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Keyser
Keyser
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October 4th, 2011 at 2:56:27 PM permalink
This entire dice sliding lawsuit is just plain sleazy. It stinks of 'bad faith' on the part of the Wynn.

Here's why... Why didn't the pit crew or surveillance stop the game once they saw that they were sliding?
Are we for even on minute to believe that they weren't aware of the slide until after they viewed the video tapes? Or did they just decide at the time that it's ok if they slide just some of the time, because it would give the casino a chance to win the money back even if the players won?

Here's what I believe really happened. The Wynn knew they were sliding, and chose to let them continue playing, realizing that if they were to lose, that they would win the players money. If the players were fortunate enough to win, then the casino knew that they could always use the video tape in order to sue for the return of the money. The Wynn saw this play as a win/win game. This entire folly is the fault of the Wynn for not enforcing proper gaming procedures. They intentionally chose to bend the rules so that they could have a shot at winning the big players bank.

Again, this predatory gambling on the part of the casino. It's a disturbing trend in which casinos are also reviewing big wins to see if they can win back some of the money that they have lost. It's sleazy when Caesar's Palace does it, and it's sleazy when the Wynn does it. The fact that the players were foreigners makes it easier for the casinos to get away with it in the end.

Put the word out, the Wynn is sweating the money these days. If you're lucky enough to win big, then they will use their attorneys or the patron dispute process in an attempt to win their money back! Truly disgusting!

-Keyser
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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October 4th, 2011 at 3:11:38 PM permalink
I would like more data on this but I assume the slides were blocked to some degree. It may be that the crew let the issue well... slide for awhile but I assume it was mostly akin to a discovery of switched dice by an after the fact review of a tape. The casino is not bound by its crews lack of vigilance.
midwestgb
midwestgb
Joined: Dec 8, 2009
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October 4th, 2011 at 3:14:41 PM permalink
Agree with Keyser. Despicable casino conduct.
Keyser
Keyser
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October 4th, 2011 at 3:32:29 PM permalink
And clearly they aren't bound by any real code of ethics. It's a sleazy enough situation that I won't return to the Wynn, especially since this appears to be how they treat their high rollers that are fortunate enough to win. I hope these players have the common sense to counter sue the Wynn for 'bad faith'.

And where's gaming? Is bad faith acceptable in LV now? Is this a sign of the times in LV?

Someone needs to contact Bob Nersesian, and the LV Bear.


Again, truly disgusting
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 4th, 2011 at 3:37:02 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

This entire dice sliding lawsuit is just plain sleazy. It stinks of 'bad faith' on the part of the Wynn.

Here's why... Why didn't the pit crew or surveillance stop the game once they saw that they were sliding?


The crap dealers and Boxman had to be in on it, or had been ordered to allow it to continue - to their absolute amazement.
You don't have to wait until players win or lose extended sessions. One of two instances of the cheating manuever with a few minutes of surveillance tape, plus dealer statements, it can be all over for the perpetrators.

Quote: Keyser

Are we for even on minute to believe that they weren't aware of the slide until after they viewed the video tapes? Or did they just decide at the time that it's ok if they slide just some of the time, because it would give the casino a chance to win the money back even if the players won?

Here's what I believe really happened. The Wynn knew they were sliding, and chose to let them continue playing, realizing that if they were to lose, that they would win the players money. If the players were fortunate enough to win, then the casino knew that they could always use the video tape in order to sue for the return of the money. The Wynn saw this play as a win/win game. This entire folly is the fault of the Wynn for not enforcing proper gaming procedures. They intentionally chose to bend the rules so that they could have a shot at winning the big players bank.


I hate to say it, but I fully agree with this.

Quote: Keyser

Again, this predatory gambling on the part of the casino. It's a disturbing trend in which casinos are also reviewing big wins to see if they can win back some of the money that they have lost. It's sleazy when Caesar's Palace does it, and it's sleazy when the Wynn does it. The fact that the players were foreigners makes it easier for the casinos to get away with it in the end.

Put the word out, the Wynn is sweating the money these days. If you're lucky enough to win big, then they will use their attorneys or the patron dispute process in an attempt to win their money back! Truly disgusting!

