DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
Joined: May 4, 2016
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May 4th, 2016 at 5:41:51 PM permalink
First of all let me preface this by saying I am new to the world of casinos but thanks to people and websites like Wizards of Odds I was able to make my first few visits enjoyable. Unfortunately, as I read and watch more I see a darker side of the casinos emerge where players allege that casinos think that anyone not dumping money into *suckers bets* is somehow playing unfairly.(despite the fact that the casinos are the ones writing the rules that the *unfair players* are taking advantage off...) Before I really involve myself becoming a more frequent patron of casinos I was hoping to get a better picture of the truth vs rumor and speculation.

As far as my question goes, I am not talking about cheating games, fraudulently signing up for offers, or harassing property or staff in a casino or anything of that nature resulting in punishment. I am talking about playing the games in casino according to the rules but since you aren't bleeding money at a low return-to-player rate you are not welcome. What I know for a fact:

#1 People get kicked out (or other punishment) for counting cards playing Blackjack at pretty much any Casino in the USA
#2 People got kicked out of Greektown Casino in 2003 for winning too much at Video Poker

What I have seen rumored / speculated:
#3 You can get banned from Blackjack for playing optimal strategy (but not counting cards)
#4 You can get banned from non-Blackjack table games for winning too much
#5 You can get your players club account status and/or rewards taken away if you earned it playing high return video poker

Do casinos really commonly do those things ? I am just a recreational player who enjoys playing a variety of games for the fun of it plus trying to break even through comps or at least make my bank roll last as long a possible. But if casinos are really this unfair about lowering player returns I might not want to get myself that caught up in playing.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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May 4th, 2016 at 6:55:24 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2


#1 People get kicked out (or other punishment) for counting cards playing Blackjack at pretty much any Casino in the USA
#2 People got kicked out of Greektown Casino in 2003 for winning too much at Video Poker.


These two are true, though players may count in the state of New Jersey, though expect shallow penetration.

Quote: DiscreetMaths2

What I have seen rumored / speculated:
#3 You can get banned from Blackjack for playing optimal strategy (but not counting cards)


Haven't seen it for this. Playing basic strategy is not card counting. Bet raising and lowering in sync with the count is detectable, and could be an issue. Hitting 12 against a 2 and other correct basic strategy plays aren't an issue. If fact, they may think you're a lousy player.

Quote: DM2

#4 You can get banned from non-Blackjack table games for winning too much.


No. However, if you hit a big hand, they may have surveillance verify that the payout is correct.

Quote: DM2

#5 You can get your players club account status and/or rewards taken away if you earned it playing high return video poker.


Haven't heard this.

Quote: DM2

Do casinos really commonly do those things ? I am just a recreational player who enjoys playing a variety of games for the fun of it plus trying to break even through comps or at least make my bank roll last as long a possible. But if casinos are really this unfair about lowering player returns I might not want to get myself that caught up in playing.


If you play clean, casinos don't don't care if you win or lose, as they make their money from the house edge over many players for the long haul. They care if you count cards or do other advantage play maneuvers. If a casino gives you problems for something they shouldn't, don't patronize them, and report them.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
Joined: Jul 3, 2015
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:13:33 PM permalink
#5. Absolutely happens

Google quiet lion. Or lion tales video poker

Besides him I have seen it first hand


Not sure how Dan hasn't seen that before , it happens often
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
Joined: May 4, 2016
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:17:14 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

These two are true, though players may count in the state of New Jersey, though expect shallow penetration.


Haven't seen it for this. Playing basic strategy is not card counting. Bet raising and lowering in sync with the count is detectable, and could be an issue. Hitting 12 against a 2 and other correct basic strategy plays aren't an issue. If fact, they may think you're a lousy player.


No. However, if you hit a big hand, they may have surveillance verify that the payout is correct.


Haven't heard this.


If you play clean, casinos don't don't care if you win or lose, as they make their money from the house edge over many players for the long haul. They care if you count cards or do other advantage play maneuvers. If a casino gives you problems for something they shouldn't, don't patronize them, and report them.



Thank you for the detailed response. But if you could possibly expand on what advantage play maneuvers they have concern with ? Like would playing a full play video poker machine and taking advantage of a good promo or comp bonus fall under that ?
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:17:38 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

#5. Absolutely happens

Google quiet lion. Or lion tales video poker

Besides him I have seen it first hand


Not sure how Dan hasn't seen that before , it happens often



Play more tables than slots, and that may cover some of the slot side sins; the balance may inadvertently act as camo.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
Joined: May 4, 2016
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:26:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

#5. Absolutely happens

Google quiet lion. Or lion tales video poker

Besides him I have seen it first hand


Not sure how Dan hasn't seen that before , it happens often



Do you think that is just because he is such a high roller ? Or will they go after even small time players on principle ?

"On May 10, Harrah’s sent certified letters to several high rollers informing them that their business was no longer wanted at Caesars Palace or any of the other Harrah’s properties in Nevada, California, and Arizona. I was one of them. I called the office of Tom Jenkins, regional vice president, and got a call back from Terry Byrnes, the VP of customer service. He told me I was being 86ed because they couldn't figure out how to make a profit off me. "
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
Joined: Jul 3, 2015
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:32:54 PM permalink
Depends on what you consider small, no I don't think they are no mailing nickel vp players
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:37:49 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

He told me I was being 86ed because they couldn't figure out how to make a profit off me. "

What were you playing? Small, moderate or big stakes? Any actions that might raise questions?
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:39:50 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Play more tables than slots, and that may cover some of the slot side sins; the balance may inadvertently act as camo.


Dan giving AP advice?!?! The world is coming to an end!!! :-)
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
fivespot
fivespot
Joined: Jul 12, 2010
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:04:14 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

Do casinos really commonly do those things?


Look, casinos can - and do - punish or ban or 86 people for any damn reason they want. It does not have to make sense. It does not have to be based in fact. It does not even have to be in the best interest of the casino. These decisions are made by individuals, and individuals can have their own agendas.

It sounds like you are - or should be - a low-limit player. You probably are not going to attract anyone's attention. You're not going to make a blip on their balance sheet at the end of the month. You're not going to make a floor supervisor gawk at how much you win one day. You're not going to make a director of marketing look bad because you exploited his promotion. You're not, I hope, going to be unpleasant to anyone to the point that they develop a personal vendetta against you.

If they don't notice you, you're just another customer, and they have no reason to take action against you. Nobody will care one way or the other. There are plenty of reasons not to "get that caught up in playing" recreationally at casinos, but for you, concern about casino retaliation doesn't sound like it should be one of them.

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