Can You Be Banned for Dice Control? Have Casinos Done This?

First let me make a distinction between “dice setting” and controlled shooting. A tremendous number of players set the dice this way, that way, some other way. This is nothing more than just setting the dice. Often these “dice setters” will wing the dice down the table where they bounce all over the place after hitting the back wall. Nothing but a random game here.

The dice controller (dice influencer) on the other hand not only sets the dice but takes care with his roll. Here the object isn’t just a dice set but some control of the outcome of a roll. No longer a totally random game in this case.

Can a “dice setter” be thrown out of the casinos? Yes. I’ve never personally seen a plain, old dice setter who does not have a controlled throw bounced (other than for drunkenness or that kind of thing). I’ve never seen a drink spilled on someone who has had hot rolls in order to cool him off, whether that someone is merely a dice setter or a dice controller. Why bother losing beverage money when the “tap on the shoulder” can start the heave-ho-ing? (Note: Alan Mendelson mentioned in a post that he got the “tap” at several Vegas casinos and he had no dice control skill. So he is the exception to my experience.)

Yes, a dice controller can be barred (“Sir, you can play any other game in the casino but you cannot shoot the dice at craps.”) or banned. (“If you come back to this casino in the future you will be arrested for trespassing.”) Although casinos in Vegas, other Nevada venues, Mississippi and in most of the Midwest casinos don’t have to give a reason, they usually do. (“Sir, you are too good for us.”)

Sadly both things have happened to me. In Tunica, in a single week, I was banned from every casino. (I have the full story of this in my book The Virgin Kiss.) I was threatened with arrest if I returned (the banning in Fitzgerald’s was nasty; the banning at the Grand – now Harrah’s – was almost comical – it took eight suits to do it; the banning at Sam’s Town was weird because I hadn’t even started playing) and the pit boss at Gold Strike let me know that no matter what casino I went into I would get the heave-ho. He was right. I went into three more and out I was escorted. They didn’t want my play in Mississippi. This was for craps by the way. Most were “trespassing” offenses (if I came back I would get arrested for trespassing) and a couple were a little scary (although the scariest banning that ever happened to me was in the early 1990s in Vegas).

I know many of you have seen “My Cousin Vinny” and you think it is a comedy. It’s actually a documentary. I do not want to go to jail in Mississippi.

The following year I went down to Tunica to teach a dice control class. We had 40 students. The sheriff’s department came to the non-casino hotel where we were going to hold the class and told me that I would be arrested if I held the class because I would be using “gaming tables” to teach the students on and there was some kind of “Faro” law from the 1800’s that banned gaming tables for private use.

My lawyer said we would win the case hands-down as we had won a case in the early 2000’s where we were also threatened with arrest for teaching how to beat the casinos. (“No one is allowed to teach people the casino games in Mississippi unless you are a dealers’ school.”) We took that case to the Mississippi attorney general who realized it was a “free speech” case and he withdrew the charges. Still, it cost a small fortune to establish “free speech” in Mississippi. This victory allowed other dice control teachers to continue with their classes.

My lawyer also told me that Mississippi would keep bringing up reasons to arrest me even though they would lose every case. His view was that the state was only interested in harassing me by costing me lawyers’ fees. He recommended that we move our classes to Tennessee which we did. I haven’t set foot in Mississippi since, although I am glad that Mississippi has finally passed the 13th Amendment to the Constitution in recent years which was the Amendment that outlawed slavery. (http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/270499/1/Mississippi-Ratifies-13th-Amendment-148-Years-After-Slavery-Abolished)

We hired buses and drove all of our students into Tennessee. As I just said, I haven’t stepped foot in Mississippi since.

My most recent banning for craps was at Bellagio in Las Vegas. The full story of that banning will be in my next book. It was a really nasty banning shared with Jerry “Stickman,” John “Skinny,” and “Not Too Soon.” I mean a really nasty, nasty banning.

Those writers who claim that no one has ever been banned for dice control just haven’t experienced it or don’t know anyone who has been unfortunate enough to be “asked” to leave the casinos or threatened with arrest should they return. Trust me, it is not fun. Trust me, it has happened.

Although Atlantic City cannot technically ban an advantage player, it can make your play a PITA (pain-in-the-ass). One night in 2002 or 2003 (memory fails at the moment), John “Skinny” in front of 10 witnesses was almost physically assaulted by a Pit Boss named Francis at the Claridge. John is an excellent dice controller and had just rolled his 26th number. He is also a BIG bettor, often orange chips. The dice scooted over to the box person’s side of the table, out of the view of Francis who was hovering over the game like a buzzard. Francis leaped over to the table and started yelling at Skinny.

We had about eight other people at the table including Marilyn “the Goddess,” Charlie “Sandtrap,” Jack “the Raging Baritone,” Dominator, Jerry “Stickman” and some others whose names I have forgotten at the moment.

John “Skinny” had indeed hit the back wall with both dice. We all saw that, as did the dealers. But when asked about it, the dealers stayed mum – obviously they didn’t want to contradict their raging boss. Several rolls later, Skinny did miss the back wall. At that point, Francis leapt across the table – and I mean across the table with his whole body – going after Skinny who backed up. If I were writing fiction I’d have had Francis foaming at the mouth during this encounter. He wasn’t foaming, just slobbering and spitting.

