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AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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October 6th, 2011 at 4:48:04 AM permalink
I'd like to make several points:

1. If there is a surveillance tape, it would not show "throwing the dice" which is legal, it would allegedly show "sliding the dice" which is not legal.

2. MrV, the information about what is a legal "throw" and what is an illegal "slide" came from the gaming regulators in Michigan and Nevada. But exactly which comments are you saying are either not true or are just an opinion and are not correct information from the regulators?

3. And when craps players have mastered some skill in handling dice, and even if they make "legal throws" that fly in the air, bounce on the table surface, and hit the back wall. a casino is under no obligation to let that player continue to throw the dice or even play on the property.

4. There really is no such thing as legal "dice control." There is legal "dice influencing," because no one can really "control" dice. It's a false description. The only way to come close to control dice is by sliding the dice, and even sliding does not offer 100% control. However, the NGC says dice sliding is not permitted period, so you shouldn't even try it.

5. And the lingering question is why weren't the "sliders" in the Wynn case warned the first time, stopped the second time, and "no rolled" every time??? Did the dealers/crew not see the slide, not know the rules, or for some other reason not call a "no roll" ??
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:00:43 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

But those [card counting] rules aren't written anywhere, Dan.


Yes they are. And the casinos won't show you their operational manuals and card-counting tracking sheets to you, and they don't have to do so to you for them to be in force.
This is a little like "I don't have to pay for my movie tickets at the Cinemaplex of the ticket booth clerk doesn't show me the fire protection escape plans in case there's a fire here here in this movie theater - so my tickets are free, and I can do what I want! Aha! SHOW ME WHERE IT IS WRITTEN THAT I CAN'T DO WHAT I WANT HERE if you can't produce THE DOCUMENTS! aha...."

Quote: EvenBob the instigator

You have yet to produce any such rules.


Don't have to. The floor has the rules down pat. They're always very friendly. But try some crap at a real casino against security and the pit boss and see what happens.
In fact - try it at the Wynn. :) Was just there tonight - had NO problem. They DO have a dime crap table, of all things - thank God....

Quote: EvenBob the troll

There's no dealer handbook that lists card counting as being against any rule.


Yes there is, but it is not a dealer's textbook. Security and legal operational rules aren't generally written in dealer's handbooks - indeed, most dealers graduate from dealer's school into real jobs with no carry-along textbooks. "Stand on 17 but hit Soft-17, and learn Pai Gow later- and call the floor if there's a problem" is the basic requirement to graduate from dealer's school. That is, if the dealer doesn't answer you in Korean, Mandarin, Cantonese, or Lao above the basic rules of the game and in very basic conversational Engrish/English. The legal and security end of the games are for floormen, shift managers, casino managers, security operations, and Surveillance crews, and they will let you what the deal is - in no uncertain terms case you happen to not know.
Furthermore, no floorman has to produce any written documents or written rules to a player at a table, especially if he is being backed off or arrested for some shit. Newbies or new players are never a problem - shot takers and casino cheats are. This whole "I demand that you show ME where it is written in the Constitution of the United States or The Magna Carta that I cannot cheat/card count/piss on the floor at a casino as I see fit, etc." is sometimes met with a security guard saying to a player, "Sir!...PLEASE back away from the table before we taser the shit out of you while we call the cops," etc.
The pit boss says "if you don't know the rules, then we'll teach you, or else who are you trying to kid," or, "the house rules are written on my lips if you don't know the rules. Don't slide the dice/reach into the dealer's rack to pluck out black chips/grab the cocktail waitress' boobs/mark the 10-value cards with a Sharpie/etc.!" Basically, both experienced and inexperienced gamblers catch on just fine to how things work if they don't have an attitude problem.

