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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 2:58:39 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

But its not, Dan. Nowhere in any casino rulebook
is it written down that card counting is against
the rules. Its not tolerated, its not against the
rules. Its not written in the rulebook that excessive
flatulence is against the rules, but its not tolerated
either.



Huh?? Bob - are you joking, or just 100% naive about gambling or what!
1. Card counting is against the house rules, and procedures are written up all over the industry on it. In fact, card counting defenses are a gaming industry cottage industry, there is so much handling of it...
2. If Mike tolerates flatulence at WOV (and there's a shit load of flatulence here Bob!!, not only speaking for myself), but:
3. This "where is it written B.S." is a lame answer to a house rule violation. It is written of the pit boss' lips, as in "read my lips...you're done for the night..."

Floormen and Shift managers get DAILY Surveillance notices of "face-sheets" on card counters to watch for and back off.

Typical faxed memorandum:
" 'Baseball Cap Guy #37' [see photo] made a 5x jump bet from $50 to $250 on two hands with count at +7 at Sunset Station on 8/2/11 during swing shift operations, 11PM to 1AM; white male, 5'10", 220 lbs, played uncarded, orders Whiskey Sour as 'cover drink.' Typically Bets insurance at +5, jump bets 3X on +4, 5x +6 or higher. Left BJ-14 table at 11:37PM on 8/2/11 with floorman "DC" observing action, played on Rouette table R-2 Sunset for 20 mins hedging bets before re-attempting mid-shoe game entry on BJ-6 at 12:05AM 8/3/11" etc., etc., etc....



Card Counting has been a complete table games "house felony" for eons - absolute ages, for decades, essentially for a generation. Early in card counting history, when the families ran Las Vegas, people were indeed back-roomed (had their hands broken by baseball bats over discussions of "don't do that and don't come back!")
Card counting is written up in casino house documents for pit crews, surveillance, shift managers, and casino managers. It used to be a feared threat that was at one time dealt with very harshly. Bob, how naive are you about Blackjack and gambling history?? This is while it is technically legal and not a felony by the local police precenct to count cards, it is against against house rules and players get backed off and tracked.
I did a WHOLE thing on "it doesn't always matter what the police think! - Because it matters what The pit boss will think, and he will 86 you" (expel you with tresspassing warning, if need be), and card counting is the MAIN reason for being backed off Blackjack.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
NowTheSerpent
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October 6th, 2011 at 3:12:44 AM permalink
*****
NowTheSerpent
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October 6th, 2011 at 3:20:13 AM permalink
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NowTheSerpent
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October 6th, 2011 at 3:21:04 AM permalink
Quote: Keyser

This entire dice sliding lawsuit is just plain sleazy. It stinks of 'bad faith' on the part of the Wynn.

Here's why... Why didn't the pit crew or surveillance stop the game once they saw that they were sliding?
Are we for even on minute to believe that they weren't aware of the slide until after they viewed the video tapes? Or did they just decide at the time that it's ok if they slide just some of the time, because it would give the casino a chance to win the money back even if the players won?

Here's what I believe really happened. The Wynn knew they were sliding, and chose to let them continue playing, realizing that if they were to lose, that they would win the players money. If the players were fortunate enough to win, then the casino knew that they could always use the video tape in order to sue for the return of the money. The Wynn saw this play as a win/win game. This entire folly is the fault of the Wynn for not enforcing proper gaming procedures. They intentionally chose to bend the rules so that they could have a shot at winning the big players bank.

Again, this predatory gambling on the part of the casino. It's a disturbing trend in which casinos are also reviewing big wins to see if they can win back some of the money that they have lost. It's sleazy when Caesar's Palace does it, and it's sleazy when the Wynn does it. The fact that the players were foreigners makes it easier for the casinos to get away with it in the end.

Put the word out, the Wynn is sweating the money these days. If you're lucky enough to win big, then they will use their attorneys or the patron dispute process in an attempt to win their money back! Truly disgusting!

-Keyser



Keyser, I TOTALLY believe you! Corporations which couldn't formulate a strategy like the one you're enunciating here could never afford a spot on the Strip. I TOTALLY believe they would do this. Players need to learn a way to defeat this kind of "welching" strategy.
EvenBob
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October 6th, 2011 at 3:26:12 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Card counting is against the house rules



But those rules aren't written anywhere, Dan. You have
yet to produce any such rules. There's no dealer handbook
that lists card counting as being against any rule. Just
like excessive flatulence isn't in the book, but its not tolerated
either. Its just assumed in the industry that counters will
be dealt with, but no pit in its right mind will ever tell you that
to your face. They will never whip out the rulebook and point
to number 6.1: "Card counting is against the rules in this
casino." Indeed, if you're backed off of 'trespassed', they
will never EVER tell you why they're doing it. Why is that,
Dan, if its in the rulebook.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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October 6th, 2011 at 3:27:59 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

MrV you just ended the discussion when you wrote: "I hope to criminalize dice setting."

Okay, I'm sure everyone will want to belly up to a craps table to watch the dealer throw the dice.