Francis said he would take the dice away from Skinny if he missed the back wall again. The floor person and box person helped Francis get off the table. Skinny sevened out a few rolls later and took all his orange chips and colored up. We all colored up.

There was a casino manager at Trump Plaza who also tended to go berserk when we played there – this was probably eight years ago. He’d come down and start threatening to take the dice away if we missed the back wall. For some strange reason, some casino people (and some players) think that is what a dice controller is trying to do – miss the back wall. Not so. Since the throw is geared to hitting the back wall, a back wall miss is probably just a random throw. (I am discounting those few players who can actually do a “kill shot.”) I have information about the back wall in “Cutting Edge Craps.” It isn’t always what it seems.

Maybe the all time record for being barred for craps happened at Bally’s in Vegas when 17 of us – yes 17 of us – playing at two different tables were “asked” to leave in a most disgraceful way. It seems both tables had shooters who were wickedly on fire – happily I was one of them. The casino was losing a lot of money. (Not all dice controllers are small bettors although that is another myth that seems to have circulated.) The suits and security guards came over in force. They stopped the game. They surrounded us.

Since true nastiness reigned during this, one of our players Arman “Pit Boss,” got into a face-to-face shouting match with the casino manager. If Arman had gone totally nuts (he’s a former soccer player and strong as a former soccer player), that casino manager would have been toast. We pulled him away and all 17 of us left the casino.

I am now writing a chapter in a new book about the experiences I have had in the area of ungracious behavior by casinos. I go into detail about such cases.

Why did my bannings happen? I only have myself to blame. I ruined myself in Tunica because I kept going back and back and back for more. I should have lessened the length of my stays, not played at the same casinos time and time again. I didn’t follow my own advice. Same thing happened at Bellagio. Same at Treasure Island. Same at other Vegas casinos. But I’ve also experienced (too many times!), the tap for blackjack as well.

If you owned or managed or was a floor person in a
casino, would you let you play? Can you blame them
for their treatment of you? You're one of the few
really famous people in the gaming world, you've
written books on how to beat casinos at various games,
and here you are playing at their casinos, rubbing it
in their faces. What would you expect them to do.
What would you do if you were in their place.

You really can't have it all. You can't write books for decades,
have TV shows done about you, become world famous,
and expect casinos to treat you any different than
they do. You're like John Dillinger complaining because
they kick him out the banks he goes into. Being an
unknown is every AP's trump card, most guard it with
great care. As you've just shown, with good reason..

Bob, you have it backwards. Respectfully.

Frank and his fellows should as a matter of good business sense be welcomed into each and every casino they visit. Here is why...

Gambling is built on a dream. Just as golfers take to the links dreaming of playing one hole during their round just like Tiger and Jack ("Honey, I birdied no. 14 today!), gamblers visit the gaming tables dreaming of the big score.

Casinos need the Frank Scobletes of the world, making money and writing of their big scores. So the rest of us have something to dream about when we walk through the door.

Good points EvenBob.

I see it somewhat differently. I used to recommend Tunica as the best place to gamble in the country in the 1990s. I wrote articles for several newspapers and magazines down there. I did a radio show each week. I probably sent them thousands of players. (It was the best place to play in the 1990s on the whole.)

Bellagio is no different. When my team (The Five Horsemen) played there before anyone knew we were there, maybe that would have been a time for them to ask us to leave. However, once word got out that we played there, the place became packed with random rollers looking to play with us, unskilled dice controllers wishing to play with us, and others wondering where all these craps players were coming from. Indeed, we once had over 20 people follow us into the casino from Las Vegas Blvd. The week I was banned from Bellagio, there were easily over a hundred players from GTC or friends of those from GTC who packed the place. I would say most of these players were random rollers; their spouses or significant others were probably playing other games as well.

As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing. Does this person bring in more business because he is playing here? If so, let him play. We'll make money even if it isn't off of him. In the case of a couple, one a slot player and one an advantage-player, as a couple do they lose more than they win? If so, let them play.

Sometimes I think the casinos are penny wise and pound foolish.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

Exactly. And probably never will.

But conversely, casinos also generate an aura for themselves by doing bannings. And that aura is, of course, the fact that banning alleged Advantage Players means, after all, that it must be possible to beat a casino.

So, probably, bannings will continue.

Quote: FrankScoblete

As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing. Does this person bring in more business because he is playing here? If so, let him play. We'll make money even if it isn't off of him. In the case of a couple, one a slot player and one an advantage-player, as a couple do they lose more than they win? If so, let them play.

Sometimes I think the casinos are penny wise and pound foolish.

This is hardly limited to casino management. In fact it is universal in management I feel, one of the reasons I no longer care much to get back to mid-level management. Upper-management can say, "hey the place did great this month!" But mid-level from say floor to box-man can have their bosses point to a winning player and say, "how did you let that happen?" Since most lower-level managers sooner or later get a job goal of not being hassled they ban the winning player. When the drop is off that falls somewhere else. They can retort that the hold is better. But the bottom line falls. That comes back to upper management.

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Quote: FrankScoblete

As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing.

FrankS's multi-billion dollar casino opened yesterday in Las Vegas Nevada.

You are walking thru your table game pit and notice a quite a few Blackjack dealers really talking a lot with their players
and not really dealing the game while talking.

Watching the Craps action, you notice DIs are taking between 10 to 20 seconds
to roll the dice on average as compared to 1 to 2 seconds for those that do not fuss with the dice
and many of their (DI) rolls are short, not even hitting the back wall with one or both of the dice.

