos. But, the idea that bet sizes are tracked for the purpose of only granting wins to the lower end of your bet range is absurd.

My guess is whoever wrote that was feeling bitter because he was using some progressive bet system, and after winning many flats in a row at the base unit, encountered several losses as he raised his bet.

Casinos do not need to cheat because they will already win. The idea of losing their license to gain a few more dollars slightly quicker would be an absurd trade off.

You will generally lose quicker at say online BJ compared to traditional BJ only because its dramatically faster, not because its rigged. The best BJ game is a slow one because you lose slower (and maximize comps).
TigerWu
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October 1st, 2022 at 7:55:44 AM permalink
No way this can be true, because if the games are rigged to just let you win small bets, then everyone would figure this out and ONLY make small bets and just clean up.
EvenBob
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October 1st, 2022 at 9:22:22 AM permalink
It all depends on what you mean by rigged. If a computer run game is registered as a slot machine and a lot of them are then they can do anything they want to make sure they get their percentage out of the game. All totally legal and they do not have to disclose it to the public. To me that's rigged. Live dealer games on the other hand they cannot do that with obviously. If you're just a random player which almost everybody is you will never be able to tell the difference. I have a very specific way of playing so I will know in a very short time what's going on. I cannot play the auto roulette games in my States online casinos because the outcomes behave differently than a live wheel. Save me the blah blah on your reaction to this, because in roulette I know what I'm doing and you probably do not.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
OnceDear
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October 1st, 2022 at 9:33:04 AM permalink
Please don't hijack the thread, EvenBob
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
heatmap
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October 1st, 2022 at 9:42:29 AM permalink
i absolutely think the answer to this being "yes" or "no" is dependent upon the jurisdiction and the peoples "words" that they use

they can say the word "rigged" but what they LEGALLY mean is "unfair"

they may be playing in a jurisdiction where they only allow "lottery" style games that look like blackjack and video poker - and they may have been fooled. This is what i think people mean by being rigged, as in if they were fooled and should have known better - which a majority are not informed of their jurisdictions legal obligations for the machines.

in pennsylvania their definition of random is this

https://www.pacodeandbulletin.gov/Display/pacode?file=/secure/pacode/data/058/chapter1112a/s1112a.1.html&searchunitkeywords=probabilities&origQuery=probabilities&operator=OR&title=058%20RECREATION

Quote:

Randomness—The observed unpredictability and absence of pattern in a set of elements or events that have definite probabilities of occurrence.



to me that means when i generate a random number i can do it with a probability table



and here is a bonus article i have frequently returned to where "class 2" slot machine logic is being explained in what i would consider to be a more "open" way

https://www.casinocenter.com/class-ii-is-it-fair/

Quote:

How do the payback percentages work? One of two ways, says Lombardo. In one style of game, the calculations relate to the stack of possible outcomes loaded into the central computer. In this style of game, there is always a 50-percent hit frequency—one of every two spins on average results in a bingo, with a prize determined from a finite pool of outcomes loaded into the computer. When the bingo game is over, the computer selects a prize from the top of an electronic “stack” and feeds it to one of the games with a winning outcome. To the player, it looks, for instance, like a mixed-bar win for $5. That just means a $5 prize has been awarded from the results of the bingo game.

The overall payback percentage in this case is governed by how many results equal to each prize amount are included in the finite stack of prizes. Just like the universe of numbers from which the random number generator in a regular slot selects reel outcomes, the payback percentage here is determined by the universe of prizes available for each winning result. The hit frequency is always 50 percent, but the payback percentage is determined by how many $2 prizes, how many 75-cent prizes, how many $1,000 prizes, and so on, are loaded into the program.

In a multiline video bingo game, this system results in a game virtually indistinguishable from that nine-line game in the Vegas casino that has a 50-percent hit frequency. According to Lombardo, though, this method is also used on some of the traditional single-line, three-reel slots. In this case, the 50-percent frequency still stands, but not every win is a traditional reel combination. Because traditional games like Blazing 7s or Red, White & Blue generally have hit frequencies around 14 percent for the seven or eight possible winning combinations in the pay schedule, a 50-percent frequency would be impossible and still have the game make money for the casino.
To remedy this, Lombardo explains, “we came up with a bonus feature.” Fourteen-percent of results in the pool will be actual reel combinations, and the other 36 percent of the winners will yield a bonus symbol on the reels that will accumulate. When you accumulate 25 of those symbols, you win one bonus credit. Therefore, you still have the 50-percent frequency, but your frequency of reel wins is similar to what it is in the traditional Class III versions of those games.

In the other style of game, the odds of each winning bingo pattern is matched to the odds of each paying combination in the slot game. “We figured out the odds of hitting certain patterns on the bingo card,” Lombardo explains, “and we take those bingo patterns and plug them right into the payout scheme to replicate any Class III game.” Drawing from millions of possible patterns on a bingo card, programmers can match the odds of landing any given combination of symbols on a slot machine. In this way, each chosen bingo pattern can trigger a certain payout combination. Hit frequencies and percentages in this case will match a traditional slot exactly.

But what are those payback percentages, and how do we know they are fair? As you may know, the Seminole tribe is a sovereign nation, and its casinos are not subject to state regulation or public reporting of payback percentages. How do we know we’re getting a fair shake?

We know we’re getting a fair shake because tribal casinos must compete with all other casino choices, says Lombardo. “We are competitive with all Class III markets,” he says. “We’re not doing anything differently (with percentages) than Atlantic City, Las Vegas or Mississippi. We are competitive with any casino in the country.” He adds that he takes average bets in lower denominations into account when determining the payback percentage he wants to offer. “If I am requiring players to cover the lines on a 20-line nickel game, that’s a dollar bet,” says Lombardo. “I take that into consideration when I figure out the payback percentage I offer.”

Lombardo adds that tribal casinos have obligations to both the players and the slot manufacturers to keep the games fair. “Over the long hall, any player is going to know if you screw with percentages; they’ll know the difference,” he says. “And, a manufacturer is not going to give us their title if we are going to misrepresent that title (with low payback). We don’t want to kill a title.”

It is that respect for the player—and obligation to represent a manufacturer’s title fairly—that should make you approach the slot experience at the Hard Rock or other large Class II tribal casinos with expectations similar to those you have when playing slots in most major jurisdictions. In other words, you are likely to get a fair shake. They know that if you don’t, you will go elsewhere.



a normal person reading this simply defaults to the word "rigged" no matter if they know their jurisdiction allows this or not

rigged is just the "buzz" word that everyone including me loves to use because its an easy word that conveys alot of information and gets your mind racing
Last edited by: heatmap on Oct 1, 2022
AxelWolf
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October 1st, 2022 at 1:53:28 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

No way this can be true, because if the games are rigged to just let you win small bets, then everyone would figure this out and ONLY make small bets and just clean up.
link to original post

This isn't necessarily true.

