Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2016 at 7:16:39 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

As someone who witnessed an industry that had been around since the beginning of the turn of the century (namely motion picture film laboratories) disappear within the space of about five years, I don't believe anyone's job or income is set in stone.


This caught my eye when I looked up Woody Allen's new film Café Society. At the age of 80, this will be Allen's very first digitally-shot film. He was dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming. And knowing that nothing beats the warmth of film stock.

Quote: darkoz

If the reason non-AP's who are capable of it, choose to go into other areas of work for job security, they are highly likely to find that AP is more stable than their own jobs in todays market.


With 6:5 BJ and CSMs advancing, and surveillance technology progressing, this isn't saying all that much. It wasn't all that stable a while ago, a lot of talent got burnt out. Forgive me, but I don't see AP-ing a stable career, or even a bona-fide career.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizardofnothing
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May 10th, 2016 at 7:23:43 PM permalink
That's like saying buying storage units is not a career or flipping houses
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Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2016 at 7:51:02 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

That's like saying buying storage units is not a career or flipping houses


No it isn't.
You can't get flat-betted or 86-ed from your source of income when purchasing storage units or dabbling in real estate, so re-selling homes (or storage unit contents) might be more secure in that way. Re-selling can be an occupation, a broker.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizardofnothing
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May 10th, 2016 at 7:54:08 PM permalink
Not true, they can exclude you from auctions
I have a friend that is a huge car buyer - 100s a week and he was backed off of one auction because people stopped coming because he bought everything every week and people stopped showing up so in essence he was backed off by pulling an ap move- buy every car every week- others stop going and then you get cars cheaper since no one else there
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Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2016 at 8:02:39 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Not true, they can exclude you from auctions
I have a friend that is a huge car buyer - 100s a week and he was backed off of one auction because people stopped coming because he bought everything every week and people stopped showing up so in essence he was backed off by pulling an ap move- buy every car every week- others stop going and then you get cars cheaper since no one else there


I see.
Your friend.... "in essence he was backed off by pulling an AP move," as you say, where "others stopped going and then you get cars cheaper since no one else there."

I guess they did not like him running his personal business off of the backs of the auction house business, ("AP-ing" as you put it) - so the auction house stopped him. Maybe your friend should open up his own auction house/casino. I'm sure if someone else did such a maneuver on him, he'd say "WTH!" and put a stop to it, too.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
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May 10th, 2016 at 9:36:31 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

This caught my eye when I looked up Woody Allen's new film Café Society. At the age of 80, this will be Allen's very first digitally-shot film. He was dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming. And knowing that nothing beats the warmth of film stock.


With 6:5 BJ and CSMs advancing, and surveillance technology progressing, this isn't saying all that much. It wasn't all that stable a while ago, a lot of talent got burnt out. Forgive me, but I don't see AP-ing a stable career, or even a bona-fide career.

AP is alive and well. but I don't see table game making as a stable career, or even a bona-fide career.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2016 at 10:30:10 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

AP is alive and well. but I don't see table game making as a stable career, or even a bona-fide career.


Neither do I; in fact, it is much harder to become a successful table games designer than it is to become an advantage player. Now, if you're trying to belittle my source of income (and I believe you are), then may I disappoint you by saying I agree with you. For most, it is not a stable "Career" option at all, and is an undertaking fraught with risk suitable only for the intrepid.

I would go so far as to say that that a successful or stable career as game designer is generally not in the cards for the vast majority of those who wish to take it up, and for those who do, quite a bit of study is required, so I would heartily agree with you on this. It is also much harder to become a doctor than to become an AP, much harder to get into Harvard than to become an AP, and much harder to become a successful screenwriter than to become an AP, etc. (though some MIT and Ivy League students went down that AP path, often burning out in the end. I'm sure their families give them grief: "You could have been a Cardiologist, a Publisher, or a mathematician, but NOOooo....")

With the number of games I've been involved with for distributors as well as for my own company, I do feel a bit of satisfaction seeing my handiwork being enjoyed by legions of players. The way I see it, I have given to the gambling public, not taken. Unless you want to include and take some credit for 6:5 BJ and CSMs advancement, that you may do.

And as easy or stable career, it is not, but as a bona fide career, it sure is, - and in a way that counting cards would never be in this business - that is, IF you make it.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on May 10, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 10th, 2016 at 10:36:00 PM permalink
You can only change poker and blackjack rules around and betting scenes so many times. Time to come up with new concepts.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2016 at 10:43:09 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

You can only change poker and blackjack rules around and betting scenes so many times. Time to come up with new concepts.


That's right, and why it is that much harder to achieve with each passing day.

