AI and Card Counting
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4 members have voted
July 28th, 2026 at 6:58:49 AM
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Still in the count? I wonder if AI can be of any help here. Sur there are online apps that show the count and TC at all times and the right decision. Wizard’s app is a good example. Online Blackjack Free Game (Trainer + Learn To Count Cards) - Wizard of Odds
We talked about it in this forum: Card Counting Quirks?
I worked with the simple and easy Hilo. I followed app’s advice. I lost more often than not. I used another tactic with the same app and I won more often than not. I posted 2 screenshots in that thread.
I did more research in AI. I thought of using it online in real bj play, with real money. I couldnt do anything. Does it work, does anyone here know? I found a site that discusses AI take on blackjack card counting. AI gives a blunt verdict.
“Is card counting an "easy money" lie? In terms of how it is marketed on YouTube or in thousands of dollars worth of boot camps, yes, it is often a deception. If you watch a 10-minute YouTube video titled "How to Beat the Casino Every Time!", that content creator is absolutely deceiving the audience. They sell the concept as an unbroken string of victories. They gloss over the fact that a counter might have to endure 100 hours of losing, watching their hard-earned money vanish, waiting for the long run statistical law of large numbers to finally kick in. Many vendors hide the reality because "you will still lose most of your hands" is a terrible sales pitch for a $2,000 boot camp.”
There was another thread here. Free FullBlackjack Simulator: Any Rules + Any Count System + TC Deviations + C-D Calculator An intelligent app BJTheorem analyzes absolutely any counting system for any number of trials, rounds and sims. I tried it several times. Again I happened to experience more negative sims than positives. That is, as a counter I would lose more times than win. Negative also moneywise. What gives?
We talked about it in this forum: Card Counting Quirks?
I worked with the simple and easy Hilo. I followed app’s advice. I lost more often than not. I used another tactic with the same app and I won more often than not. I posted 2 screenshots in that thread.
I did more research in AI. I thought of using it online in real bj play, with real money. I couldnt do anything. Does it work, does anyone here know? I found a site that discusses AI take on blackjack card counting. AI gives a blunt verdict.
“Is card counting an "easy money" lie? In terms of how it is marketed on YouTube or in thousands of dollars worth of boot camps, yes, it is often a deception. If you watch a 10-minute YouTube video titled "How to Beat the Casino Every Time!", that content creator is absolutely deceiving the audience. They sell the concept as an unbroken string of victories. They gloss over the fact that a counter might have to endure 100 hours of losing, watching their hard-earned money vanish, waiting for the long run statistical law of large numbers to finally kick in. Many vendors hide the reality because "you will still lose most of your hands" is a terrible sales pitch for a $2,000 boot camp.”
There was another thread here. Free FullBlackjack Simulator: Any Rules + Any Count System + TC Deviations + C-D Calculator An intelligent app BJTheorem analyzes absolutely any counting system for any number of trials, rounds and sims. I tried it several times. Again I happened to experience more negative sims than positives. That is, as a counter I would lose more times than win. Negative also moneywise. What gives?
July 28th, 2026 at 7:34:21 AM
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Without counting-
Won $1200 in one hour or less
Won $1200 in one hour or less
July 28th, 2026 at 9:13:04 AM
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The number of hands you win is irrelevant. What matters is the bets you win or lose. With counting, you can lose more hands than you win, but you should have more money out on the hands you win. Counting allows you to bet more when you are favored and less when you aren't.
I've never had an extended losing streak, but players I know who are superior to me have had some crazy losing periods. I decided the best way to avoid the inevitable losing streak was to quit before it happened.
I've never had an extended losing streak, but players I know who are superior to me have had some crazy losing periods. I decided the best way to avoid the inevitable losing streak was to quit before it happened.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
July 28th, 2026 at 9:48:37 AM
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Blackjack card counting is not discussed very much in this forum, mainly because it is not valid practically. Although several authors tried so hard to sell their books, they haven’t played blackjack of nowadays.
July 29th, 2026 at 2:34:18 AM
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Quote: billryanThe number of hands you win is irrelevant. What matters is the bets you win or lose. With counting, you can lose more hands than you win, but you should have more money out on the hands you win. Counting allows you to bet more when you are favored and less when you aren't.
I've never had an extended losing streak, but players I know who are superior to me have had some crazy losing periods. I decided the best way to avoid the inevitable losing streak was to quit before it happened.
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The number of hands you win is NOT irrelevant. The player loses more hands including in positive counts. Thats the real problem of counting. Counters lose more money because they always increase the bet in high counts. You see the logic Bill. Righty, the counter gets more blackjacks in positive counts but not with a good frequency. If the bj chance was above 50% then counting would be a real killer. But its only some like 5-6% in high counts for player and same for dealer.