It's been a while so the details and timeline are somewhat fuzzy.


I think I have mentioned this before. What originally brought me to WOO and eventually this forum(before I ever made an account) was my internet search regarding Casino Bar. After a short session using a bonus, I was convinced the slots were NOT random. Apparently, The Wizard had already done a test and confirmed my suspension regarding that casino.

Fast-forward 5+ years later when I found another online that couldn't possibly be random, but this time I was able to exploit the nonrandomness while betting small.

Here's the gist. I got a small no-deposit bonus and proceeded to play it on low steaks video poker. The video poker had a double-up feature I was using in hopes that would count towards wagering requirements. At some point, I began to notice what seemed like a somewhat predictable pattern when doubling up. It seemed as if I knew when to double up with a significantly high win rate. My upward climbing account balance was reflecting that. Not convinced I wasn't just seeing things or getting lucky, confirmation bias, I showed my now Wife and a friend who lived close by(Not scientific, but I just wanted to see what they are noticing.) Whenever I moved up to higher denominations my results were absolutely terrible.

I can't remember how far back the hand history went, but I remember it wasn't really enough to be 100% certain. I printed out what was available anyways.

I had no experience with this casino, so I had no clue if they would pay under normal circumstances. I ran my account up to an amount I was hoping they would cash out without catching on, in the meantime think of a plan and come back to it later, once/if they paid.

I did get paid via check, unfortunately, I couldn't recreate the same situation.

After researching the casino software it lead me back to WOO where The Wizard deemed their software to be rigged.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There's a well-known brand that I'm convinced allowed(past tense since it's been a while) you to win small bets.

I'll get to that later.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mental
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October 1st, 2022 at 3:38:15 PM permalink
The beauty of online gaming is that you can retrieve every single bet from the transaction log and save it on your own computer. For BJ, most sites log a split or double as a separate bet. Many sites offer the ability to replay a hand or a slot game.

My online results have been fabulous, partly because I have run really good when the big bets go out. However, I would definitely analyze the logs if I ever had any qualms about any particular operator or game.

There is not one bit of data supporting the original claim or EB's claim. That is enough for me to dismiss these claims as noise that would just distract me from the task at hand..
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Dieter
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October 1st, 2022 at 5:45:34 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

It all depends on what you mean by rigged. If a computer run game is registered as a slot machine and a lot of them are then they can do anything they want to make sure they get their percentage out of the game. All totally legal and they do not have to disclose it to the public.
link to original post



[citation needed]
May the cards fall in your favor.
lilredrooster
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October 2nd, 2022 at 9:29:23 AM permalink
Quote: Mental



There is not one bit of data supporting the original claim .

link to original post




.
I don't know why you would post this right after Axel's post which included this:

"After researching the casino software it lead me back to WOO where The Wizard deemed their software to be rigged."

I believe Axel is a trustworthy member - and Wizard is a trustworthy leader - who would surely rebut what Axel said if for any reason he believed it not to be accurate

.
Quote: Mental



My online results have been fabulous, partly because I have run really good when the big bets go outhand..

link to original post



that is confirmation bias - you haven't experienced even one one hundredth of one percent of what is avalable online


.
Please don't feed the trolls
Mental
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October 2nd, 2022 at 10:28:48 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: Mental



There is not one bit of data supporting the original claim .

link to original post




.
I don't know why you would post this right after Axel's post which included this:

"After researching the casino software it lead me back to WOO where The Wizard deemed their software to be rigged."]



I am clearly not referring to Axel's post.

The original claim is "THESE GAMING SITES THAT ARE ON THE INTERNET ARE ALL - EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM - %100 RIGGED"

Even a dozen proven cases of rigging over the history of online gaming does not support the original claim (the first post in this thread).

EB's subsequent claim that " If a computer run game is registered as a slot machine and a lot of them are then they can do anything they want to make sure they get their percentage out of the game. All totally legal and they do not have to disclose it to the public." seems to be a confusion about Class II slot machines. Certainly, it is not legal to replace Class III games with Class II games. The public should know when they enter a VLT parlor. It is no secret.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
lilredrooster
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October 2nd, 2022 at 10:34:04 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: Mental



There is not one bit of data supporting the original claim .

link to original post




.
I don't know why you would post this right after Axel's post which included this:

"After researching the casino software it lead me back to WOO where The Wizard deemed their software to be rigged."]



I am clearly not referring to Axel's post.

The original claim is "THESE GAMING SITES THAT ARE ON THE INTERNET ARE ALL - EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM - %100 RIGGED"

link to original post




he clearly exaggerated in that statement - that doesn't mean his entire post is BS

I never mentioned EB's claim -

.
Please don't feed the trolls
Dieter
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October 2nd, 2022 at 10:54:46 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Certainly, it is not legal to replace Class III games with Class II games. The public should know when they enter a VLT parlor. It is no secret.
link to original post



I can think of one tribal casino that freely comingles Class II and Class III on the gaming floor. I don't recall any particular signage on the door or labelling on the machines.

Nothing* against the place; the VP all appears to be legit (with mediocre paytables). Anyone who cares can usually look at a machine and recognize which type it is, the house just isn't making a big deal that half their games are Bingo.

*: There are things I don't like, but those can be attributed to subjective aesthetic preference, rather than moral turpitude.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Mental
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October 2nd, 2022 at 11:01:17 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

________________

this person from Quora makes a compelling argument
but I'm not by any means sure that he's correct
what is your opinion as to the accuracy of his claims____________?____________obviously his claim probably does not apply to games dealt by a live human dealer

link to original post



You are asking for an opinion, and I am providing one. I have played extensively on every site mentioned in the claim. I am quite happy that I am getting the expected RTP for the games that I play. If anything, I have done better with big bets than small bets. Is this 'a compelling argument' that there is no algorithm? Maybe there is an algorithm exists, but my betting style defeated the algo?

I have seen cheating exposed before, but it always involved analysis of data, not some claim generated out of paranoia.

