TXLouder
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May 7th, 2016 at 9:59:28 AM permalink
Wow. I've successfully resisted the urge to get involved in this thread (and its many clones in the past.) But this pgd post was just too target rich...

I about fell off my chair laughing to read pgd disparaging APs because they have a 'sponging source of revenue.'

Pot. Kettle. Black.

--TX
Paigowdan
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:06:52 AM permalink
Quote: TXLouder

Wow. I've successfully resisted the urge to get involved in this thread (and its many clones in the past.) But this pgd post was just too target rich...

I about fell off my chair laughing to read pgd disparaging APs because they have a 'sponging source of revenue.'

Pot. Kettle. Black.

--TX



A great target-rich post of mine, really. I appreciate those who appreciate my humor, truly! I actually debated the apt bon mot to use.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:08:01 AM permalink
Quote: TXLouder

...I about fell off my chair laughing to read pgd disparaging APs because they have a 'sponging source of revenue.'

Pot. Kettle. Black.

--TX


DING DING DING!!! It's quite fine for him to do it to you but not the other way around.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
TwoFeathersATL
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:09:10 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I wouldn't give a rat's ass about counters. Just keep the table min/max spread reasonable. All 3:2 in my joint.

And just what do you consider reasonable min/max table bet spread? Truly, I'm almost scared to ask. I thought the the 'norm' has historically been 1-100? I may very well be incorrect about that..
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
AxelWolf
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:09:54 AM permalink
Quote: TXLouder

Wow. I've successfully resisted the urge to get involved in this thread (and its many clones in the past.) But this pgd post was just too target rich...

I about fell off my chair laughing to read pgd disparaging APs because they have a 'sponging source of revenue.'

Pot. Kettle. Black.

--TX

Yes My thoughts exactly. AAMOF I wrote something but decided to hold off posting so he could come up with some more outrageous hypocritical statements on the casinos behalf.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizardofnothing
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:11:04 AM permalink
Why not just go to csm- doesn't that solve the entire issue
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
Ibeatyouraces
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:11:43 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

And just what do you consider reasonable min/max table bet spread? Truly, I'm almost scared to ask.


1-10, i.e. $10-$100 is reasonable. When I see a $25 min $25,000 max, that tells me "TRAP"
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ibeatyouraces
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:12:28 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Why not just go to csm- doesn't that solve the entire issue


No.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizardofnothing
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:16:38 AM permalink
You can still count with csm?
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
TwoFeathersATL
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:25:07 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Why not just go to csm- doesn't that solve the entire issue

Just a guess on my part, but card counters don't want to play CSM. And the Casinos like card counters to play. They DO reserve the option of not allowing GOOD card counters with SUFFICIENT bankrolls to play. That's bad for the bottom line. If that sounds discriminatory, it's prolly 'cause it is.

Age, Race, Religion, Sex ( or lack thereof ), have protection under the law.
Bad ( or underfunded ) card counters are accepted. Perceived GOOD, well funded, card counters don't have legal protection. Consider starting a Card Counting Religion, make counting part of the required ceremonial gobble de goo of that religion. Then file for equal protection in the Courts.
Done.

<Jhit, that won't work. They'll take out the BJ tables and put in more slots. Double Jhit!!
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
DiscreteMaths2
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May 7th, 2016 at 11:55:49 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Just a guess on my part, but card counters don't want to play CSM. And the Casinos like card counters to play. They DO reserve the option of not allowing GOOD card counters with SUFFICIENT bankrolls to play. That's bad for the bottom line. If that sounds discriminatory, it's prolly 'cause it is.

Age, Race, Religion, Sex ( or lack thereof ), have protection under the law.
Bad ( or underfunded ) card counters are accepted. Perceived GOOD, well funded, card counters don't have legal protection. Consider starting a Card Counting Religion, make counting part of the required ceremonial gobble de goo of that religion. Then file for equal protection in the Courts.
Done.

<Jhit, that won't work. They'll take out the BJ tables and put in more slots. Double Jhit!!



