DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2016 at 5:41:51 PM permalink
First of all let me preface this by saying I am new to the world of casinos but thanks to people and websites like Wizards of Odds I was able to make my first few visits enjoyable. Unfortunately, as I read and watch more I see a darker side of the casinos emerge where players allege that casinos think that anyone not dumping money into *suckers bets* is somehow playing unfairly.(despite the fact that the casinos are the ones writing the rules that the *unfair players* are taking advantage off...) Before I really involve myself becoming a more frequent patron of casinos I was hoping to get a better picture of the truth vs rumor and speculation.

As far as my question goes, I am not talking about cheating games, fraudulently signing up for offers, or harassing property or staff in a casino or anything of that nature resulting in punishment. I am talking about playing the games in casino according to the rules but since you aren't bleeding money at a low return-to-player rate you are not welcome. What I know for a fact:

#1 People get kicked out (or other punishment) for counting cards playing Blackjack at pretty much any Casino in the USA
#2 People got kicked out of Greektown Casino in 2003 for winning too much at Video Poker

What I have seen rumored / speculated:
#3 You can get banned from Blackjack for playing optimal strategy (but not counting cards)
#4 You can get banned from non-Blackjack table games for winning too much
#5 You can get your players club account status and/or rewards taken away if you earned it playing high return video poker

Do casinos really commonly do those things ? I am just a recreational player who enjoys playing a variety of games for the fun of it plus trying to break even through comps or at least make my bank roll last as long a possible. But if casinos are really this unfair about lowering player returns I might not want to get myself that caught up in playing.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2016 at 6:55:24 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2


#1 People get kicked out (or other punishment) for counting cards playing Blackjack at pretty much any Casino in the USA
#2 People got kicked out of Greektown Casino in 2003 for winning too much at Video Poker.


These two are true, though players may count in the state of New Jersey, though expect shallow penetration.

Quote: DiscreetMaths2

What I have seen rumored / speculated:
#3 You can get banned from Blackjack for playing optimal strategy (but not counting cards)


Haven't seen it for this. Playing basic strategy is not card counting. Bet raising and lowering in sync with the count is detectable, and could be an issue. Hitting 12 against a 2 and other correct basic strategy plays aren't an issue. If fact, they may think you're a lousy player.

Quote: DM2

#4 You can get banned from non-Blackjack table games for winning too much.


No. However, if you hit a big hand, they may have surveillance verify that the payout is correct.

Quote: DM2

#5 You can get your players club account status and/or rewards taken away if you earned it playing high return video poker.


Haven't heard this.

Quote: DM2

Do casinos really commonly do those things ? I am just a recreational player who enjoys playing a variety of games for the fun of it plus trying to break even through comps or at least make my bank roll last as long a possible. But if casinos are really this unfair about lowering player returns I might not want to get myself that caught up in playing.


If you play clean, casinos don't don't care if you win or lose, as they make their money from the house edge over many players for the long haul. They care if you count cards or do other advantage play maneuvers. If a casino gives you problems for something they shouldn't, don't patronize them, and report them.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizardofnothing
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:13:33 PM permalink
#5. Absolutely happens

Google quiet lion. Or lion tales video poker

Besides him I have seen it first hand


Not sure how Dan hasn't seen that before , it happens often
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DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:17:14 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

These two are true, though players may count in the state of New Jersey, though expect shallow penetration.


Haven't seen it for this. Playing basic strategy is not card counting. Bet raising and lowering in sync with the count is detectable, and could be an issue. Hitting 12 against a 2 and other correct basic strategy plays aren't an issue. If fact, they may think you're a lousy player.


No. However, if you hit a big hand, they may have surveillance verify that the payout is correct.


Haven't heard this.


If you play clean, casinos don't don't care if you win or lose, as they make their money from the house edge over many players for the long haul. They care if you count cards or do other advantage play maneuvers. If a casino gives you problems for something they shouldn't, don't patronize them, and report them.



Thank you for the detailed response. But if you could possibly expand on what advantage play maneuvers they have concern with ? Like would playing a full play video poker machine and taking advantage of a good promo or comp bonus fall under that ?
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:17:38 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

#5. Absolutely happens

Google quiet lion. Or lion tales video poker

Besides him I have seen it first hand


Not sure how Dan hasn't seen that before , it happens often



Play more tables than slots, and that may cover some of the slot side sins; the balance may inadvertently act as camo.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:26:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

#5. Absolutely happens

Google quiet lion. Or lion tales video poker

Besides him I have seen it first hand


Not sure how Dan hasn't seen that before , it happens often



Do you think that is just because he is such a high roller ? Or will they go after even small time players on principle ?

"On May 10, Harrah’s sent certified letters to several high rollers informing them that their business was no longer wanted at Caesars Palace or any of the other Harrah’s properties in Nevada, California, and Arizona. I was one of them. I called the office of Tom Jenkins, regional vice president, and got a call back from Terry Byrnes, the VP of customer service. He told me I was being 86ed because they couldn't figure out how to make a profit off me. "
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Wizardofnothing
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:32:54 PM permalink
Depends on what you consider small, no I don't think they are no mailing nickel vp players
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SanchoPanza
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:37:49 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

He told me I was being 86ed because they couldn't figure out how to make a profit off me. "

What were you playing? Small, moderate or big stakes? Any actions that might raise questions?
Ibeatyouraces
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May 4th, 2016 at 7:39:50 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Play more tables than slots, and that may cover some of the slot side sins; the balance may inadvertently act as camo.