You wonder in your mind as you make it to your million dollar office and sit down,
the less number of hands per hour at BJ and the less number of rolls per hour and higher # of short rolls at Craps
could some how change your bottom line for the worse.

You call one of your bean counters in and have her look into it.
You go to lunch and come back to a report on your desk about the matter.
Just as you thought, those actions cost the casino real $$$ and a lot of it over a years time.

You have a board meeting tomorrow too.

Do you make any changes to the chatty BJ dealers and the DIs at YOUR craps tables??
or
Do you just let the BJ dealers talk and talk and not deal at a decent pace
and the local DIs still taking a long time to roll the dice with many short rolls still continue??

7 craps and evenbob are right..

The crowd a person of your noteriety probably brings is not the crowd these casinos are looking for... For example if you are teaching players not to bet on other random rollers, you are packing the tables, yet slowing down their money!!! The words "school and practice" are automatically time consuming words.. And time is money on their clock.

Second, The "let me win and I'll bring you the losers" pimp roll is played out. These games sell themselves... If they stopped every DI at the front door, the table would still be full. It's easy to think of what you do now, but can you even remember the allure of what got YOU TO THE TABLE?. There will be "another you" right behind us. Having to learn, take losses, finding a crew, and then getting banned later, too. The cycle never stops

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Right. A consistant winner is only taking up space for a consistant loser.

Exactly... I respect what the frank does, but I also understand the business model and we know it's about a dollar

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Quote: FrankScoblete

Why did my bannings happen? I only have myself to blame.

Exactly.

Only a *fill in the blank* would approach a heavily armed US Marine and say "can I stab you?"

If in fact dice setting worked, a serious gambler would have kept it to himself.

It doesn't work, of course, but arrogance led to a banning as persona non grata.

Apt.

Quote: MrV

If in fact dice setting worked, a serious gambler would have kept it to himself.

I find great comedy in this weak assertion in such a strong statement.

Arrogance? It takes one to know one I suppose.

Quote: Ahigh

I find great comedy in this weak assertion in such a strong statement.

As do I find "great comedy" in your posts about dice setting.

We make each other laugh; too bad we cannot join together and make the casinos cry.

Quote: MrV

If in fact dice setting worked, a serious gambler would have kept it to himself.

EO Thorp could have kept beating BJ to himself and others that studied that way back then. But he did not. He is a math guy and math guys love to prove things with math to others.

John Scarne said Thorp had no clue how to play BJ. But they were friends.
Scarne is gone to the big casino in the sky and Thorp is happy in Newport Beach, CA the last I looked

Let us say the FrankS becomes Craps God#1 and millions take his lessons and slam the casinos. Done without any math.
FrankS really never needed the math.

The casinos say we do not need this type of action, too many winners,
too few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls that start yelling matches and slows down the game even more.

The casinos can easily replace dice with a different random number generator,
like an urn with plastic balls numbered 1 thru 6 in it that the shooter reaches in and selects 2. A dice roll without the dice.
No FUN for the players!

Hey, blame it on FrankS for ruining the game for the others that came after.
The casino says, if you want to play Craps with dice, do it at your home and have fun.

or better yet, make all craps games a slot machine and remove the Craps table all together.
Slots make way more money for the casino any ways.
For that matter, remove all the table games, They are relics from the past.
Blame the disappearance of real Craps on FrankS.

Kind of like a cancer.
The cancer takes over the body until the body finally dies, and so does the cancer.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Right. A consistant winner is only taking up space for a consistant loser.

Quote: TheWolf713

Exactly... I respect what the frank does, but I also understand the business model and we know it's about a dollar

Consistent winner? Sounds like we have accepted that dice influencing is possible.

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Quote: 7craps

The casinos say we do not need this type of action, too many winners, too few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls that start yelling matches and slows down the game even more.

Please explain what do you mean by "... to few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls..."

Quote: tupp

Please explain what do you mean by "... to few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls..."

You do accept the fact that there has been 4 events documented for DI control for the appearance of less 7s.
The first 2 was hands down a winner FOR DI
The last 2 was hands down Not a winner for DI
looks to be an even score to mes

Fact (I worked in real casinos in Nevada)
A table full of any DIs make less rolls per hour compared to a table full of random rollers.
You have to prove this wrong, if you can not, it stands as truth.
Casinos make more of their money from more rolls per hour and not from less rolls per hour.

Say YOU own the casino.
Are you really going to allow many DIs to play at YOUR craps table, take their time in rolling the dice to do what they do and have way more short rolls than the average shooter does?
Are you??

I would be a fool to allow it.

Enjoy playing your craps game.
I enjoy playing my craps game

Quote: 7craps

You do accept the fact that there has been 4 events documented for DI control for the appearance of less 7s. The first 2 was hands down a winner FOR DI The last 2 was hands down Not a winner for DI looks to be an even score to mes

Actually, I count seven documented DI trials (4 DI wins, 2 non-DI wins and 1 push), but what does the tally of such events have to do with explaining the phrase, "... to few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls..."

Quote: 7craps

A table full of any DIs make less rolls per hour compared to a table full of random rollers.

No. The opposite is true.

A table full of DIs would be very sedate in their betting -- the dealers wouldn't be constantly changing/moving bets and making new bets, which is what bogs-down the typical full table of finger-snappers and impulsive bettors. DIs generally stick to a very limited number of safe bets.

