Can You Be Banned for Dice Control? Have Casinos Done This?

Quote: AlanMendelson

I copied this quote, only to preserve the comments made:

1. Ahigh is impressed by the post of someone else.
2. Ahigh agrees that factual statements were made including the statement "Something is wrong with you."
3. Ahigh is troubled that Zcore also signs his posts. Unusual.

I copied this post and I'm putting my name in here..

Ahigh

just in case you could not figure out who posted it.

Quote: Ahigh

Alan's posts are vague. If his posts are on any money at all, it's the money generated from advertising revenue generated from all the controversy related to his vague, lame, and unskillfully constructed attempts at making a point.



He's a journalist. And his the first line of his post is a statement with a question mark at the end. I dated a journalism major at Texas A&M. Part of her studies (for school) involved proofreading the newspaper and correcting all of the mistakes made in the articles. She found mistakes (in "The Battalion") that I would never have found. It left me scratching my head that she was so talented at finding mistakes that most would never even see.

Alan's writings, however, don't really even seem to come from someone with any regard for typographical errors, much less journalistic integrity.

It leaves me scratching my head in a different way.

no, ahigh, i don't know who he is or who you are but after working in the industry for almost 40 years his post was right on the money.

Quote: ontariodealer

his post was right on the money.

Including "Everybody knows how to play the game?"

Maybe you could be more specific, because I see a few problems, just here and there, with what Alan says.

The expression "right on the money" all alone by itself reveals some character dialect of yours that also leads me to believe your assessment that he knows what he is talking about is rather dubious.

Additionally, your screen name hints that you might not be as familiar with Las Vegas law as perhaps another location.

Quote: Ahigh

Including "Everybody knows how to play the game?"

Maybe you could be more specific, because I see a few problems, just here and there, with what Alan says.

The expression "right on the money" all alone by itself reveals some character dialect of yours that also leads me to believe your assessment that he knows what he is talking about is rather dubious.

Additionally, your screen name hints that you might not be as familiar with Las Vegas law as perhaps another location.

I don't know if you can gain an advantage by NOT hitting the back wall (I'm skeptical) I Rarely play craps, I have practiced some DI and I think its bunk. Last time I played craps was with Ahigh( he was nice, very Helpful and even humble) I shot a few times, many of my shots did NOT hit the back wall by FAR, 2 feet at least, not one time did anyone say a word. If you can gain a decent advantage by not hitting the back wall, then there is some serious money to be made. You only need a few with big bets per casino and move on.

Craps is not the only dice game . Dice also used in other games which stand on it's own , for example , backgammon . Bones by design signify randomness in a broader term "dice control" means a predictable outcome . If you can throw a desired number you become a world champion of any game where the dice is involved . Now back to craps . Yes , you can reduce number of 7s , but it has nothing to do with dice control . When dice rolled parallel to each other number of 7s reduced automatically . Add to it short roll and "Volla" you became a winning player , but in craps only , To declare yourself a dice controller , person who can shoot a desired number , is a long stretch .

Quote: Ahigh

I copied this post and I'm putting my name in here..

Ahigh

just in case you could not figure out who posted it.

LOL!

Ahigh's posts have been cracking me up as of late. :)

Quote: Dicenor33

Craps is not the only dice game . Dice also used in other games which stand on it's own , for example , backgammon . Bones by design signify randomness in a broader term "dice control" means a predictable outcome . If you can throw a desired number you become a world champion of any game where the dice is involved . Now back to craps . Yes , you can reduce number of 7s , but it has nothing to do with dice control . When dice rolled parallel to each other number of 7s reduced automatically . Add to it short roll and "Volla" you became a winning player , but in craps only , To declare yourself a dice controller , person who can shoot a desired number , is a long stretch .

Can you show me some evidence of this ?

I agree with much of this:

Quote: Dicenor33

"dice control" means a predictable outcome.

I think that is the most important point made here: the definition of dice control If you are going to say you can control the dice, it means you can predict the outcome. Some use "dice control" to mean that will minimize the appearance of the 7 or maximize the appearance of the 7. I wouldn't consider that to be dice control. I would say that is more "dice influencing."

Quote: Dicenor33

If you can throw a desired number you become a world champion of any game where the dice is involved.

True enough. How can you argue with that?

Quote: Dicenor33

Now back to craps . Yes , you can reduce number of 7s , but it has nothing to do with dice control . When dice rolled parallel to each other number of 7s reduced automatically.

Again this is the basics of "dice influencing." In fact, I only know of the GTC folks and Frank Scoblete who say anything about "dice control." Oh, maybe our friend Ahigh also uses the term. But most people use the term "dice influencing" because they separate the ability to promote or avoid certain numbers from the certainty of rolling prescribed numbers.

Quote: Dicenor33

Add to it short roll and "Volla" you became a winning player , but in craps only

Again, this is very true. Short rolls eliminate the variable created by hitting not only the pyramids but also just hitting a wall. Dice Influencers also try to shoot at empty tables so they can avoid the dice hitting chips. Any obstacle becomes a handicap for a dice influencer because any obstacle adds another variable. In fact, I wonder how well our friend Ahigh would do if there were chips and other players at the side of the table where he throws the dice for his various videos. In fact, I suggested a few times during his Internet TV show that he place some chips on the table to simulate other players there but he never did. In fact the various demonstration videos you see from GTC all show shooters throwing the dice to an empty side of the table.