Oh, as a matter of fact, in California you can watch the dealer turn over playing cards... and they call that California Craps. And it has been failing miserably in one casino after another.

Like I said, if you doubt the current regulations ask the NGC yourself.



I simply am asking YOU to post the "current regulations."

You ARE an expert, yes?

C'mon, reporter: report fact, not opinion.

As for my hoping to criminalize dice setting: why should that end the discussion?

Oh, I get it.

You're one of those starry eyed dreamers who has attempted to hitch a ride on the dice setting star.

Call me Zarathustra: your god is dead.
"What, me worry?"
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 3:28:33 AM permalink
An interesting response to this situation for the Serpent is this:

If someone tried to burglarize (burgle) you house and failed and had left, only leaving a couple of minor scratches on your door, - would you file a police report and file an insurance claim? No. In fact, YOU might let him hack a way for a little further, seeing that he cannot do it, before you take action. True?
If the burglar said, "I'm innocent of my criminal actions because the homeowner watched me for a short while to assess the situation, so I am now innocent of any wrong doing" - would you accept that argument?

If someone tried to burgle your house, and had succeeded, and took a fortune from you, and wrecked your house in the process, would you file a police report and an insurance claim? Yes.
If the burglar said, "I'm innocent of my criminal actions because the homeowner watched me for a short while to assess the situation, so I am now innocent of any wrong doing" - would you accept that argument?

You might even file a civil lawsuit to get back the property.
Hmm....You would indeed do it for yourself if you incurred a loss.
Especially after you found out that he suceeded in robbing, but when you would not have - if he had failed.

One might argue that that is what Wynn is trying to do is to get back is property that was lost by clear theft.
If you would do this for yourself, then why would you argue against him that he wishes to do it for himself, when you would do it for yourself also?

You will say:
1. He is rich enough, so he has no right.
2. He is an evil casino operator, so he has no right.
3. He is both, so he doubly has no right.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FleaStiff
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October 6th, 2011 at 3:39:46 AM permalink
What determines that a drink is a "cover drink" rather than simply a drink.
pacomartin
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October 6th, 2011 at 4:06:58 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Surveillance tape played to the judge and jury is tough to argue.



A surveillance tape of a man throwing dice to the best of his ability. Also on the tape is a pit boss who fails to call a "no roll".

If casinos wanted to remove dice control from the player they could make a device


They do not, because they know that players are enthralled with the ability to handle the dice, and to attempt dice control. They would bet a lot less money if you take that part of the game away.

It is entirely up to the casino to enforce governing rules. If the players paid off the pit boss, that is an entirely different story.

You really don't see this viewpoint as reasonable?
EvenBob
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October 6th, 2011 at 4:18:19 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

They do not, because they know that players are enthralled with the ability to handle the dice, and to attempt dice control.



EXACTLY! And now that they've achieved it, they're
labeled crooks and cheaters and dirtbags. 'Casino
Integrity', an oxymoron if there ever was one.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AlanMendelson
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October 6th, 2011 at 4:48:04 AM permalink
I'd like to make several points:

1. If there is a surveillance tape, it would not show "throwing the dice" which is legal, it would allegedly show "sliding the dice" which is not legal.

2. MrV, the information about what is a legal "throw" and what is an illegal "slide" came from the gaming regulators in Michigan and Nevada. But exactly which comments are you saying are either not true or are just an opinion and are not correct information from the regulators?

3. And when craps players have mastered some skill in handling dice, and even if they make "legal throws" that fly in the air, bounce on the table surface, and hit the back wall. a casino is under no obligation to let that player continue to throw the dice or even play on the property.

4. There really is no such thing as legal "dice control." There is legal "dice influencing," because no one can really "control" dice. It's a false description. The only way to come close to control dice is by sliding the dice, and even sliding does not offer 100% control. However, the NGC says dice sliding is not permitted period, so you shouldn't even try it.

5. And the lingering question is why weren't the "sliders" in the Wynn case warned the first time, stopped the second time, and "no rolled" every time??? Did the dealers/crew not see the slide, not know the rules, or for some other reason not call a "no roll" ??
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:00:43 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

But those [card counting] rules aren't written anywhere, Dan.


Yes they are. And the casinos won't show you their operational manuals and card-counting tracking sheets to you, and they don't have to do so to you for them to be in force.
This is a little like "I don't have to pay for my movie tickets at the Cinemaplex of the ticket booth clerk doesn't show me the fire protection escape plans in case there's a fire here here in this movie theater - so my tickets are free, and I can do what I want! Aha! SHOW ME WHERE IT IS WRITTEN THAT I CAN'T DO WHAT I WANT HERE if you can't produce THE DOCUMENTS! aha...."

Quote: EvenBob the instigator

You have yet to produce any such rules.


Don't have to. The floor has the rules down pat. They're always very friendly. But try some crap at a real casino against security and the pit boss and see what happens.
In fact - try it at the Wynn. :) Was just there tonight - had NO problem. They DO have a dime crap table, of all things - thank God....