DK provides a log under myaccount/transactions like this:

September XX, 2022 4:01pm Winnings
Casino win DraftKings Multihand Blackjack
ID XXX Casino +$825.00 $XX,XXX.XX

September XX, 2022 4:01pm Wagers and Entry Fees and Purchases
Casino stake DraftKings Multihand Blackjack
ID XXX Casino -$50.00 $XX,XXX.XX

September XX, 2022 4:01pm Wagers and Entry Fees and Purchases
Casino stake DraftKings Multihand Blackjack
ID XXX Casino -$350.00 $XX,XXX.XX

Every initial bet and subsequent added bet is recorded followed by the winnings paid, if any. Every site offers to provide a full gaming history on request. I use these logs to file my taxes. They always appear to be complete and accurate to the penny. It is a simple matter for someone with programming skills to parse these logs and see if the results are outside the bounds of randomness. Then you can make a claim backed by data. Until then, it is just a rant by a loser.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
lilredrooster
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October 2nd, 2022 at 12:22:50 PM permalink
_____________


the real question - which unfortunately I didn't make clear in my OP - is this:

is there a substantial risk of being dealt an unfair game online_____?

Mental's experience doesn't convince me of anything
the guy from Quora's experience doesn't convince me of anything

I don't know the answer

I think the answer may be unknowable - there is just not enough hard info out there

and I hate to admit it - but now I think the whole thread was just a waste of time


.
Please don't feed the trolls
Mental
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October 2nd, 2022 at 1:04:23 PM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

_____________

the real question - which unfortunately I didn't make clear in my OP - is this:

is there a substantial risk of being dealt an unfair game online_____?

Mental's experience doesn't convince me of anything
the guy from Quora's experience doesn't convince me of anything

I don't know the answer

I think the answer may be unknowable - there is just not enough hard info out there

and I hate to admit it - but now I think the whole thread was just a waste of time

link to original post



In the 2007 scandal involving the poker room “Absolute Poker”, the hand histories from a single-tournament were enough to provide conclusive evidence of cheating.

Anyone who feels they are cheated by online sites should simply present the evidence of their own gaming logs. Once they have the software to analyze their own data, they should be able to corroborate quickly by looking at data from other players. Gaming Enforcement can also get the data. It would be easy to nail the perps.

Hardly unknowable. There is a vast amount of data out there.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Dieter
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October 2nd, 2022 at 1:17:35 PM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

_____________


the real question - which unfortunately I didn't make clear in my OP - is this:

is there a substantial risk of being dealt an unfair game online_____?

Mental's experience doesn't convince me of anything
the guy from Quora's experience doesn't convince me of anything

I don't know the answer

I think the answer may be unknowable - there is just not enough hard info out there

and I hate to admit it - but now I think the whole thread was just a waste of time


.
link to original post



If you're going to play online, I suggest avoiding some of the offshore unregulated casinos.

It is probably worth checking that you're not about to deposit with a blacklisted casino.

Those playtesting videos that pop up from time to time do serve a purpose. They demonstrate that someone was able to satisfy KYC, deposit, play, and withdraw at least once.

Pretty much all casino games favor the house. Jumping from "I didn't win" to "They must be cheating!" seems extreme.

The time to worry is payout irregularities, or winnings voided from your account, or a book allowing losing wagers to be placed while the slow wheel times out before a winning wager could be recorded. That stuff is hinky.
May the cards fall in your favor.
EvenBob
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October 2nd, 2022 at 1:46:22 PM permalink
Quote: Mental



There is not one bit of data supporting the original claim or EB's claim. That is enough for me to dismiss these claims as noise that would just distract me from the task at hand..
link to original post



All I can speak for is roulette I've no idea about any other casino games. When they first put in the Bally roulette machines that looked exactly like the game of roulette I started testing them and a casino employee who knew me asked me what I was doing. Didn't I know these machines were rigged to pay off like slot machines? That they were registered with the State as slot machines and we're programmed to always turn a profit. I remember about a month after that I was walking by them and I noticed that somebody's last bet has been to put 50 Cent on every number including zeros and leave number 2 with no bet. Guess what the winning number was? Number 2. When those machines were first installed you couldn't find one that somebody wasn't playing and 2 months later nobody was playing because you couldn't win like you do in regular roulette
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
darkoz
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October 2nd, 2022 at 2:26:33 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Mental



There is not one bit of data supporting the original claim or EB's claim. That is enough for me to dismiss these claims as noise that would just distract me from the task at hand..
link to original post



All I can speak for is roulette I've no idea about any other casino games. When they first put in the Bally roulette machines that looked exactly like the game of roulette I started testing them and a casino employee who knew me asked me what I was doing. Didn't I know these machines were rigged to pay off like slot machines? That they were registered with the State as slot machines and we're programmed to always turn a profit. I remember about a month after that I was walking by them and I noticed that somebody's last bet has been to put 50 Cent on every number including zeros and leave number 2 with no bet. Guess what the winning number was? Number 2. When those machines were first installed you couldn't find one that somebody wasn't playing and 2 months later nobody was playing because you couldn't win like you do in regular roulette
link to original post



Ask any real AP what to do when an employee shares their knowledge and it's absolutely DO NOT believe them because 99% of Casino employees are clueless and handing out bad information.

So when someone who claims AP skills mentions how they received guidance from a casino employee, any employee, I go "yep, that's not an advantage Player."
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
gordonm888
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October 2nd, 2022 at 3:06:28 PM permalink
In this forum, whenever anyone accuses a casino of cheating at a game such as BJ, the usual WOV suspects start posting that millions of hands are necessary to accumulate the kind of statistics that are necessary to conclude that a game is unfair. That's the reasoning used by salaried casino advocates on this WOV forum to squash any claims of crooked casino games.

Therefore, it is simply fanciful nonsense that your personal hand histories from an online casino are enough to demonstrate that an online BJ game is unfair. Because you haven't played millions of hands. Bad results overs tens of thousands of hands are explainable as simply bad variance.

Hand histories in poker are different, because they can exhibit online players making inexplicable decisions to consistently win hands.

Would anyone doubt this statement:

Ever since we have had an internet, there have always been online casinos with unfair games. There may (or may not) be jurisdictions where online games are well regulated, but there have always been online casinos headquartered in the Caribbean, and other parts of the world where regulations are just a rumor and where 'game integrity' is a lie. There are so many nations where corruption is a way of life and where regulators can be bribed to look the other way, I don't see how anyone can sit in their wide chairs here in the US and make some of the statements that were made earlier in this thread.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
EvenBob
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October 2nd, 2022 at 4:42:47 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz



Ask any real AP what to do when an employee shares their knowledge and it's absolutely DO NOT believe them because 99% of Casino employees are clueless and handing out bad information.