Quote: Dicenor33

To declare yourself a dice controller , person who can shoot a desired number , is a long stretch .

And this is the ultimate test. Can you shoot a particular result "on demand"? If you can't you're not controlling anything. Which brings us back to the orginal question. I don't know of anyone who has been banned for "dice control." I've been thrown off tables for winning-- but you couldn't prove I was "controlling" the dice, because in fact, I have no control.

Quote: AxelWolf

Can you show me some evidence of this ?

It's an interesting question .i follow very closely on a subject.i wish I had casinos' stats . Definitely , some people might keep dice parallel . But their arm must be steady plus the house should cooperate . People , who not accostomed with labor ,usually fail . House greatly influence the outcome , to generalize , some players can show better results , but they are on a short leash , it' not enough to break the vault ,

nI saw my first DC tonight. Miplet rolled a seven coming out, then missed a little and set a point of 4. Then he got into the swing of it and threw 4 5's in a row. We hesitated on betting it, because the variance was huge, but the 3 big bettors on the table got on it and he threw a 5th one. Then he 7'd out.

(i'm just teasing miplet, but the sequence is true. And we did have a DC, and i was genuinely impressed. he was lining up the 5's side by side, with the 4s facing the wall, got a good loft, no spin, and hit them dead into the corner. the guys who knew him were betting the field and the stupid 30:1 on the boxcars and aces, and he made himself and both of them a LOT of money on his 2 passes. (That I saw).

I, myself, in my second ever craps, tried to pass the dice and the stickman gave me a whole lot of grief. I hit a point of 10, threw a 3, then 7'd out. gah. THEN, after he'd taken my money, he agreed I sucked.

I think what is uncomfortable to me about craps is the shooting. I don't like other people losing money on my cruddy rolls. If i bet on a shooter, that's on me. But it cost those people several hundred dollars for me to throw once.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I think what is uncomfortable to me about craps is the shooting. I don't like other people losing money on my cruddy rolls. If i bet on a shooter, that's on me. But it cost those people several hundred dollars for me to throw once.

I hope you get over it. If anybody can roll better than random, *anybody*, I am convinced it would not be evident by results in the short run. Apparent success would just be positive variance; apparent failure would just be negative variance. This for *anybody* over the period not of just one session but at least a whole week of rolling 2 sessions a day, if not a month!

Up here in Ontario Canada Casino's they don't Care as long as you don't cover the dice for the Camera sake.
i use the 7 pattern where shows 7 total on every side. But doesn't help me any because I 7 out a lot after my point.

They also keep you wanting to hit the back wall as much as you can when throwing them.

when I play Craps, I just Pass and wait for those skilled Dice setters and shooters. But they too 7 out. hard game to beat.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I, myself, in my second ever craps, tried to pass the dice and the stickman gave me a whole lot of grief. I hit a point of 10, threw a 3, then 7'd out. gah. THEN, after he'd taken my money, he agreed I sucked.

I think what is uncomfortable to me about craps is the shooting. I don't like other people losing money on my cruddy rolls. If i bet on a shooter, that's on me. But it cost those people several hundred dollars for me to throw once.

I love the first paragraph, that's hilarious. You don't suck, though, just negative Variance on that hand.

I echo your sentiments on the second paragraph, because I bet cheap, that's why I typically try to shoot alone or with other cheap bettors. I can't stand to see anyone lose more than $50 on one of my hands! Actually, since you read my story, me and David have one similarity, (the only one, I hope) we both have a greater likelihood of throwing the dice off of the table when we are nervous! I always get nervous when any individual person has $50, or more, out there...even though it isn't my fault!

The problem is, I'd never play Craps if I didn't get to shoot, people watching is 60% of the fun, 30% of the fun is getting to shoot, and everything else culminates in the other 20%. Yes, I know what I did there, because Craps is 110% fun!!!

The secret of beating craps is the way you shoot . Next time you have to throw stand on a side of a dealer , turn your back toward the wall you have to hit and throw the dice sort of backward . The idea is to let both dice roll after they hit the pyramids . I can not say that you will win , but at least you won't 7 out right away .

Quote: Dicenor33

Next time you have to throw stand on a side of a dealer , turn your back toward the wall you have to hit and throw the dice sort of backward . The idea is to let both dice roll after they hit the pyramids . I can not say that you will win , but at least you won't 7 out right away .

Really is this the new form for a new type of dice throwing technique? How many rolls will I get before I 7 out using this one? LOL

Quote: Dicenor33

let both dice roll after they hit the pyramids ... you won't 7 out right away .

Correct. Because the dice have to roll to a stop, thus it takes that much longer to 7-out.

Quote: odiousgambit

Correct. Because the dice have to roll to a stop, thus it takes that much longer to 7-out.

Or you can throw them up against the ceiling and then have them hit the back and you will add a few more seconds until you perhaps roll a "7". However I will not take credit for this new way of not losing as fast. I would like to give ALL the Credit to Ahigh because after all, without him opening our minds to new ways this idea would have never happened. I think I am going to try this today at Valley Forge and if they stop me, I will create a new term and call it being "Ahighed".

