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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 4th, 2011 at 10:33:18 PM permalink
As absurb as it sounds, it is absurd as it is.
Vegas is a great place to play, - and where good people are treated with great respect and consideration. Cheats get thankfully caught. Why are you guys defending them to the ends of the earth??

The people we are talking here were absoultely clear casino cheats who were caught.
Granted, Wynn's actions were a bit slow on this matter - but how exactly does this make these absolute "dead-to-rights" casino cheat slimebags - any sort of saints or robin-hoods or other than "bad faith??"

The dice-slider casinos cheats were the bad faith actors cheats in this drama - and from the very get-go in the matter,
- and Wynn's (also) bad faith actions don't make them an iota more innocent...so why in the world say otherwise??
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Keyser
Keyser
Joined: Apr 16, 2010
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October 4th, 2011 at 10:37:02 PM permalink
Well, like I've said, the whole thing is just plain sleazy.
NandB
NandB
Joined: Jan 26, 2010
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October 5th, 2011 at 12:19:53 AM permalink
Well following the article and posts...

The Wynn didnot catch it at first, when they did, and were certain, the looked back to see if if the perps were routinely trying to slide the dice. The Wynn found a pattern of abuse (cheating), and prosecuted.

Then again, if I set the dice to 4-4 up, so that I can see the House mark on the back of the center pip of the "3", should I always orient the dice that way before rolling, or is that a cheat? Or should I only play craps when a certain letter appears in said position?

N&B
To err is human. To air is Jordan. To arrr is pirate.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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October 5th, 2011 at 12:56:03 AM permalink
I've been reporting on dice influencing and the law for years. (No one can "control" dice.)

Here are the facts about sliding, why it is illegal, but why "influencing" and "setting" are legal:

My report on the Wynn event and more on dice control legality
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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October 5th, 2011 at 3:08:38 AM permalink


Here's my stupid guess.

Steve Wynn is rabid about cheating. He admits that when he bought the Golden Nugget in the mid 1970's he fired over half the staff for being cheats. I think he is concerned enough about this problem that he wants his boxman to call "no rolls" for dice that don't hit the back wall, but he doesn't want to alienate his players.

So he needs a high profile case with a flashy client. He will quietly work out a deal, because he is on very shaky ground to explain why the boxman didn't call "no roll". In the meantime he can institute a firm "must hit the back wall" policy, and everyone in the casino will be understanding.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 5th, 2011 at 3:23:48 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

He admits that when he bought the Golden Nugget in the mid 1970's he fired over half the staff for being cheats.



Well, yeah. My first trip to Vegas was in 1975 and it was a Mob
town. I didn't know that till later, though. It was a much friendlier
place then, the dealers were upbeat and cool. Of course, most
casinos weren't pooling tips yet, so thats a large part of it.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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October 5th, 2011 at 3:42:13 AM permalink
Whoa there! I don't think this is some friendly publicity stunt.

>Steve Wynn is rabid about cheating.
Most casino owners are.

>when he bought the Golden Nugget he fired over half the staff for being cheats.
This was reluctant. He was confronted by a decades old bar-owning acquaintance whose back room was filled with top casino officials divvying up chips at the end of each graveyard shift. It was the worst time to have to fire so many of his staff, but he had no choice.

>he wants his boxman to call "no rolls" for dice that don't hit the back wall, but he doesn't want to alienate his players.
ALL casinos want that. Its a matter of degree and courtesy and alertness. Not every beautiful woman who bumps into you has just lifted your wallet. Sometimes she is just a beautiful woman in high heels whose had too much to drink. Sometimes you may even get lucky.

Boxman often keep silent the first time, say something the second time, say it more emphatically the third time, etc. No one wants a legitimate player to become offended and walk out in a huff. Likewise no one wants a dice cheat to get away with anything. The stick and the boxman are part of a team and they know how to work together to keep an atmosphere pleasant but to also run a straight game. Sometimes a stickman will make a joke, sometimes a stickman will give the nod to the pitboss.

>So he needs a high profile case with a flashy client.
Lawyers are more expensive than lighting a fire under a boxman.
No matter how fetching the defendant is, the publicity is still bad.
No matter what the players are like, the cheapest and most effective cure is inside the casino, not inside a court room.
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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October 5th, 2011 at 5:59:14 AM permalink
I couldn't find a video on Youtube of a dice slider. Which is surprising as one can usually find anything on there. Dice manipulation, and setting yes, but no die sliding on the same side across the table.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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October 5th, 2011 at 7:42:05 AM permalink
Scarne's generation didn't have youtube but it did have "dirty crews". These are people with poker player morality who switched to dice the easy way: find out which Boxman is behind in his mortgage payments (or the equivalent). Now its all over but the proof, which I think will be coming out in court soon.
MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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October 5th, 2011 at 8:14:50 AM permalink
Alan's interview with the retired agent was interesting, but the interviewee's comments only seems to muddle the issue of illegality.

It is claimed that a throw is deemed legal only if the dice are "tossed in the air, hit the table surface at least once and hit the back wall."

That might be the criteria for a casino to accept a throw, but as to whether a player can be prosecuted for not meeting these criteria is a different question entirely.

I am unaware of any Nevada statute or regulation that spells out the above criteria as defining the requirements for a legal throw; if there are any, please point them out.

I am also unaware of any appellate Nevada criminal cases wherein the courts have wrestled with, clarified and ruled on this thorny issue: I rather doubt that any Nevada court has specified the three mentioned criteria as being essential for a roll of the dice to be deemed legal.

In the absence of either statute, regulation or court case, the issue is wide open for interpretation, which should provide very fertile ground indeed for a competent defense attorney to successfully defend against a claim of cheating.
"What, me worry?"

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