Quote: EvenBob the troll

There's no dealer handbook that lists card counting as being against any rule.


Yes there is, but it is not a dealer's textbook. Security and legal operational rules aren't generally written in dealer's handbooks - indeed, most dealers graduate from dealer's school into real jobs with no carry-along textbooks. "Stand on 17 but hit Soft-17, and learn Pai Gow later- and call the floor if there's a problem" is the basic requirement to graduate from dealer's school. That is, if the dealer doesn't answer you in Korean, Mandarin, Cantonese, or Lao above the basic rules of the game and in very basic conversational Engrish/English. The legal and security end of the games are for floormen, shift managers, casino managers, security operations, and Surveillance crews, and they will let you what the deal is - in no uncertain terms case you happen to not know.
Furthermore, no floorman has to produce any written documents or written rules to a player at a table, especially if he is being backed off or arrested for some shit. Newbies or new players are never a problem - shot takers and casino cheats are. This whole "I demand that you show ME where it is written in the Constitution of the United States or The Magna Carta that I cannot cheat/card count/piss on the floor at a casino as I see fit, etc." is sometimes met with a security guard saying to a player, "Sir!...PLEASE back away from the table before we taser the shit out of you while we call the cops," etc.
The pit boss says "if you don't know the rules, then we'll teach you, or else who are you trying to kid," or, "the house rules are written on my lips if you don't know the rules. Don't slide the dice/reach into the dealer's rack to pluck out black chips/grab the cocktail waitress' boobs/mark the 10-value cards with a Sharpie/etc.!" Basically, both experienced and inexperienced gamblers catch on just fine to how things work if they don't have an attitude problem.

So, there are indeed procedure manuals for casino operations that handle card counting, written surveillance reports (with an example above), commercially available industry operations manuals from casino executives Steve Forte in an interesting example publisher on this. But a gambler cannot demand to review the executive books at a Blackjack table, much in the same way that you cannot walk into a Four-Star restaurant and say, "I demand that I inspect your kitchen to see that you simmer the mushrooms at 140 degrees farenheit or higher, and have your dairy products at 33^ to 37^ Farenheit - to insure that my food safety personal requirements are met - and also show the me health department's textbooks my immediate personal review! - if I am to eat here!" Basic response: go eat at Joe's, or go play at Joker's Wild, and see what they say....

Quote: EvenBob that we all know by now

Just
like excessive flatulence isn't in the book, but its not tolerated
either.


This is not true, Bob.
We have Tony "The Farts" Vitagliano come in from Newark, New Jersey about once a month or so, throws dice, and we handle him with an aerosol spray Amway product. So our crap table table doesn't smell like crap. Love his action, and a good guy, too.

Quote: EvenBoob

Its just assumed in the industry that counters will
be dealt with, but no pit in its right mind will ever tell you that
to your face.


If you need to be told something by a floorman, you're basically a moron...

Quote: EvenBob

They will never whip out the rulebook and point
to number 6.1: "Card counting is against the rules in this
casino." Indeed, if you're backed off of 'trespassed', they
will never EVER tell you why they're doing it. Why is that,
Dan, if its in the rulebook.


If you don't know why you're getting trespassed or arrested out of a casino, you're basically a clueless moron who should listen to your Legal Aid lawyer.
That simple.
By by the Rules and You Are Fine. :)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:08:34 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If you don't know why you're getting trespassed or arrested out of a casino, you're basically a clueless moron



Shhh, its a secret. Its in the secret rulebook, printed in
secret, read in secret, and never seen by the public.
Shhh, we don't have to tell you anything, or show you
the secret rule. We're the Dark Side, we're operating
on our own super secret rules, if we kick you out, we
just assume you know why.

Get real, Dan..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
SanchoPanza
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:19:55 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

think of dice sliding as putting your finger on top of a coin and pushing the coin to the end of a table. the coin does not bounce. the coin does not lift off the table surface. the coin will slide to the table end.


Wynn says this went on for a month. They deserve to lose the $700,000. More even than Icahn's 20 percent rebates.
Are these so-called "geniuses" really casino operators or what?
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:20:18 AM permalink
Bob, You get real.
We all just having fun with you.
And this is not secret stuff at all, - and it's all on the Internet.
In fact, all this information is published right here by the companion site to this here forum, by Mike Shackleford "The Wizard" himself.
Take a look at it, - please!
see: Help site for people who wish to learn some serious stuff about gaming if you would read at least some of it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:25:11 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Wynn says this went on for a month. They deserve to lose the $700,000. More even than Icahn's 20 percent rebates.
Are these so-called "geniuses" really casino operators or what?



Steve Wynn is supposedly brilliant casino operator with his incredible track record.
Best dealers and floormen in the business.
A month of dice-sliding tolerance for that kind of money I simply do not understand.
Truly a gaming industry mystery.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:24:43 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Shhh, its a secret. Its in the secret rulebook, printed in
secret, read in secret, and never seen by the public.
Shhh, we don't have to tell you anything, or show you
the secret rule. We're the Dark Side, we're operating
on our own super secret rules, if we kick you out, we
just assume you know why.