So when someone who claims AP skills mentions how they received guidance from a casino employee, any employee, I go "yep, that's not an advantage Player."
link to original post



The guy who told me was an assistant manager for slots so he knew what he was talking about. He was also somebody that I knew when he worked at another casino so we were on a very friendly basis. I would trust anything he told me.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
OnceDear
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October 2nd, 2022 at 4:59:03 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: darkoz



Ask any real AP what to do when an employee shares their knowledge and it's absolutely DO NOT believe them because 99% of Casino employees are clueless and handing out bad information.

So when someone who claims AP skills mentions how they received guidance from a casino employee, any employee, I go "yep, that's not an advantage Player."
link to original post



The guy who told me was an assistant manager for slots so he knew what he was talking about. He was also somebody that I knew when he worked at another casino so we were on a very friendly basis. I would trust anything he told me.
link to original post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
darkoz
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October 2nd, 2022 at 5:16:59 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: darkoz



Ask any real AP what to do when an employee shares their knowledge and it's absolutely DO NOT believe them because 99% of Casino employees are clueless and handing out bad information.

So when someone who claims AP skills mentions how they received guidance from a casino employee, any employee, I go "yep, that's not an advantage Player."
link to original post



The guy who told me was an assistant manager for slots so he knew what he was talking about. He was also somebody that I knew when he worked at another casino so we were on a very friendly basis. I would trust anything he told me.
link to original post



I don't doubt your friend believed he was telling you correct information.

I'm just stating that most Casino employees are completely in the dark as to how things work. This applies to assistant management as well.

Part of the problem with Casino employees is they don't care. It's a job to them and they aren't studying the facts.

It's highly likely the assistant manager you trust was himself told this information from another employee he believes and a cycle of inaccurate information is ongoing.

The Last thing an assistant manager is doing is research into how games on their floors work. They are simply interested in patrons dropping money and helping their manager make a profit.

When Casino employees go home they place their minds on everything but their jobs. The football game, how to cheat on their spouse, what to have for dinner, etc.

Advantage Players however, when they leave the casino are concentrated nearly non-stop on how to use their information to take down the Casinos.

It's more than a job to Advantage Players. It's a mission.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
EvenBob
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October 2nd, 2022 at 5:18:59 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: darkoz



Ask any real AP what to do when an employee shares their knowledge and it's absolutely DO NOT believe them because 99% of Casino employees are clueless and handing out bad information.

So when someone who claims AP skills mentions how they received guidance from a casino employee, any employee, I go "yep, that's not an advantage Player."
link to original post



The guy who told me was an assistant manager for slots so he knew what he was talking about. He was also somebody that I knew when he worked at another casino so we were on a very friendly basis. I would trust anything he told me.
link to original post



I don't doubt your friend believed he was telling you correct information.

I'm just stating that most Casino employees are completely in the dark as to how things work. This applies to assistant management as well.

Part of the problem with Casino employees is they don't care. It's a job to them and they aren't studying the facts.

It's highly likely the assistant manager you trust was himself told this information from another employee he believes and a cycle of inaccurate information is ongoing.

The Last thing an assistant manager is doing is research into how games on their floors work. They are simply interested in patrons dropping money and helping their manager make a profit.

When Casino employees go home they place their minds on everything but their jobs. The football game, how to cheat in their spouse, what to have for dinner, etc.

Advantage Players however, when they leave the casino are concentrated nearly non-stop on how to use their information to take down the Casinos.

It's more than a job to Advantage Players. It's a mission.
link to original post



Let me think. Who do I trust somebody who I've known works for the casinos for years and years or you, somebody I've never met who has a history of questionable tall tales and writes poor fiction stories. Boy that's a tough one.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
darkoz
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October 2nd, 2022 at 5:30:47 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: darkoz

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: darkoz



Ask any real AP what to do when an employee shares their knowledge and it's absolutely DO NOT believe them because 99% of Casino employees are clueless and handing out bad information.

So when someone who claims AP skills mentions how they received guidance from a casino employee, any employee, I go "yep, that's not an advantage Player."
link to original post



The guy who told me was an assistant manager for slots so he knew what he was talking about. He was also somebody that I knew when he worked at another casino so we were on a very friendly basis. I would trust anything he told me.
link to original post



I don't doubt your friend believed he was telling you correct information.

I'm just stating that most Casino employees are completely in the dark as to how things work. This applies to assistant management as well.

Part of the problem with Casino employees is they don't care. It's a job to them and they aren't studying the facts.

It's highly likely the assistant manager you trust was himself told this information from another employee he believes and a cycle of inaccurate information is ongoing.

The Last thing an assistant manager is doing is research into how games on their floors work. They are simply interested in patrons dropping money and helping their manager make a profit.

When Casino employees go home they place their minds on everything but their jobs. The football game, how to cheat in their spouse, what to have for dinner, etc.

Advantage Players however, when they leave the casino are concentrated nearly non-stop on how to use their information to take down the Casinos.

It's more than a job to Advantage Players. It's a mission.
link to original post



Let me think. Who do I trust somebody who I've known works for the casinos for years and years or you, somebody I've never met who has a history of questionable tall tales and writes poor fiction stories. Boy that's a tough one.
link to original post



I'm sure it's not a tough one for you but will still be the wrong one for you.

You always seem to make bad decisions because you take information in improperly.

For example above your proof that there is a cheat is you observed someone bet every number except the "2" and that's the number that hit.

Described that way you draw everyone to be suspicious, I suppose.

What information you miss is what did the Patron who left, play prior to the spin they left behind? For all you know they covered every number except the "2" for fifty spins, made a fifty unit profit and then hit the "2" finally giving back 35 units.

You don't know!

And yet you make a quite distinctive judgement based on this ridiculous lack of information.

If detectives worked the way you do the law enforcement of this country would be thousands of years behind.

Collection and collation of multiple facts, not one singular instance with lack of knowledge prior and maybe you will become a more trustworthy source.

For now, you are just the poster on WOV who makes ridiculous conclusions.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MichaelBluejay
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October 2nd, 2022 at 5:44:02 PM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

this person from Quora makes a compelling argument

Stated simply, all players are profiled by there betting style....

BANG, the algorithm clamps it’s virtual teeth


link to original post

You find a post by someone who offers absolutely no evidence, and who can't spell simple words like "their" and "its", to be compelling? Is your criteria:

"someone said something" = "compelling"

?
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AxelWolf
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October 2nd, 2022 at 5:55:50 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: darkoz

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: darkoz



Ask any real AP what to do when an employee shares their knowledge and it's absolutely DO NOT believe them because 99% of Casino employees are clueless and handing out bad information.