Seriously though, has anyone ever tried teaching a mentally handicap person to AP and then bring action against the casino under Title III of ADA ? It seems plausible considering how many mental issues doctors are able to diagnose these days.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
TwoFeathersATL
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May 7th, 2016 at 12:13:17 PM permalink
Did he just call me mentally handicapped ;-)
The fact I'm not sure, that fact looms large....
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
MathExtremist
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May 7th, 2016 at 12:20:49 PM permalink
Quote: Joeman

I think this is the best analogy I have heard on this topic so far. They are parallels. Casinos have their HE to make profits, grocery stores have their product margins. Occasionally, through promotions and/or cleverness, customers can legally overcome the HE/product margins within the published rules. There are even nationally broadcast TV shows documenting such folks.

And how does each industry react? Personally, I'm a grocery store ploppy, but still, I have never heard anyone getting backroomed at the Kroger for using coupons!

The difference is variance. The grocery store's product is groceries: they know exactly what their actual profit is every time you buy a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, and there is never any variance in that. The casino's product is money: they only know what the theoretical profit is for every wager but a given amount of action can have wildly variable returns due to randomness and, for games like blackjack or VP, the impact of player strategy. When a grocery store runs a loss-leader promotion, it's always limited in both time and quantity. Casino games aren't limited in either, so if a player is an AP such that a given game is a loss for a casino, it's perfectly reasonable for that casino to restrict that player from too much action. They don't always do it, but that's their choice. It's not a moral judgment, it's a business one. If a casino thinks their overall customer base is going to generate more revenue with a looser game, they'll offer that looser game even if more APs can beat it. If APs start beating it too hard, they'll tighten it up. It's all a question of pricing. Some casino managers are better at it than others, and some are terrible, just like in any other business.

Having a gaming operation doesn't mean you have a successful gaming operation. Washington State, for example, has seen about half of its regulated cardrooms close over the past decade. You might think "they have blackjack tables, they're making millions!" but that's not at all the case.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
AxelWolf
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May 7th, 2016 at 1:01:51 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

. You might think "they have blackjack tables, they're making millions!" but that's not at all the case.

Quote: TheGrimReaper13
The casinos are billion-dollar operations. They didn't get that way by overlooking stuff. Like, "If you beat God, he let you win (the battle)."

Do you really believe that people around here are more knowledgeable about gambling than the people the casinos hire?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TheGrimReaper13
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May 7th, 2016 at 1:06:07 PM permalink
Come on Axel, not all websites make it either. They can't all be banana-split coconut cream-pies with a cherry or two on top. Lol.
Last edited by: TheGrimReaper13 on May 7, 2016
So much bullshit; so little time!
mcallister3200
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May 7th, 2016 at 1:07:54 PM permalink
Individual casinos have the right to bar players as they choose, but a fairly strong case can be made that information sharing via OSN/SIN and the like violate anti trust laws. Casinos colluding together via unauthorized information sharing, excluding a group of players to price fix/increase profits.
Paigowdan
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May 7th, 2016 at 1:08:35 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Consider starting a Card Counting Religion, make counting part of the required ceremonial gobble de goo of that religion. Then file for equal protection in the Courts.
Done.


AP is already a religion....

Altars: (the BJ table supplied by the enemy devil)
Rituals: (+1, -1, 0, 0, 0, cover plays, camouflage, forum societies, etc.)
Scripture: (Beat the Dealer, The Theory of Blackjack, Burning the tables in Las Vegas, etc.)
Various Creeds: ("Where it written "no Card Counting?" "The end of 3:2 shoe games is the end of casinos - and the end of my life," and "It's LEGAL, dammit, and that makes it true and good!")
Communion: the buy-in.
Confirmation: The El Cortez
Confession: "I played Craps."
Last Rites: Being in The Book of Names
Divinity Figure: (Ed Thorpe)
Saints and idols: (Ian Anderson, Peter Griffin, Richard Munchkin, etc.)
Anti-Christs, Apostates, and Infidels who must be slain: (Casino execs, dealers casino security, surveillance workers, and me.)

We're good. File for equal protection.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on May 7, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 1:37:22 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

AP is already a religion....