Furthermore, the 2-3 seconds a DI might take to shoot is much shorter than the 30-second ritual of the typical finger-snapper.

Quote: 7craps

You have to prove this wrong, if you can not, it stands as truth.

Why? Just because you say so?

Quote: 7craps

Are you really going to allow many DIs to play at YOUR craps table, take their time in rolling the dice to do what they do and have way more short rolls than the average shooter does?

Again, DIs almost always take less time tossing and betting than most finger-snappers and typical wild betters who bog-down the table.

Furthermore, where does this myth come from that DIs try to sneak-in short rolls? DIs do not strive for short rolls -- short rolls are not what they have laboriously honed and practiced.

Quote: tupp

Why? Just because you say so?

20 years of actual casino dealing dice says so.
over 40 years when you include 2 dealers experiences.
I have seen actual casino studies on rolls per hour.
I was not allowed to have those documents.

What is your proof? Empirical as mine.

Fact still remains. casinos want more rolls per hour.
They can easily get this by replacing all craps games with slot machines.
Just keep a few old tables around so some can see what it was like in the olden days.

They do not get that from a table full of DIs.
A table full of DIs are not very sedate in their betting.
Your statement is a wishful opinion only (everyone can have an opinion)
added:

Quote: tupp

Again, DIs almost always take less time tossing and betting than most finger-sanppers and typical wild betters who bog-down the table.

again, only your opinion from how many total hours and years at a casino craps table???
We all can have an opinion.
The final say is with the casino.
They do not like you, you can go and play the slots only or go to another casino.

Quote: tupp

Furthermore, where does this myth come from that DIs try to sneak-in short rolls?
DIs do not strive for short rolls -- short rolls are not what they have laboriously honed and practiced.

no myth. a fact. More short rolls come from DIs than non-DIs.
I actually did two studies on this in 1999 and 2007.
I could publish them but it would cost some one a cool $10 million US for that to happen.

any DI knows better control comes from avoiding the back wall. I may look stupid but I am not
The dice do way better going to the wall and kissing it.

again
I enjoy playing my craps game and having fun my way
you enjoy playing yours

I think it is more like decisions per hour and not rolls per hour. A table full of gamblers, bets all over the layout, might have substantially fewer rolls per hour but far more decisions per hour. The casino makes more money with more decisions because most of the bets are being wagered.

Dice setters can take forever. No doubt. These people are not, on the whole, controlled shooters. They are just dice setters.

I did a study for one of my books and the time between getting the dice and the stickman calling the number was around 10-11 seconds. That held for both dice controllers and random rollers. But there was a difference. The controlled shooters looked slower because they moved slower in the beginning. However, their dice tended to die faster after hitting the back wall than the winger's. Also many random rollers wasted a lot of time with meaningless stuff at the beginning of their rolls as well; shaking the dice, throwing them to the wall under them, setting the dice without knowing where pips are located and so on.

I would not confuse the dice controller with the dice setter. The dice setter is merely a part of the random group.

I don't know if I will be the ruin of craps. I hope not. There are more craps tables in America today than at any time in history. They are just spread out. But one truly negative thing is happening. The casinos would love slot-table-games or electronic-table-games (as they call them here in New York) to take over the landscape. Yes, that would be a sin.

Quote: tupp

Actually, I count seven documented DI trials (4 DI wins, 2 non-DI wins and 1 push), but what does the tally of such events have to do with explaining the phrase, "... to few rolls per hour and way too many short rolls..."



No. The opposite is true.

A table full of DIs would be very sedate in their betting -- the dealers wouldn't be constantly changing/moving bets and making new bets, which is what bogs-down the typical full table of finger-snappers and impulsive bettors. DIs generally stick to a very limited number of safe bets.

Furthermore, the 2-3 seconds a DI might take to shoot is much shorter than the 30-second ritual of the typical finger-snapper.


.

The casino makes good money off of those proposition bets... Who cares if a dealer will have to work less.. They dont mind taking time to put up those prop bets... Which further proves the DI is costing money because now they have people on the clock doing minimal work!!! Employee salary should be at about 5 percent and if you are making fewer bets and it's not generating as much revenue..

It's like a restaurant.. They make money by 'turning' tables.. Just because a customer comes in every week and orders one drink, doesn't make them a "good customer"... If they are sitting at a table for 3 hours, after a while, they have started to cost you money. Same with a casino... the casino has a dilemma, of losing one customer to gain more

Quote: FrankScoblete

I wrote articles for several newspapers and magazines down there. I did a radio show each week. I probably sent them thousands of players.
.

In the perfect AP world, this would get you welcomed with
open arms and a permanent suite. In the real world, where
you play, the pep talk the floor gets isn't 'protect our image,
get new players.' Its 'you better be protecting the bottom
line or your asses are out the door.'

You can't have it both ways. You can't be a hero to the players
for teaching them to win, and a hero to the casinos for taking
their money. But you know this, I don't even know why you brought
the subject up. Unless its to generate interest in the new book
you have coming out, which you mentioned in the OP.

Quote: FrankScoblete

I think it is more like decisions per hour and not rolls per hour. A table full of gamblers, bets all over the layout, might have substantially fewer rolls per hour but far more decisions per hour. The casino makes more money with more decisions because most of the bets are being wagered.