Dan giving AP advice?!?! The world is coming to an end!!! :-)
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
fivespot
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:04:14 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

Do casinos really commonly do those things?


Look, casinos can - and do - punish or ban or 86 people for any damn reason they want. It does not have to make sense. It does not have to be based in fact. It does not even have to be in the best interest of the casino. These decisions are made by individuals, and individuals can have their own agendas.

It sounds like you are - or should be - a low-limit player. You probably are not going to attract anyone's attention. You're not going to make a blip on their balance sheet at the end of the month. You're not going to make a floor supervisor gawk at how much you win one day. You're not going to make a director of marketing look bad because you exploited his promotion. You're not, I hope, going to be unpleasant to anyone to the point that they develop a personal vendetta against you.

If they don't notice you, you're just another customer, and they have no reason to take action against you. Nobody will care one way or the other. There are plenty of reasons not to "get that caught up in playing" recreationally at casinos, but for you, concern about casino retaliation doesn't sound like it should be one of them.
fivespot
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:06:13 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If you play clean, casinos don't don't care if you win or lose, as they make their money from the house edge over many players for the long haul. They care if you count cards or do other advantage play maneuvers.


Counting cards is playing clean, as you well know.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:10:17 PM permalink
Quote: fivespot

Counting cards is playing clean, as you well know.


Let's not have another 20 page thread about this please.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
darkoz
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:16:27 PM permalink
Quote: fivespot

Counting cards is playing clean, as you well know.



It depends on whether you showered.
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Wizardofnothing
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:23:36 PM permalink
Or whether you find an illegal 2k a day play
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darkoz
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:29:28 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Or whether you find an illegal 2k a day play



I make sure I stay away from those. Just the legal ones for me.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Wizardofnothing
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May 4th, 2016 at 8:33:08 PM permalink
You should post the legal ones
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DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:09:06 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

What were you playing? Small, moderate or big stakes? Any actions that might raise questions?



I should have attributed that quote to avoid confusion, it was from Richard Brodie's blog. I can't post links since I am under 20 posts, but it's titled June 2, 2007 Fall of the Roman Empire.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:11:43 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

These two are true, though players may count in the state of New Jersey, though expect shallow penetration.


Haven't seen it for this. Playing basic strategy is not card counting. Bet raising and lowering in sync with the count is detectable, and could be an issue. Hitting 12 against a 2 and other correct basic strategy plays aren't an issue. If fact, they may think you're a lousy player.


No. However, if you hit a big hand, they may have surveillance verify that the payout is correct.


Haven't heard this.


If you play clean, casinos don't don't care if you win or lose, as they make their money from the house edge over many players for the long haul. They care if you count cards or do other advantage play maneuvers. If a casino gives you problems for something they shouldn't, don't patronize them, and report them.

Disregard anything Dan is saying about this.


Especially #5 That's happened more times than words in one of Romes long posts. Not just a few casinos either.

Casino have and will kick you out for playing clean.

Dan explain how playing a Video Poker progressive is remotely not clean?

Explain how playing a promotion 100% by the rules is not clean?

Didn't you work at a station casino?

I remember they advertise a good promotion one time. A bunch of different people came in a few hours before and started playing. Before the promotion started a bunch of security and suits came and surround the large bank of machines. They just 86ed everyone.

They have also sent certified letters 86ing people for playing good promotions because they were winning to much period.

Just about every major casino in Las Vegas has 86ed Slot and VP Advantage Players who playing clean *Don't believe just me see below.

Casino have 86ed people who WERE NOT AP's or doing anything wrong they were just winning to much.



*Quote from Bob Dancer: "Talking to others, I have found a number of players who have been 86'd from Suncoast for playing BPD on multiple point days. Some get the restraining order for all casinos in the chain and some don't. Suncoast seems to have the intentional philosophy of dangling this game and multiplier as bait. If a player is smart enough to recognize what a good opportunity this is, the casino promptly cuts him off and adds his name to their list of undesirable players."

I could go on and on and on about many instances and many different locations where AP's who played clean have gotten tricked, beaten, threatened, ripped off, kicked out/86ed. All of the above have happen to me personally.

The worst incident was for simply playing a $1 VP progressive. I was trying to happily leave as they asked. I was calm, didn't argue, I didn't say anything except" I'll cash out and leave, but I'm not going to the back room with you. They weren't happy with that, I was 10 feet from the door when they decided to ponce and drag me into the back room.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:16:34 PM permalink
Quote: fivespot

Look, casinos can - and do - punish or ban or 86 people for any damn reason they want. It does not have to make sense. It does not have to be based in fact. It does not even have to be in the best interest of the casino. These decisions are made by individuals, and individuals can have their own agendas.