July 29th, 2026 at 2:36:04 AM
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Quote: acesideBlackjack card counting is not discussed very much in this forum, mainly because it is not valid practically. Although several authors tried so hard to sell their books, they haven’t played blackjack of nowadays.
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I have the same impression. The counting book authors dont really play blackjack. Maybe they tried early but it didnt work. they must have lost serious money. We know what happened to the most famous Ken Uston. Advertised for the same casino he faked he was discriminated against. It was only tv advertising. then Ken did drugs and worked for sheiks. Snyder witnessed in favor of casinos against card counters and wrote books. The smartest “counters” create bootcamps! there must be many idiots outthere!
Another impression – looks like the gambling forums are full of retirees who indulge in sweet fantasies.
July 29th, 2026 at 3:35:54 AM
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Most successful counters move on from counting to better opportunities. Especially in the last 6 years or so many have switched to playing slots.Quote: toolypQuote: acesideBlackjack card counting is not discussed very much in this forum, mainly because it is not valid practically. Although several authors tried so hard to sell their books, they haven’t played blackjack of nowadays.
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I have the same impression. The counting book authors dont really play blackjack. Maybe they tried early but it didnt work. they must have lost serious money. We know what happened to the most famous Ken Uston. Advertised for the same casino he faked he was discriminated against. It was only tv advertising. then Ken did drugs and worked for sheiks. Snyder witnessed in favor of casinos against card counters and wrote books. The smartest “counters” create bootcamps! there must be many idiots outthere!
Another impression – looks like the gambling forums are full of retirees who indulge in sweet fantasies.
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Happy days are here again
July 29th, 2026 at 4:40:30 AM
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Painting a picture of card counters as pursuing something that didn't work is baloney, their problem was getting banned from playing. There was a hay day and it's harder now, plus many are saying most discover better opportunities today.Quote: toolyp
... The counting book authors dont really play blackjack. Maybe they tried early but it didnt work. they must have lost serious money. We know what happened to the most famous Ken Uston. Advertised for the same casino he faked he was discriminated against. It was only tv advertising. then Ken did drugs and worked for sheiks. Snyder witnessed in favor of casinos against card counters and wrote books. The smartest “counters” create bootcamps! there must be many idiots outthere!
I think you may be still skeptical that there is even such a thing as advantage play. If you don't like the "fantasies" here it's odd you stick aroundQuote:Another impression – looks like the gambling forums are full of retirees who indulge in sweet fantasies.
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the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
July 29th, 2026 at 5:30:16 AM
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Quote: toolypQuote: acesideBlackjack card counting is not discussed very much in this forum, mainly because it is not valid practically. Although several authors tried so hard to sell their books, they haven’t played blackjack of nowadays.
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I have the same impression. The counting book authors dont really play blackjack. Maybe they tried early but it didnt work. they must have lost serious money. We know what happened to the most famous Ken Uston. Advertised for the same casino he faked he was discriminated against. It was only tv advertising. then Ken did drugs and worked for sheiks. Snyder witnessed in favor of casinos against card counters and wrote books. The smartest “counters” create bootcamps! there must be many idiots outthere!
Another impression – looks like the gambling forums are full of retirees who indulge in sweet fantasies.
link to original post
Your assertions that counting is not a valid advantage at Blackjack - that a 10-rich deck only helps the player to get more blackjacks - are complete nonsense.
Player is allowed to do things that dealer can't do.
1. Dealer must hit until 17, player will hit until 12 vs 5,6 and hit until 13 vs 2,3,4. This is a bigger advantage for player when the shoe is rich in ten-valued cards. because dealer will bust out more often.
2. Player can double down on 9,10,11. Dealer cannot. This makes more money for player when the shoe is rich in tens.
3. Player can split pairs. Splitting pairs makes more money when the shoe is rich in tens. Think about what drawing a ten means when splitting A-A; 8-8; 9-9; 7-7 and 6-6. versus not splitting those pairs.
Please don't clutter up our forum with misinformation.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
July 29th, 2026 at 5:58:51 AM
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Quote: gordonm888Quote: toolypQuote: acesideBlackjack card counting is not discussed very much in this forum, mainly because it is not valid practically. Although several authors tried so hard to sell their books, they haven’t played blackjack of nowadays.
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I have the same impression. The counting book authors dont really play blackjack. Maybe they tried early but it didnt work. they must have lost serious money. We know what happened to the most famous Ken Uston. Advertised for the same casino he faked he was discriminated against. It was only tv advertising. then Ken did drugs and worked for sheiks. Snyder witnessed in favor of casinos against card counters and wrote books. The smartest “counters” create bootcamps! there must be many idiots outthere!
Another impression – looks like the gambling forums are full of retirees who indulge in sweet fantasies.
link to original post
Your assertions that counting is not a valid advantage at Blackjack - that a 10-rich deck only helps the player to get more blackjacks - are complete nonsense.
Player is allowed to do things that dealer can't do.
