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7craps
7craps
Joined: Jan 23, 2010
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March 31st, 2013 at 11:15:06 AM permalink
Quote: tupp

Please explain what do you mean by "... to few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls..."

You do accept the fact that there has been 4 events documented for DI control for the appearance of less 7s.
The first 2 was hands down a winner FOR DI
The last 2 was hands down Not a winner for DI
looks to be an even score to mes

Fact (I worked in real casinos in Nevada)
A table full of any DIs make less rolls per hour compared to a table full of random rollers.
You have to prove this wrong, if you can not, it stands as truth.
Casinos make more of their money from more rolls per hour and not from less rolls per hour.

Say YOU own the casino.
Are you really going to allow many DIs to play at YOUR craps table, take their time in rolling the dice to do what they do and have way more short rolls than the average shooter does?
Are you??

I would be a fool to allow it.

Enjoy playing your craps game.
I enjoy playing my craps game
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
tupp
tupp
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
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March 31st, 2013 at 11:55:23 AM permalink
Quote: 7craps

You do accept the fact that there has been 4 events documented for DI control for the appearance of less 7s. The first 2 was hands down a winner FOR DI The last 2 was hands down Not a winner for DI looks to be an even score to mes


Actually, I count seven documented DI trials (4 DI wins, 2 non-DI wins and 1 push), but what does the tally of such events have to do with explaining the phrase, "... to few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls..."


Quote: 7craps

A table full of any DIs make less rolls per hour compared to a table full of random rollers.


No. The opposite is true.

A table full of DIs would be very sedate in their betting -- the dealers wouldn't be constantly changing/moving bets and making new bets, which is what bogs-down the typical full table of finger-snappers and impulsive bettors. DIs generally stick to a very limited number of safe bets.

Furthermore, the 2-3 seconds a DI might take to shoot is much shorter than the 30-second ritual of the typical finger-snapper.


Quote: 7craps

You have to prove this wrong, if you can not, it stands as truth.


Why? Just because you say so?


Quote: 7craps

Are you really going to allow many DIs to play at YOUR craps table, take their time in rolling the dice to do what they do and have way more short rolls than the average shooter does?


Again, DIs almost always take less time tossing and betting than most finger-snappers and typical wild betters who bog-down the table.

Furthermore, where does this myth come from that DIs try to sneak-in short rolls? DIs do not strive for short rolls -- short rolls are not what they have laboriously honed and practiced.
7craps
7craps
Joined: Jan 23, 2010
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March 31st, 2013 at 12:07:40 PM permalink
Quote: tupp

Why? Just because you say so?

20 years of actual casino dealing dice says so.
over 40 years when you include 2 dealers experiences.
I have seen actual casino studies on rolls per hour.
I was not allowed to have those documents.

What is your proof? Empirical as mine.

Fact still remains. casinos want more rolls per hour.
They can easily get this by replacing all craps games with slot machines.
Just keep a few old tables around so some can see what it was like in the olden days.

They do not get that from a table full of DIs.
A table full of DIs are not very sedate in their betting.
Your statement is a wishful opinion only (everyone can have an opinion)
added:
Quote: tupp

Again, DIs almost always take less time tossing and betting than most finger-sanppers and typical wild betters who bog-down the table.

again, only your opinion from how many total hours and years at a casino craps table???
We all can have an opinion.
The final say is with the casino.
They do not like you, you can go and play the slots only or go to another casino.

Quote: tupp

Furthermore, where does this myth come from that DIs try to sneak-in short rolls?
DIs do not strive for short rolls -- short rolls are not what they have laboriously honed and practiced.

no myth. a fact. More short rolls come from DIs than non-DIs.
I actually did two studies on this in 1999 and 2007.
I could publish them but it would cost some one a cool $10 million US for that to happen.

any DI knows better control comes from avoiding the back wall. I may look stupid but I am not
The dice do way better going to the wall and kissing it.

again
I enjoy playing my craps game and having fun my way
you enjoy playing yours
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
Joined: Mar 27, 2013
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March 31st, 2013 at 12:27:24 PM permalink
I think it is more like decisions per hour and not rolls per hour. A table full of gamblers, bets all over the layout, might have substantially fewer rolls per hour but far more decisions per hour. The casino makes more money with more decisions because most of the bets are being wagered.

Dice setters can take forever. No doubt. These people are not, on the whole, controlled shooters. They are just dice setters.