It sounds like you are - or should be - a low-limit player. You probably are not going to attract anyone's attention. You're not going to make a blip on their balance sheet at the end of the month. You're not going to make a floor supervisor gawk at how much you win one day. You're not going to make a director of marketing look bad because you exploited his promotion. You're not, I hope, going to be unpleasant to anyone to the point that they develop a personal vendetta against you.

If they don't notice you, you're just another customer, and they have no reason to take action against you. Nobody will care one way or the other. There are plenty of reasons not to "get that caught up in playing" recreationally at casinos, but for you, concern about casino retaliation doesn't sound like it should be one of them.



Thanks for the words.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:22:14 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

First of all let me preface this by saying I am new to the world of casinos but thanks to people and websites like Wizards of Odds I was able to make my first few visits enjoyable. Unfortunately, as I read and watch more I see a darker side of the casinos emerge where players allege that casinos think that anyone not dumping money into *suckers bets* is somehow playing unfairly.(despite the fact that the casinos are the ones writing the rules that the *unfair players* are taking advantage off...) Before I really involve myself becoming a more frequent patron of casinos I was hoping to get a better picture of the truth vs rumor and speculation.

As far as my question goes, I am not talking about cheating games, fraudulently signing up for offers, or harassing property or staff in a casino or anything of that nature resulting in punishment. I am talking about playing the games in casino according to the rules but since you aren't bleeding money at a low return-to-player rate you are not welcome. What I know for a fact:

#1 People get kicked out (or other punishment) for counting cards playing Blackjack at pretty much any Casino in the USA
#2 People got kicked out of Greektown Casino in 2003 for winning too much at Video Poker

What I have seen rumored / speculated:
#3 You can get banned from Blackjack for playing optimal strategy (but not counting cards)
#4 You can get banned from non-Blackjack table games for winning too much
#5 You can get your players club account status and/or rewards taken away if you earned it playing high return video poker

Do casinos really commonly do those things ? I am just a recreational player who enjoys playing a variety of games for the fun of it plus trying to break even through comps or at least make my bank roll last as long a possible. But if casinos are really this unfair about lowering player returns I might not want to get myself that caught up in playing.

Casino's are getting better overall I think. That's probably because there are less good games and juicy promotions. It's probably not as bad as you think. There's some AP friendly places. Plaza is very tolerant about AP, they have some +EV games lots of 9/6. They run various promotions. Palm seems to be tolerant. Honestly I think it would take a while if ever before you ever had a problem. Especially if you are just looking to eek out some comps and small advantages.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:40:15 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

.

Richard Brodie got 86ed from Harrah's properties because he hit too many royals on the 100's. That was a serious problem for him because he is also a professional poker player and his banning excluding him from the WSOP. I believe he also worked for Microsoft prior.

EXPLAIN THE UNCLEAN PLAYING PART?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizardofnothing
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:44:17 PM permalink
That was my initial point, dans opinion on this is hogwash , he was actually employee number 8 at Microsoft and worked directly with bill gates and I think developed the original word program:
He hit too many royals and they kicked him out
I was no mailed at a place for the exact same thing
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fivespot
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:47:48 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Palm seems to be tolerant.


Palms is very tolerant. There was one time when a slot supervisor greeted me by name at Palms... not an unusual occurrence, except that this particular slot supervisor had worked at Hard Rock less than a year ago when they'd nomailed me :) I also once had a slot attendant comment about how "they know they're not making money off you" (people playing a particular promotion at particular machines).

It'd seem obvious that if people are beating a casino while following the rules, the issue is with the rules, not the particular people... but it's such a rare thing for casinos to actually have that attitude, that I appreciate it when I do see it.
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:54:26 PM permalink
Quote: fivespot

Counting cards is playing clean, as you well know.


Yeah, Clean enough to get backed off or 86-ed.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:57:25 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Disregard anything Dan is saying about this.


Especially #5 That's happened more times than words in one of Romes long posts. Not just a few casinos either.

Casino have and will kick you out for playing clean.

Dan explain how playing a Video Poker progressive is remotely not clean?

Explain how playing a promotion 100% by the rules is not clean?

Didn't you work at a station casino?

I remember they advertise a good promotion one time. A bunch of different people came in a few hours before and started playing. Before the promotion started a bunch of security and suits came and surround the large bank of machines. They just 86ed everyone.

They have also sent certified letters 86ing people for playing good promotions because they were winning to much period.

Just about every major casino in Las Vegas has 86ed Slot and VP Advantage Players who playing clean *Don't believe just me see below.

Casino have 86ed people who WERE NOT AP's or doing anything wrong they were just winning to much.



*Quote from Bob Dancer: "Talking to others, I have found a number of players who have been 86'd from Suncoast for playing BPD on multiple point days. Some get the restraining order for all casinos in the chain and some don't. Suncoast seems to have the intentional philosophy of dangling this game and multiplier as bait. If a player is smart enough to recognize what a good opportunity this is, the casino promptly cuts him off and adds his name to their list of undesirable players."

I could go on and on and on about many instances and many different locations where AP's who played clean have gotten tricked, beaten, threatened, ripped off, kicked out/86ed. All of the above have happen to me personally.