So when someone who claims AP skills mentions how they received guidance from a casino employee, any employee, I go "yep, that's not an advantage Player."
link to original post



The guy who told me was an assistant manager for slots so he knew what he was talking about. He was also somebody that I knew when he worked at another casino so we were on a very friendly basis. I would trust anything he told me.
link to original post



I don't doubt your friend believed he was telling you correct information.

I'm just stating that most Casino employees are completely in the dark as to how things work. This applies to assistant management as well.

Part of the problem with Casino employees is they don't care. It's a job to them and they aren't studying the facts.

It's highly likely the assistant manager you trust was himself told this information from another employee he believes and a cycle of inaccurate information is ongoing.

The Last thing an assistant manager is doing is research into how games on their floors work. They are simply interested in patrons dropping money and helping their manager make a profit.

When Casino employees go home they place their minds on everything but their jobs. The football game, how to cheat in their spouse, what to have for dinner, etc.

Advantage Players however, when they leave the casino are concentrated nearly non-stop on how to use their information to take down the Casinos.

It's more than a job to Advantage Players. It's a mission.
link to original post



Let me think. Who do I trust somebody who I've known works for the casinos for years and years or you, somebody I've never met who has a history of questionable tall tales and writes poor fiction stories. Boy that's a tough one.
link to original post

Casino management is oftentimes ignorant. I had a friend/ next door neighbor who was a lead slot technician. He was about 13 years my senior. He was a fairly intelligent logical person with a computer background. No noticeable drug habits. He was a fairly normal guy.

When it came to slots, keno and video poker He had all kinds of crazy theories how the machines worked. He told me how he could beat the slots and Video Poker using his methods.

So why is it he was occasionally working for me on plays?

Why was it he went broke playing slots and eventually lost his job and occasionally borrowing money?


I mean, come on, he was a slot technician with inside information "and knew how to beat slot machines".

Eventually, he ended up working for a company responsible for cleaning up and trasnsporing dead bodies after car wrecks and whatnot. At firs,t he seemed good with all that, but eventually That job really got to him. One day he decided to sell everything (I even bought his 280 Z) and had to move far from Vgeas.

One of his theories was the fact that you could know when a Royal Flush/jackpot was coming if you could count the number of prior hands/spins and start playing at the end of the cycle when it was due.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mental
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October 2nd, 2022 at 6:22:18 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

In this forum, whenever anyone accuses a casino of cheating at a game such as BJ, the usual WOV suspects start posting that millions of hands are necessary to accumulate the kind of statistics that are necessary to conclude that a game is unfair. That's the reasoning used by salaried casino advocates on this WOV forum to squash any claims of crooked casino games.

Therefore, it is simply fanciful nonsense that your personal hand histories from an online casino are enough to demonstrate that an online BJ game is unfair. Because you haven't played millions of hands. Bad results overs tens of thousands of hands are explainable as simply bad variance.

Hand histories in poker are different, because they can exhibit online players making inexplicable decisions to consistently win hands.

Would anyone doubt this statement:

Ever since we have had an internet, there have always been online casinos with unfair games. There may (or may not) be jurisdictions where online games are well regulated, but there have always been online casinos headquartered in the Caribbean, and other parts of the world where regulations are just a rumor and where 'game integrity' is a lie. There are so many nations where corruption is a way of life and where regulators can be bribed to look the other way, I don't see how anyone can sit in their wide chairs here in the US and make some of the statements that were made earlier in this thread.
link to original post



The OP refers to Draftkings, Wynn, Golden Nugget, FanDual, MGM, not some sketchy island operator.

The description of the algorithm does not imply subtle EV shaving. It describes dropping the hammer on the poor sap who raises his bet. We are not talking millions of hands to uncover the hammer algorithm.

Besides, how uncommon is it for a serious player to acquire a million hands of BJ? I have played many millions of deals of VP games and even more spins of slot machines.

The number of logged hands analyzed rigorously by the claimant in the OP is apparently zero.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
MichaelBluejay
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MentalOnceDear
October 2nd, 2022 at 6:31:46 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

The OP refers to Draftkings, Wynn, Golden Nugget, FanDual, MGM, not some sketchy island operator.

No, he's talking about ALL of them:

Quote:

THESE GAMING SITES THAT ARE ON THE INTERNET ARE ALL - EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM - %100 RIGGED (link)



After his reference to Draftkings, Wynn, etc., it said et al ("and others").

It's a ridiculous claim.
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EvenBob
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October 2nd, 2022 at 9:35:47 PM permalink
One of the dead giveaways on the air ball machine that it was registered with the state as a slot machine was if you won more than $1,200 on any bet they had to come around and pay you in person with cash after you filled out the tax forms just like you do on a slot machine. Just like my friend who works for the casino said. Same with Bally roulette machines, they were just glorified slot machines and none of the roulette players would play them after a while cuz you can't win on them in the same way you win at regular roulette. About 2010 they pulled the air ball roulette out of Four Winds Casino because two of the guys who repaired it from a firm based in Chicago figured out how the algorithm worked and they figured out how to win on it and took it for a couple hundred thousand dollars. There was a court case against them and I never heard how it turned out but the casino pulled the machine.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
darkoz
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October 2nd, 2022 at 9:41:24 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

One of the dead giveaways on the air ball machine that it was registered with the state as a slot machine was if you won more than $1,200 on any bet they had to come around and pay you in person with cash after you filled out the tax forms just like you do on a slot machine. Just like my friend who works for the casino said. Same with Bally roulette machines, they were just glorified slot machines and none of the roulette players would play them after a while cuz you can't win on them in the same way you win at regular roulette. About 2010 they pulled the air ball roulette out of Four Winds Casino because two of the guys who repaired it from a firm based in Chicago figured out how the algorithm worked and they figured out how to win on it and took it for a couple hundred thousand dollars. There was a court case against them and I never heard how it turned out but the casino pulled the machine.
link to original post



Can't find any evidence this happened.

Can you supply a link
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
EvenBob
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October 3rd, 2022 at 2:07:07 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: EvenBob

One of the dead giveaways on the air ball machine that it was registered with the state as a slot machine was if you won more than $1,200 on any bet they had to come around and pay you in person with cash after you filled out the tax forms just like you do on a slot machine. Just like my friend who works for the casino said. Same with Bally roulette machines, they were just glorified slot machines and none of the roulette players would play them after a while cuz you can't win on them in the same way you win at regular roulette. About 2010 they pulled the air ball roulette out of Four Winds Casino because two of the guys who repaired it from a firm based in Chicago figured out how the algorithm worked and they figured out how to win on it and took it for a couple hundred thousand dollars. There was a court case against them and I never heard how it turned out but the casino pulled the machine.
link to original post



Can't find any evidence this happened.