1. Dealer must hit until 17, player will hit until 12 vs 5,6 and hit until 13 vs 2,3,4. This is a bigger advantage for player when the shoe is rich in ten-valued cards. because dealer will bust out more often.
2. Player can double down on 9,10,11. Dealer cannot. This makes more money for player when the shoe is rich in tens.
3. Player can split pairs. Splitting pairs makes more money when the shoe is rich in tens. Think about what drawing a ten means when splitting A-A; 8-8; 9-9; 7-7 and 6-6. versus not splitting those pairs.
Please don't clutter up our forum with misinformation.
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1. “Dealer will bust more often.” NOT true. Even Don Schlesinger said in Norm’s forum: “Dealer busts less in high counts.” Clear – there are more 10s, dealer gets pat hands more often.
2. “Player can double down on 9,10,11. Dealer cannot. This makes more money for player when the shoe is rich in tens.” NOT true. There are fewer double down hands in positive counts. Clear – no DD hand is possible with a 10; more tens, fewer DD possibilities.
3. “Player can split pairs. Splitting pairs makes more money when the shoe is rich in tens.” NOT true. There are fewer pairs hands in positive counts. Clear – there are more 10s, dealer gets pat cards more often. You don’t split 10s against 10 or A.
Curious thingy is 2. and 3. have better chances in negative counts. likey 6+4,6+5,6+6,4+4,5+5 for player and 4, 5, 6 upcard for dealer. Dont you think? AI think so, no?
July 29th, 2026 at 6:14:05 AM
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As I mentioned in another post in this forum, somebody invented a new terminology SCORE to describe risk of ruin in blackjack. I say it is nonsense. They misunderstood Kelly criteria.
July 29th, 2026 at 8:18:25 AM
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Quote: acesideAs I mentioned in another post in this forum, somebody invented a new terminology SCORE to describe risk of ruin in blackjack. I say it is nonsense. They misunderstood Kelly criteria.
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Ah yes the great Baccarat Card Counting debate of 2026
July 29th, 2026 at 8:37:11 AM
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Quote: acesideAs I mentioned in another post in this forum, somebody invented a new terminology SCORE to describe risk of ruin in blackjack. I say it is nonsense. They misunderstood Kelly criteria.
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AI to the rescue once more -
“SCORE Index in Blackjack
Separately, SCORE is an acronym for Standardized Comparison of Risk and Expectation, introduced by Don Schlesinger. It is not the same as the hand score but is a tool used by serious players to evaluate the quality of a blackjack game. SCORE combines multiple factors such as rules, risk, expected return, and penetration into a single number, allowing players to compare tables more intelligently.”
Don just posted today somethin typical in Norm’s forum :
“Richard Werthamer is a consummate asshole. He doesn't understand blackjack.
Don”
I replaced R.W. by Don Schlesinger. It fits like a glove (not OJ’s tho).
July 29th, 2026 at 8:52:59 AM
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Yes aceside luminary’s such as Ed Thorp and Bill Bentner misunderstood Kelly while making 100s of millions but you understand it. Ok ya rightQuote: acesideAs I mentioned in another post in this forum, somebody invented a new terminology SCORE to describe risk of ruin in blackjack. I say it is nonsense. They misunderstood Kelly criteria.
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Happy days are here again
July 29th, 2026 at 8:57:06 AM
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Quote: toolypQuote: gordonm888Quote: toolypQuote: acesideBlackjack card counting is not discussed very much in this forum, mainly because it is not valid practically. Although several authors tried so hard to sell their books, they haven’t played blackjack of nowadays.
link to original post
I have the same impression. The counting book authors dont really play blackjack. Maybe they tried early but it didnt work. they must have lost serious money. We know what happened to the most famous Ken Uston. Advertised for the same casino he faked he was discriminated against. It was only tv advertising. then Ken did drugs and worked for sheiks. Snyder witnessed in favor of casinos against card counters and wrote books. The smartest “counters” create bootcamps! there must be many idiots outthere!
Another impression – looks like the gambling forums are full of retirees who indulge in sweet fantasies.
link to original post
Your assertions that counting is not a valid advantage at Blackjack - that a 10-rich deck only helps the player to get more blackjacks - are complete nonsense.
Player is allowed to do things that dealer can't do.
1. Dealer must hit until 17, player will hit until 12 vs 5,6 and hit until 13 vs 2,3,4. This is a bigger advantage for player when the shoe is rich in ten-valued cards. because dealer will bust out more often.
2. Player can double down on 9,10,11. Dealer cannot. This makes more money for player when the shoe is rich in tens.
3. Player can split pairs. Splitting pairs makes more money when the shoe is rich in tens. Think about what drawing a ten means when splitting A-A; 8-8; 9-9; 7-7 and 6-6. versus not splitting those pairs.