No - if you're kicked out of a casino, or are sued by a casino, you pretty much f*(^ing know why:
"I was drunk last night," or "I was taking a shot sliding dice and got caught bad." - The example here on this forum discussion.
Casinos are public business places with people all over the place and surveillance crews recording some reality TV, with The Las Vegas Review Journal reporting everything, with John L. Smith writing opinions.
Bob, I think you're talking about the secret society of the Masons, or Harry Potter and the inner sanctum or scrotum of the Warthogs or something like that. There's no secrets in gaming - or on a crap table, or as we can see in The Las Vegas Review Journal or on an Internet forum.
Everything's so public and open it's ridiculous.
If there's a problem, the floorman/security guard/pit boss tells you in plain English, and you and him take action, sometimes upset.
No mystery here as to why.
The lawsuits are public and in the newpapers.
The discussions are on the Internet right here, read and commented on by countless people and for the world to see.
The technical game rules and their mathematical details for all games are right' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>https://wizardofvegas.com/quote/98031/]right here
If it weren't for all this public access and information you get from your cable company and us, you'd be cut off from all this gambling world action - and the world at large - and living in a single wide trailer in the woods, shooting squirrels with a .22 rimfire for lunch, and using a coat-hanger on you TV set to get Foxworthy reruns.
Along with a smart-ass commentator and Las Vegas Casino dealer and casino game designer himself - filling you in on all the good poop.
How lucky you are to have all this, and to be aware of all this - direct to your single-wide trailer in the woods.
Secrets on this case, or in table games operations?
Not at all!
You're just pissed you're not the judge in this case. I'm not...

But things don't always make sense, especially in the gaming business - like in this case that we're judging The Wynn Casino as freaking trailer park judges on the Internet - but it doesn't mean conspiracy or secrets. It means it's a tough case to judge still knowing all the details and arguments we do have, that's all.
We'll see it play out. It'll be reported here.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MrRalph
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:42:25 AM permalink
Maybe the SicBo dealer can come shake dice at the craps table. Wouldn't that be fun. I would like to see how many people can actually accomplish a dead cat bounce. I am sure the number would be extremely minute. This question has been beaten to death before and the bottom line is the casinos are pissing more people off than they are saving money by pissing and moaning about dice setters and hitting the backwall. Once those dice are in the air and they bounce at least once, for 99.9% of the people out there the throw will be random, just as random as chucking them down the table. Dice setters do not slow the game down. Late bettors and people that do not know how to bet or what their bets are suppose to pay slow the game down. When you do get someone that just flings them down the table and the dice fly of the table or land in the chip rack and you have find the dice, check the dice and re-roll them, how much does that slow the game down? You cannot compare dice sliding and dice setting with a controlled throw to each other, one is illegal, the other is not. Since when is possesing a skill or being proficient at something a criminal offense. If you play perfect basic strategy you are skilled at Black Jack. if you can set and control the dice somewhat and make the right bets you are skilled at craps what the hell is the difference. You are both still losers in the long run because they are both negative expectation games. Only as a proficient counter does Black become a positive game. There are plenty of games where the game is slowed down by players but it seems dice setters get the most heat and probably have the least chance of being successful. Just because you have some success at setting and throwing the dice(if by chance you even do) it is still a game of chance not a game of skill. If these guys slid the dice they should have been caught right then and there. If Steve Wynn wants to get pissed at somebody he should start with his group that let it happen. If they did do this and they can prove it, then I then I hope they do prevail because these people that go into the casino and try to cheat just make it more unpleasant for the rest of us who just want to go in and play a fair game without getting hassled
MrV
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October 6th, 2011 at 8:19:53 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

2. MrV, the information about what is a legal "throw" and what is an illegal "slide" came from the gaming regulators in Michigan and Nevada. But exactly which comments are you saying are either not true or are just an opinion and are not correct information from the regulators?



For example, it seems the three criteria of a legal roll are opinion ... "as long as the dice fly in the air, bounce on the table, and hit the back wall."

My question: where is that written?

Where in the statutes or regulations is that stated as being the law?

If it is not spelled out as such, then it seems to be opinion, or his interpretation.

Given the vague, ambiguous definition of "cheating" and what conduct constitutes cheating, a sharp defense lawyer can and should construct a successful defense of someone accused of dice sliding by arguing the law is too vague, and enforced too inconsistently.

Then again, it happened in Nevada, where the casinos run things, so the playing field isn't really level.

Regardless, with their funds / winnings, the defendants should be able to retain competent legal counsel, and should be able to mount a first class defense: should be interesting.
"What, me worry?"
buzzpaff
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October 6th, 2011 at 9:50:59 AM permalink
That simple.
By by the Rules and You Are Fine. :)
Dan Lubin

Unless you are a BJ counter. No rule against it. Dan will just back you off for using your brain. Of course , It is fair. Dan will let losers play after all. LOL
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 10:09:29 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

For example, it seems the three criteria of a legal roll are opinion ... "as long as the dice fly in the air, bounce on the table, and hit the back wall."