Now lets think of all the ways we can use "Ahighed" in a sentence.....

Quote: odiousgambit

Correct. Because the dice have to roll to a stop, thus it takes that much longer to 7-out.

LOL!

You just do better than average player . True shot is too complicated .

Quote: Dicenor33

You just do better than average player . True shot is too complicated .

Oh boy.

Quote: beachbumbabs

...Then he got into the swing of it and threw 4 5's in a row. We hesitated on betting it, because the variance was huge, but the 3 big bettors on the table got on it and he threw a 5th one...

.. the guys who knew him were betting the field and the stupid 30:1 on the boxcars and aces, and he made himself and both of them a LOT of money on his 2 passes...

How do you make a lot of money betting the Field when a guy hits 5 fives in a row?

Quote: MathExtremist

Here's the problem with the holding in Skipper. First, the Court says (quoting Sheriff v. Martin):
"The attributes of the game — its established physical characteristics and basic rules — determine the probabilities of the game's various possible outcomes. Changing those attributes to affect those probabilities is a criminal act."

but then elsewhere in Martin, the Court requires deceit in order to find cheating:
"Thus, if a player or dealer deceitfully alters the identifying characteristics or attributes of a game with the intent to deprive another of money or property by affecting the otherwise established probabilities of the game's various outcomes, he or she is guilty of cheating within the meaning of NRS 465.015 and NRS 465.083."

and from later in the Skipper opinion:
"a dice slider uses a methodology of play that is based upon a purposefully orchestrated combination of factors designed to change the nature of play through affirmative acts of cheating and deception. For example, as noted above, Skipper utilized an accomplice to obscure the dealer's vision of the table while Skipper purposely engaged in sliding the dice."
...
"a surreptitious manipulation of the dice contrary to the rules of the game, in order to alter its outcome, constitutes an act of cheating"

So, with the exception of the initial quote from Martin, the Skipper holding requires "affirmative acts of cheating and deception", which is somewhat self-referential, but I think the point is that deceitfully sliding the dice is cheating. That begs the question:

Is overtly sliding the dice cheating, as hinted at by the first quote from Martin?

If so, and given that:
a) both sliding and other forms of controlled throwing are just different methods to accomplish the same goal, and the Court makes no distinction between techniques for altering dice probabilities,
b) if influencing the dice (changing the probabilities) is cheating, then attempting to influence the dice is attempted cheating, and
c) both cheating and attempted cheating are Category B felonies (see NRS 465.088(2)),
then we can conclude that everyone who attempts a controlled throw at a Nevada craps game is a criminal.

Because that's such an obviously ridiculous outcome, the only sensible conclusion is that throwing the dice in any fashion is legal as long as the casino has the opportunity to nullify the roll if they don't like it. What was illegal in Skipper was the deceit -- the intentional concealment of the throw -- and not just the act of sliding itself.

That's my analysis, anyway. I'd be happy to hear contrary opinions or alternate theories. I asked the Clark County DA after the Wynn incident and never got a response.

My impression of the Nevada statutes in question regarding cheating is that it is a specific intent crime . This means that in order to be guilty you have to be intending to cheat, not just negligently or even recklessly play the game incorrectly. If someone doesn't know a dice manipulation technique is cheating and illegal, they can't violate the law. The intentional short throw itself may be an illegal act, but it doesn't become an actual crime until combined with a guilty mind.

If someone throws the dice and the dice don't tumble and strike the back wall, that physical act alone, should not establish probable cause to support a criminal arrest or prosecution. That is because there are at least 1000 reasons why dice may not tumble and strike the back wall, and intentional cheating is only one of them.

I think the deception is important in Skipper because that proves the mental status of the defendant at having an intent to coming the offense. When someone is using deception to hide an improper throw, I think that the deception (proving mental state) plus the improper throw (physical act) are enough to establish probable cause for the offense.

If someone intends on cheating and then makes an illegal roll, I don't think that the casino catching them or having the opportunity to cancel the roll would be a legal defense. Just like a thief that tries to steal in plain site of the owner is still a thief.

All that being said, someone who uses dice control techniques to try to influence the game is likely not breaking any laws as long as the dice tumble and strike the back wall. A dice controller who has a throw unintentionally not tumble or hit the back wall is also not breaking the law. Any craps player who throws the dice trying for a short roll who knows that this is against the rules would be potentially guilty of violating the law.

Quote: Avenger803

The intentional short throw itself may be an illegal act, but it doesn't become an actual crime until combined with a guilty mind.

I highly doubt anyone would ever be prosecuted for a short roll, since short rolls happen every day, plus there is an opportunity for the casino to stop the short roller and rule the short rolls as "no roll."

the same is true with a slide. The casino has an opportunity to stop a slider. As I told the LVRJ when they interviewed me about the Wynn case, I saw a slide used at Caesars and the crew let it "pass" because the don't shooter had lost so much money. I wasn't happy about the decision but I let it pass also.

In cases involving a slide there have to be other circumstances such as repeated use, a conspiracy with the dealers or a distration so the dealers can't see.

If I went to a table and slid the dice numerous times (as I can) in full view and the crew never stopped me, I would have one heck of a great defense. If done in full view without objection how could it be a crime?