Please don't clutter up our forum with misinformation.
link to original post
1. “Dealer will bust more often.” NOT true. Even Don Schlesinger said in Norm’s forum: “Dealer busts less in high counts.” Clear – there are more 10s, dealer gets pat hands more often.
2. “Player can double down on 9,10,11. Dealer cannot. This makes more money for player when the shoe is rich in tens.” NOT true. There are fewer double down hands in positive counts. Clear – no DD hand is possible with a 10; more tens, fewer DD possibilities.
3. “Player can split pairs. Splitting pairs makes more money when the shoe is rich in tens.” NOT true. There are fewer pairs hands in positive counts. Clear – there are more 10s, dealer gets pat cards more often. You don’t split 10s against 10 or A.
Curious thingy is 2. and 3. have better chances in negative counts. likey 6+4,6+5,6+6,4+4,5+5 for player and 4, 5, 6 upcard for dealer. Dont you think? AI think so, no?
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My wording is being misinterpreted. When you have an 8-8 pair you make more when splitting if the shoe is 10's rich; and dealer cannot split 8-8 pair. When you have an 11 you can double down and will make more money on that decision when the shoe is ten-rich. And the dealer cannot double down on his 9,10,or 11. The frequency of making an 8-8 pair may be less but thank god for that because it's a terrible hand. Its true that the frequency of making a 9,10,or11 is lower when the shoe is 10-rich but it's also lower for the dealer.
When shoe is ten-rich, dealer gets pat hands more often? Yes, that's true but so do you.
The bottom line is that if you add 10s to the shoe, or subtract non-tens from the shoe, the players EV will increase. This calculation has been done a million times. If you want I will do it and show the results here.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
July 29th, 2026 at 12:01:15 PM
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Quote: acesideAs I mentioned in another post in this forum, somebody invented a new terminology SCORE to describe risk of ruin in blackjack. I say it is nonsense. They misunderstood Kelly criteria.
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I didn't think Snyder's SCORE was about RoR.
edit: SCORE was developed by Schlesinger, not Snyder. My mistake, Snyder wrote so darn much.
Last edited by: Dieter on Jul 30, 2026
May the cards fall in your favor.
July 29th, 2026 at 12:46:44 PM
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Quote: DieterQuote: acesideAs I mentioned in another post in this forum, somebody invented a new terminology SCORE to describe risk of ruin in blackjack. I say it is nonsense. They misunderstood Kelly criteria.
link to original post
I didn't think Snyder's SCORE was about RoR.
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It kind of is, it's a figure of merit for a game which includes how much of your bankroll you can bet and still be within Kelly, which protects from ruin.
July 30th, 2026 at 2:43:54 AM
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“My wording is being misinterpreted. When you have an 8-8 pair you make more when splitting if the shoe is 10's rich”
Card counting is about 10s not 8s. The counter only knows if there are more 10s than stiffs in the deck. he doesnt know nothin about 8s (or 7 or 9). He doesnt count those cards. If the deck is rich in 10s you and dealer get more 10s not 8s. you chose the worst pair as an example. if you play wizards online app, it advises you to surrender 8+8; split is bad. without surrender you stand on that 16. even don Schlesinger says so. you dont wanna lose 2 hands instead of 1 cuz dealer possibly has 20 with the extra 10s in the deck. Good thing you don’t really play blackjack.
How about 6+4,6+5,5+5,6+6 etc against dealers 4,5,6? Well that happens more often when there are FEWER 10s in the deck, in negative counts. but that’s not card counting. You dont raise the bet when there are more 2-6 cards in the deck. Curious thingy is I read some car counters wondered why they won more often in negative counts. it makes sense cuz of more situations of doubles and splits but they bet the minimum!
“the players EV will increase. This calculation has been done a million times. If you want I will do it and show the results here.”
Sorry. I see you are admin but honestly you are wrong. there are NO calculations in card counting, in blackjack in general. even don Schlesinger said so. he said there is no way to prove a counting system other than by simulations. Some people have a problem with that. Don and others are selective. they choose only the sims that satisfy their positions or systems. but recent bj apps most notably BJTheorem show that sometimes there are more losing sims than winning ones including moneywise for any counting system.
It might be hard to digest for some but this is the cruel reality of counting cards. Don’t kill the messenger!
Card counting is about 10s not 8s. The counter only knows if there are more 10s than stiffs in the deck. he doesnt know nothin about 8s (or 7 or 9). He doesnt count those cards. If the deck is rich in 10s you and dealer get more 10s not 8s. you chose the worst pair as an example. if you play wizards online app, it advises you to surrender 8+8; split is bad. without surrender you stand on that 16. even don Schlesinger says so. you dont wanna lose 2 hands instead of 1 cuz dealer possibly has 20 with the extra 10s in the deck. Good thing you don’t really play blackjack.