The worst incident was for simply playing a $1 VP progressive. I was trying to happily leave as they asked. I was calm, didn't argue, I didn't say anything except" I'll cash out and leave, but I'm not going to the back room with you. They weren't happy with that, I was 10 feet from the door when they decided to ponce and drag me into the back room.



I just don't get why setting something like a video poker machine to payout what the casino can actually afford is so hard for them to do. Like do casinos think there is some marginal benefit to raising the payouts on video poker that attracts new players that understand the difference in the paytable to incentivized but yet don't actually know how to play the game well so they are still at low return to player ? I think that argument may hold some water for Blackjack but I just don't see that for video poker...
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
RS
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May 4th, 2016 at 9:59:20 PM permalink
First of all, like has been said before -- probably best to ignore what PaiGowDan writes regarding casinos / AP / what's fair or "clean" / etc. He believes counting cards is akin to cheating and that APs are "schnorrers" (free loaders).


Casinos absolutely kick people out, usually just APs (I believe), but have been known to kick people out who get lucky that are just regular gamblers. If you're a high level AP, you're gonna have to worry about this more than say, a low limit grinder. Also depends on location. I think you're fairly safe (i.e.: from being arrested / back-roomed / etc.) in Las Vegas....and not quite as safe in somewhere like in the South or where gambling is relatively new (North East). I don't think (in my opinion) this is a big problem, but, your mileage may vary.
bobbartop
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May 4th, 2016 at 10:03:52 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


The worst incident was for simply playing a $1 VP progressive. I was trying to happily leave as they asked. I was calm, didn't argue, I didn't say anything except" I'll cash out and leave, but I'm not going to the back room with you. They weren't happy with that, I was 10 feet from the door when they decided to ponce and drag me into the back room.



Am I reading this correctly? Is this about you, Axel, or are you quoting someone? This sounds horrible. I'm sure you must have written about this. I'm new here, can you post a link to where you have talked about this before? I'm dying to read THIS.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2016 at 10:04:00 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Disregard anything Dan is saying about this.


For that matter, I can state "disregard anything that AxelWolf says." Nothing said was inflammatory, anti-AP, or what have you. Just spoke of my casino work experience, though if you receive input from AP players, then expect that to be anti-casino or cautionary from their POV.

The simple fact of the matter is that 99% of players have no issues with casinos or back offs, nor should they expect problems and issues if they go to gamble on the up-and-up. If you aren't on the up-and-up, or employ practices that they don't like, then yes, this may introduce issues. And this includes card counting, which is legal, but unacceptable to many casinos in terms of casino play, so I will say this can cause issues. This is also clearly NOT saying that casinos are saints, or that AP players are low good sacks of cheating crap, but they will say that that's what I'm saying when I saying not. What I am saying is that casinos are businesses, and if you play by the rules, - their rules on such things, - you should be fine.

Gambling isn't a right, is an agreement between two parties - player and gambling hall or casino - who agree to enter into gambling arrangement. If your play is fine with them, then you're fine with them, Not much to it, really.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 10:07:02 PM permalink
I don't know any serious AP who's been Advantage Playing for more than a few years who hasn't had problem with some or all of the things that have been mentioned.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2016 at 10:13:22 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I don't know any serious AP who's been Advantage Playing for more than a few years who hasn't had problem with some or all of the things that have been mentioned.


+1.

Exactly.

Which is to say, if you go for straight up gambling instead of trying to AP them, and play fine by the casino, you'd be fine with them, and they with you.

Generally, if they have an issue with you, it's for a reason, and it isn't because they don't like the color of your shirt of the style of your shoes. Card count or AP, expect some issue. Gamble, just gamble, and expect no issue at all, and free drinks. Yeah, casinos kick people out. They also let people stay and play. And this has more to do with why you're in the casino.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2016 at 10:23:59 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Richard Brodie got 86ed from Harrah's properties because he hit too many royals on the 100's. That was a serious problem for him because he is also a professional poker player and his banning excluding him from the WSOP. I believe he also worked for Microsoft prior.

EXPLAIN THE UNCLEAN PLAYING PART?


I wasn't working slots or surveillance so I can't say. You'd have to ask the slot manager this. I wounder what he would say. I'm sure if he had a case, Bob Nersesian should have been called.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 10:27:08 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

For that matter, I can state "disregard anything that AxelWolf says." Nothing said was inflammatory, anti-AP, or what have you. Just spoke of my casino work experience, though if you receive input from AP players, then expect that to be anti-casino or cautionary from their POV.

The simple fact of the matter is that 99% of players have no issues with casinos or back offs, nor should they expect problems and issues if they go to gamble on the up-and-up. If you aren't on the up-and-up, or employ practices that they don't like, then yes, this may introduce issues. And this includes card counting, which is legal, but unacceptable to many casinos in terms of casino play, so I will say this can cause issues. This is also clearly NOT saying that casinos are saints, or that AP players are low good sacks of cheating crap, but they will say that that's what I'm saying when I saying not. What I am saying is that casinos are businesses, and if you play by the rules, - their rules on such things, - you should be fine.