Can you supply a link
link to original post



I'm remembering now, they did not pull the machine right away. What they did was lowered the time did you had to make a bet down to 10 seconds. I kid you not. That did not work out so they pulled the machine entirely. Them beating the algorithm had something to do with how much time they had in between bets. Like I said it was a long time ago could have been 2008.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AxelWolf
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October 3rd, 2022 at 3:08:21 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: darkoz

Quote: EvenBob

One of the dead giveaways on the air ball machine that it was registered with the state as a slot machine was if you won more than $1,200 on any bet they had to come around and pay you in person with cash after you filled out the tax forms just like you do on a slot machine. Just like my friend who works for the casino said. Same with Bally roulette machines, they were just glorified slot machines and none of the roulette players would play them after a while cuz you can't win on them in the same way you win at regular roulette. About 2010 they pulled the air ball roulette out of Four Winds Casino because two of the guys who repaired it from a firm based in Chicago figured out how the algorithm worked and they figured out how to win on it and took it for a couple hundred thousand dollars. There was a court case against them and I never heard how it turned out but the casino pulled the machine.
link to original post



Can't find any evidence this happened.

Can you supply a link
link to original post



I'm remembering now, they did not pull the machine right away. What they did was lowered the time did you had to make a bet down to 10 seconds. I kid you not. That did not work out so they pulled the machine entirely. Them beating the algorithm had something to do with how much time they had in between bets. Like I said it was a long time ago could have been 2008.
link to original post

Beating the Algorithm or clocking the wheel? I know they were lowering the amount of time you had to bet and changing the wheel speeds to prevent people from wheel clocking. Link, please? There were all kinds of various theories about organic roulette and the others but never have we seen any proof.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
BillHasRetired
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October 4th, 2022 at 12:29:55 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay
link to original post


For a minute, I thought you had typed "Heresy". (sigh) I've been reading too much David Weber.
ViennaPizza
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October 4th, 2022 at 2:56:37 AM permalink
Quora used to be legit, but nowadays it has turned into an echo chamber
AxelWolf
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October 4th, 2022 at 5:49:07 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

No way this can be true, because if the games are rigged to just let you win small bets, then everyone would figure this out and ONLY make small bets and just clean up.
link to original post

In general I agree with this, however...

Ladies and gentlemen, the story you are about to hear is true. Only the names( probably lots of other stuff too)have been changed to protect the innocent(Me). I'm sure I have forgotten some details as it's been a long time.

I won't publicly mention the name of the casino, but it's a well-known respected offshore online casino.

After quite a bit of blackjack play online, I began to notice small bets between $1-$10(I think I mostly kept it under $7) and was winning at a noticeable above-average rate. This seemed to happen soon after a new deposit once the account had been dormant for a long while, or on a new account.

I know you are going to ask... why not just sit and play $1-$10 a hand all day and rack up the big money? Well yeah, that makes perfect sense, and I certainly would, if I could. Unfortunately, there seems to have been a trigger point that kicked in a..... take-down/normal mode. I believe that amount to have been around $200, in my case, that's what kept coming up.

Of course, none of this is actual evidence, it could have all just been confirmation bias, and crazy thinking, I even had some doubt myself.

I wasn't about to invest the time and energy to 100% confirm my theory. I wasn't really all that interested in making a few hundred extra dollars from time to time, especially, just on my experience and speculation. There was a much better opportunity at this particular casino, so it just added a little extra to my earnings from time to time.

Under my guidance, My girlfriend(now wifey) was able to recreate the same results by playing blackjack within those parameters.

Eventually, I referred a few close non-AP friends(probably around 10) to the website being that the casino had some good bonuses and fair payables on their games, such as 9/6 jacks VP. with initial instructions, all of them were able to make between $150 and $200 from just playing blackjack alone.

With one particular friend and aspiring AP, I never mentioned anything about my theory, I just told him to play blackjack and never exceed betting more than $8. He asked why not bet more than $8. I just said it was to avoid variance, let's just get this out of the way and get to the good stuff. After a week or so we meet up and I asked him how it was going at the casino and asked if he had noticed anything. I told him before you start, I already know what you are going to say, but carry on. Sure enough, he began to tell me how it's letting you win way above average on smaller bets.

Note: They had what should have been a good BJ promo. Betting larger amounts than I would normally, was the way to go, or so I thought. While betting $25 ++ I was getting absolutely crushed and went on one of my longest losing steaks while playing blackjack ever. I never again played any blackjack over $20 a hand. Usually, l kept it under $10. Again, this could all just be selective memory and confirmation bias. But, I wasn't about to take any chances. Just way too many losing hands in a row. LLLLLLLLLLW LLLLLLLLWLLLLLLWLLLLLL Not <<<Not accurate, but you get the point.

A "respected" member here independently came up with a similar theory about abnormally winning small bets about this particular online casino.

My theory is that they don't mind if they might possibly lose a few hundred to some new players. For the most part, people are going to be hooked if they are winning winning winning while playing blackjack. They will be coming back for more seeking that elusive winning streak they once remembered.

On top of that, most people are going to start betting higher amounts if they keep winning. Most people are going to play slots and other games while being locked into whatever high wagering requirements they have from bonuses.


At some point a different theory was popping up that this casino blackjack was rigged to lose, I highly speculate they were making larger than normal bets. This was making some small waves and I was asked to do some testing. I agreed to do the test, but I disagreed with the test since I was asked to bet small and only track certain things. I told those who asked that I was undoubtedly going to win money. I can't even remember if I actually won(I would have to look at old notes, texts and emails), but I do know I ran better than expected, and of course, it didn't show anything amiss.


I think they have some type of program that can detect your normal play, account balance, and various other things and it can adjust itself accordingly, so as not to be so obvious.

example: I'm convinced that if you normally play a few bucks a hand on blackjack or whatever, then you suddenly jump your bets to a large amount... you are F'ed. If you somehow have the funds to continue betting higher amounts it will adjust itself back to some normal resemblance of play.

None of this is proof of anything, it's all circumstantial. No doubt I'm off base with some of my theories and correct about some. Whatever the case, it served me well. I'm always cautious when playing unregulated online casinos, But if you are an AP or just like some value, I think it's foolish to avoid playing online.

What people may not realize is the fact that many regulated and unregulated online casinos have much much better RTPS than B&M casinos.