How about 6+4,6+5,5+5,6+6 etc against dealers 4,5,6? Well that happens more often when there are FEWER 10s in the deck, in negative counts. but that’s not card counting. You dont raise the bet when there are more 2-6 cards in the deck. Curious thingy is I read some car counters wondered why they won more often in negative counts. it makes sense cuz of more situations of doubles and splits but they bet the minimum!
“the players EV will increase. This calculation has been done a million times. If you want I will do it and show the results here.”
Sorry. I see you are admin but honestly you are wrong. there are NO calculations in card counting, in blackjack in general. even don Schlesinger said so. he said there is no way to prove a counting system other than by simulations. Some people have a problem with that. Don and others are selective. they choose only the sims that satisfy their positions or systems. but recent bj apps most notably BJTheorem show that sometimes there are more losing sims than winning ones including moneywise for any counting system.
It might be hard to digest for some but this is the cruel reality of counting cards. Don’t kill the messenger!
July 30th, 2026 at 4:24:05 AM
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.
I counted cards one day each week for 7 years playing between 12 and 14 hours straight (breaking only to eat something) in AC in the 90s
I bet much more on high counts
I ended up ahead an average of about 75% of the one day sessions
I had significant profits every single year
I quit playing because it was very hard work and a long drive - about 4 hours each way
and I was making much, much more in the stock market doing very little work
I guess you will say you don't believe this
that's okay - whatever -
.
I counted cards one day each week for 7 years playing between 12 and 14 hours straight (breaking only to eat something) in AC in the 90s
I bet much more on high counts
I ended up ahead an average of about 75% of the one day sessions
I had significant profits every single year
I quit playing because it was very hard work and a long drive - about 4 hours each way
and I was making much, much more in the stock market doing very little work
I guess you will say you don't believe this
that's okay - whatever -
.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
July 30th, 2026 at 5:10:30 AM
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It seems you are saying successful card counters are those who quit blackjack for other more profitable opportunities. Somebody mentioned Bill Benter, but he quit blackjack to crack horse race code and made billions from it.
July 30th, 2026 at 5:34:25 AM
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Quote: lilredrooster.
I counted cards one day each week for 7 years playing between 12 and 14 hours straight (breaking only to eat something) in AC in the 90s
I bet much more on high counts
I ended up ahead an average of about 75% of the one day sessions
I had significant profits every single year
I quit playing because it was very hard work and a long drive - about 4 hours each way
and I was making much, much more in the stock market doing very little work
I guess you will say you don't believe this
that's okay - whatever -
.
link to original post
“The stuff that dreams are made of.” - Humphrey Bogart, The Maltese Falcon
July 30th, 2026 at 5:54:51 AM
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Quote: toolypQuote: lilredrooster.
I guess you will say you don't believe this
that's okay - whatever -
.
link to original post
“The stuff that dreams are made of.” - Humphrey Bogart, The Maltese Falcon
link to original post
my claims are very mild
I was not a high roller - not even close -
there are a great many who made much more than me
and a great many more who lost because they thought they had the skills to beat the game but actually did not
here is a link about the very first genius who attacked the game of blackjack - he was a Professor of Mathematics and worked at M.I.T.
from the link: "Thorp is the author of Beat the Dealer, which mathematically proved that the house advantage in blackjack could be overcome by card counting"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Jul 30, 2026
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
July 30th, 2026 at 7:35:40 AM
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In this book, the author experimented blackjack card counting using a borrowed bankroll of $10,000 and ended up with a roughly $7000 profit, as I recall.
July 30th, 2026 at 8:27:49 AM
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I believe every intelligent gambler understands how and why card counting works, but most will quickly pick up on much better ways to beat the casino.
A $25,000 starting BR may eke out a small living playing BJ, but the same $25,000 used to seed a multi-card operation will produce much better results. Somebody with a $25,000 BR can easily manipulate the various sports books to make a better living.
It's not that counting doesn't work; it's that it barely makes the list of best ways to make money in a casino.
Arguing about it on a forum is absolutely negative ev.
A $25,000 starting BR may eke out a small living playing BJ, but the same $25,000 used to seed a multi-card operation will produce much better results. Somebody with a $25,000 BR can easily manipulate the various sports books to make a better living.
It's not that counting doesn't work; it's that it barely makes the list of best ways to make money in a casino.
