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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 10:09:29 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

For example, it seems the three criteria of a legal roll are opinion ... "as long as the dice fly in the air, bounce on the table, and hit the back wall."

My question: where is that written?


I love it: "WHERE IS IT WRITTEN that I cannot do whatever I want, say whatever I want, and run the games as I see fit - as some clown player who walks off the street into a casino to run it like he was the boss? Show me the tablets that Moses walked down off the mountain with - or else I am right!!!"
It's written on the floorman's lips:
1. "The dice must hit the back wall!"
2. "You may not slide the dice!" (dice fly in the air and bounce on the table)
Read 'em.....

Quote: MrV

Where in the statutes or regulations is that stated as being the law?


With the gaming jurisdictions and with the casino compliance officer.
If a player wants to see them, - he can ask the floorman, and the floorman will tell them the house rules.

Quote: MrV

If it is not spelled out as such, then it seems to be opinion, or his interpretation.


No, it is written in internal procedure manuals, documentation and in pit briefings. Customers who walk in off the street cannot demand to see them anymore than they can demand to see fire code compliance records from a movie house ticket clerk while pretending to be a Fire Marhsall - whenever buying a ticket to see Avatar.
Again: Where is it written!! I DEMAND to see WHERE it is written THAT....! [snap, snap]

Quote: MrV

Given the vague, ambiguous definition of "cheating" and what conduct constitutes cheating, a sharp defense lawyer can and should construct a successful defense of someone accused of dice sliding by arguing the law is too vague, and enforced too inconsistently.


Casino Cheating guidelines are thoroughly documented, and also were clearly pointed out: Hole Carding and Dice sliding.: Illegal. Card-counting: Completely Legal, but about as acceptable to the house as eating pork in a Mosque in front of the Iman during Ramadan in that house also. Tell them about the counstitution and the bill of rights with a pork rib in your mouth: that's however LEGAL, and grounds for being backed off, which is also legal.
And as for committing a black and white gaming law crime, a Sharp defense lawyer is no match to a Sharp Prosecutor when surveillance tapes are presented as exhibit A.

Quote: MrV

Then again, it happened in Nevada, where the casinos run things, so the playing field isn't really level.


Sure it is. It's just that people walking in off the street or blabbing on the Internet don't set the casino house rules, and so feel it isn't a level playing field because they can't walk into the casino pit, and set the games as THEY see fit to win the money. An absolute outrage, I tell you.

Quote: MrV

Regardless, with their funds / winnings, the defendants should be able to retain competent legal counsel, and should be able to mount a first class defense: should be interesting.


About $700,000 in legal fees, as Mr. Wynn is trying to cost them.
Should be interesting indeed.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 10:22:39 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

That simple.
Play by the Rules and You Are Fine. :)
Dan Lubin


Exactly.
And Not a difficult concept to grasp at all.
Play by the rules and you are fine.
That is a true quote of mine.
Live it, breathe it, - and avoid handcuffs and legal fees all at the same time!

Quote: busspaff

Unless you are a BJ counter. No rule against it. Dan will just back you off for using your brain. Of course , It is fair. Dan will let losers play after all. LOL


No, I would back off players as soon as a house rule is broken without waiting for a win or lose result. Said that many times.
Yes, there are house rules against it, and you should get backed off as soon as you are caught doing some against the rules without delay - REGARDLESS of win OR lose.
My position.
And if a moron like that Dan guy backs you off, then you were clearly not using your brain.
Some Casino floormen give a counter or other "considered nefarious" players a chance to hang themselves via losses first, but that's them. And if they win - then sue! Don't like that? - Then Complain about it here like it matters! :)
Or follow the house rules in the first place, for that matter.

Don't put words in my mouth; I am not at a loss for them.
I've always said that card counting was legal but against the house rules, - which is enough to get backed off a game or removed from a property.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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October 6th, 2011 at 11:04:35 AM permalink
Don't put words in my mouth; I am not at a loss for them.
I've always said that card counting was legal but against the house rules, - which is enough to get backed off a game or removed from a property.

And of course when I sit down to play BJ at your table and ask to see the rules, you will hand me something that says I can not count!
Is that correct Dan? Don't want to put words in your mouth. So a simple YES or NO will do. Thank you.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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October 6th, 2011 at 11:04:44 AM permalink
Quote: NRS 465


NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:

7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.

NRS 465.083 Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.

NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.

1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.

2. A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he or she personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.



There is NO regulation within the gambling statutes of Nevada that defines what is an illegal versus a legal throw. Given the lengthy arguments on the internets about whether dice control is possible via a throw in the air that hits the back wall, a casino would have a very difficult time proving that a "controlled" throw that hits the back wall is illegal. Any patron dispute in this regard would favor the side of the patron. If there was science that proved that a controlled throw could influence the dice, you would bet that ALL casinos would react by disallowing dice setting. There isn't. Some casinos sweat it anyway and (like Wheeling) force you to simply pick up and throw the dice with no setting allowed.