Altars: (the BJ table supplied by the enemy devil)
Rituals: (+1, -1, 0, 0, 0, cover plays, camouflage, forum societies, etc.)
Scripture: (Beat the Dealer, The Theory of Blackjack, Burning the tables in Las Vegas, etc.)
Various Creeds: ("Where it written "no Card Counting?" "The end of 3:2 shoe games is the end of casinos - and the end of my life," and "It's LEGAL, dammit, and that makes it true and good!")
Communion: the buy-in.
Confirmation: The El Cortez
Confession: "I played Craps."
Last Rites: Being in The Book of Names
Divinity Figure: (Ed Thorpe)
Saints and idols: (Ian Anderson, Peter Griffin, Richard Munchkin, etc.)
Anti-Christs, Apostates, and Infidels who must be slain: (Casino execs, dealers casino security, surveillance workers, and me.)

We're good. File for equal protection.



I would think Ian Anderson and Peter Griffin would be filed under Anti-Christs and Apostates.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 1:43:52 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I would have high limit 3:2 with standard rules under higher surveillance, and 6:5 or variants or CSMs. I would instruct personal to flatter the players as they politely back them off: ďYou just so awesome, and your play is so good! Here, have a Buffet comp and a nice dayÖĒ No Joe Pesci or Robert De Niro with brass knuckles in a back room.



The Robin Hood rationalization: ďIím just fleecing Rich Fat cruel evil bastards who live in mansions so itís righteous. Life isnít fair and Iím taking whatís mine. (There isnít any other effects like reduction in comps or other player benefits or job loses that Iím not responsible for, of course not.) I donít feel guilty.Ē
Now, a part of me also feels that if casino management canít properly and professionally protect their games, they served themselves up, which they did: if itís there for the taking itís gonna get taken, and any moron knows this. I guess if I had a sponging source of revenue (feeding of off card room businesses in this case) Iíd have to justify it with the standard Robin Hood rationalization and that casinos are evil people who made their own beds also. Itís not like being a teacher (ďI taught 35 kids today about the war of 1812ÖĒ) or a cab driver (ďI got 17 people where they needed to goÖĒ) and what have you. Itís ďI took $4,000 from a casino today and it wasnít luck or gambling Ė it was the suits with their heads in there #sses! Awesome Ė and Serves Ďem right!Ē If it makes money and you take the money, youíd be a fool to feel guilty.



Well, yes!

I cannot tell you how many times I enter a casino and see people on their way out, (total strangers with a seeming common bond) say to me upon entering I should try to win back the money they lost and to sock it to the evil pricks who they just made a sizeable donation too. I always reassure them that I fully intend to win back their money for them. Pretty much all the time they laugh, not realizing that is exactly what I will be doing.

Is it Robin Hood? No, because I don't give to the poor (however, since I was poor at one point perhaps I do, its just my pockets that represent the poor.)

I am someone who if I get the wrong amount of change at a restaurant (in my favor) will say, hey, you overpaid me. But at a casino, I simply see them fleecing their customers too much to feel any guilt about taking their money.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 1:51:40 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

The difference is variance. The grocery store's product is groceries: they know exactly what their actual profit is every time you buy a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, and there is never any variance in that. The casino's product is money: they only know what the theoretical profit is for every wager but a given amount of action can have wildly variable returns due to randomness and, for games like blackjack or VP, the impact of player strategy. When a grocery store runs a loss-leader promotion, it's always limited in both time and quantity. Casino games aren't limited in either, so if a player is an AP such that a given game is a loss for a casino, it's perfectly reasonable for that casino to restrict that player from too much action. They don't always do it, but that's their choice. It's not a moral judgment, it's a business one. If a casino thinks their overall customer base is going to generate more revenue with a looser game, they'll offer that looser game even if more APs can beat it. If APs start beating it too hard, they'll tighten it up. It's all a question of pricing. Some casino managers are better at it than others, and some are terrible, just like in any other business.

Having a gaming operation doesn't mean you have a successful gaming operation. Washington State, for example, has seen about half of its regulated cardrooms close over the past decade. You might think "they have blackjack tables, they're making millions!" but that's not at all the case.



Actually I think it is a pretty good analogy.