Arguing about it on a forum is absolutely negative ev.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
July 30th, 2026 at 8:43:28 AM
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.
another great blackjack story is that of Ken Uston who wrote "Million Dollar Blackjack"
of course, he made his millions at blackjack quite a long time ago
the techniques he used - team play and a designated player who would be signalled and come in and make huge bets would probably not fly today
he was eventually banned from casinos all around the world and at times wore various costumes to conceal his identity
there is a tremendous amount of interest in card counting even now
there is a forum devoted to it which gets a great amount of activity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Uston
.
another great blackjack story is that of Ken Uston who wrote "Million Dollar Blackjack"
of course, he made his millions at blackjack quite a long time ago
the techniques he used - team play and a designated player who would be signalled and come in and make huge bets would probably not fly today
he was eventually banned from casinos all around the world and at times wore various costumes to conceal his identity
there is a tremendous amount of interest in card counting even now
there is a forum devoted to it which gets a great amount of activity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Uston
.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Jul 30, 2026
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
July 30th, 2026 at 1:04:31 PM
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Card counting is much more difficult than it used to be because of a six deck shoe and a higher minimum bet in order to get decent rules. Also no surrender, no re-splitting aces, less penetration, and no mid-shoe entry like in the good old days (from what I've read; never got to experience it myself).
Last time I played (a year ago), I won $25, but it was at a $25 table, so just barely eked out a win. They didn't care that my bet spread was $25 to $150. After the last big bet that won and got me up to positive territory, I colored up.
Last time I played (a year ago), I won $25, but it was at a $25 table, so just barely eked out a win. They didn't care that my bet spread was $25 to $150. After the last big bet that won and got me up to positive territory, I colored up.
July 30th, 2026 at 6:49:10 PM
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I got some good advice on how to get by as a counter long ago. From 1978, well before I was old enough to play in a casino.
He said someone won every bet he ever made, and that might have been an exaggeration but if you're only placing +EV bets it might as well be so. And that he's still quite good, and never really got caught, because he was quicker than they thought and he would just turn and suddenly walk away.
See it's not the cards that ever do you wrong. The trick is not to play the game too long. It's really the only risk I'm willing to take.
And when I'm playing now, I move around from game to game as long as nobody is standing in my way, and I turn on the charm long enough to get by.
Forgot where I got that advice, but it stuck with me. And I guess card counting is still the same.
He said someone won every bet he ever made, and that might have been an exaggeration but if you're only placing +EV bets it might as well be so. And that he's still quite good, and never really got caught, because he was quicker than they thought and he would just turn and suddenly walk away.
See it's not the cards that ever do you wrong. The trick is not to play the game too long. It's really the only risk I'm willing to take.
And when I'm playing now, I move around from game to game as long as nobody is standing in my way, and I turn on the charm long enough to get by.
Forgot where I got that advice, but it stuck with me. And I guess card counting is still the same.
July 30th, 2026 at 7:45:18 PM
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Quote: lilredrooster.
I counted cards one day each week for 7 years playing between 12 and 14 hours straight (breaking only to eat something) in AC in the 90s
I bet much more on high counts
I ended up ahead an average of about 75% of the one day sessions
I had significant profits every single year
I quit playing because it was very hard work and a long drive - about 4 hours each way
and I was making much, much more in the stock market doing very little work
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In 1976 I had just finished my MS in math and decided to take a break from school and go on a cross country motorcycle ride. I had never been to a casino before but since my route was thru Reno I planned to rectify this. In anticipation I bought a copy of Beat the Dealer which I studied for a couple of weeks prior to setting off.
When I got to Reno I spent a total of one hour card counting BJ. At the end of the hour, on the plus side I was $60 ahead but on the minus side I had to turn down all the free booze I was offered. I decided card counting wasn’t worth the effort and I could make a lot more money and have a lot more fun programming computers. It would be 40 years before I played BJ again.
Guess I figured out the same lesson as you, just quicker.
My goal of being well informed conflicts with my goal of remaining sane.
August 2nd, 2026 at 2:15:53 AM
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Quote: toolypWithout counting-
Won $1200 in one hour or less
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Okay so I tried Wizards bj app with card counting this time around. the default system is hilo. the app applies any system perfectly cos it counts perfectly. No human can do that despite what some sickos say. Humans are not perfect. I read in a couple of forums a sicko say he counted two tables at the same time!!!
Here is the start of the game - bankroll $5000.
I played 6 out of 8 decks as in my previous game when i didnt count. with counting i lost $600 in the same playing time. Im sure other guys here tried the app. why dont you post the screenshots? Aint no shame, win or lose as it is all free.
August 2nd, 2026 at 6:31:14 AM
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If you played 6 out of 8 decks, you were not supposed to win from card counting. This is just because the penetration is too little to count effectively.
Another issue is the bet spread you used for counting. Many authors used an optimal bet spread, but I believe any optimal is not optimal. In another post in this forum, we could not agree on the definition of Kelly fraction. Some authors used this definition
Kelly fraction = edge / variance,
But I say it should be
Kelly fraction = edge / odds.
Another issue is the bet spread you used for counting. Many authors used an optimal bet spread, but I believe any optimal is not optimal. In another post in this forum, we could not agree on the definition of Kelly fraction. Some authors used this definition
Kelly fraction = edge / variance,
But I say it should be
Kelly fraction = edge / odds.