" If done in full view without objection how could it be a crime? "

The perfect Phil Ivey defense. Would it work if a magican switched cards at BJ ?

I didn't say anything about dice being switched.

This forum is famous for posters offering preposterous argumentative examples. I would suggest they are like being "Ahighed"

Quote: Avenger803

My impression of the Nevada statutes in question regarding cheating is that it is a specific intent crime . This means that in order to be guilty you have to be intending to cheat, not just negligently or even recklessly play the game incorrectly.

But that's the problem: many people have the intent to control the dice, but only a few make that attempt with deceit (like Skipper did, and he actually succeeded). Attempting to do something inherently requires intent, and if overt attempts to control the dice are equivalent to deceitful attempts to control the dice, then both are attempted cheating. And in Nevada, attempted cheating and actually cheating carry the same penalty: $10,000 fine or 1 year in jail.

It just doesn't make sense that everyone who tries to control the dice is a felon. I see craps players all the time who use gentle on-axis throws and who are attempting to get the dice to bounce off the flat bottom area and roll over only once or twice. I fully understand the mathematics of on-axis dice rolling, and I could readily quantify for a court how a given level of skill translates into altered dice percentages. It rarely happens that such a shooter succeeds in getting the dice to behave -- because it's a hard skill to master -- but I have a hard time believing that simply making the attempt is a felony.

Attempting to influence or even control the dice is not against the rules of the NGC as long as:

1. The dice are thrown in the air
2. The dice bounce on the table surface at least once
3. The dice hit the back wall

Slid dice are not thrown in the air, do not bounce on the table surface but might hit the back wall... or might not. But that's at least two out of three requirements that a "dice slide" do not meet according to the NGC. Ask them.

With all due respect, Alan, it sounds like the person you spoke to was talking out of his ass.

Seriously.

Who cares what his opinion is?

Try using that in court: the judge will throw you out of the courtroom.

No, there is either a written statute, regulation, or a court case precedent which can be cited; otherwise "It don't mean nothin'."

Cowboy and all. I don't speak the language so bear with me.

The other three guys our end were two seven stars and one diamond. One seven star was the dc. He was in midpass when we walked up. The other two came in rught behind us. Dc threw two twelves and one two then made his point of eight. His next point was six and he threw one more twelve then made his point with two eights in there . Then his point was eight and he made a six and a three and sevened out.
Diamond got the dice, hesevened, set a point of five, rolled a couple times and sevened out. Seven stars got a point of five hit a twelve,hit a couple six/eights and sevened out. Miplet rolled and after his second five they stopped betting the field and the horn bets and placed the five, winning three more tetimes before miplet sevened out. I did my table crash. Then the dc set a six or eight, theywent back to their horn and field bet, and the dc managed another two twelves and a two before sevening out. I was betting pl w/2x odds and placing 6
/8...this whole thing rn me out of money at that point and we decided not to rebuy. They were throwing the horn bets past my face ll the time soi noticed them quite a lot. But in about 28 rolls there were 6 twelves and two twos and two threes the field bet won along with the big horn plays. That has to be wayout of whack.

Typing on tablet sucks. Too hard to fix typos without mouse or nav arrows. Sorry.

Who is a professional craps player ? It's a person who follows every rule and regulation of the game . If he sets the dice it completely concealed , if he throws the dice it looks like any throw . Today's DI's remind me a bank robber . Who calls police , right before he heist financial institution.

Few things to know before you deside to rob a bank
#1 it's illegal
#2 you can spend the rest of your life in jail
#3 don't write on your forehead " I am going to rob a bank".

Quote: MrV

With all due respect, Alan, it sounds like the person you spoke to was talking out of his ass.

MrV are you referring to the three conditions of a valid throw? The information comes from the Nevada Gaming Commission. Not only did I quote Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, Keith Copher, when he held the position, but I also interviewed him for a report when I was with KCAL-TV. Are you alleging that he, the Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, was "talking out of his ass"?

MrV and to everyone else who challenges what I report, please call the NGC for yourself. They'll talk to you. You don't have to show a press card. Here's the phone number: (702) 486-2020 and that's for the Enforcement Division. Ask them what constitutes a "legal" or "valid" or "acceptable" throw. And while you're at it, ask them:

1. Is dice setting legal? Expected answer: yes

2. Are attempts at dice influencing cheating? Expected answer: no

3. Are attempts at dice controlling cheating? Expected answer: no

4. Is it an expected part of the game for the shooter to throw the dice in such a way that he will try to get the number he wants? Answer: yes

5. Are short rolls legal/acceptable/valid? Expected answer: techically no, but do casinos sometimes accept them? Of couse they do.

6. Is dice sliding illegal? Yes.

If you receive any answers that are different from mine, please be sure you give us the name of the person at the NGC who gave you the information... because I will call them next.

I asked Chas at the Palazzo on Thursday about short rolls. He told someone to hit the back wall (a new player, not a DI). After a conversation about how she didn't want to roll them off the table, and so on, it led to a discussion about frequency of short rolls and so on.

Chas had this to offer after being very lightly prompted on the subject:

Me: about how often does an average shooter make a short roll?