I did a study for one of my books and the time between getting the dice and the stickman calling the number was around 10-11 seconds. That held for both dice controllers and random rollers. But there was a difference. The controlled shooters looked slower because they moved slower in the beginning. However, their dice tended to die faster after hitting the back wall than the winger's. Also many random rollers wasted a lot of time with meaningless stuff at the beginning of their rolls as well; shaking the dice, throwing them to the wall under them, setting the dice without knowing where pips are located and so on.

I would not confuse the dice controller with the dice setter. The dice setter is merely a part of the random group.

I don't know if I will be the ruin of craps. I hope not. There are more craps tables in America today than at any time in history. They are just spread out. But one truly negative thing is happening. The casinos would love slot-table-games or electronic-table-games (as they call them here in New York) to take over the landscape. Yes, that would be a sin.
TheWolf713
TheWolf713
Joined: Feb 12, 2013
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March 31st, 2013 at 12:28:00 PM permalink
Quote: tupp

Actually, I count seven documented DI trials (4 DI wins, 2 non-DI wins and 1 push), but what does the tally of such events have to do with explaining the phrase, "... to few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls..."



No. The opposite is true.

A table full of DIs would be very sedate in their betting -- the dealers wouldn't be constantly changing/moving bets and making new bets, which is what bogs-down the typical full table of finger-snappers and impulsive bettors. DIs generally stick to a very limited number of safe bets.

Furthermore, the 2-3 seconds a DI might take to shoot is much shorter than the 30-second ritual of the typical finger-snapper.


.



The casino makes good money off of those proposition bets... Who cares if a dealer will have to work less.. They dont mind taking time to put up those prop bets... Which further proves the DI is costing money because now they have people on the clock doing minimal work!!! Employee salary should be at about 5 percent and if you are making fewer bets and it's not generating as much revenue..

It's like a restaurant.. They make money by 'turning' tables.. Just because a customer comes in every week and orders one drink, doesn't make them a "good customer"... If they are sitting at a table for 3 hours, after a while, they have started to cost you money. Same with a casino... the casino has a dilemma, of losing one customer to gain more
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter" -Mark Walberg pain and Gain
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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March 31st, 2013 at 12:30:48 PM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

I wrote articles for several newspapers and magazines down there. I did a radio show each week. I probably sent them thousands of players.
.



In the perfect AP world, this would get you welcomed with
open arms and a permanent suite. In the real world, where
you play, the pep talk the floor gets isn't 'protect our image,
get new players.' Its 'you better be protecting the bottom
line or your asses are out the door.'

You can't have it both ways. You can't be a hero to the players
for teaching them to win, and a hero to the casinos for taking
their money. But you know this, I don't even know why you brought
the subject up. Unless its to generate interest in the new book
you have coming out, which you mentioned in the OP.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
7craps
7craps
Joined: Jan 23, 2010
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March 31st, 2013 at 12:48:50 PM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

I think it is more like decisions per hour and not rolls per hour. A table full of gamblers, bets all over the layout, might have substantially fewer rolls per hour but far more decisions per hour. The casino makes more money with more decisions because most of the bets are being wagered.

Good addition.
But decisions per hour depend on how many players, the number of bets and the heartbeat of Craps, the dice roll.
With LESS rolls per hour, the casino makes less $$$.
This is a proven fact.

Franks Casino would do the same thing.
demand an acceptable rolls per hour from the craps table (acceptable to the casino) or they could just raise the minimum to play too.
The casino can not demand X number of bets from each player. What a joke that would be.


They make sure the dice keep moving. The heartbeat is each roll.
No roll, no winners.
They really want the dice antics to be as quick as possible, from the dancers to the DIers.

So, if every craps player took Franks lessons and won more money for themselves and just other craps players,
the casino could easily throw away all craps games or just get rid of the dice, it would still be craps.
place 100% blame on FrankS for killing craps and go all electronic.
Craps will still go on. Many would still play.
I bet they would still make as much or even more money doing it this way.

Damn the Great Recession.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
tupp
tupp
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
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March 31st, 2013 at 1:09:26 PM permalink
Quote: 7craps

20 years of actual casino dealing dice says so. over 40 years when you include 2 dealers experiences. I have seen actual casino studies on rolls per hour. I was not allowed to have those documents. What is your proof? Empirical as mine.


Your proof really sounds empirical.


Quote: 7craps

They do not get that from a table full of DIs. A table full of DIs are not very sedate in their betting.


If you say so.


Quote: 7craps

Your statement is a wishful opinion only (everyone can have an opinion)


Having the opportunity to play at a table that was actually full of DIs would certainly be wishful thinking. It is rare to ever see one true DI, but a table full of them would be absolutely amazing.


Quote: 7craps

no myth. a fact. More short rolls come from DIs than non-DIs. I actually did two studies on this in 1999 and 2007. I could publish them but it would cost some one a cool $10 million US for that to happen.