My question: where is that written?


I love it: "WHERE IS IT WRITTEN that I cannot do whatever I want, say whatever I want, and run the games as I see fit - as some clown player who walks off the street into a casino to run it like he was the boss? Show me the tablets that Moses walked down off the mountain with - or else I am right!!!"
It's written on the floorman's lips:
1. "The dice must hit the back wall!"
2. "You may not slide the dice!" (dice fly in the air and bounce on the table)
Read 'em.....

Quote: MrV

Where in the statutes or regulations is that stated as being the law?


With the gaming jurisdictions and with the casino compliance officer.
If a player wants to see them, - he can ask the floorman, and the floorman will tell them the house rules.

Quote: MrV

If it is not spelled out as such, then it seems to be opinion, or his interpretation.


No, it is written in internal procedure manuals, documentation and in pit briefings. Customers who walk in off the street cannot demand to see them anymore than they can demand to see fire code compliance records from a movie house ticket clerk while pretending to be a Fire Marhsall - whenever buying a ticket to see Avatar.
Again: Where is it written!! I DEMAND to see WHERE it is written THAT....! [snap, snap]

Quote: MrV

Given the vague, ambiguous definition of "cheating" and what conduct constitutes cheating, a sharp defense lawyer can and should construct a successful defense of someone accused of dice sliding by arguing the law is too vague, and enforced too inconsistently.


Casino Cheating guidelines are thoroughly documented, and also were clearly pointed out: Hole Carding and Dice sliding.: Illegal. Card-counting: Completely Legal, but about as acceptable to the house as eating pork in a Mosque in front of the Iman during Ramadan in that house also. Tell them about the counstitution and the bill of rights with a pork rib in your mouth: that's however LEGAL, and grounds for being backed off, which is also legal.
And as for committing a black and white gaming law crime, a Sharp defense lawyer is no match to a Sharp Prosecutor when surveillance tapes are presented as exhibit A.

Quote: MrV

Then again, it happened in Nevada, where the casinos run things, so the playing field isn't really level.


Sure it is. It's just that people walking in off the street or blabbing on the Internet don't set the casino house rules, and so feel it isn't a level playing field because they can't walk into the casino pit, and set the games as THEY see fit to win the money. An absolute outrage, I tell you.

Quote: MrV

Regardless, with their funds / winnings, the defendants should be able to retain competent legal counsel, and should be able to mount a first class defense: should be interesting.


About $700,000 in legal fees, as Mr. Wynn is trying to cost them.
Should be interesting indeed.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 10:22:39 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

That simple.
Play by the Rules and You Are Fine. :)
Dan Lubin


Exactly.
And Not a difficult concept to grasp at all.
Play by the rules and you are fine.
That is a true quote of mine.
Live it, breathe it, - and avoid handcuffs and legal fees all at the same time!

Quote: busspaff

Unless you are a BJ counter. No rule against it. Dan will just back you off for using your brain. Of course , It is fair. Dan will let losers play after all. LOL


No, I would back off players as soon as a house rule is broken without waiting for a win or lose result. Said that many times.
Yes, there are house rules against it, and you should get backed off as soon as you are caught doing some against the rules without delay - REGARDLESS of win OR lose.
My position.
And if a moron like that Dan guy backs you off, then you were clearly not using your brain.
Some Casino floormen give a counter or other "considered nefarious" players a chance to hang themselves via losses first, but that's them. And if they win - then sue! Don't like that? - Then Complain about it here like it matters! :)
Or follow the house rules in the first place, for that matter.

Don't put words in my mouth; I am not at a loss for them.
I've always said that card counting was legal but against the house rules, - which is enough to get backed off a game or removed from a property.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
buzzpaff
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October 6th, 2011 at 11:04:35 AM permalink
Don't put words in my mouth; I am not at a loss for them.
I've always said that card counting was legal but against the house rules, - which is enough to get backed off a game or removed from a property.

And of course when I sit down to play BJ at your table and ask to see the rules, you will hand me something that says I can not count!
Is that correct Dan? Don't want to put words in your mouth. So a simple YES or NO will do. Thank you.
boymimbo
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October 6th, 2011 at 11:04:44 AM permalink
Quote: NRS 465


NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:

7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.

NRS 465.083 Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.

NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.

1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.

2. A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he or she personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.



There is NO regulation within the gambling statutes of Nevada that defines what is an illegal versus a legal throw. Given the lengthy arguments on the internets about whether dice control is possible via a throw in the air that hits the back wall, a casino would have a very difficult time proving that a "controlled" throw that hits the back wall is illegal. Any patron dispute in this regard would favor the side of the patron. If there was science that proved that a controlled throw could influence the dice, you would bet that ALL casinos would react by disallowing dice setting. There isn't. Some casinos sweat it anyway and (like Wheeling) force you to simply pick up and throw the dice with no setting allowed.