So, there are indeed procedure manuals for casino operations that handle card counting, written surveillance reports (with an example above), commercially available industry operations manuals from casino executives Steve Forte in an interesting example publisher on this. But a gambler cannot demand to review the executive books at a Blackjack table, much in the same way that you cannot walk into a Four-Star restaurant and say, "I demand that I inspect your kitchen to see that you simmer the mushrooms at 140 degrees farenheit or higher, and have your dairy products at 33^ to 37^ Farenheit - to insure that my food safety personal requirements are met - and also show the me health department's textbooks my immediate personal review! - if I am to eat here!" Basic response: go eat at Joe's, or go play at Joker's Wild, and see what they say....

Quote: EvenBob that we all know by now

Just
like excessive flatulence isn't in the book, but its not tolerated
either.


This is not true, Bob.
We have Tony "The Farts" Vitagliano come in from Newark, New Jersey about once a month or so, throws dice, and we handle him with an aerosol spray Amway product. So our crap table table doesn't smell like crap. Love his action, and a good guy, too.

Quote: EvenBoob

Its just assumed in the industry that counters will
be dealt with, but no pit in its right mind will ever tell you that
to your face.


If you need to be told something by a floorman, you're basically a moron...

Quote: EvenBob

They will never whip out the rulebook and point
to number 6.1: "Card counting is against the rules in this
casino." Indeed, if you're backed off of 'trespassed', they
will never EVER tell you why they're doing it. Why is that,
Dan, if its in the rulebook.


If you don't know why you're getting trespassed or arrested out of a casino, you're basically a clueless moron who should listen to your Legal Aid lawyer.
That simple.
By by the Rules and You Are Fine. :)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:08:34 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If you don't know why you're getting trespassed or arrested out of a casino, you're basically a clueless moron



Shhh, its a secret. Its in the secret rulebook, printed in
secret, read in secret, and never seen by the public.
Shhh, we don't have to tell you anything, or show you
the secret rule. We're the Dark Side, we're operating
on our own super secret rules, if we kick you out, we
just assume you know why.

Get real, Dan..
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:19:55 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

think of dice sliding as putting your finger on top of a coin and pushing the coin to the end of a table. the coin does not bounce. the coin does not lift off the table surface. the coin will slide to the table end.


Wynn says this went on for a month. They deserve to lose the $700,000. More even than Icahn's 20 percent rebates.
Are these so-called "geniuses" really casino operators or what?
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:20:18 AM permalink
Bob, You get real.
We all just having fun with you.
And this is not secret stuff at all, - and it's all on the Internet.
In fact, all this information is published right here by the companion site to this here forum, by Mike Shackleford "The Wizard" himself.
Take a look at it, - please!
see: Help site for people who wish to learn some serious stuff about gaming if you would read at least some of it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:25:11 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Wynn says this went on for a month. They deserve to lose the $700,000. More even than Icahn's 20 percent rebates.
Are these so-called "geniuses" really casino operators or what?



Steve Wynn is supposedly brilliant casino operator with his incredible track record.
Best dealers and floormen in the business.
A month of dice-sliding tolerance for that kind of money I simply do not understand.
Truly a gaming industry mystery.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:24:43 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Shhh, its a secret. Its in the secret rulebook, printed in
secret, read in secret, and never seen by the public.
Shhh, we don't have to tell you anything, or show you
the secret rule. We're the Dark Side, we're operating
on our own super secret rules, if we kick you out, we
just assume you know why.



No - if you're kicked out of a casino, or are sued by a casino, you pretty much f*(^ing know why:
"I was drunk last night," or "I was taking a shot sliding dice and got caught bad." - The example here on this forum discussion.
Casinos are public business places with people all over the place and surveillance crews recording some reality TV, with The Las Vegas Review Journal reporting everything, with John L. Smith writing opinions.
Bob, I think you're talking about the secret society of the Masons, or Harry Potter and the inner sanctum or scrotum of the Warthogs or something like that. There's no secrets in gaming - or on a crap table, or as we can see in The Las Vegas Review Journal or on an Internet forum.
Everything's so public and open it's ridiculous.
If there's a problem, the floorman/security guard/pit boss tells you in plain English, and you and him take action, sometimes upset.
No mystery here as to why.
The lawsuits are public and in the newpapers.
The discussions are on the Internet right here, read and commented on by countless people and for the world to see.
The technical game rules and their mathematical details for all games are right' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://wizardofvegas.com/quote/98031/]right here
If it weren't for all this public access and information you get from your cable company and us, you'd be cut off from all this gambling world action - and the world at large - and living in a single wide trailer in the woods, shooting squirrels with a .22 rimfire for lunch, and using a coat-hanger on you TV set to get Foxworthy reruns.
Along with a smart-ass commentator and Las Vegas Casino dealer and casino game designer himself - filling you in on all the good poop.
How lucky you are to have all this, and to be aware of all this - direct to your single-wide trailer in the woods.
Secrets on this case, or in table games operations?
Not at all!
You're just pissed you're not the judge in this case. I'm not...