NO, It's not all rigged like Even Bob is suggesting. You can absolutely win and get paid while playing online. Do your research and stick to the top 20 online casinos, stick to well-known software providers. READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS. After a while, you can skip through very quickly and identify the key terms that relate to your play and bonuses, such as the max bet allowed while using a particular bonus.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mental
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October 4th, 2022 at 7:01:41 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


After quite a bit of blackjack play online, I began to notice small bets between $1-$10(I think I mostly kept it under $7) and was winning at a noticeable above-average rate. This seemed to happen soon after a new deposit once the account had been dormant for a long while, or on a new account.
link to original post



And you never bothered to log your play? Even if the offshore casino did not offer transaction logs, I would have written my own logger if I thought there was an algo that could be exploited.
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AxelWolf
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October 4th, 2022 at 7:45:12 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: AxelWolf


After quite a bit of blackjack play online, I began to notice small bets between $1-$10(I think I mostly kept it under $7) and was winning at a noticeable above-average rate. This seemed to happen soon after a new deposit once the account had been dormant for a long while, or on a new account.
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And you never bothered to log your play? Even if the offshore casino did not offer transaction logs, I would have written my own logger if I thought there was an algo that could be exploited.
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No, and I don't believe they had much of a personal hand history log available if any. As I said, there was something much more lucrative and that was my main focus.

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about programming or coding.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
7NeverWins
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October 4th, 2022 at 9:54:46 AM permalink
I've noticed certain patterns with Electronic Blackjack tables, but I doubt that it's fully "rigged". Of course it's frustrating to be dealt hard 14-16 three hands in a row while the dealer shows a picture card and nearly always has a picture card underneath.

I've even questioned the validity of parlor games such as Infinite Blackjack. Which are dealt live, but it is One on One, you never see the cards shuffled and they are always placed one by one into this mysterious black hole under the table. Coincidentally, every one can choose to play the hand as they please so some times an incorrect play can seemingly affect the outcome of that particular hand. But more often than not, you are dealt hard 12-16 and have to draw against dealer 7-A, so it ends up being the same situation when those characters STAND on hands that would regularly be a no brainer to hit.
Mental
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October 4th, 2022 at 11:29:13 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Mental

Quote: AxelWolf


After quite a bit of blackjack play online, I began to notice small bets between $1-$10(I think I mostly kept it under $7) and was winning at a noticeable above-average rate. This seemed to happen soon after a new deposit once the account had been dormant for a long while, or on a new account.
link to original post



And you never bothered to log your play? Even if the offshore casino did not offer transaction logs, I would have written my own logger if I thought there was an algo that could be exploited.
link to original post

No, and I don't believe they had much of a personal hand history log available if any. As I said, there was something much more lucrative and that was my main focus.

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about programming or coding.
link to original post



Did you even look for logs? I only play regulated US casinos, but every one logs every bet and payoff. Otherwise, what do you do when your balance does not look right to you? Call them up and say "I have a feeling you owe me money"? I would never play in a joint that did not provide logs. Playback of individual hands is even better but somewhat rare. You can also use Xbox Game Bar to record every detail of your online sessions. Pencil and paper also works.

It is interesting that people who don't know how to extract and analyze data are most likely to accept rigging claims.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
MichaelBluejay
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October 4th, 2022 at 1:13:20 PM permalink
Allegations of online cheating come up so often, I wrote up five reasons why cheating at online casinos is rare.

Two of those reasons relate to watchdog mathematicians like the Wizard, who are able to easily detect cheating. He discovered that Casino Bar was cheating way back in 2002, early on in my tenure with him. I don't think he'll mind my mentioning the behind-the-scenes details now: After he wrote up his analysis, Casino Bar hired a pricey Park Avenue law firm and threatened to sue him if he didn't retract. The Wizard's lawyer was confident that he could defend the suit, but it would be expensive, something like $40-100k in today's dollars if I remember right. Today he'd quickly scoff at the suit, but back in 2002, this was before the website was successful, and he'd only just recently moved to Vegas to start being the Wizard, had a young family, and wasn't rolling in cash. Yet, he still didn't back down. The casino said, "Okay, expect to be served on Tuesday." But they were bluffing, they never filed. Here's the story of his takedown of the casino, including their attempts to intimidate him, minus all those behind-the-scenes details I just shared.

It's one thing to take the high ground, quite another when taking the high ground could have serious consequences for you and your loved ones. I respect the Wizard a lot for not backing down, even though doing so was risky for him. In the subsequent decades the Wizard and I got upset with each other over other matters, but we continue to respect each other's integrity. This case was a good example.
Last edited by: MichaelBluejay on Oct 5, 2022
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AxelWolf
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October 4th, 2022 at 3:43:09 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Mental

Quote: AxelWolf


After quite a bit of blackjack play online, I began to notice small bets between $1-$10(I think I mostly kept it under $7) and was winning at a noticeable above-average rate. This seemed to happen soon after a new deposit once the account had been dormant for a long while, or on a new account.
link to original post



And you never bothered to log your play? Even if the offshore casino did not offer transaction logs, I would have written my own logger if I thought there was an algo that could be exploited.
link to original post

No, and I don't believe they had much of a personal hand history log available if any. As I said, there was something much more lucrative and that was my main focus.

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about programming or coding.
link to original post



Did you even look for logs? I only play regulated US casinos, but every one logs every bet and payoff. Otherwise, what do you do when your balance does not look right to you? Call them up and say "I have a feeling you owe me money"? I would never play in a joint that did not provide logs. Playback of individual hands is even better but somewhat rare. You can also use Xbox Game Bar to record every detail of your online sessions. Pencil and paper also works.

It is interesting that people who don't know how to extract and analyze data are most likely to accept rigging claims.
link to original post

As I said it's ben a while approximately 7-10 years ago. At some point, I was restricted from accessing the casino.

Of course, I looked for logs/hand history. I'm fairly confident they were unavailable to view. I probably could've requested them from the casino but I certainly didn't want them looking at my account. You know, here are your logs, and by the way...You are banned. I was doing very well at the casino on something unrelated to Blackjack I and wasn't willing to take that risk. It certainly wasn't worth my time tracking and worrying about their blackjack.

I don't believe I would've been asked to help track results if logs were available, that would just seem silly. I did use an app for that. Nowadays, I do use a screen recorder when necessary.

I really don't care if the games are rigged or not, as long as I can overcome the rigged HA. I normally factor in rigged software and not getting paid period. It's not an exact science when factoring that stuff, it's more of a risk vs reward situation. If I'm only risking $300, and I stand to make a few thousand, I dive in, available logs rigged games or not (Most of the online casinos I'm aware of do have logs).



"It is interesting that people who don't know how to extract and analyze data are most likely to accept rigging claims."