Gambling isn't a right, is an agreement between two parties - player and gambling hall or casino - who agree to enter into gambling arrangement. If your play is fine with them, then you're fine with them, Not much to it, really.

99% of ploppy's don't have a problem because they are big losers overall.

He's not looking for the ploppy way. It sounds as if he's interested in getting an advantage.

PLEASE explain why playing a progressive is anything but clean play or why they have a problem with it? The casino has already made their money on it. (IMO it's because they are greedy)

Explain why the casinos have on multiple occasions kicked out players before a promotion has even started?

What were they doing wrong? Technically they were even playing a -EV situation at the time.

Explain why multiple casinos have kicked out multiple AP's during a promotion. Something as simple as a drawing. For instance Car A day in May. No shenanigans just play earn tickets.

It's like a restaurant advertising stop by every day and get a free soda with the purchase of any meal $5 or over. So you go in and order a $5 meal and they 86 you because you didn't order the $10 meal.

FYI it's harder for me to think of a casino that hasn't messed with clean AP players and pulled some BS.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
bobbartop
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May 4th, 2016 at 10:43:38 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Richard Brodie got 86ed from Harrah's properties because he hit too many royals on the 100's.




Not just $100 but Full Pay Deuces $100. (3-coin) Bunch of geniuses.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 10:44:07 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I wasn't working slots or surveillance so I can't say. You'd have to ask the slot manager this. I wounder what he would say. I'm sure if he had a case, Bob Nersesian should have been called.



It's because he found a positive game and ran good. DUH!!

It's obvious he wasn't doing anything they eventually overturned the 86ing because of the bad publicly.

THERE'S MANY of exactly the same situations.

How many examples do you want? Did you work at Texas Station?

Pick a casino, any casino.

Why call Bob he wasn't backroomed or anything?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 11:11:26 PM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

Am I reading this correctly? Is this about you, Axel, or are you quoting someone? This sounds horrible. I'm sure you must have written about this. I'm new here, can you post a link to where you have talked about this before? I'm dying to read THIS.

I have mentioned it before with limited details. I'm sure it sounds worst than it was. Considering I have had much worst happen to me in and outside pool halls.

What actually scared me was I actually got outside during the struggle and they/he got me pinned down near a door that went to the back room and he quietly and deviously said, "Oh you're really going to get it now!" Luckily Management and others were already in there.

It was in the 90's before all the big backroom paydays. Bob N took the case, I'm going to see if I can get a copy of the video and watch my young handsome self in action, perhaps during a team get together during football half time. It was settled for a very low amount considering , I would've gladly gave back for a lifted 86.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2016 at 11:28:42 PM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

Not just $100 but Full Pay Deuces $100. (3-coin) Bunch of geniuses.

Yep that's terrible the screwed him out of the 5 coin version(I guess that helps cut down taxables) but there's nothing wrong with putting in $100 FPDW. They could've crushed him. 100.7 is not certainly no lock, he got very lucky 2 Royal in 2 days I believe. I know people who have lost 20k on $1 FPDW.


What made them idiot's is not using it to their advantage. The should have said congratulates we have to change the pays on this. Because we were so generous we have a super nice suite for you, can you do us a small favor and let us feature you and your winnings on our next newsletter and prom mail?

Imagine all the poker players running to the casino looking to score.

Instead they got negative publicly.

Added though. Casino will never get rid of all the AP's there's always someone to take their place.

If the casinos actually embrace AP's. Excluding BJ AP's wouldn't hide, they wouldn't have to worry about getting 86ed. They would probably be willing to have their pictures taken and appear in advertisements, commercials or whatever. Turn them into gambling rock stars. AP's would probably take to social media, forums and help promote the casinos as places people can actually win at. Instead of everyone saying the house always wins. People might actually think and say something different.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
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May 4th, 2016 at 11:52:31 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

99% of ploppy's don't have a problem because they are big losers overall.


on ploppies:
Ploppies can't unilaterally be classified as big losers, though addictive gamblers can be.

I would go so far as to say 100% of roulette, baccarat, and crap players play 100% perfect strategy 100% of the time. 95% of Pai Gow Poker players play a decent game, and 31% of UTH players play well, and all seem to have fun. And some win, some lose. Casinos seem to have NO problems or issues with them: they never get backed off, never have a clear resentment or attitude problem towards casinos or their workers, are fine with dealers and floormen, and enjoy their fine comps that never get pulled away from them.

Quote: AW

He's not looking for the ploppy way. It sounds as if he's interested in getting an advantage.


Grossman sells some excellent strategy cards. And of course, the wizardofodds.com consistently provides a fine strategy for the games displayed. Countless resources are available to learn how to play the games well. But counting and all other AP actions are known disallowed casino actions that often result in trouble, so I can't recommend that. (Besides, you guys will do that, recruit and sell the POV).