-Keyser


They weren't sweating the money at all. They were just being a bit harsh and sensationalistic about it, but wrong when they could have stopped it earlier.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 4th, 2011 at 3:38:36 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

And where's gaming?



Did you check Steve Wynn's back pocket? You can
usually find them there.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Keyser
Keyser
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October 4th, 2011 at 3:39:07 PM permalink
Evidently!

I wonder if the Wynn casino also tried to freeze their front money.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 4th, 2011 at 4:05:33 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

And clearly they aren't bound by any real code of ethics. It's a sleazy enough situation that I won't return to the Wynn, especially since this appears to be how they treat their high rollers that are fortunate enough to win.


Hey - these dirtbags (and they were indeed that) - weren't any sort of high rollers!
They weren't gamblers, they were downright cheaters sliding the dice - can such a distinction be made around here???
Yet only the casino is painted as the bad guy - and not the cheaters themselves also!
(They should have indeed had equal bile sprayed on them, too!)

They were clear casino cheats whom the Wynn also wanted and waited to see win or lose for some reason they'd have a difficult time explaining away, - after the first couple of clear cheating actions, but hadn't done so. I do give you that.

That's sleazy enough.
You do NOT have to wait until the player wins money from any cheating method to strengthen your case.
Catching them straight away and putting the brakes on it strengthens your case as a casino operator!
True.

Two dice slide attempts - caught on surveillance tape - and with dealer/boxman statements, they could have been quitely detained, arrested, booked, made bail, serve some sentence (or probation with a huge fine), - without this shit hitting the papers. I do not see how their delaying dilly-dally handling of the situation had helped.

One casino that I know of arrested two people in the last five weeks on their first (but clearly caught) cheating manuevers very quietly, no press or lawsuits. A little security growl-down in one case, and an "aw, shoot - cuff me!" in another.

In Wynn's defense, perhaps they were trying to make a strong statement about this kind of crap, which I can see and understand, but feel is very misguided.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Keyser
Keyser
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October 4th, 2011 at 4:21:44 PM permalink
If they were openly sliding the dice, then why didn't the Wynn stop them?
Exactly how incompetent are they over there?

I suspect the Wynn got caught with their pants down and is trying to get the money back.

Again, this smells more like 'bad faith'.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 4th, 2011 at 5:17:24 PM permalink
The thing is, the Wynn isn't incompetent at all in this business.
They are the best in the business on dice and other table games.

Certainly their Game Protection and Surveillance are among the very best.

You catch a casino cheat in the act right away at a place of that level, the Men In Black quietly wisk them away to a "comfy room," to explain the facts of life while waiting for Metro Police to book them - with no press coverage or any type of scene at any time. Have your lawyers call our lawyers kind of thing, make restitution, serve a sentence, pay a fine, and from now on stay out of casinos. No cable television show on this! And certainly no loud lawsuit announcement against casino cheat foreigners in the Las Vegas Review Journal. Just very distasteful, unseemly - smells very bad.

Maybe Steve Wynn was trying to set an example case as a new paradigm that this shit is completely out - this I can see as his personal bold statement on this matter.

Casino cheats get caught,
- okay, they get backed off a table, detained and arrested away from people, and so everyone calls their lawyers. They make restitution, and do some sort of a sentence or large fine, and keep the volume level low.

A lot of players try this crap in a "What Was I Thinking" kind or "Easy Money/Career Mistake Choice" kind of thing..."Advantage play" mentality, I call it, just to poke a few board members in the eye in a friendly way.

I do not understand this very public and noisy new process of handling a couple of casino dice cheats at such a high-level Strip property, unless it is to set a new model to clamp down on the risks of gamblers' thinking, "casino cheating is the new sport of the game" - which some already do think this way. The new gambling juice is the stuff that I can get away with at a casino: If I didn't get caught, and I made me some money, then "it was all legal and okay all along" is obviously the thinking of these people. Too many of them.

Some bad gamblers or cheats actually feel this way, and take action on this thinking in the casino. Don't totally blame Wynn on a harsh counter-response, as you can also blame those who started this entire mess with the cheating manuevers in the first place.


Book 'em, Dano, be done with it
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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