Would love to see the studies that prove such "facts."


Quote: 7craps

any DI knows better control comes from avoiding the back wall. [snip] The dice do way better going to the wall and kissing it.


Everybody knows that the dice have to touch the back wall. DIs as a rule try to avoid heat, so, they aren't going to intentionally call attention to themselves with short/blanket rolls. They practice "kissing" the back wall, as you mentioned.


Quote: 7craps

I enjoy playing my craps game and having fun my way you enjoy playing yours


Fine. But let's try to stick to fact when making statements.
superrick
superrick
Joined: Jul 14, 2010
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March 31st, 2013 at 1:12:10 PM permalink
Quote:


FS
Yes, a dice controller can be barred (“Sir, you can play any other game in the casino but you cannot shoot the dice at craps.”) or banned. (“If you come back to this casino in the future you will be arrested for trespassing.”) Although casinos in Vegas, other Nevada venues, Mississippi and in most of the Midwest casinos don’t have to give a reason, they usually do. (“Sir, you are too good for us.”)



Of course dice setters can be banned so can the random rollers which I've seen happen. The only difference is that they didn't want there lucky streak to end and they didn't think they were doing anything wrong.
Now on the other hand some writers are wearing their banning on the chest like a badge of honor to sell more books. They were saying look guys, I was so good that they won't even let me play craps there any more, when that is probably far from the truth. It may have been the fact that they paraded a steady stream of students into the casino that they were banned at and even passed out business cards at the casino tables. Talk about getting right in somebody face and telling them we are here to take your money.

Then you have to look at what went on at the table with the musical chairs and the bragging if someone did get on a good roll. All in the name of selling their schools, they were on a mission to sell anything they could, without thinking of the consequences and what it would do to craps!
In their ever increasing need to get more players to buy into what they were selling, more BS was written about the game.

If they were so good at winning the casinos money why in the world would they need to sell anybody anything at all? That is a question that they should be asking the guys that are still out there pushing anything they can sell. How do you tell if you just booked a decent school that is going to teach you something about the game of craps and how to bet the game along with shooting, it's very simple, they are not selling everything under the sun to make money off anybody they get into their classes!

Because of this in your face type of selling classes and anything else some of these guys are selling you now have casino heat and good players that just got lucky being banned from casinos, and again its not a badge of honor for them!

Some of these writers are were so good at what they were writing they even had the casinos believing in what they were doing, they got the casinos to make counter measures on their tables, that turned out to be just funny on the casinos part, because they made the tables so bouncy that the dice wouldn't stay on the tables, therefore costing the casinos money. That was because casino management went into panic mode when they started reading all this BS that was being written about all the money these so-called DI's were taking off the tables. The truth was they didn't have anything to worry about, because it was just BS!

They were so blinded by the BS they they didn't see what they did to the tables was robbing them of money when their roll count went down, you can't make money on a craps table if you can't keep the dice on a table. Common sense went out the doors, when all the pencil pushers that didn't know a thing about the game read some of these books that was selling becoming a DI.

So you had the dawn of a new era in the game of craps, after they coined the famous words “Dice Influencer” Lets hear it for all these great writers that ruined the game just so they could make money selling their BS!

Now you have the new era for FS, he is now retired and needs to promote a new book, so here he is asking and posting all kinds of questions, so he can sell some more BS, to the unsuspecting public that buys that kind of crap! You would think in his retirement he would have faded away, taking life easy, but no way now he is try to sell more BS after his student base dried up and he got out of teaching BS!

Just think guys you only have yourselves to blame for buying into this BS.

I would have to vote him and a few others as the ones that did the most damage to the game of craps, maybe he is a good writer, but what do you do with a guy that his ego is so big, he would do anything to be call a great craps player, even in retirement?
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
24Bingo
24Bingo
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
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March 31st, 2013 at 1:22:24 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

So do I. In a perfect world, casinos wouldn't care if we won so long as we don't break the law or procedures aren't being broken. But they get to execise the same rights we players do and not play when they feel they are at any disadvantage.



In a perfect world, casinos would just dispense with the games and hand you money. And while we're at it, bars and coffee shops would never charge a dime, there would be no green fees, ticket fees, etc.

Banning dice controllers is foolish, but only because they can't possibly pull it off (except sliders and army blanket rollers who as Frank points out are virtually nonexistent now). Beyond that, they deserve compensation just like everyone else, and their procedures are and should be set up to just that end. They don't have to freely bleed off money just because Uncle Sam won't lock you away for trying to get them to.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.

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