But things don't always make sense, especially in the gaming business - like in this case that we're judging The Wynn Casino as freaking trailer park judges on the Internet - but it doesn't mean conspiracy or secrets. It means it's a tough case to judge still knowing all the details and arguments we do have, that's all.
We'll see it play out. It'll be reported here.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MrRalph
MrRalph
Joined: Jun 8, 2011
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:42:25 AM permalink
Maybe the SicBo dealer can come shake dice at the craps table. Wouldn't that be fun. I would like to see how many people can actually accomplish a dead cat bounce. I am sure the number would be extremely minute. This question has been beaten to death before and the bottom line is the casinos are pissing more people off than they are saving money by pissing and moaning about dice setters and hitting the backwall. Once those dice are in the air and they bounce at least once, for 99.9% of the people out there the throw will be random, just as random as chucking them down the table. Dice setters do not slow the game down. Late bettors and people that do not know how to bet or what their bets are suppose to pay slow the game down. When you do get someone that just flings them down the table and the dice fly of the table or land in the chip rack and you have find the dice, check the dice and re-roll them, how much does that slow the game down? You cannot compare dice sliding and dice setting with a controlled throw to each other, one is illegal, the other is not. Since when is possesing a skill or being proficient at something a criminal offense. If you play perfect basic strategy you are skilled at Black Jack. if you can set and control the dice somewhat and make the right bets you are skilled at craps what the hell is the difference. You are both still losers in the long run because they are both negative expectation games. Only as a proficient counter does Black become a positive game. There are plenty of games where the game is slowed down by players but it seems dice setters get the most heat and probably have the least chance of being successful. Just because you have some success at setting and throwing the dice(if by chance you even do) it is still a game of chance not a game of skill. If these guys slid the dice they should have been caught right then and there. If Steve Wynn wants to get pissed at somebody he should start with his group that let it happen. If they did do this and they can prove it, then I then I hope they do prevail because these people that go into the casino and try to cheat just make it more unpleasant for the rest of us who just want to go in and play a fair game without getting hassled
MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 8:19:53 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

2. MrV, the information about what is a legal "throw" and what is an illegal "slide" came from the gaming regulators in Michigan and Nevada. But exactly which comments are you saying are either not true or are just an opinion and are not correct information from the regulators?



For example, it seems the three criteria of a legal roll are opinion ... "as long as the dice fly in the air, bounce on the table, and hit the back wall."

My question: where is that written?

Where in the statutes or regulations is that stated as being the law?

If it is not spelled out as such, then it seems to be opinion, or his interpretation.

Given the vague, ambiguous definition of "cheating" and what conduct constitutes cheating, a sharp defense lawyer can and should construct a successful defense of someone accused of dice sliding by arguing the law is too vague, and enforced too inconsistently.

Then again, it happened in Nevada, where the casinos run things, so the playing field isn't really level.

Regardless, with their funds / winnings, the defendants should be able to retain competent legal counsel, and should be able to mount a first class defense: should be interesting.
"What, me worry?"
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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October 6th, 2011 at 9:50:59 AM permalink
That simple.
By by the Rules and You Are Fine. :)
Dan Lubin

Unless you are a BJ counter. No rule against it. Dan will just back you off for using your brain. Of course , It is fair. Dan will let losers play after all. LOL

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