I don't disagree with that statement.

Personally, I believe I'm less likely to accept rigging claims than most people. I have a long history of refusing them. But, whenever unregulated online casinos are involved, it doesn't take much convincing since the times I have highly suspected it, I have found solid evidence. Oddly enough, there was some evidence of shenanigans at that place as well.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2022 at 3:51:55 AM permalink
Not an example of rigged software but certainly a flaw in programming. Look closely to see the problem.

Don't feel bad because it was actually paying 4k for a natural wheel A-5 straight flush.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Oct 5, 2022
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
gordonm888
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lilredroosterdarkoz
October 5th, 2022 at 7:47:27 AM permalink
Quote: MichaelBluejay

Allegations of online cheating come up so often, I wrote up five reasons why online casinos don't cheat.

Two of those reasons relate to watchdog mathematicians like the Wizard, who are able to easily detect cheating. He discovered that Casino Bar was cheating way back in 2002, early on in my tenure with him. I don't think he'll mind my mentioning the behind-the-scenes details now: After he wrote up his analysis, Casino Bar hired a pricey Park Avenue law firm and threatened to sue him if he didn't retract. The Wizard's lawyer was confident that he could defend the suit, but it would be expensive, something like $40-100k in today's dollars if I remember right. Today he'd quickly scoff at the suit, but back in 2002, this was before the website was successful, and he'd only just recently moved to Vegas to start being the Wizard, had a young family, and wasn't rolling in cash. Yet, he still didn't back down. The casino said, "Okay, expect to be served on Tuesday." But they were bluffing, they never filed. Here's the story of his takedown of the casino, including their attempts to intimidate him, minus all those behind-the-scenes details I just shared.

It's one thing to take the high ground, quite another when taking the high ground could have serious consequences for you and your loved ones. I respect the Wizard a lot for not backing down, even though doing so was risky for him. In the subsequent decades the Wizard and I got upset with each other over other matters, but we continue to respect each other's integrity. This case was a good example.
link to original post



Hmmm. "Why online casinos don't cheat" And in your second paragraph, you give an account of an online casino that does cheat.

With bated breath, I await your articles on: Why men don't cheat on their wives; Why tax-payers don't cheat; Why politicians don't lie; Why corruption doesn't exist; Why people don't use drugs and Why rich people don't steal and do dishonorable things

Your outline for those articles could be the same as your article on Why Online Casinos Don't Cheat:
1. They don't need to
2. They'll be noticed and outted
3. There will be adverse consequences

Bwwaaa Haaa haa.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
lilredrooster
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October 5th, 2022 at 11:12:32 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888



Why rich people don't steal and do dishonorable things




Putin's net worth has been estimated at $70 billion - I've never read anything about him owning or running any business

I'm thinking he probably didn't need more than $25 billion to live comfortably

but still was highly motivated to 𝙖𝙘𝙦𝙪𝙞𝙧𝙚 much, much more______________________________________(~:/


.
Please don't feed the trolls
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October 5th, 2022 at 11:33:43 AM permalink
Where is teliot when you need him
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2022 at 11:54:39 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Allegations of online cheating come up so often, I wrote up five reasons why online casinos don't cheat.

Two of those reasons relate to watchdog mathematicians like the Wizard, who are able to easily detect cheating. He discovered that Casino Bar was cheating way back in 2002, early on in my tenure with him. I don't think he'll mind my mentioning the behind-the-scenes details now: After he wrote up his analysis, Casino Bar hired a pricey Park Avenue law firm and threatened to sue him if he didn't retract. The Wizard's lawyer was confident that he could defend the suit, but it would be expensive, something like $40-100k in today's dollars if I remember right. Today he'd quickly scoff at the suit, but back in 2002, this was before the website was successful, and he'd only just recently moved to Vegas to start being the Wizard, had a young family, and wasn't rolling in cash. Yet, he still didn't back down. The casino said, "Okay, expect to be served on Tuesday." But they were bluffing, they never filed. Here's the story of his takedown of the casino, including their attempts to intimidate him, minus all those behind-the-scenes details I just shared.

It's one thing to take the high ground, quite another when taking the high ground could have serious consequences for you and your loved ones. I respect the Wizard a lot for not backing down, even though doing so was risky for him. In the subsequent decades the Wizard and I got upset with each other over other matters, but we continue to respect each other's integrity. This case was a good example.
link to original post



Hmmm. "Why online casinos don't cheat" And in your second paragraph, you give an account of an online casino that does cheat.

With bated breath, I await your articles on: Why men don't cheat on their wives; Why tax-payers don't cheat; Why politicians don't lie; Why corruption doesn't exist; Why people don't use drugs and Why rich people don't steal and do dishonorable things

Your outline for those articles could be the same as your article on Why Online Casinos Don't Cheat:
1. They don't need to
2. They'll be noticed and outted
3. There will be adverse consequences

Bwwaaa Haaa haa.
link to original post

Even funnier is the fact that under the section.(https://easy.vegas/online/)
"Rigged software is rare, for a number of reasons:

It's not impossible for online casinos to cheat, but it's pretty rare. And it's easy to avoid cheating casinos:"

If you're in a state that licenses casinos, just play at any licensed casino. Licensed casinos are honest, as none of them will risk losing their license by cheating.
In other areas, play at a casino with a good reputation, like my advertiser Bovada. I wouldn't advertise them if their software were rigged."


Bovada was found to be using rigged/bugged BetSoft software for quite some time.
I suggest reading the full article here. https://lcb.org/news/10144-warning-betsoft-progressives-problem

"TimesSome jackpots on specific coin sizes and certain games are never won at Bovada, while they routinely hit at Slots.iv, even though the amount of wagering is much higher at Bovada.

For example- the 5¢,10¢ and 25 ¢ denominations jackpots on Good Girl Bad Girl regularly hit at Slots.iv, but have never been won at Bovada since the tracking started 9 months ago. The odds of hitting the 5¢ jackpot on this slot are calculated to be 1:20,000 - yet it was played at Bovada nearly six million times without hitting whatsoever.

Additionally, the data indicates that in February, multiple slot machines at Bovada exhibited strange behavior that couldn't be accidental, since there were several slots behaving strangely all at the same time. The games that were otherwise regularly won all went without any wins for a period of about three weeks, to suddenly revert back to their previous win frequency at almost the same time."




"They've been around for over twenty years and have a good reputation."

I do agree that Bovada has a good reputation, I would absolutely play there. BetSoft And Nucleus is a major online software. To suggest online rigged software is RARE, is misleading.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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