Good addition.
But decisions per hour depend on how many players, the number of bets and the heartbeat of Craps, the dice roll.
With LESS rolls per hour, the casino makes less $$$.
This is a proven fact.

Franks Casino would do the same thing.
demand an acceptable rolls per hour from the craps table (acceptable to the casino) or they could just raise the minimum to play too.
The casino can not demand X number of bets from each player. What a joke that would be.


They make sure the dice keep moving. The heartbeat is each roll.
No roll, no winners.
They really want the dice antics to be as quick as possible, from the dancers to the DIers.

So, if every craps player took Franks lessons and won more money for themselves and just other craps players,
the casino could easily throw away all craps games or just get rid of the dice, it would still be craps.
place 100% blame on FrankS for killing craps and go all electronic.
Craps will still go on. Many would still play.
I bet they would still make as much or even more money doing it this way.

Damn the Great Recession.

Quote: 7craps

20 years of actual casino dealing dice says so. over 40 years when you include 2 dealers experiences. I have seen actual casino studies on rolls per hour. I was not allowed to have those documents. What is your proof? Empirical as mine.

Your proof really sounds empirical.

Quote: 7craps

They do not get that from a table full of DIs. A table full of DIs are not very sedate in their betting.

If you say so.

Quote: 7craps

Your statement is a wishful opinion only (everyone can have an opinion)

Having the opportunity to play at a table that was actually full of DIs would certainly be wishful thinking. It is rare to ever see one true DI, but a table full of them would be absolutely amazing.

Quote: 7craps

no myth. a fact. More short rolls come from DIs than non-DIs. I actually did two studies on this in 1999 and 2007. I could publish them but it would cost some one a cool $10 million US for that to happen.

Would love to see the studies that prove such "facts."

Quote: 7craps

any DI knows better control comes from avoiding the back wall. [snip] The dice do way better going to the wall and kissing it.

Everybody knows that the dice have to touch the back wall. DIs as a rule try to avoid heat, so, they aren't going to intentionally call attention to themselves with short/blanket rolls. They practice "kissing" the back wall, as you mentioned.

Quote: 7craps

I enjoy playing my craps game and having fun my way you enjoy playing yours

Fine. But let's try to stick to fact when making statements.

Quote:

FS
Yes, a dice controller can be barred (“Sir, you can play any other game in the casino but you cannot shoot the dice at craps.”) or banned. (“If you come back to this casino in the future you will be arrested for trespassing.”) Although casinos in Vegas, other Nevada venues, Mississippi and in most of the Midwest casinos don’t have to give a reason, they usually do. (“Sir, you are too good for us.”)

Of course dice setters can be banned so can the random rollers which I've seen happen. The only difference is that they didn't want there lucky streak to end and they didn't think they were doing anything wrong.
Now on the other hand some writers are wearing their banning on the chest like a badge of honor to sell more books. They were saying look guys, I was so good that they won't even let me play craps there any more, when that is probably far from the truth. It may have been the fact that they paraded a steady stream of students into the casino that they were banned at and even passed out business cards at the casino tables. Talk about getting right in somebody face and telling them we are here to take your money.

Then you have to look at what went on at the table with the musical chairs and the bragging if someone did get on a good roll. All in the name of selling their schools, they were on a mission to sell anything they could, without thinking of the consequences and what it would do to craps!
In their ever increasing need to get more players to buy into what they were selling, more BS was written about the game.

If they were so good at winning the casinos money why in the world would they need to sell anybody anything at all? That is a question that they should be asking the guys that are still out there pushing anything they can sell. How do you tell if you just booked a decent school that is going to teach you something about the game of craps and how to bet the game along with shooting, it's very simple, they are not selling everything under the sun to make money off anybody they get into their classes!

Because of this in your face type of selling classes and anything else some of these guys are selling you now have casino heat and good players that just got lucky being banned from casinos, and again its not a badge of honor for them!

Some of these writers are were so good at what they were writing they even had the casinos believing in what they were doing, they got the casinos to make counter measures on their tables, that turned out to be just funny on the casinos part, because they made the tables so bouncy that the dice wouldn't stay on the tables, therefore costing the casinos money. That was because casino management went into panic mode when they started reading all this BS that was being written about all the money these so-called DI's were taking off the tables. The truth was they didn't have anything to worry about, because it was just BS!

They were so blinded by the BS they they didn't see what they did to the tables was robbing them of money when their roll count went down, you can't make money on a craps table if you can't keep the dice on a table. Common sense went out the doors, when all the pencil pushers that didn't know a thing about the game read some of these books that was selling becoming a DI.

So you had the dawn of a new era in the game of craps, after they coined the famous words “Dice Influencer” Lets hear it for all these great writers that ruined the game just so they could make money selling their BS!

Now you have the new era for FS, he is now retired and needs to promote a new book, so here he is asking and posting all kinds of questions, so he can sell some more BS, to the unsuspecting public that buys that kind of crap! You would think in his retirement he would have faded away, taking life easy, but no way now he is try to sell more BS after his student base dried up and he got out of teaching BS!

Just think guys you only have yourselves to blame for buying into this BS.

I would have to vote him and a few others as the ones that did the most damage to the game of craps, maybe he is a good writer, but what do you do with a guy that his ego is so big, he would do anything to be call a great craps player, even in retirement?

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

So do I. In a perfect world, casinos wouldn't care if we won so long as we don't break the law or procedures aren't being broken. But they get to execise the same rights we players do and not play when they feel they are at any disadvantage.