Supermarkets rarely end their loss-leader promotions. They generally change them for different items but most all of the ones I have ever been too replace them with others and savvy shoppers will always be able to AP a grocery store. Furthermore, grocery stores seem more likely to repeat offers on some type of cycle. I cannot tell you how many times I missed the chef Boyardee specials in my local grocery only to see them again a few weeks later (and yes, I still like my Chef Boyardee, even my children rag on me about that. I don't smoke, drink or take drugs but please don't take away my Chef Boyardee.)

Also, supermarkets have club cards and those cards have rules. How many people here have seen a 2-for-1 special but its limited to only one household per day? And how many people here have broken the rules by coming back an hour later with their wives card and gotten it again? And felt guilty for doing it?

Should the supermarket have security surround you for using another persons shoppers club card, backroom you for breaking their rules, warn you not to shop with them again because when purchasing their products you took advantage by getting the 2-for-1 twice in the same day?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
TheGrimReaper13
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May 7th, 2016 at 1:59:56 PM permalink
Oh, those Evil grocery stores! Did you know that they dress up the old meat, and re-date it? After another couple of weeks, they hide the old hamburger in the new.

Makes you wonder where those McNuggets were.

Last edited by: TheGrimReaper13 on May 7, 2016
So much bullshit; so little time!
AxelWolf
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May 7th, 2016 at 2:12:21 PM permalink
Quote: TheGrimReaper13

Oh, those Evil grocery stores! Did you know that they dress up the old meat, and re-date it? After another couple of weeks, they hide the old hamburger in the new.

Makes you wonder where those McNuggets where.

Sep 13, 2010 - Each year, consumers lose $1 billion to $2.5 billion because of scanner errors.

Imagine how much casino scam players out of, especially with with expired and lost slot tickets.

Breaking news, casino takes bets from dead customer☺.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
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May 7th, 2016 at 2:23:04 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

Seriously though, has anyone ever tried teaching a mentally handicap person to AP and then bring action against the casino under Title III of ADA ? It seems plausible considering how many mental issues doctors are able to diagnose these days.


Seriously? Is this the level AP would stoop to?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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May 7th, 2016 at 2:27:44 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I am someone who if I get the wrong amount of change at a restaurant (in my favor) will say, hey, you overpaid me. But at a casino, I simply see them fleecing their customers too much to feel any guilt about taking their money.


Well you should, because you're taking ploppies' money, as the source of the money, - then the casino has to tighten further up on them because of AP and the money you took. Where do you think it comes from?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 2:41:17 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Well you should, because you're taking ploppies' money, as the source of the money, - then the casino has to tighten further up on them because of AP and the money you took. Where do you think it comes from?



Well, better in my pocket than the millionaire casinos!

Dan, I have spoken to hundreds of gambling consumers in casinos and none I have ever met have said that if they could figure out how to make money consistently from the casinos that they would refuse too because they would feel guilty about taking the money from the pockets of the casinos conglomerates. All the people I see and speak to in the casinos would feel zero guilt and, regardless of their ploppie lack of knowledge, are currently seeking a way to do exactly what all the AP's on here do.

Yes, it is good for us AP's that only a small percentage can do what we achieve because the casinos would go out of business. But trust me, everyone who gambles in a casino (besides you I suppose) has no interest in paying an entertainment fee in the form of HE. They do so under duress because they are hoping to get lucky when the odds are against them.

Show any ploppie how to consistently win and they most certainly will use that knowledge and without guilt.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MB
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May 7th, 2016 at 2:49:17 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I am someone who if I get the wrong amount of change at a restaurant (in my favor) will say, hey, you overpaid me. But at a casino, I simply see them fleecing their customers too much to feel any guilt about taking their money.



Can you clarify what "fleecing their customers" entails? The very fact that casinos offer games like 3:2 BJ, craps, baccarat means that the choice exist for all customers not to get fleeced. If those patrons choose not to play those games, drink too much, make bad bets (ties, hardaways), employ bad strategy (not splitting 88, hitting 14 vs. 3), and use poor money management techniques, I blame the players not the casinos.
Paigowdan
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May 7th, 2016 at 3:06:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Well, better in my pocket than the millionaire casinos!