Casino operators, on the other hand, have regulations on their side when it comes to sliding, as you are altering the chance of the game.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
thecesspit
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:49:59 PM permalink
That was much as I expected... there seems to be a continual confusion between "illegal" (against the law) and "wrong" (against the rules of the game... either as written or intended by the pit boss's fiat). Sometimes wrong can be illegal, but it's not always the case.

I actually suspect if I requested a cinema's fire regulations via the proper channels I would either be given them, or given evidence of their existence. Maybe I wouldn't get after purchasing my ticket to Avatar.... but I suspect I could get them. Maybe I'll try some time this week.

It's a specious argument anyways, when playing a -game- there should be rules, and those rules should be available to all sides.

Those rules can simply be a description of a fair throw in sentence of two. Any throw that doesn't meet that definition is a no-roll... you don't need to add thousands of pages about grabbing waitresses boobs or stealing chips from the tray... simply stating "all bets must be placed before the dice are thrown" would stop past posting, for example, while anything that is illegal (harassment or theft) is already de facto OUT on the casino floor. If players are boorish enough not to realize that, well... I can hardly complain if security removes them.

Rules that are subject to a pit boss's fiat are possible, but simply saying "go ask him, he'll tell you" and it can depend on what the pit boss feels like that day... that's not a fair game that is protected for both sides. I respect that Dan says he tries to keep all his games (either when playing or dealing) along that straight line.

Hmmm, I wonder why I felt less inclined to gamble on my recent trip to Vegas? (I did feel more inclined to eat good food and watch lots of sports, making sports bets... I figured I understood most of the rules of the NFL....).
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
reno
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:55:14 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Practice bank robbery enough, it also becomes natural for the practitioner.



Quote: reno

So you'd back off all card-counters. Even counters who suck at counting cards?



Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. That is the job of the table games' pit crew and surveillance, and card counters get backed off if caught. Go play Roulette.



Well, the difference is that banks can't make any profit from inexperienced bank robbers training and practicing. Casinos, on the other hand, do make money off of beginner card counters who suck at card counting. In a way, Dan's casino's policy of evicting all card-counters, regardless of their competence, actually demonstrates some integrity on the casino's part. Maybe money isn't always the casino's bottom line! They appreciate law and order. Like I said earlier in the thread, if I owned a casino I would invite all novice card-counters to practice their craft at my tables. And I wouldn't evict them until they got good.
EvenBob
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:28:18 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No - if you're kicked out of a casino.. you pretty much f*(^ing know why:
.



But Dan, but Dan, if its against the rules to count,
if its in the rulebook as you claim, why doesn't the
casino TELL you that? I've been kicked out of a
casino for counting, Dan, as I've reported here.
They absolutely refused to tell me why, they said
it was none of my business. Why don't they tell
you its against the rules to count, why don't they
show you the rule? They don't, Dan, because its
not official, its a secret casino rule. Everybody
knows about it, but shhhh, we can't talk about
it to the public. It bothers them no end that the
Supreme Court has said card counting is completely a
legal activity in a casino. They'll never get over it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:55:07 PM permalink
Violating the casino's rules and procedures does not automatically justify criminal prosecution: the conduct must be criminal, per statute.

For example, if the house rule states the dice must hit the back wall, I can assure you that people who short toss will not go to jail because of this lapse.

House rules determine whether they let you play, or bar you.

State law determines whether you can be arrested and prosecuted.
"What, me worry?"
AlanMendelson
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:06:41 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Violating the casino's rules and procedures does not automatically justify criminal prosecution: the conduct must be criminal, per statute.

For example, if the house rule states the dice must hit the back wall, I can assure you that people who short toss will not go to jail because of this lapse.

House rules determine whether they let you play, or bar you.

State law determines whether you can be arrested and prosecuted.



I think everyone agrees with you. I agree with you. In fact sliding shouldn't get you arrested either and so far the "sliders" in the Wynn case haven't been charged with a crime.

It's just that "sliding" is not a legal way to throw the dice, hence the civil charges.

But again, how can a civil case against the sliders hold up if the craps crew didn't "no roll" the slides? Ahhh... and that might be the real question. Exactly WHY didn't the crew "no roll" the slides?
EvenBob
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:08:31 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

For example, if the house rule states the dice must hit the back wall,



Now see, there's a house rule, and they will TELL
you its a house rule. The same for the ball making
3 rev's on the roulette wheel, or its not counted as
a spin. Or leaning on the roulette glass, or touching
the wheel, those are rules and you'll be told that. But
they will never tell you card counting is against the
rules, they will just back you off or ban you.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RaleighCraps
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:09:46 PM permalink
I would love to see how they were able to slide the dice. On the tables I have played on there are at minimum 2 rods under the felt, on either side of the center section. And most of the tables feel like there is another bar in the Come area
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Keyser
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October 6th, 2011 at 7:39:46 PM permalink


The Wynn's highly trained dealer and boxman didn't have any idea that the players were sliding the dice.
EvenBob
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October 6th, 2011 at 7:49:26 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser



The Wynn's highly trained dealer and boxman didn't have any idea that the players were sliding the dice.



