fivespot
fivespot
Joined: Jul 12, 2010
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:06:13 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If you play clean, casinos don't don't care if you win or lose, as they make their money from the house edge over many players for the long haul. They care if you count cards or do other advantage play maneuvers.


Counting cards is playing clean, as you well know.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:10:17 PM permalink
Quote: fivespot

Counting cards is playing clean, as you well know.


Let's not have another 20 page thread about this please.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
darkoz
darkoz
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:16:27 PM permalink
Quote: fivespot

Counting cards is playing clean, as you well know.



It depends on whether you showered.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:23:36 PM permalink
Or whether you find an illegal 2k a day play
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:29:28 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Or whether you find an illegal 2k a day play



I make sure I stay away from those. Just the legal ones for me.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
Joined: Jul 3, 2015
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:33:08 PM permalink
You should post the legal ones
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
Joined: May 4, 2016
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:09:06 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

What were you playing? Small, moderate or big stakes? Any actions that might raise questions?



I should have attributed that quote to avoid confusion, it was from Richard Brodie's blog. I can't post links since I am under 20 posts, but it's titled June 2, 2007 Fall of the Roman Empire.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:11:43 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

These two are true, though players may count in the state of New Jersey, though expect shallow penetration.


Haven't seen it for this. Playing basic strategy is not card counting. Bet raising and lowering in sync with the count is detectable, and could be an issue. Hitting 12 against a 2 and other correct basic strategy plays aren't an issue. If fact, they may think you're a lousy player.


No. However, if you hit a big hand, they may have surveillance verify that the payout is correct.


Haven't heard this.


If you play clean, casinos don't don't care if you win or lose, as they make their money from the house edge over many players for the long haul. They care if you count cards or do other advantage play maneuvers. If a casino gives you problems for something they shouldn't, don't patronize them, and report them.

Disregard anything Dan is saying about this.


Especially #5 That's happened more times than words in one of Romes long posts. Not just a few casinos either.

Casino have and will kick you out for playing clean.

Dan explain how playing a Video Poker progressive is remotely not clean?

Explain how playing a promotion 100% by the rules is not clean?

Didn't you work at a station casino?

I remember they advertise a good promotion one time. A bunch of different people came in a few hours before and started playing. Before the promotion started a bunch of security and suits came and surround the large bank of machines. They just 86ed everyone.

They have also sent certified letters 86ing people for playing good promotions because they were winning to much period.

Just about every major casino in Las Vegas has 86ed Slot and VP Advantage Players who playing clean *Don't believe just me see below.

Casino have 86ed people who WERE NOT AP's or doing anything wrong they were just winning to much.



*Quote from Bob Dancer: "Talking to others, I have found a number of players who have been 86'd from Suncoast for playing BPD on multiple point days. Some get the restraining order for all casinos in the chain and some don't. Suncoast seems to have the intentional philosophy of dangling this game and multiplier as bait. If a player is smart enough to recognize what a good opportunity this is, the casino promptly cuts him off and adds his name to their list of undesirable players."

I could go on and on and on about many instances and many different locations where AP's who played clean have gotten tricked, beaten, threatened, ripped off, kicked out/86ed. All of the above have happen to me personally.

The worst incident was for simply playing a $1 VP progressive. I was trying to happily leave as they asked. I was calm, didn't argue, I didn't say anything except" I'll cash out and leave, but I'm not going to the back room with you. They weren't happy with that, I was 10 feet from the door when they decided to ponce and drag me into the back room.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
Joined: May 4, 2016
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:16:34 PM permalink
Quote: fivespot

Look, casinos can - and do - punish or ban or 86 people for any damn reason they want. It does not have to make sense. It does not have to be based in fact. It does not even have to be in the best interest of the casino. These decisions are made by individuals, and individuals can have their own agendas.

It sounds like you are - or should be - a low-limit player. You probably are not going to attract anyone's attention. You're not going to make a blip on their balance sheet at the end of the month. You're not going to make a floor supervisor gawk at how much you win one day. You're not going to make a director of marketing look bad because you exploited his promotion. You're not, I hope, going to be unpleasant to anyone to the point that they develop a personal vendetta against you.

If they don't notice you, you're just another customer, and they have no reason to take action against you. Nobody will care one way or the other. There are plenty of reasons not to "get that caught up in playing" recreationally at casinos, but for you, concern about casino retaliation doesn't sound like it should be one of them.



Thanks for the words.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:22:14 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

First of all let me preface this by saying I am new to the world of casinos but thanks to people and websites like Wizards of Odds I was able to make my first few visits enjoyable. Unfortunately, as I read and watch more I see a darker side of the casinos emerge where players allege that casinos think that anyone not dumping money into *suckers bets* is somehow playing unfairly.(despite the fact that the casinos are the ones writing the rules that the *unfair players* are taking advantage off...) Before I really involve myself becoming a more frequent patron of casinos I was hoping to get a better picture of the truth vs rumor and speculation.

As far as my question goes, I am not talking about cheating games, fraudulently signing up for offers, or harassing property or staff in a casino or anything of that nature resulting in punishment. I am talking about playing the games in casino according to the rules but since you aren't bleeding money at a low return-to-player rate you are not welcome. What I know for a fact:

#1 People get kicked out (or other punishment) for counting cards playing Blackjack at pretty much any Casino in the USA
#2 People got kicked out of Greektown Casino in 2003 for winning too much at Video Poker

What I have seen rumored / speculated:
#3 You can get banned from Blackjack for playing optimal strategy (but not counting cards)
#4 You can get banned from non-Blackjack table games for winning too much
#5 You can get your players club account status and/or rewards taken away if you earned it playing high return video poker

Do casinos really commonly do those things ? I am just a recreational player who enjoys playing a variety of games for the fun of it plus trying to break even through comps or at least make my bank roll last as long a possible. But if casinos are really this unfair about lowering player returns I might not want to get myself that caught up in playing.

Casino's are getting better overall I think. That's probably because there are less good games and juicy promotions. It's probably not as bad as you think. There's some AP friendly places. Plaza is very tolerant about AP, they have some +EV games lots of 9/6. They run various promotions. Palm seems to be tolerant. Honestly I think it would take a while if ever before you ever had a problem. Especially if you are just looking to eek out some comps and small advantages.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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