Chas: All the time. All day long.

Me: But like a frequency? One out of a hundred? One out of ten?

Chas: Pauses, I would say about two out of twenty rolls are short on average.

Me: Do you always pay every short roll?

Chas: Always. You know it used to be different. We used to call short rolls "no roll." But not any more. Now I tell them all the way down and the players just say "fuck you" and we pay them anyway.

After that, there was more discussion from "Dallas" a dealer at the Palazzo. Dallas went on to say "I make $7.87 per hour and we don't make that much in tips."

That's the "word" from the street and pretty much maps to what I observe. Dealers claim, (paraphrased) "nobody tips us." Boxmen claim, (paraphrased) "I get no respect I tell ya. No respect at all."

All short rolls are paid, and players generally mouth off to pit bosses that have been working back there so long that they miss working for the mob and the "good ol' days" when 86'd mean eight feet out and six feet under.

So to Alan Mendelson, and the "sometimes short rolls get paid" comment. Find out what percentage of short rolls don't get paid. Ask around about that. If it were more than 1% I would be very surprised. I mean find one person who works a craps pit all day long who claims there are less than 99% of short rolls that get paid.

They generally all get paid, Alan. Maybe on your next trip in however many weeks when you are here, you can do a sample for a report. Maybe even visit a casino besides Caesar's Palace even!

I'm not the only person who sees craps action every single day; but anybody who knows the reality of what happens in Las Vegas craps tables knows that short rolls generally ALL get paid. In fact, I would be surprised if the percentage of short rolls that were call "no roll" only because they were short is less than 1/100th of 1%.

But do continue to share your views on the subject, please.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The information comes from the Nevada Gaming Commission. Not only did I quote Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, Keith Copher, when he held the position, but I also interviewed him for a report when I was with KCAL-TV. Are you alleging that he, the Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, was "talking out of his ass"?

MrV and to everyone else who challenges what I report, please call the NGC for yourself. They'll talk to you. You don't have to show a press card. Here's the phone number: (702) 486-2020 and that's for the Enforcement Division. Ask them what constitutes a "legal" or "valid" or "acceptable" throw.

Frankly Alan, I don't give a damn what his OPINION is on the issue; we all have opinions, and they are irrelevant.

I want to know what The Law says.

The Law, as I understand it, is not based on the personal opinion of an employee of a state agency; no, it is based on something codified and/or quantifiable, i.e. a statute, a published / printed regulation, or a published state court appellate opinion.

Period.

That's it.

So if there is no published statute, regulation or appellate opinion, there is nothing.

Oh sure, actual practice is explained anecdotally, but when discussing issues of legality / illegality, my analysis seems sound.

I'm not saying you lied, Alan; I am saying what you say he told you means as much as a fart in a hurricane.

Call him up and ask him to cite the statute, or regulation, or appellate report which forms the basis for his opinion; then watch him waffle.

Dealers claim, (paraphrased) "nobody tips us."

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but these are the type of dealers I can't stand. Dealers at the Venetian/Palazzo make more than the average American, so I don't know what this guy's yapping about. If you listen to them, they're practically living on food stamps. Idiots.

(OK, I'll go back to the tipping thread now...lol)

You can do anything you want at craps table as long as you are loosing like everybody else . Once you show a consistent win they don't care about rules and laws any more , to them you are a thief who steals their money ,therefore, you will be expelled .

I am curious how many other people have seen a roll that was only short (no other conditions) and called a no roll. IE: both dice passed the mid-way point of the table, but one or more die came up short. For each person who has seen a short roll called a no roll, how many times have you seen this? What percentage of all craps rolls that you have observed has this happened?

I have seen it multiple times. It is more common than seeing a die land on top of another die. I'm certain of that much. I'm not sure of any other event being less common than a no-roll being called for merely the fact of the roll coming up short .. EVEN after multiple warnings. It could be the least common event I have ever witnessed; it's that infrequent for me personally.

I've still not seen a die land on top of the other die.

deleted

I've seen it, rarely.

Invariably the shooter has previously been warned that both dice have to hit the back wall.

I've seen the stick take the dice from the shooter after he was warned yet continued to throw short.

Frequency: less than 1 %.

Quote: MrV

I've seen it, rarely.

Invariably the shooter has previously been warned that both dice have to hit the back wall.

I've seen the stick take the dice from the shooter after he was warned yet continued to throw short.

Frequency: less than 1 %.

I was no rolled once at Buffalo Bill's in Primm. Neither die made it to the end of the table, and a previous roll had one die come short, and I'd been told.

I got my range after that. My roll is normally straight down the middle of the table, with little flight and a lot of hit the surface. It's about as controlled as a two year after a can of pepsi max.

I don't recall ever seeing a no roll on a short roll before or since. I don't play 1% of the craps some of the posters here do. I have seen warnings before, Tulalip in Washington was particularly hot on warning folks on any short roll.

Quote:

Zcore13
As discussed way too many times to even count, it is not a legal shot to not hit the back wall. Although you MIGHT get away with it once (or twice at the very most), a non-legal throw can not be considered as influencing the dice since the goal of DI is to get past the house advantage and win consistently.