The Wynn does like to hire 'family'..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 7:51:36 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Quote: NRS 465


NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.



....
There is NO regulation within the gambling statutes of Nevada that defines what is an illegal versus a legal throw...


Sliding the dice is covered by the very same NRS regulation that you quoted in black and white, right above you not seeing it covered by NRS 465.015 - to alter the elements of chance...which determine the results of a game. Sliding the dice alter the elements of chance which determine the results of a game. Duh.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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October 6th, 2011 at 7:52:40 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I would love to see how they were able to slide the dice. On the tables I have played on there are at minimum 2 rods under the felt, on either side of the center section. And most of the tables feel like there is another bar in the Come area


That's a good solution!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Keyser
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October 6th, 2011 at 7:55:16 PM permalink
' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/logos/logos1009/logos100900107/8047292-portrait-of-a-senior-male-entrepreneur-wearing-blindfold-and-searching-somebody.jpg.jpg]

We're also supposed to believe that this is the pitboss, and that he too did not notice that the players were sliding the dice.
AlanMendelson
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October 6th, 2011 at 11:38:39 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I would love to see how they were able to slide the dice. On the tables I have played on there are at minimum 2 rods under the felt, on either side of the center section. And most of the tables feel like there is another bar in the Come area



Good question. Not all casinos have the "bumper" or "string" or "rods" under the layout. Caesars doesn't. Sam's Town does. I dont think Bellagio or the other MGM properties have it. When I checked the tables at Wynn I did not "feel" for them, as it was not a concern at the time. I did feel the mushy table, however and as a result never played there.

The way things are going, someday they might make craps tables look like "bumper pool" tables with obstacles in the landing zones to keep "dice influencers" from hitting the mid section of the back wall and from getting an unobstructed bounce. LOL
pacomartin
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October 7th, 2011 at 2:11:37 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.

Sliding the dice is covered by the very same NRS regulation that you quoted in black and white, right above you not seeing it covered by NRS 465.015 - to alter the elements of chance...which determine the results of a game. Sliding the dice alter the elements of chance which determine the results of a game. Duh.



With all due respect, you are absolutely correct that sliding dice alters the elements of chance. But normally laws are written to be as broad in scope as possible. You would not want a law that say you can't "top off your chips post roll" , since that would be covered by element 1.(c) .

But consider all the betting techniques, superstitions, streak followers, and the sheer percentage of people out there who believe they can control dice. All of them think they are capable of altering the element so chance. Gambling thrives on this belief.

I just don't think this case is winnable. The alternate theory is simply much easier to believe.
(1) They have evidence or testimony of collusion with an employee. Maybe the employee gave up the couple to get away with simply being fired and not prosecuted. Since the "dice sliding" would presumably have to be attempted dozens of times to make a significant bankroll, I would think collusion would be very likely.
(2) The Wynn would like to enforce a no exceptions rule to a "no roll" unless you hit the back wall. The only way to counter player anger is to have a very high profile case that they can point to. Even if one person gets angry, most of the players on the table will have heard of the rule.

I would be shocked if this case goes to court. The couple will return some percentage of the money since this will save them legal fees. Wynn Resorts will accept that money but require a non-disclosure statement. Wynn will get what they ultimately want, the ability to call "no rolls" without extreme player backlash.
EvenBob
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October 7th, 2011 at 2:46:15 AM permalink
>>1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.>>>

This is why card counting is NOT cheating, as Dan
claims. Counting does not alter any part of the game.
It alters or changes nothing. Prove that it does, Dan,
or stop calling it cheating.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
SanchoPanza
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October 7th, 2011 at 4:46:12 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No, it is written in internal procedure manuals, documentation and in pit briefings. Customers who walk in off the street cannot demand to see them anymore than they can demand to see fire code compliance records from a movie house ticket clerk while pretending to be a Fire Marhsall


Then Wynn or any other casino had better be ready to be laughed out of court. It is preposterous to suggest that hidden rules, procedures or whatever you want to call them can form the basis of legal actions, either civil or criminal.

And as for the so-called "altering the games of chance," besides my mind (and its systems and ESP), alcohol, scantily clad dealers, music and distracting lights should be included in that inanely--and presumably illegally--broad category.
rxwine
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October 7th, 2011 at 5:02:30 AM permalink
I'm assuming (but maybe I shouldn't), that Steve Wynn has been around the block enough and has lawyers to consult with on such matters. And a straightforward assumption about why he pursued this may not be the reason he's doing it.

Winning might not even be fully expected. Things he may want to accomplish: make these people unable to just silently scoot to another casino as they'll be known and also cost them money and time fighting in court. Maybe there's is even some hope to win if the people get bad legal representation. I'm sure Wynn's got deeper pockets than they do so he can sweat them a lot.