In a perfect world, casinos would just dispense with the games and hand you money. And while we're at it, bars and coffee shops would never charge a dime, there would be no green fees, ticket fees, etc.

Banning dice controllers is foolish, but only because they can't possibly pull it off (except sliders and army blanket rollers who as Frank points out are virtually nonexistent now). Beyond that, they deserve compensation just like everyone else, and their procedures are and should be set up to just that end. They don't have to freely bleed off money just because Uncle Sam won't lock you away for trying to get them to.

deleted

All it takes is nothing to get banned. Has anyone ever tried supergluing the dice together? I wonder if you can get banned for that.

Quote: TheWolf713

The casino makes good money off of those proposition bets... Who cares if a dealer will have to work less.. They dont mind taking time to put up those prop bets... Which further proves the DI is costing money because now they have people on the clock doing minimal work!!! Employee salary should be at about 5 percent and if you are making fewer bets and it's not generating as much revenue..

It's like a restaurant.. They make money by 'turning' tables.. Just because a customer comes in every week and orders one drink, doesn't make them a "good customer"... If they are sitting at a table for 3 hours, after a while, they have started to cost you money. Same with a casino... the casino has a dilemma, of losing one customer to gain more

I have no special skills involving DI, but I just don't like to throw them like a girl. I don't buy in at crowded tables but they do fill up during play, that's another reason to exit.
It seems to me that a long roll causes those prop bets to grow and grow, taking more and more time. The whole table filling up with prop wager's, player's being payed, pressing, late entrants to the game buying in. It takes over a minute for the stick person to get ready, after splitting them for the box man to almost give me the dice back. Then somebody decides they want some hop bets. The box is hard of hearing as I am, bettor not loud or clear, repeats wager, box confirms. There's thousands on the place and line, hundreds on the props and they're messing around with 5 one dollar bets on the hop. Then finally the stick slides the dice toward me, about 18 inches out so I gotta really reach and tells me to hurry up and roll! Gotta love it. In my head I do consider letting "em fly right off the table and requesting same die. Just trying to have a little fun, that's why we're all here right?

They ought to not have prop bet's except on the come out.

A couple of points I'd like to make:

1. Random rollers take longer to throw the dice than those who try dice influencing or dice control. Anyone who has practiced setting dice can set the dice in two seconds or less. I've written about this many times: as the dice are pushed to me I know exactly how to rotate the faces to create my set and I can throw the dice almost instantly.

It's the random shooters who do all kinds of strange things such as rolling the dice in front of them, making all sorts of changes in the set, asking their girl to kiss the dice, picking up the dice and shaking them, calling out for cocktails, drinking their beer between throws, calling out to their friends at the other tables, chanting, saying gimme a six (or whatever the point is), or changing their bets while they have the dice in their hands.

I really doubt that anyone who has studied DI or DC would do any of that.

I've been at tables where random shooters went through a routine that was so long and so drawn out it took nearly a full minute for the dice to get in the air-- and then they went off the table.

Stop saying DIs delay the game.

2. A couple of months ago at Caesars when I had made my fifth point on the fire bet and I was now going for point number six, I took my sweet ass time and the dealers let me do it. I was the only player at the table with a fire bet and when another player at the table complained I was taking so long, a dealer explained what was at stake for me. Each successive throw they let me set the dice, take deep breaths, take my time... no pressure at all.

3. I've been told to leave both NYNY and Bellagio. At NYNY they took the dice away from me for setting even though I hit the back wall every time and my dice were bouncing all over the place. When the box and stick said they didn't like setting I asked if they believe it works and they said yes. After the next pass the boxman said "you're through."

At Bellagio they refused to pay my bets because the dice didn't bounce off the wall far enough (they came to rest against the wall) and when a floor person at another table told the crew at my table to pay the bets the crew got into a shouting fight with the floor person and I was told to leave while they fought it out. Later Bellagio management apologized to me and said the crew was being "retrained." Ironically I was losing money when I had the lucky rolls with the dice leaning against the back wall. When I played again at the Bellagio a few months later a floorman made it obvious to me I wasn't welcomed there.

At MGM I had one monster roll.. and after that a floorman would go to any table I was at and tell the boxman that if I missed the back wall even once to take the dice from me, though I was welcome to bet. On a visit several months later as soon as I stepped up to the table to buy in, two suits and two security guards walked up to the table to watch me. I never shot that day. Didn't have to. My sister (a random roller) shot first and held the dice for about 35 minutes. We cashed out and left.

4. I never had a problem at Caesars, though one time many years ago, a boxman (they had boxmen then) reminded me to hit the back wall with both dice. That was the only time anything was ever said. And if you play there you know they do not enforce hitting the back wall with both dice -- they only ask that you make a reasonable effort to hit the back wall with both dice. Obviously if you don't hit the back wall everytime they will notice.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Stop saying DIs delay the game.

Fine.

DIs are cheating.

Better?

Quote: MrV

Fine.

DIs are cheating.

Better?

Now why would you say DIs are cheating? And I hope that you're not going to start with that silly argument that any attempt to change the odds of the game is cheating, because the Enforcement Division of the Nevada Gaming Commission IS ON RECORD that it is okay to set the dice and use a controlled throw BUT the casinos do not have to let you throw. Just like with blackjack counters: it is LEGAL to count cards, but the casinos do not have to let you play.