But then, the question arises "At the casino, are you there to gamble, or to try some maneuver that you know that won't go over too well with them, while of course insisting it's clean play as they take steps to bar you." This is in spite of the clear and overwhelming evidence that it is not, especially from the casino's point of view when the flat bet you, 86 you, or back you off. Call me radical, but I find this scenario staggeringly undeniable. Many are salmons at this point., Casinos have the right to deny play, and may and will.... Which, when it happens, is often met with righteous and indignant resentment and outrage, as to why they won't "just let me play that way I want to." Obviously doesn't work like that, and for valid reason.

Quote: AW

PLEASE explain why playing a progressive is anything but clean play or why they have a problem with it? The casino has already made their money on it. (IMO it's because they are greedy).


I don't get/agree with casino issues concerning progressive patronage.

Quote: AW

Explain why the casinos have on multiple occasions kicked out players before a promotion has even started?


You'd have to ask them, every case is different in some way. In my years of casino work, I found the vast majority of expulsions were justified and was for the betterment of the place. I generally don't hold in high esteem those who manage to get themselves ejected from a gambling hall.

Quote: AW

Explain why multiple casinos have kicked out multiple AP's during a promotion. Something as simple as a drawing. For instance Car A day in May. No shenanigans just play earn tickets.


They obviously didn't want the promo AP'ed by AP-ers. The issue wasn't the promotion, it was the specter of AP shenanigans influencing the promo. I'm friends with a squeaky-clean high roller who stuff truckloads of promo tickets into a barrel with no issue, a Mr. Promo. If AP players are on the casino's persona non-grata list, out they may go.

Quote: AW

It's like a restaurant advertising stop by every day and get a free soda with the purchase of any meal $5 or over. So you go in and order a $5 meal and they 86 you because you didn't order the $10 meal.


I don't see Hardy's or McDonald's doing this, unless you're filing your own sippy cups. Apt analogy.

Quote: AW

FYI it's harder for me to think of a casino that hasn't messed with clean AP players and pulled some BS.


I don't think it matters what you or I think. I see that they truly and generally don't mess with acceptable customers, and there's no shortage of acceptable customers.

It's clear that I don't have either an optimistic view or an ethical respect for AP players. I state my reasons why I think it is just an alluring quagmire for its practitioners in the end. I know a lot of ex-APs who either got burnt out or just crashed and burned as APs who went on to other areas in gaming to great success. For many, I also thought game designers often lead lives of quiet exasperation in “the relentless denial of the fruitless, silly pursuit” while adamantly subscribing, endorsing and defending it. Ahh, Ruined for life. Personally, I just can’t tow the AP or game design recommendation/endorsement line for most. Failure is the actual experience of a majority of both AP players (wannabes) and game designer (wannabes) - and while the door is closing harder than ever at this point. [Yes, take the bar exam/GMAT/dealer school, what have you, instead….] Add to this a sense or an entitlement of the AP, that “the casinos are evil and are denying our constitutional rights in our Robin Hood-like struggle for some extra cash” in justifying the undermining of their businesses services to the general gambling public. I think neither is a fine recommendation for new members.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
fivespot
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May 5th, 2016 at 12:10:18 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Yeah, Clean enough to get backed off or 86-ed.


Circular logic. "Casinos won't bother you if you play clean." "Clean play is what a casino won't bother you over." Very useful advice, that.

The only difference between a card counter and a non-card-counter is that the card counter uses his head more and plays better. The same is true between a video poker player and a video poker AP. The original poster seems like an intelligent person who is willing to work a little on strategy and game selection. What you deem "some kind of maneuver" or "not playing clean" is going to be simple common sense for him, and it's a legitimate concern whether him going to a casino and gambling - but doing so more intelligently than 99% of patrons - is going to cause the casino to bother him.

To other posters: I take it this guy spews this kind of insulting and nonsensical bullshit every time the topic of advantage play comes up?
EvenBob
EvenBob
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May 5th, 2016 at 12:17:06 AM permalink
Quote:

I would go so far as to say 100% of roulette, baccarat, and crap players play 100% perfect strategy 100% of the time.



Dan made a joke, a funny one too. lol
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RS
RS
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May 5th, 2016 at 12:58:56 AM permalink
fivespot -- Yeah pretty much, but it's usually much worse.
Paigowdan
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May 5th, 2016 at 1:27:11 AM permalink
Quote: fivespot

Circular logic. "Casinos won't bother you if you play clean." "Clean play is what a casino won't bother you over." Very useful advice, that.

The only difference between a card counter and a non-card-counter is that the card counter uses his head more and plays better. The same is true between a video poker player and a video poker AP. The original poster seems like an intelligent person who is willing to work a little on strategy and game selection. What you deem "some kind of maneuver" or "not playing clean" is going to be simple common sense for him, and it's a legitimate concern whether him going to a casino and gambling - but doing so more intelligently than 99% of patrons - is going to cause the casino to bother him.


One cannot say it was good thinking or using your head when getting backed off or expelled from a gambling hall. One can also say that the businessman casino manager is using his head in carrying out - from his point of view - loss prevention, which he has every right to do and does. What defines clean play is being allowed to stay and play. I think the 99% of the players who get to stay and have no problem with casinos are the ones using their heads.

Quote: fivespot

To other posters: I take it this guy spews this kind of insulting and nonsensical bullshit every time the topic of advantage play comes up?