Casino operators, on the other hand, have regulations on their side when it comes to sliding, as you are altering the chance of the game.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:49:59 PM permalink
That was much as I expected... there seems to be a continual confusion between "illegal" (against the law) and "wrong" (against the rules of the game... either as written or intended by the pit boss's fiat). Sometimes wrong can be illegal, but it's not always the case.

I actually suspect if I requested a cinema's fire regulations via the proper channels I would either be given them, or given evidence of their existence. Maybe I wouldn't get after purchasing my ticket to Avatar.... but I suspect I could get them. Maybe I'll try some time this week.

It's a specious argument anyways, when playing a -game- there should be rules, and those rules should be available to all sides.

Those rules can simply be a description of a fair throw in sentence of two. Any throw that doesn't meet that definition is a no-roll... you don't need to add thousands of pages about grabbing waitresses boobs or stealing chips from the tray... simply stating "all bets must be placed before the dice are thrown" would stop past posting, for example, while anything that is illegal (harassment or theft) is already de facto OUT on the casino floor. If players are boorish enough not to realize that, well... I can hardly complain if security removes them.

Rules that are subject to a pit boss's fiat are possible, but simply saying "go ask him, he'll tell you" and it can depend on what the pit boss feels like that day... that's not a fair game that is protected for both sides. I respect that Dan says he tries to keep all his games (either when playing or dealing) along that straight line.

Hmmm, I wonder why I felt less inclined to gamble on my recent trip to Vegas? (I did feel more inclined to eat good food and watch lots of sports, making sports bets... I figured I understood most of the rules of the NFL....).
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
reno
reno
Joined: Jan 20, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:55:14 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Practice bank robbery enough, it also becomes natural for the practitioner.



Quote: reno

So you'd back off all card-counters. Even counters who suck at counting cards?



Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. That is the job of the table games' pit crew and surveillance, and card counters get backed off if caught. Go play Roulette.



Well, the difference is that banks can't make any profit from inexperienced bank robbers training and practicing. Casinos, on the other hand, do make money off of beginner card counters who suck at card counting. In a way, Dan's casino's policy of evicting all card-counters, regardless of their competence, actually demonstrates some integrity on the casino's part. Maybe money isn't always the casino's bottom line! They appreciate law and order. Like I said earlier in the thread, if I owned a casino I would invite all novice card-counters to practice their craft at my tables. And I wouldn't evict them until they got good.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:28:18 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No - if you're kicked out of a casino.. you pretty much f*(^ing know why:
.



But Dan, but Dan, if its against the rules to count,
if its in the rulebook as you claim, why doesn't the
casino TELL you that? I've been kicked out of a
casino for counting, Dan, as I've reported here.
They absolutely refused to tell me why, they said
it was none of my business. Why don't they tell
you its against the rules to count, why don't they
show you the rule? They don't, Dan, because its
not official, its a secret casino rule. Everybody
knows about it, but shhhh, we can't talk about
it to the public. It bothers them no end that the
Supreme Court has said card counting is completely a
legal activity in a casino. They'll never get over it.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
MrV
MrV
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October 6th, 2011 at 5:55:07 PM permalink
Violating the casino's rules and procedures does not automatically justify criminal prosecution: the conduct must be criminal, per statute.

For example, if the house rule states the dice must hit the back wall, I can assure you that people who short toss will not go to jail because of this lapse.

House rules determine whether they let you play, or bar you.

State law determines whether you can be arrested and prosecuted.
"What, me worry?"
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:06:41 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Violating the casino's rules and procedures does not automatically justify criminal prosecution: the conduct must be criminal, per statute.

For example, if the house rule states the dice must hit the back wall, I can assure you that people who short toss will not go to jail because of this lapse.

House rules determine whether they let you play, or bar you.

State law determines whether you can be arrested and prosecuted.



I think everyone agrees with you. I agree with you. In fact sliding shouldn't get you arrested either and so far the "sliders" in the Wynn case haven't been charged with a crime.

It's just that "sliding" is not a legal way to throw the dice, hence the civil charges.

But again, how can a civil case against the sliders hold up if the craps crew didn't "no roll" the slides? Ahhh... and that might be the real question. Exactly WHY didn't the crew "no roll" the slides?
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 6:08:31 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

For example, if the house rule states the dice must hit the back wall,



Now see, there's a house rule, and they will TELL
you its a house rule. The same for the ball making
3 rev's on the roulette wheel, or its not counted as
a spin. Or leaning on the roulette glass, or touching
the wheel, those are rules and you'll be told that. But
they will never tell you card counting is against the
rules, they will just back you off or ban you.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal

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