And what else...?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Doc
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October 7th, 2011 at 6:49:37 AM permalink
So suppose that this does go to court and that Wynn loses. I suspect there is, or would be, some kind of counter suit for defamation of character or the like. Suppose the "dice sliders" win that one, too. What is the likely impact on the way that the crap game is operated in the Wynn casino (and other Vegas casinos) after such an outcome? Would every screwball coming into the casino try to slide the dice, even if they don't know how? Would every short roll be called a no-roll?

I'm just considering down sides for Wynn other than the legal expenses.
kp
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October 7th, 2011 at 7:25:00 AM permalink
Quote:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game



So a slot technician who changes the hold percentage on a slot machine is cheating?
Mosca
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October 7th, 2011 at 8:00:20 AM permalink
Y'know, way back on page two, both sides of the discussion came to a consensus:

Quote: Keyser

Here's what I believe really happened. The Wynn knew they were sliding, and chose to let them continue playing, realizing that if they were to lose, that they would win the players money. If the players were fortunate enough to win, then the casino knew that they could always use the video tape in order to sue for the return of the money. The Wynn saw this play as a win/win game. This entire folly is the fault of the Wynn for not enforcing proper gaming procedures. They intentionally chose to bend the rules so that they could have a shot at winning the big players bank.

-Keyser



Quote: Paigowdan


I hate to say it, but I fully agree with this.



So do I. And I'd add, most people agree that there may have been some collusion, but maybe not. And I also agree with those who say that the Wynn has handled this badly.

Sliding is cheating. Once the Wynn accepted it, though, things get gray. If the guys behind the lens let it go, there's not a lot to say, but if there was crew collusion, I'm a bit more sympathetic to management.
A falling knife has no handle.
MrV
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October 7th, 2011 at 8:19:41 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I'm assuming (but maybe I shouldn't), that Steve Wynn has been around the block enough and has lawyers to consult with on such matters. And a straightforward assumption about why he pursued this may not be the reason he's doing it...I'm sure Wynn's got deeper pockets than they do so he can sweat them a lot. And what else...?



Wynn has a history of suing in response to a perceived insult or threat.

see ... barricade

Not that there is anything wrong with that; I mean, what is the point of having a lot of money and power if you don't get to demonstrate it now and then?

Remember, litigation is a game best played by the wealthy.
"What, me worry?"
buzzpaff
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October 7th, 2011 at 9:25:12 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Don't put words in my mouth; I am not at a loss for them.
I've always said that card counting was legal but against the house rules, - which is enough to get backed off a game or removed from a property.

And of course when I sit down to play BJ at your table and ask to see the rules, you will hand me something that says I can not count!
Is that correct Dan? Don't want to put words in your mouth. So a simple YES or NO will do. Thank you.



Have you not found time to answer YES or NO ??????????????????????????????????
Wizard
Administrator
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October 7th, 2011 at 10:08:00 AM permalink
Quote: NRS 465.015


1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.



I hope the Wynn loses. In my opinion it is up to the dealers to police how the dice are thrown. For example, if they let players set the dice and throw them carefully in an attempt to influence the outcome, then the Wynn is waiving their right to make a case that the player is trying to "alter the elements of chance."

Likewise, in this case the dealers accepted the throws, which I think waives their right to complain about them after the fact. By the Wynn's logic they could let any dice setter do his thing and if he loses let him walk, and if he wins ask for the money back.

I do hear that the Wynn fired eight dealers over this, which is entirely justifiable.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
buzzpaff
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October 7th, 2011 at 10:13:12 AM permalink
I wonder what expert witnesses Wynn might put on the stand? And how many dice setting sellers are using this case to sell their product? Using your logic, Wynn should lose. But Lady Justice is blindfolded, so she will not see the dice roll!
buzzpaff
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October 7th, 2011 at 10:17:40 AM permalink
"I do hear that the Wynn fired eight dealers over this, which is entirely justifiable. "

And pit bosses, those who Wynn pays a higher base salary than dealers ? Those supervisors who's main duty is to detect these sorts of things and protect the house. Were they fired or kept on the payroll as potential witnesses for the prosecution ? Can I buy a ticket for the trial ?? Or will the prosecutors seek a plea bargain, with Wynn's approval ? I think the latter!
MathExtremist
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October 7th, 2011 at 11:15:35 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: boymimbo

Quote: NRS 465


NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.



....
There is NO regulation within the gambling statutes of Nevada that defines what is an illegal versus a legal throw...


Sliding the dice is covered by the very same NRS regulation that you quoted in black and white, right above you not seeing it covered by NRS 465.015 - to alter the elements of chance...which determine the results of a game. Sliding the dice alter the elements of chance which determine the results of a game. Duh.


Under this interpretation, if sliding is altering the elements of chance, so is precision throwing. If precision throwing is a crime, so is attempting a precision throw: NRS 465.088 imposes equal punishments for cheating and attempted cheating. Therefore, everyone who sets the dice and tries to influence the outcome is guilty of a category B felony.

That cannot be the correct interpretation. Whatever sliding is, its interpretation must be consistent with the fact that it is a settled expectation that the player may manipulate the dice prior to throwing them, and may throw them in a wide variety of manners.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
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