This is a call for log rolling among AP-ers.
The original poster asked some casino questions, and got some straight answers on what can get a person backed off or 86-ed; indeed, it's the thread's title, and I didn't B.S. him. Then the chorus of the AP advocates jumped in pitching AP as the way to go, and I dissented, taking the position that if it doesn't work out well (and it usually doesn't), then pitching AP may be more a bill of goods than an entrance into a Shangri-La gambling existence.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
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May 5th, 2016 at 2:36:55 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

on ploppies:
Ploppies can't unilaterally be classified as big losers, though addictive gamblers can be.

I would go so far as to say 100% of roulette, baccarat, and crap players play 100% perfect strategy 100% of the time. 95% of Pai Gow Poker players play a decent game, and 31% of UTH players play well, and all seem to have fun. And some win, some lose. Casinos seem to have NO problems or issues with them: they never get backed off, never have a clear resentment or attitude problem towards casinos or their workers, are fine with dealers and floormen, and enjoy their fine comps that never get pulled away from them.


Grossman sells some excellent strategy cards. And of course, the wizardofodds.com consistently provides a fine strategy for the games displayed. Countless resources are available to learn how to play the games well. But counting and all other AP actions are known disallowed casino actions that often result in trouble, so I can't recommend that. (Besides, you guys will do that, recruit and sell the POV).

But then, the question arises "At the casino, are you there to gamble, or to try some maneuver that you know that won't go over too well with them, while of course insisting it's clean play as they take steps to bar you." This is in spite of the clear and overwhelming evidence that it is not, especially from the casino's point of view when the flat bet you, 86 you, or back you off. Call me radical, but I find this scenario staggeringly undeniable. Many are salmons at this point., Casinos have the right to deny play, and may and will.... Which, when it happens, is often met with righteous and indignant resentment and outrage, as to why they won't "just let me play that way I want to." Obviously doesn't work like that, and for valid reason.


I don't get/agree with casino issues concerning progressive patronage.


You'd have to ask them, every case is different in some way. In my years of casino work, I found the vast majority of expulsions were justified and was for the betterment of the place. I generally don't hold in high esteem those who manage to get themselves ejected from a gambling hall.


They obviously didn't want the promo AP'ed by AP-ers. The issue wasn't the promotion, it was the specter of AP shenanigans influencing the promo. I'm friends with a squeaky-clean high roller who stuff truckloads of promo tickets into a barrel with no issue, a Mr. Promo. If AP players are on the casino's persona non-grata list, out they may go.


I don't see Hardy's or McDonald's doing this, unless you're filing your own sippy cups. Apt analogy.


I don't think it matters what you or I think. I see that they truly and generally don't mess with acceptable customers, and there's no shortage of acceptable customers.

It's clear that I don't have either an optimistic view or an ethical respect for AP players. I state my reasons why I think it is just an alluring quagmire for its practitioners in the end. I know a lot of ex-APs who either got burnt out or just crashed and burned as APs who went on to other areas in gaming to great success. For many, I also thought game designers often lead lives of quiet exasperation in “the relentless denial of the fruitless, silly pursuit” while adamantly subscribing, endorsing and defending it. Ahh, Ruined for life. Personally, I just can’t tow the AP or game design recommendation/endorsement line for most. Failure is the actual experience of a majority of both AP players (wannabes) and game designer (wannabes) - and while the door is closing harder than ever at this point. [Yes, take the bar exam/GMAT/dealer school, what have you, instead….] Add to this a sense or an entitlement of the AP, that “the casinos are evil and are denying our constitutional rights in our Robin Hood-like struggle for some extra cash” in justifying the undermining of their businesses services to the general gambling public. I think neither is a fine recommendation for new members.

Over all plop's are big losers when you add them all together.

I guess what you don't seem to understand is that this has been going on for years and happens more frequently than you think where people were NOT doing any maneuvers or doing anything different than the locals, same games, same promos. The only difference was that the AP's only played during specific promotions or good progressives. It's happened at many casinos many times. Station Casinos has been guilty of this multiple times.

I understand your dislike for AP. I can only imagine working on a new table game for years investing lots of time and money perhaps even thinking it's AP proof only to have a team come in and crush and kill it dead in a matter of days. I realize if only plop's and degenerates were allowed to play at the casinos you would have more to work with when designing games.

PG Quote "I generally don't hold in high esteem those who manage to get themselves ejected from a gambling hall."

I guess you don't hold most of the public gaming figures in high regards including The Wizard who's actually attempt to get backed off and possibly 86ed for fun. Mission our administrator.

Let's make a List of people you generally don't hold in high regards. Actually that list is going to be a mile long so I'll just get it started and let others add to it. I probably won't mention all the people who have been tossed out for DI and that sh*t doesn't even work I would love to hear your excuse for that.