You're 100% wrong, there isn't a craps shooting school, that teaches their students not to hit the back wall. Every shot that a DI makes is set up to hit the back walk, and that is what is so funny about the stupid casinos, telling a dice setter that they have to hit the back wall.

If you were to take a class, you would find out that for yourself.

To start with nobody can beat the house advantage, you can't take a negative game and turn it positive, just with someones shooting, there is more to a DI then their shooting, they need to know when to bet and how to bet the game, they can't make stupid bets like the $204 across and expect to win on a consistent basis. Winning is all about ROI, and loss limits, as a casinos worker you should know that. Casinos make money off craps by their rolls per hour.

The casinos can't make money if the dice will not stay on the tables, most casinos are worst then the players when it come to believing all the great fiction that has been written about the so-called DI's.
Someone that is a DI will set the dice faster then any other shooter on the table, so it's BS when you or anybody else says a real DI takes to long to set the dice and they slow down the game. Your stupid players that watch some stupid movie that had a scene it where the big winner was kissing the dice or doing something so stupid as blowing on them, to make them a winner, slows the game down more then anybody else!


At one time there were some really good dealers and boxmen and suits, they all understood the game and how it was played, now days you got a bunch of dealers that don't know anything about the game, they took a class to learn how to deal it, and that is all they know about the game. The old dealers and suits all understood, that if a player won one day they would come back the next and give it all back and then some! Now days we have corporate run casinos, where the the players are never supposed to win at any casino game!

The BS about someone hitting the back wall is just a way of intimidating someone that is on a roll, that is enforced on a whim, by a dealer or boxman, or suit! Yes,.. in the great state of NV there is no law that says you have to hit the back wall, but our casinos say that you may have to hit the back wall if you are winning, if you're a loser, they could care less about hitting it!

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/

There Alan M,.. I did you're job, of a reporter, you can also check out this guys blog that has been fighting to get some laws on playing craps, so everybody get treated the same when we are playing. He even had a quote from you I think, because I couldn't get you're link to work. Zcore13 as someone that works in the casino industry you too should read up on what you are saying before you write it! Basically here in NV, the casinos can do anything they want to, there is no law on hitting the back wall, I've never had anybody working the craps tables not pay me on a shot that they didn't call a no roll on. I've had them call no-rolls on me when they had a little tub at Palace Station when the dice didn't hit the back wall, because the table was so bouncy that the dice would bounce backwards sometimes. They even call a few no-rolls on me there that were 7 outs, if they didn't say anything, before the dice stopped! That table is no longer there!

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/2012/01/craps-rules-vs-laws.html

It all comes down to this, watch a slow-motion video of the dice, and you can see that all the shots are random, when the dice hit the table they are bouncing all over the place.

Slow motion videos of dice shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc

Players win at craps because there is a trend, and they are on the right side of the trend, and just getting lucky.

Basically you can write anything you want to on any forum on the game of craps, there are all kinds of fiction writers on the different craps boards. I would never take hearsay on anything. As I'm sure MrV, and the rest of the guys that read these boards would say,.. show us the rule we don't want the BS,.. that some writers want to post. If I made my living off what I wrote, I would never take hearsay as anything, but BS! You could call the gaming board and get ten different answers to you're questions, depending you who you got on the phone!

Back to the question that started this thread, I've been banned from playing craps at a few casinos, only because I was getting lucky and on some good rolls. They used their rule, that they use on anybody that is winning that the shooter had to hit the back wall, even when I was hitting it every time, on a whim and kicked me out of the casinos. Again there is no law, but there is a BS rule that if you are winning they will stop you by saying that you didn't hit the back wall, when everybody else is missing the back wall. Unlike other states that do have laws on playing craps NV has none! The casinos make up rules as you are playing, and pull them out of their ass if you are winning!

So Zcore13 and Alan M. There you have it,.. NO LAW,...they do have a Rule that a Casino will use to Stop a player from Winning,.. it's used on a whim to stop anybody that is setting the dice and is winning! "You Got To Hit the Back Wall" shooter, now that you are winning!

If a player had something they could use on the casinos like a rule they pull out of their ass every time the casino was winning, poor, poor, Zcore wouldn't have a job, and of course there wouldn't be any craps in the casinos. Ever game in a casino, is designed to take you're money they are all negative games of chance! The only game that they have in a casino that is not negative is, the poker games that they take a rank off of!

Quote: superrick

Quote:

Zcore13
As discussed way too many times to even count, it is not a legal shot to not hit the back wall. Although you MIGHT get away with it once (or twice at the very most), a non-legal throw can not be considered as influencing the dice since the goal of DI is to get past the house advantage and win consistently.

You're 100% wrong, there isn't a craps shooting school, that teaches their students not to hit the back wall. Every shot that a DI makes is set up to hit the back walk, and that is what is so funny about the stupid casinos, telling a dice setter that they have to hit the back wall.

If you were to take a class, you would find out that for yourself.

To start with nobody can beat the house advantage, you can't take a negative game and turn it positive, just with someones shooting, there is more to a DI then their shooting, they need to know when to bet and how to bet the game, they can't make stupid bets like the $204 across and expect to win on a consistent basis. Winning is all about ROI, and loss limits, as a casinos worker you should know that. Casinos make money off craps by their rolls per hour.