And if your losing money, how much does it hurt the bottom line. At big properties probably barely a dent, unless they come in and win consistently everyday. This always bothers me about where I work. They sweat a $2000 deficit on the table. Also, a guy had a purple stolen from him. His own fault since he left his chips on the craps table. Surveillance caught it, but the guy doesn't wanna press charges and they won't reimburse him (which they don't really have to) but if he never comes back then they lost a lot more than 500. At least give the guy some free slot play.

Quote: ewjones080

And if your losing money, how much does it hurt the bottom line. At big properties probably barely a dent, unless they come in and win consistently everyday. This always bothers me about where I work. They sweat a $2000 deficit on the table. Also, a guy had a purple stolen from him. His own fault since he left his chips on the craps table. Surveillance caught it, but the guy doesn't wanna press charges and they won't reimburse him (which they don't really have to) but if he never comes back then they lost a lot more than 500. At least give the guy some free slot play.

Are you saying it's his fault because he had chips sitting in the chip rail?
Is the theft really that bad is Vegas? If it was Vegas?
Thanks for the heads up.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I hope that you're not going to start with that silly argument that any attempt to change the odds of the game is cheating ... Just like with blackjack counters: it is LEGAL to count cards, but the casinos do not have to let you play.

Ah, but there is a significant difference between card counting and dice setting.

A card counter, when counting correctly, achieves an edge against the house only, and his play does not mathematically affect the results which other players can reasonably expect.

A dice setter, IF IN FACT DICE SETTING ACTUALLY WORKED, would negatively affect the result which others at the craps table would otherwise expect.

For example, setting for seven on the come out, IF IT WORKED, would be "cheating" a dark sider on that roll.

See now?

I knew it Mr V, you brought up the same old worn-out topic that has been discussed for at least the last ten years from time to time. It was the same topic that I reported on when I was with KCAL and I put on my website moredeals.com (since sold) and I have on my website now:

http://www.alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

Take a look at the article:
DICE CONTROL: IS IT LEGAL? IS IT POSSIBLE?
Update May 3, 2011

Yes, it's almost two years ago that this came up AGAIN because people like you just don't want to accept what the game of craps is all about.

So once again I am going to repeat the OFFICIAL position of the Nevada Gaming Commission Enforcement Division. Ready? Will you let this sink in, please? Here it is, in Q and A format with the NGC on the record:

Q: "Does the Gaming Commission then consider "dice setting" to fall under the definition of "cheating"?

A: "No, as long as the dice fly in the air, bounce on the table, and hit the back wall. In some cases the casinos are lenient about the dice not hitting the back wall, and these are still legal throws, no cheating."

I also asked the regulators in Michigan and New Jersey and they said the same thing but I do not have exact quotes from them.

If you want to read the entire article, please do.

Then give it a rest.

You might not think dice setting and a controlled throw works, but with the exception of a slide or whipshot it's not illegal and it doesn't violate any rule of the game.

All this time I was so frustrated, when all I had to do is realize we are only talking about dice setting alone. Things are so much simpler now knowing that someone who sets the dice gets just as random results as someone who doesn't.

Brilliant.

Alan, would you concede that the Nevada Gaming Commission Enforcement Division would have a different opinion about its legality if it were conclusively proven to them that it can be done and is being done successfully in Nevada casinos?

I am certain they would then label it as cheating ... if it really worked.

It would be a clear violation of existing law.

NRS 465.015  Definitions.  As used in this chapter:

1.  “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:

(a) The result of a game.

If they felt a player really could, via dice setting (or bone arranging, whatever label its doltish devotees care to use) "alter the elements of chance" ... hello, well-deserved gray bar hotel.

The only reason they DON'T arrest dice setters is because they, like me, find it to be little more than a non-threatening circle jerk.

Quote: MrV

circle jerk.

I've never heard this term. What does that mean?

Quote: MrV

Alan, would you concede that the Nevada Gaming Commission Enforcement Division would have a different opinion about its legality if it were conclusively proven to them that it can be done and is being done successfully in Nevada casinos?

No. Because the point of the game is to give the dice to the shooters.

Look, MrV I quoted those same sections of the law in my article, I discussed those same sections of the law with the NGC. Stop trying to twist it. the game of craps is what the game of craps is. The dice are given to the players to determine the outcome of the game. That's it, deal with it.

Now, the question you should be asking is this: If there were an army of dice controllers, would the traditional game of craps still be offered?

I played craps for a second time the other day over at Harrah's Rincon near San Diego. I wanted to kill some time between hourly drawings for $1,000 giveaways and craps seemed like a fun way to spend the time. By the way, I only bet the passline $5 and the fire bet for $5. No one made more than three passes. On a lark I made a few $5 hard six bets, and I hit one and made the bet $25 and that one hit for a payout of $250 and that kept me at the table for a few hours.

But I raise the point about Rincon because they have card craps. You could be the best dice controller in the world and it would do you no good, because when you throw a hard 8 the cards under the 4 and 4 could be 5 and 2 for a seven out.

There is nothing keeping the Vegas casinos from switching to card craps if too many people become true dice controllers and dice influencers. Or the casinos might have their own house rules which say "no setting" and under the law they can do that.

But dice setting and dice control -- if possible -- are considered to be "a part of the game." If a casino doesn't want it to be part of their game, so be it. So perhaps you should be asking the casino owners if they plan to outlaw dice setting. The NGC says it is okay to do it.