Probably 85% of the AP's on this forum.
Ben Affleck the Actor
Bob Dancer
Derren Brown magician (He was just standing in a casino when he got 86ed)
Edward Thorp
Anthony Curtis
Richard Munchkin
Stanford Wong
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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May 5th, 2016 at 7:26:18 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Probably 85% of the AP's on this forum.
Ben Affleck the Actor
Bob Dancer
Derren Brown magician (He was just standing in a casino when he got 86ed)
Edward Thorp
Anthony Curtis
Richard Munchkin
Stanford Wong



add the Wizard, at least I know he has written that he has been stopped from playing [not sure about 86'd]

I'll see if I can get both sides mad at me LOL:

APs: I suspect they are largely exaggerators who mostly fail to really profit, or not enough at least, in the face of true total expenses. Some who seem to do well may have other means of support, like SS, other pension, and retirement funds. I know there are exceptions, and I do admire those with that kind of ability, if not what I suspect their typical morals are. Sort of like admiring a street-smart person [in a way] while knowing you don't want to get too close.

Dan and his ilk: I actually like Dan* but I just don't dig the anti-AP stance from someone who should no longer care. A big reason for that to me is that I don't like in general the effect that bean-counter reasoning has in other aspects of life. And yes, I do think the actions taken against especially non-rule violating APs is originated by this kind of thinking. In my book it is an accounting trick to keep pointing to what the effect of something is on the 'bottom line' ... and that is what they do. Even Teliot had a recent article pointing out that most of the efforts against even card-counters is misplaced, the house spending more money to catch them than they could possibly gain by it. And as Mission points out in an article, that effort is much better spent in tracking and stopping employee cheating.

OK, everybody can hate on me now LOL

*never met him so I guess I mean I like him from his persona that he projects from his writing
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Ibeatyouraces
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May 5th, 2016 at 7:33:18 AM permalink
The whole problem I have is that casinos are a PUBLIC business. They are not Augusta National. You're doors are open to ALL COMERS. No exceptions.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Romes
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May 5th, 2016 at 7:35:15 AM permalink
Hey DiscreteMaths, welcome to the forums.

I've been an AP for about a decade, though not putting full time hours in until the past couple years... I've experienced a lot of what's on your list, or know someone personally who has.

It's not an "every day" thing, but the ironic part is you will for sure 100% guaranteed experience several of these things if/when you start consistently winning. When you show that you're a winner, which casinos often advertise for, then they no longer want your business. That's the shadiest part of casinos, in my opinion... They directly lie to you. They beg you to come play and try to beat their games, and then if you do (WHILST PLAYING BY THEIR RULES) then they do one or several of the things on your list.

I've been shuffled on, flat bet, and kicked out of places... and yes, all of these things can and do happen in OTHER GAMES besides blackjack.

I too agree that in this situation about these topics you should ignore anything PaiGowDan has to say. He's quite ignorant when it comes to AP play and takes a mentality that using your brain is "not the way the game was intended to be played." Thus he calls card counting (using your brain) a 'dirty' way to play.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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May 5th, 2016 at 7:42:28 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

...I too agree that in this situation about these topics you should ignore anything PaiGowDan has to say. He's quite ignorant when it comes to AP play and takes a mentality that using your brain is "not the way the game was intended to be played." Thus he calls card counting (using your brain) a 'dirty' way to play.



But yet he's quite fine designing game rules to (unfairly IMO) give him and the casino an edge and suck money out of your wallet. Someone tell me why that's ok, but I can't have rules to suck money out of his wallet?
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizardofnothing
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May 5th, 2016 at 7:45:26 AM permalink
Dan does. Not have an unbiased opinion/ although I ap I see both sides of it- some things I do not agree with play wise some I do- but dans stance is honestly out of left field and unjustified in my opinion
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
bobbartop
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May 5th, 2016 at 8:09:48 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I have mentioned it before with limited details. I'm sure it sounds worst than it was. Considering I have had much worst happen to me in and outside pool halls.

What actually scared me was I actually got outside during the struggle and they/he got me pinned down near a door that went to the back room and he quietly and deviously said, "Oh you're really going to get it now!" Luckily Management and others were already in there.

It was in the 90's before all the big backroom paydays. Bob N took the case, I'm going to see if I can get a copy of the video and watch my young handsome self in action, perhaps during a team get together during football half time. It was settled for a very low amount considering , I would've gladly gave back for a lifted 86.




I don't understand what the "crime" was. You mentioned playing a dollar progressive. And then I'm picturing Robert De Niro with the buzz saw.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 5th, 2016 at 8:14:18 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

I don't understand what the "crime" was. You mentioned playing a dollar progressive. And then I'm picturing Robert De Niro with the buzz saw.


Casinos hate winners no matter what they say or advertise. Any commercials, ads, or whatever you see with people hooting and hollering while winning are ACTORS and are not the people casinos want on their premises. Eventually there will be enough outrage to change the laws allowing this.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
bobbartop
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May 5th, 2016 at 8:17:21 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf



What made them idiot's is not using it to their advantage. The should have said congratulates we have to change the pays on this. Because we were so generous we have a super nice suite for you, can you do us a small favor and let us feature you and your winnings on our next newsletter and prom mail?

Imagine all the poker players running to the casino looking to score.

Instead they got negative publicly.




You are so right in everything you said in this post. But we're talking about a company that has rivalled the national debt, some real rocket scientists.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
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