The casinos can't make money if the dice will not stay on the tables, most casinos are worst then the players when it come to believing all the great fiction that has been written about the so-called DI's.
Someone that is a DI will set the dice faster then any other shooter on the table, so it's BS when you or anybody else says a real DI takes to long to set the dice and they slow down the game. Your stupid players that watch some stupid movie that had a scene it where the big winner was kissing the dice or doing something so stupid as blowing on them, to make them a winner, slows the game down more then anybody else!


At one time there were some really good dealers and boxmen and suits, they all understood the game and how it was played, now days you got a bunch of dealers that don't know anything about the game, they took a class to learn how to deal it, and that is all they know about the game. The old dealers and suits all understood, that if a player won one day they would come back the next and give it all back and then some! Now days we have corporate run casinos, where the the players are never supposed to win at any casino game!

The BS about someone hitting the back wall is just a way of intimidating someone that is on a roll, that is enforced on a whim, by a dealer or boxman, or suit! Yes,.. in the great state of NV there is no law that says you have to hit the back wall, but our casinos say that you may have to hit the back wall if you are winning, if you're a loser, they could care less about hitting it!

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/

There Alan M,.. I did you're job, of a reporter, you can also check out this guys blog that has been fighting to get some laws on playing craps, so everybody get treated the same when we are playing. He even had a quote from you I think, because I couldn't get you're link to work. Zcore13 as someone that works in the casino industry you too should read up on what you are saying before you write it! Basically here in NV, the casinos can do anything they want to, there is no law on hitting the back wall, I've never had anybody working the craps tables not pay me on a shot that they didn't call a no roll on. I've had them call no-rolls on me when they had a little tub at Palace Station when the dice didn't hit the back wall, because the table was so bouncy that the dice would bounce backwards sometimes. They even call a few no-rolls on me there that were 7 outs, if they didn't say anything, before the dice stopped! That table is no longer there!

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/2012/01/craps-rules-vs-laws.html

It all comes down to this, watch a slow-motion video of the dice, and you can see that all the shots are random, when the dice hit the table they are bouncing all over the place.

Slow motion videos of dice shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc

Players win at craps because there is a trend, and they are on the right side of the trend, and just getting lucky.

Basically you can write anything you want to on any forum on the game of craps, there are all kinds of fiction writers on the different craps boards. I would never take hearsay on anything. As I'm sure MrV, and the rest of the guys that read these boards would say,.. show us the rule we don't want the BS,.. that some writers want to post. If I made my living off what I wrote, I would never take hearsay as anything, but BS! You could call the gaming board and get ten different answers to you're questions, depending you who you got on the phone!

Back to the question that started this thread, I've been banned from playing craps at a few casinos, only because I was getting lucky and on some good rolls. They used their rule, that they use on anybody that is winning that the shooter had to hit the back wall, even when I was hitting it every time, on a whim and kicked me out of the casinos. Again there is no law, but there is a BS rule that if you are winning they will stop you by saying that you didn't hit the back wall, when everybody else is missing the back wall. Unlike other states that do have laws on playing craps NV has none! The casinos make up rules as you are playing, and pull them out of their ass if you are winning!

So Zcore13 and Alan M. There you have it,.. NO LAW,...they do have a Rule that a Casino will use to Stop a player from Winning,.. it's used on a whim to stop anybody that is setting the dice and is winning! "You Got To Hit the Back Wall" shooter, now that you are winning!

If a player had something they could use on the casinos like a rule they pull out of their ass every time the casino was winning, poor, poor, Zcore wouldn't have a job, and of course there wouldn't be any craps in the casinos. Ever game in a casino, is designed to take you're money they are all negative games of chance! The only game that they have in a casino that is not negative is, the poker games that they take a rank off of!

The only thing I'm saying is that DI/DC doesn't exist unless it's in a way that is cheating. Sliding the dice or purposeful short rolls. Both of these will get caught and banned. My opinion is that simple. It doesn't exist.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

The only thing I'm saying is that DI/DC doesn't exist unless it's in a way that is cheating. Sliding the dice or purposeful short rolls. Both of these will get caught and banned. My opinion is that simple. It doesn't exist.

ZCore13

I think it's really clear that your opinion is wrong. Further, you have stated your opinion in the past without the qualification that it was your opinion.

It is generally known that short rolls can be advantage rolls. (not opinion)

It is generally known that all shooters, controlled and non-controlled shooters alike have a percentage of rolls that are short. (not opinion)

It is generally known that controlled shooters will receive more "heat" from short rolls than random shooters. (not opinion)

It is generally known that all short rolls are paid in Las Vegas (with very few exceptions). (not opinion)

All of this evidence of things that I think is what I would refer to as "common knowledge" refutes your opinion and belief. Advantage craps players are out there and trading an earful about short rolls every time they roll short for the opportunity to play with an edge.

Not to say that this is the ONLY way to play with an edge, but I believe that even a seasoned box man would tell you that an edge is possible if you sneak in enough shorties, AND that it's totally legal and only the casino can stop it by enforcing the short rolls more aggressively.

Why we even have to get to such a level of detail because some guy who operates a casino in another state that doesn't have a craps table has an "opinion" that he rattles off as if he's an expert because he works for a casino is possibly another topic for discussion.