Dan, I have spoken to hundreds of gambling consumers in casinos and none I have ever met have said that if they could figure out how to make money consistently from the casinos that they would refuse too because they would feel guilty about taking the money from the pockets of the casinos conglomerates. All the people I see and speak to in the casinos would feel zero guilt and, regardless of their ploppie lack of knowledge, are currently seeking a way to do exactly what all the AP's on here do.


We can call them ploppies, we can call them non-scamming players, we can call them dupes, all from anyone's point of view. Let's call them regular players.
I think the average person would take a free lunch and would not care in the least about being parasitic against a business if it meant more personal money. I think more people would AP if they had the talent, inclination, and skill set to do so. The fact that the average person is not a saint, and quite often a bit of a low life if push came to shove or if it meant more cold hard cash doesn't meant that "what they would do" would make any sort of a good endorsement.

Quote: D.Oz

Yes, it is good for us AP's that only a small percentage can do what we achieve because the casinos would go out of business. But trust me, everyone who gambles in a casino (besides you I suppose) has no interest in paying an entertainment fee in the form of HE. They do so under duress because they are hoping to get lucky when the odds are against them.


Regular players have no interest in paying an entertainment fee, and feel the same way about paying for the movies or bowling or what have you. They know it's there. But they are not under duress - that's total B.S. - anymore they're under duress at the bowling alley, buffet, or cinema. You pay to play, and if you try to avoid that (and you can with skill), you're not paying your fair share.



Quote: DOz

Show any ploppie how to consistently win and they most certainly will use that knowledge and without guilt.


Sh*t Yeah. Like I said, the average Joe would grab the cash and make a stash in a second if he could. He'd also screw his wife's sister (and mother if she's young enough), get free gas, and whatever else have you, if it is possible to get away with and if offered, and if it weren't locked down.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MathExtremist
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May 7th, 2016 at 3:07:45 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: TheGrimReaper13
The casinos are billion-dollar operations. They didn't get that way by overlooking stuff. Like, "If you beat God, he let you win (the battle)."

Do you really believe that people around here are more knowledgeable about gambling than the people the casinos hire?

Not all of them, but a handful are. You already know who they are, or at least many of them. But don't fall into the trap of believing that every casino floor employee is a rocket scientist either. In many cases, especially remote tribal casinos operated by members, there simply isn't any effective way to provide sufficient training for enough people.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 3:09:51 PM permalink
Quote: MB

Can you clarify what "fleecing their customers" entails? The very fact that casinos offer games like 3:2 BJ, craps, baccarat means that the choice exist for all customers not to get fleeced. If those patrons choose not to play those games, drink too much, make bad bets (ties, hardaways), employ bad strategy (not splitting 88, hitting 14 vs. 3), and use poor money management techniques, I blame the players not the casinos.



It really comes down to how casinos advertise to their clientele.

Disney advertises you will have a fun family experience. Yes, it damages your pocket book but at the end of the day, they generally deliver.

Casinos advertise you should come to "the winners circle" where "winners play" and "you have your chance at winning thousands" when in reality your chances in the long run are actually near zero and the majority of customers do not leave satisfied but destitute.

If a casino advertised honestly "Come to the losers circle" where "losers play" and "you have almost no chance of beating us but we like your patronage anyway" perhaps I would feel differently.

People choose whether to smoke cigarettes but tobacco companies are also guilty as sin.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 3:13:17 PM permalink
Paigowdan said"
"Sh*t Yeah. Like I said, the average Joe would grab the cash and make a stash in a second if he could. He'd also screw his wife's sister (and mother if she's young enough), get free gas, and whatever else have you, if it is possible to get away with and if offered, and if it weren't locked down."

Well, in that case I have much better morals than the average Joe. I actually would not screw my wife's sister and mother.

EDIT: Maybe one of her best friends if she was hot enough!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Paigowdan
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May 7th, 2016 at 3:16:11 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Well, in that case I have much better morals than the average Joe. I actually would not screw my wife's sister and mother.


You do indeed. You would even return an overpayment in change of a purchase, except of course from an evil casino.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 3:25:38 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

You do indeed. You would even return an overpayment in change of a purchase, except of course from an evil casino.



Good. I am glad we can finally agree on something.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MB
MB
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May 7th, 2016 at 3:36:18 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

It really comes down to how casinos advertise to their clientele.