August 2nd, 2026 at 11:20:02 AM
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Quote: acesideIf you played 6 out of 8 decks, you were not supposed to win from card counting. This is just because the penetration is too little to count effectively.
that is simply not correct
of course an 8 deck game with 2 decks cut out of play is nowhere near as good as an LV double deck or 4 deck game
but it's still beatable
The Atlantic City game was primarily 8 decks for many years - (not sure about now) - cutting out about 2 decks out of play - sometimes a little more sometimes a litlle less
lots and lots of players beat the AC game - they just didn't make the money as fast as did players in LV
but Kenny Uston challenged an AC barring and won in a New Jersey Supreme Court decision
AC could not bar players - they could take some countermeaures against APs but those measures were nowhere near as strong as what LV did (does)
so, although many would say an 8 deck game sucks - there were some good points to playing there
this is what the New Jersey Supreme Court said:
"the state's control of Atlantic City's casinos is so complete that only the New Jersey Casino Control Commission has the power to make rules to exclude skillful players."
the Casino Control Commission never made a regulation re card counting - so AC casinos are not allowed to ban card counters
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/06/nyregion/court-rules-casinos-may-not-bar-card-counters.html
.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Aug 2, 2026
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
August 2nd, 2026 at 12:17:11 PM
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Another piece of wrong information. 6 out of 8 can be beat . It just depends on what size betspread you use.Quote: acesideIf you played 6 out of 8 decks, you were not supposed to win from card counting. This is just because the penetration is too little to count effectively.
Another issue is the bet spread you used for counting. Many authors used an optimal bet spread, but I believe any optimal is not optimal. In another post in this forum, we could not agree on the definition of Kelly fraction. Some authors used this definition
Kelly fraction = edge / variance,
But I say it should be
Kelly fraction = edge / odds.
link to original post
Happy days are here again
August 2nd, 2026 at 2:03:24 PM
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Well, in theory, every shoe game is beatable. However, no in practice. Tell us, what bet spread is needed to beat an 8-deck blackjack 6/8-cut game of nowadays?
I am more interested in people discussing Kelly fraction.
I am more interested in people discussing Kelly fraction.
August 2nd, 2026 at 2:23:13 PM
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Quote: acesideWell, in theory, every shoe game is beatable. However, no in practice. Tell us, what bet spread is needed to beat an 8-deck blackjack 6/8-cut game of nowadays?
I am more interested in people discussing Kelly fraction.
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Well if you can Wong in then no spread is needed but otherwise I think a16-1 would do it. I don’t have software handy and I haven’t counted for many years.
Happy days are here again
August 2nd, 2026 at 2:24:41 PM
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Quote: HunterhillQuote: acesideWell, in theory, every shoe game is beatable. However, no in practice. Tell us, what bet spread is needed to beat an 8-deck blackjack 6/8-cut game of nowadays?
I am more interested in people discussing Kelly fraction.
link to original post
Well if you can Wong in then no spread is needed but otherwise I think a16-1 would do it. I don’t have software handy and I haven’t counted for many years.
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Also speaking of blackjack Harrahs Atlantic City is now offering late surrender on some tables
Happy days are here again
August 2nd, 2026 at 2:44:48 PM
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Quote: HunterhillQuote: HunterhillQuote: acesideWell, in theory, every shoe game is beatable. However, no in practice. Tell us, what bet spread is needed to beat an 8-deck blackjack 6/8-cut game of nowadays?
I am more interested in people discussing Kelly fraction.
link to original post
Well if you can Wong in then no spread is needed but otherwise I think a16-1 would do it. I don’t have software handy and I haven’t counted for many years.
link to original post
Also speaking of blackjack Harrahs Atlantic City is now offering late surrender on some tables
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That's great! Surrender is huge for a counter, and at the same time being so few muggles use it well it makes money for the casino too.
When AC started up they had early surrender, which is astronomically huge for a counter and they got hit hard by well funded teams because of it, and to this day a lot of places are paranoid about surrender, and mostly because they don't know the difference between early and late surrender and how significant that is.
Now when Pennsylvania started their table games, blackjack rules are and have always been set by law and fortunately they were the "good Strip rules" that existed at the time. S17, DAS, LS, and the only options they have are number of decks and I believe resplitting aces, which is also good but not as good as LS.
So first moth they are open an dealing, I go to Mt. Airy and play blackjack. I get a hand, dealer checks for BJ and I call for surrender. She didn't know what I meant and she calls the pit boss over. Know-it-all comes over "Oh no no no, that's early surrender! We don't allow that!" The he goes on to give the dealers a lecture on the dangers of early surrender.
I say "Wait, she just checked for blackjack. I am calling for late surrender."
"Oh no, that's early surrender!"
"So what's late surrender?"
"Late surrender means... it means... oh wait someone over there needs me...."
So rather than smarten anybody up I get out of there, and later I found out they got a fine for not playing by the official state rules and the problem was corrected. It was probably all due to that one guy too.