Ahigh

(I put that in there in case you didn't realize it was me)

I start to wear safety goggles when I play craps . And those ones' are special , they made out of thick dark glass , it does not let radiation through , the one used during nuclear bomb testing . One of the experts on dice control stated that dice emits energy upon contacting the table surface . You better watch out people ,you might be exposed to radiation .

So now it looks like Ahigh is now pushing short rolls as the way he is the Worlds Best Craps player if he just could control himself (1/2 the time) to stop betting on other throwers who really should be nowhere near a craps table because they have not mastered short roll dice control like him.

OK, now I am starting to get it, but then again, if everyone thought like me, the world would end soon according to him.

And I do feel for the poor employee who had to have the conversation with him who doesnt make enough to eat. Just where do those average income numbers for dealers come from anyways???

Quote: Ahigh

I think it's really clear that your opinion is wrong. Further, you have stated your opinion in the past without the qualification that it was your opinion.

It is generally known that short rolls can be advantage rolls. (not opinion)

It is generally known that all shooters, controlled and non-controlled shooters alike have a percentage of rolls that are short. (not opinion)

It is generally known that controlled shooters will receive more "heat" from short rolls than random shooters. (not opinion)

It is generally known that all short rolls are paid in Las Vegas (with very few exceptions). (not opinion)

All of this evidence of things that I think is what I would refer to as "common knowledge" refutes your opinion and belief. Advantage craps players are out there and trading an earful about short rolls every time they roll short for the opportunity to play with an edge.

Not to say that this is the ONLY way to play with an edge, but I believe that even a seasoned box man would tell you that an edge is possible if you sneak in enough shorties, AND that it's totally legal and only the casino can stop it by enforcing the short rolls more aggressively.

Why we even have to get to such a level of detail because some guy who operates a casino in another state that doesn't have a craps table has an "opinion" that he rattles off as if he's an expert because he works for a casino is possibly another topic for discussion.

Ahigh

(I put that in there in case you didn't realize it was me)

In case you didnt know....ITS ALL OPINION, and in most cases yours is WRONG. But again, that is just MY Opinion!!!

And I am not going to sign my name large like you to make a point because I DONT have to always need to be the center of attention. But I do enjoy reading your nonsense and waiting for you to throw your next hissy fit and either get banned or walk away.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Dealers claim, (paraphrased) "nobody tips us."

He fails to mention that yeah, craps guys don't get
tipped much, but he shares the tips with every other
dealer in the casino. He's doing better than 90%
of Vegas dealers if he's working at the Palazzo.

Quote: Boz

So now it looks like Ahigh is now pushing short rolls as the way he is the Worlds Best Craps player if he just could control himself (1/2 the time) to stop betting on other throwers who really should be nowhere near a craps table because they have not mastered short roll dice control like him.

OK, now I am starting to get it, but then again, if everyone thought like me, the world would end soon according to him.

And I do feel for the poor employee who had to have the conversation with him who doesnt make enough to eat. Just where do those average income numbers for dealers come from anyways???

It's interesting to see the conclusions you make from what I say. Let's go back to the thread topic. Yes I have been banned for short rolls at South Point (and that does relate to this thread). No I don't roll short in general. I was rolling a bit short just to piss off this particular box at South Point because he insulted me not because I thought I was more likely to win.

And no I don't even claim to be able to advantage play the game nor do I claim to have an advantage from rolling short.

You simply made all that stuff up.

I'm talking, in general, about the POSSIBILITY of it existing, not what I do. I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference though, so I don't take offense at all.

And as far as "pushing?" What the hell? I'm pushing nothing except to keep folks like you from making up crap in your head and believing it. You are creative, though, I will give you that.

All the points I brought up were to counter the stuff that Zcore made up in his mind and chose to believe, and state, and then later to just say it was his "opinion."

If it didn't exist at all in a way that the law allowed as he believes, then no casinos would sweat the short rolls, and they do. That, in a sentence, is my whole counter to his "opinion" and it's all based on what I believe to be common knowledge among people who operate tables around here.

In my opinion

Ahigh has done more good for DC and Di than anyone else that I'm aware of.

Certainly there are many references I don't know about, but I've watched lots of the gtc stuff. Read Scarne, Grafstein and other's.

Watched the video's [w/o naming them] of the dice schools, who are claiming to be professionals and selling their products.

He's put a lot of effort and resources into it and even had a pretty cool craps show on ustream, but I think people here killed it.

His program was also live and not edited like some of the dc promotions.

I hope he doesn't take the bait and just go away.

When he's on suspension the craps threads drop off to nothing except the unsuspecting newbs here to ask questions w/o knowing the wolves lay in wait.

If DI can be proven he may very well be the one to do it.

How can he prove it?

He admits that he cannot do it himself, and nobody else has demonstrated a documented ability on his table, under video conditions,to control the dice.

So, how can he prove it?

Mathematically via analysis of many rolls?

No: GIGO.

My point: unless / until Ahigh videotapes a shooter clearly demonstrating control of the dice on his table, the proposition will remain unproven by him.

A self-professed DI must swagger up to his table and do his stuff; then we can examine the video and see if the dice remain on axis etc.

Nothing else will do.