Disney advertises you will have a fun family experience. Yes, it damages your pocket book but at the end of the day, they generally deliver.

Casinos advertise you should come to "the winners circle" where "winners play" and "you have your chance at winning thousands" when in reality your chances in the long run are actually near zero and the majority of customers do not leave satisfied but destitute.

If a casino advertised honestly "Come to the losers circle" where "losers play" and "you have almost no chance of beating us but we like your patronage anyway" perhaps I would feel differently.

People choose whether to smoke cigarettes but tobacco companies are also guilty as sin.



These are fair points. The only observation I have is about "winning thousands". Many people come with unrealistic expectations about turning $100 into $1000. Hopefully, if people were honest with themselves, they would estimate their chances at no better than 10%. An average person that doesn't know the math probably has a much lower probability (~2-3%). If that person dumps $100 into a slot machine (not VP), their odds likely fall below 1%.

I see ploppies win thousands all the time. They're just betting $300-$500 hand on BJ.
AxelWolf
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May 7th, 2016 at 5:10:00 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

.

Explain how places like Dotty's has anything to do with actual entertainment.

It's nothing but a predatory place period. Cheap cigarettes and free booze to get you in the door gambling whatever extra money locals may have.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
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May 7th, 2016 at 5:13:51 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Explain how places like Dotty's has anything to do with actual entertainment.

It's nothing but a predatory place period. Cheap cigarettes and free booze to get you in the door gambling whatever extra money locals may have.


And you sit at a machine and you play slots all day with cheap booze & cigs.
Giving them what they want. You cannot tell these people "get a life." I see them at the 7-11 also, holding the flush draw, cigarette dangling, what can I tell ya.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MathExtremist
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May 7th, 2016 at 5:19:16 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Explain how places like Dotty's has anything to do with actual entertainment.

It's nothing but a predatory place period. Cheap cigarettes and free booze to get you in the door gambling whatever extra money locals may have.

It's all in the eye of the beholder:

Quote: LV Sun Article

At Dottyís, you wonít find any cocktail servers wearing short skirts or low-cut tops, or loud dance music commonly played in some of the townís high-energy casinos. Nor will you see other casino hallmarks such as flashy, themed slots, blinking jackpot displays or big signs advertising buffet discounts, nightclub events or gambling offers.

You will hear Fleetwood Mac-like music that is soothing enough to discourage bumping and grinding. Instead of TVs blaring sports or the news, walls are lined with curio shelves filled with knickknacks found across America: cow-shaped cookie jars, big-eyed turtles wearing straw hats, smiling frogs sitting on benches, skinny bunny rabbits wearing shorts and stuffed dolls with gingham dresses and buttons for eyes. Further deterring hard drinking are wallpaper borders featuring kitchen crockery and pictures of children and flowers.

ďItís relaxing, not like the sensory overload you get in casinos,Ē Lolo Odierna said.

The 20-something mom has just dropped off her children at her motherís house down the street and is taking a break with a soda in front of a keno machine. Odierna said she has little use for casinos after discovering Dottyís and its ďfamilyĒ atmosphere.

ďBoisterous or crazy people arenít tolerated. I feel safe here,Ē she said.


http://lasvegassun.com/news/2011/mar/29/dottys-tavern-big-casinos-say-no/
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
TheGrimReaper13
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May 7th, 2016 at 5:32:23 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

It's all in the eye of the beholder:
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2011/mar/29/dottys-tavern-big-casinos-say-no/


And some people behold more than others.
So much bullshit; so little time!
mcallister3200
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May 7th, 2016 at 6:08:23 PM permalink
I don't know how anyone can go into a Dotty's in LV and not identify 90% of the clientele as problem gamblers within 5 minutes.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 7th, 2016 at 6:41:23 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

I don't know how anyone can go into a Dotty's in LV and not identify 90% of the clientele as problem gamblers within 5 minutes.



Bob Dancer claims to play 25 coin $5 ($125 a hand) NSUD there.

www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2016/0412.cfm
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
ernestmiddle
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:04:01 PM permalink
Never read about anybody embezzling to play at Dotty's.
blackhole
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:32:16 PM permalink
Reading through threads like this one is a perfect chance to expose the myths of the AP.