August 2nd, 2026 at 7:01:33 PM
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Quote: HunterhillQuote: acesideWell, in theory, every shoe game is beatable. However, no in practice. Tell us, what bet spread is needed to beat an 8-deck blackjack 6/8-cut game of nowadays?
I am more interested in people discussing Kelly fraction.
link to original post
Well if you can Wong in then no spread is needed but otherwise I think a16-1 would do it. I don’t have software handy and I haven’t counted for many years.
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I just simulated this example. Here is what I found. Assuming a counter playing heads-up with the dealer, he will make about $20 an hour using a Hi-Lo computer with a bet spread of $25/$50/$100/$200/$400 at true count from 0 to +4.
August 3rd, 2026 at 1:51:39 AM
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Quote: acesideQuote: HunterhillQuote: acesideWell, in theory, every shoe game is beatable. However, no in practice. Tell us, what bet spread is needed to beat an 8-deck blackjack 6/8-cut game of nowadays?
I am more interested in people discussing Kelly fraction.
link to original post
Well if you can Wong in then no spread is needed but otherwise I think a16-1 would do it. I don’t have software handy and I haven’t counted for many years.
link to original post
I just simulated this example. Here is what I found. Assuming a counter playing heads-up with the dealer, he will make about $20 an hour using a Hi-Lo computer with a bet spread of $25/$50/$100/$200/$400 at true count from 0 to +4.
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So your betting ramp is TCx2. I did also TCx4 in wizards app cos min bet was unreally low $5. You can try 25(TC<=0);100(TC+1);200(TC+2);400(TC+3);800(TC+4) etc. No big deal, it’s free. and its easy to take a screenshot and post it here. Why is everybody afraid to post screenshots with a free app? you lose nothing. Forget about wong, you lose yor seat in a hurry.
August 3rd, 2026 at 5:30:54 AM
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I’ve tried your bet spread. The hourly earning is about $50 when playing all alone.
August 3rd, 2026 at 6:18:14 AM
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deleted
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
August 3rd, 2026 at 6:27:12 AM
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Well, post your numbers to let others exam.
August 3rd, 2026 at 6:34:43 AM
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Quote: acesideI’ve tried your bet spread. The hourly earning is about $50 when playing all alone.
I deleted because I saw this post (which I hadn't seen at the time of my deleted post)
this is more accurate then your other post and imo is close to being correct
the profits can be boosted by back counting and Wonging in on high counts
but some or many casinos may now have NMSE - no mid shoe entry - which effectively 86es that strategy
when I was counting in the 90s mid shoe entry was allowed everywhere
.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Aug 3, 2026
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
August 3rd, 2026 at 7:06:42 AM
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Quote: acesideI’ve tried your bet spread. The hourly earning is about $50 when playing all alone.
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screenshot?
August 3rd, 2026 at 7:07:39 AM
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Quote: lilredroosterQuote: acesideI’ve tried your bet spread. The hourly earning is about $50 when playing all alone.
I deleted because I saw this post (which I hadn't seen at the time of my deleted post)
this is more accurate then your other post and imo is close to being correct
the profits can be boosted by back counting and Wonging in on high counts
but some or many casinos may now have NMSE - no mid shoe entry - which effectively 86es that strategy
when I was counting in the 90s mid shoe entry was allowed everywhere
.
link to original post
screenshot?
August 3rd, 2026 at 8:26:39 AM
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You can enhance those numbers by walking away when the count becomes too negative and is not likely to recover, which is a whole topic in itself. Buy Don Schlesinger’s book which covers that and many other related topics.Quote: acesideI’ve tried your bet spread. The hourly earning is about $50 when playing all alone.
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Happy days are here again
August 3rd, 2026 at 9:07:10 AM
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I doubt. If you sit out, your number of hands playing drops a lot, so your hourly earning amount may drop too.
August 3rd, 2026 at 11:13:18 AM
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Quote: acesideI doubt. If you sit out, your number of hands playing drops a lot, so your hourly earning amount may drop too.
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The general idea of sitting out is that your winnings drop, but your losses drop more.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 3rd, 2026 at 11:39:55 AM
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This is true. Another factor may affect the hourly earning amount too. A player may get 120 hands per hour if playing himself alone, but 20 hands in a full 6-player table.
August 3rd, 2026 at 1:55:30 PM
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A player playing one-on-one will get many more hands but can't run to the bathroom when the tank counts. A player at a full table will play fewer hands, but can choose when not to play a hand, and an experienced player can scavenge a few hands per hour. Little things can add up over time.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
August 3rd, 2026 at 5:56:05 PM
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Sigh… I give up. Please read some blackjack booksQuote: acesideI doubt. If you sit out, your number of hands playing drops a lot, so your hourly earning amount may drop too.
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Happy days are here again