And I do want to say again for the record -- while I try to influence the dice I still question if there is anybody in the world who really can control or influence the dice to any measurable degree. But as I have always said, there is nothing wrong in trying.

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Quote: Ahigh

I've never heard this term. What does that mean?

12 guys get in a circle, half are wearing masks
and half aren't. Face the backside of the person
in front of you and reach around his hips and
throw the dice. Good practice for your wrist,
improves hitting the back wall.

https://www.google.com/search?q=circle+jerk+site%3Awizardofvegas.com%2Fforum

It seems the two guys to use this term on the Wizard of Vegas forum are MrV (twice) and sodawater (once).

I've never heard the term before joining this forum, myself.

So I guess I'm wondering if the two people who have used this term on this forum previously intended for this to be an insult (IE: name calling) to those who they referred to in their posts as being members of said group who are in said circle.

I doubt that the reference was to any definition that would not be considered offensive by anyone fitting of the groups identified by the original posters using such term.

I'm not saying anyone is blindly calling anyone else a "faggot" for example, just saying it sure seems like name-calling to this person not familiar with the term.

If circle jerk is hereby authorized as not name calling, please let me know what the definition is so that I can use it as appropriate in this forum.

IE: moderators disambiguate please!

Ahigh, since you asked I will endeavor to dispel your ignorance; normally I would not post such crudity, but you have insisted, so here goes.

Imagine Boy Scouts are at the Jamboree, and it is raining and oh, so boring.

Imagine how someone comes up with the idea to drop trou, sit in a circle, beat off simultaneously and then annoint as "winner" he who comes first.

That's dice setting.

*my apologies to those who may have been offended by this post, but he DID ask*

I do get a feeling that whatever I write can be used against me. I wish we had a "Miranda Warning" --- Frank, whatever you write will be held against you.

Anyway, Superrick, I am not retired; I just retired from Golden Touch Craps. My plate is full. Doing four major projects at once, all with time limits (writing on a truly great web site board such as this is a part of one of the projects). I also just got a feeler for a web show (those do come and go) from a pretty big network.

Now as far as selling books; I'm guilty. I do want people to read my books. I do want to sell my books. If I feel a reference to my book is relevant to the discussion (my new book is "Everything Casino Poker: Get the Edge at Video Poker, Texas Hold'em, Omaha Hi-Lo and Pai Gow Poker") then I will reference it ("Beat Blackjack Now: The Easiest Way to Get the Edge"). I don't see a problem, unless the discussion really is not proper to a book reference ("Casino Craps: Shoot to Win!") and then I won't make a book reference ("Cutting Edge Craps: Advanced Strategies for Serious Players") because that would be a distraction. I am sure that if any of you had written books, not just gambling books such as my non-gambling book "The Virgin Kiss" you would try to alert people to it. During holidays or for birthdays I would want folks to give other folks a gambling book of mine ("Casino Conquest: Beat the Casinos at Their Own Games") because that would be helpful to the person who received the book. I do not see anything weird in any of this. I'll plug television shows I'm on, or I've written, or movies I have consulted for.

Okay, so I am not retired and yes I want to sell my books.

As to someone being successful and "therefore why would he write stuff about it if he were so successful" and therefore he can't be that successful at the actual activity, just pause and give a thought. Donald Trump teaches a course in real estate at the Learning Center here in New York [whether you love him or hate him]. Well known scientists with major writing credits teach courses in science. Steven Speilberg was teaching a course in film making about a decade ago. Successful actors teach acting courses. Successful chefs teach people how to cook. It can go on and on. Ken Uston, Ed Thorp, Stanford Wong, The Wizard of Odds, all excellent players, all with books to their credit. I think it is in the nature of some of us --- certainly everybody who writes on this site and certainly everybody who writes on Facebook and certainly everybody who comments on the web on news articles, movies, books, television shows, politics, religion and so on, they, us and I want to teach others what they think.

I am not ashamed to admit that my source material for everything I write about is my own life; part of that being the experiences I have had in casinos. I hope to make these experiences written well enough to interest people. But I have written in other areas than gambling; I'm just better known for the gambling writing.

Two last things: I also went to the Nevada Casino Control Commission when I was researching a television show I was writing ("What Would You Do If?") which appeared on the Travel Channel. I wanted to know what was legal and what wasn't legal. Dice control was not illegal, as card counting was not illegal; these activities were not considered changing the nature of the game. After all, the casino gave the player the dice, right? and (here is point two) the player is under no obligation to try to deliberately lose by not trying to control the dice.

Okay, a third thing: Over the years some people have discounted the existence of the Captain because I have never revealed his name or told where he had his 147-roll hand. The judgment of such individuals was that he didn't exist and the roll never happened. Or he existed but I exaggerated his craps prowess and that roll was shorter than I said it was (I did keep an accurate record using chips and he did win what to many of us would be a fortune). Here again, a thought: This is the guy who did these things but did not want to be famous for them or take credit for them but was nice enough to teach me his ideas. He is the shining light for people who criticize those of us who enjoy spreading the word under our own names. If I hadn't written about him, then he would not have existed for anyone except the group of people who knew him. So I think he should be held up as the shining example for those who think that anyone who is successful at gambling should keep their mouths shut.

At 147, just seven short of the record, he wouldn't have been able to keep it secret, because the house would have put it out. On what planet would they not try to capitalize on a table that "hot"?