Yes, the MIT team and numerous other counters had a good run for 20 years, but since early 2000 to the current; casinos are now able to pick off and rid APís like target practice with all games.

The same goes today for online casinos. If anyone thinks they could beat any online casino today for any period of time is living a bigger pipe dream then B&M APís.

Anyone could hit a casino with a life changing win. But, the same groups of people here talk over and over again about your gifted mathematical genius that enables you to constantly get away with beating the games.

I know in your world of gambling these conversations and feather fluffing is all that really matters to you, and must help you continue on your path to eventual destruction.

Look at one of your top posters here AXELWOLF. This guy posted in 4 years 10K posts. Thatís 2,500 posts a year, trying to convince everyone that he is the master of APís. This guy is always ahead of every opportunity that shows it face in any casino, B&M or online. Of course he canít reveal any of his plays, because he and the special group of people here are smarter than most everyone else that ever gambled. You guys should only realize how ridiculous all your posts look to most people that stumble onto this site, and others like it.

Whatís said here is only important to the same group or club of people here that feed off of each others nonsense.

If you like to gamble there is nothing wrong with learning how to get the most bangs for your buck. But, to base your future on the flip of an unknown card or on the hopes of freezing the RNG on that precise millisecond is absurd to even consider.

Yea, I know, go ahead and fire away with the same ole justifications. Iím sure my reality post is not wanted here and Iíll be banned.

Oh yea, I already know that I am a losing degenerate gambler, so no need to carry on about it.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:43:43 PM permalink
This should be fun....
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:45:07 PM permalink
Quote: blackhole

Reading through threads like this one is a perfect chance to expose the myths of the AP.

Yes, the MIT team and numerous other counters had a good run for 20 years, but since early 2000 to the current; casinos are now able to pick off and rid APís like target practice with all games.

The same goes today for online casinos. If anyone thinks they could beat any online casino today for any period of time is living a bigger pipe dream then B&M APís.

Anyone could hit a casino with a life changing win. But, the same groups of people here talk over and over again about your gifted mathematical genius that enables you to constantly get away with beating the games.

I know in your world of gambling these conversations and feather fluffing is all that really matters to you, and must help you continue on your path to eventual destruction.

Look at one of your top posters here AXELWOLF. This guy posted in 4 years 10K posts. Thatís 2,500 posts a year, trying to convince everyone that he is the master of APís. This guy is always ahead of every opportunity that shows it face in any casino, B&M or online. Of course he canít reveal any of his plays, because he and the special group of people here are smarter than most everyone else that ever gambled. You guys should only realize how ridiculous all your posts look to most people that stumble onto this site, and others like it.

Whatís said here is only important to the same group or club of people here that feed off of each others nonsense.

If you like to gamble there is nothing wrong with learning how to get the most bangs for your buck. But, to base your future on the flip of an unknown card or on the hopes of freezing the RNG on that precise millisecond is absurd to even consider.

Yea, I know, go ahead and fire away with the same ole justifications. Iím sure my reality post is not wanted here and Iíll be banned.

Oh yea, I already know that I am a losing degenerate gambler, so no need to carry on about it.



If it makes you feel better when you lose money gambling to think that no one else can win then go right ahead.

Personally, we AP's need everyone to be like you. The more people don't believe we are winning, the longer we will make our fortunes.

Welcome to the forum.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:49:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

...Welcome to the forum.



I'm certain he's been here before.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
TomG
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:52:27 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Now, a part of me also feels that if casino management canít properly and professionally protect their games, they served themselves up, which they did: if itís there for the taking itís gonna get taken, and any moron knows this.



They can protect themselves against all Advantage Play if they wanted to. Any casino could eliminate the ability for any player to make any bet with an edge today. They just choose not to do so. Because they make that choice, they are making it clear to everyone in the world (except for one person) that they are perfectly fine with it and welcome it.
blackhole
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:52:31 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

If it makes you feel better when you lose money gambling to think that no one else can win then go right ahead.

Personally, we AP's need everyone to be like you. The more people don't believe we are winning, the longer we will make our fortunes.

Welcome to the forum.



How did you choose this profession to make your fortune? Is this a gift you must be born with, or were you taught by some other gifted talent? When did you realize this was a smart career choice for you and your family's future?
AxelWolf
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:54:58 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

And you sit at a machine and you play slots all day with cheap booze & cigs.
Giving them what they want. You cannot tell these people "get a life." I see them at the 7-11 also, holding the flush draw, cigarette dangling, what can I tell ya.

I'm tired of people (actually it's just you) trying to compare casinos to figgin Disneyland. The next thing you know you'll be comparing it to a church(Actually church is probably worst in some cases).

You claim casinos are reasonable entertainment destinations providing a service. That's complete BULL CRAP!
They are there to suck as much money out of their customers pockets as much possible.

CASINOS SPONGE OFF PEOPLE a million times more than AP's sponge off the casinos.
They legally steal money(see how many unclaimed tickets people get screwed out of), they have been known to cheat people, hurt people, dupe people, hustle people, intentionally break laws and the list goes on.

I have pointed out many things about casinos that are in fact evil. I don't really want to again, because I would be here all day and I would have to listen to your lame attempt at defending them and their dirty deeds.
No, I do NOT think casinos are evil as much as you would like to think. I absolutely DO love casinos. But I wouldn't encourage my friends and family to use them as a good source of gambling entertainment unless they had an advantage or close to it, AND I was certain they wouldn't ever get the gambling bug. Just like I wouldn't suggest anyone use crack for entertainment.

Casino's have many, many flaws and bad practices. They are not as innocent as you're claiming.
Quote: By BRETT PULLEY

Sometimes the requests are unreasonable or illegal, like procuring prostitutes or drugs, or break local gaming regulations, like setting up a private room for gambling. ''We've had people ask for things that we just won't do,'' said Mr. Juliano, the president of Caesars Atlantic City. But one executive at a major casino in Las Vegas recounted an occasion in recent weeks when hotel employees had to devise a system of code words to deliver dozens of prostitutes to the suite of one high roller. As the women arrived, ''if he didn't like them, he'd give them $300 and send them away,'' said the executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. ''At one point, he had 30 women in his suite at one time.''

There's a multitude of stories like this I'll post some interesting up later.

I'm fairly certain Advantage Players are not the reason for 6:5 Blackjack and 6/5 JOB. There's absolutely ZERO reason to have $5 6/5 JOB. That decision has/had NOTHING to do with AP's. I guarantee you... if all advantage players suddenly disappeared the casinos wouldn't suddenly get rid of 6//5 Video Poker.

6:5 Blackjack was probably originally suggested by some Darksider. The Casino's seen a short term rise in profits and got greedy.

If you truly believe 6:5 is directly related to AP's then the casinos and whomever is suggesting, advocating and allowing it should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. Basically THEY have made a decision to prey on and rape the uneducated, ignorant, weak and blind customers they so desperately need, just to foil AP's. It's like shaving your wife's hair off because some handsome, smart guy looked at her, just to teach him a lesson and make sure he doesn't look at her anymore.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:55:35 PM permalink
Quote: blackhole

How did you choose this profession to make your fortune? Is this a gift you must be born with, or were you taught by some other gifted talent? When did you realize this was a smart career choice for you and your family's future?



The gift was my intelligence to be able to outsmart the casinos so I guess I was born with it.

Self-taught as far as AP goes.

It became a smart career choice when I began making more money than my attorney makes (and yes, my attorney makes a lot of money)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
gordonm888
Administrator
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May 7th, 2016 at 8:34:43 PM permalink
I'll just chip in with two thoughts.

First, I really admire DarkOz for his ability to "live the dream" and make a living as an AP. Guys like him are the reason I occasionally hang out in this forum.

But I also agree with BlackHole when he says that most of the opportunities for an AP dried up 15 years ago. The world has changed and casino games have matured. In 2016, the AP opportunities are in fantasy sports betting - FanDuel and DraftKings.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Wizardofnothing
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May 7th, 2016 at 8:49:29 PM permalink
I think most in this forum will disagree that the good ap opportunity dried up/ I certainly will disagree
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
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