While there are a multiple of things that can be done with cards and dice, relatively few of them provide any real improvement in terms of gambling or game-play juice, with fewer to discover of that value with each passing day. The door is closing a bit here, too.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
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May 10th, 2016 at 11:34:26 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Neither do I; in fact, it is much harder to become a successful table games designer than it is to become an advantage player. Now, if you're trying to belittle my source of income (and I believe you are), then may I disappoint you by saying I agree with you. For most, it is not a stable "Career" option at all, and is an undertaking fraught with risk suitable only for the intrepid.

I would go so far as to say that that a successful or stable career as game designer is generally not in the cards for the vast majority of those who wish to take it up, and for those who do, quite a bit of study is required, so I would heartily agree with you on this. It is also much harder to become a doctor than to become an AP, much harder to get into Harvard than to become an AP, and much harder to become a successful screenwriter than to become an AP, etc. (though some MIT and Ivy League students went down that AP path, often burning out in the end. I'm sure their families give them grief: "You could have been a Cardiologist, a Publisher, or a mathematician, but NOOooo....")

With the number of games I've been involved with for distributors as well as for my own company, I do feel a bit of satisfaction seeing my handiwork being enjoyed by legions of players. The way I see it, I have given to the gambling public, not taken. Unless you want to include and take some credit for 6:5 BJ and CSMs advancement, that you may do.

And as easy or stable career, it is not, but as a bona fide career, it sure is, - and in a way that counting cards would never be in this business - that is, IF you make it.

I was not trying to belittle you. I actually know very little about game design, because I'm not one, I only know what I think I know and have to rely on rumors.
And that was my point. You are not an AP and you don't know enough to comment on it really.

One door closes and another opens. Some AP's learn to adjust(just like a company learns to adjust and sell different products).

For all you know... 7 years from now skillgaming will everywhere, including table games. Look what happen with online poker and the amazing amount of money people made, and incredible amount guys made from Online casinos, that's all advantage play (Someone mentioned there was big money in Fantasy sports.)

People thought AP was over in about 2004 or so, many people got out, some AP's just shifted their focus, even some well known poker players were once machine and blackjack players.

At some point things picked up with AP in general but it was just different. Sometimes it takes a while to adjust and learn different things, sometimes you're to late.

I still see some of the old AP methods and plays coming up. Casino's will always make mistakes games will always be vulnerable.

At one point counting and other table games got tough in Vegas, AP's simply went to different states.

There's many casinos and more opening all the time, there's many states, there's different countries there's tons of casino competition.

Honestly Dan, I only think you know a small fraction what advantage play is available and possible.

Not even the T Eliot's and whatever public gambling authorities know. Not even the best AP knows all the plays available. There's stuff you haven't even heard of and probably never will.

FYI. I don't disrespect/dislike you or what you do. I'm sure you're brilliant at it.
I don't agree with much of what you say and some (most?) of your views on gambling.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
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May 11th, 2016 at 8:15:58 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

You [Dan] are not an AP and you don't know enough to comment on it really.


I was making a couple of comments along the lines of:
1. That any income based on techniques to skim or re-appropriate the revenue of other businesses is ultimately vulnerable to advances in loss prevention techniques.
2. That any income based on techniques to skim or re-appropriate the revenue of other businesses may be considered non-contributory or parasitic actions, as derogatory as that sounds.
3. That any income based on techniques to skim or re-appropriate the revenue of other businesses may be intellectually or emotionally be rationalized by painting the targeted business as evil, parasitic or predatory (which is just the projection of the skimmer's own behavior - most civilians view casinos as businesses who provide gaming services and its workers are regular working people). AP is also justified by claiming it as "skills based" (no argument here), - while ostensibly patronizing casinos as false customers. The two arguments here are "don't look at me - it's the people I'm skimming from who are really the predators," and "my efforts require skill, so that makes what I do on the up-and-up."
4. I am not sympathetic to casino operators on this either. If a person or family gets burgled because of cheap locks, I'm very sympathetic to them because that is "still wrong." But if a casino operator has its head in its butt on game protection and gets hit, I view them as both incompetent and partners (and not victims) in the event.
The comment that "Well, you don't know enough on AP to comment on it, really" is simply pooh-poohing of a dissenting opinion. I know enough about the gaming business to make these comments.

Quote: AxelWolf

One door closes and another opens. Some AP's learn to adjust (just like a company learns to adjust and sell different products).


Yes and No, Such things as new AP opportunities, and cover and camouflage for existing methods can extend AP practices as long as there are vulnerable games offered and weak loss prevention. I believe that for some that AP becomes a bit all encompassing as a focus, and some wider "life diversity" is lost for some. Other ex-AP-ers go into sanctioned game protection, or general math and gaming work, or publishing, etc., to diversify. I diversifed by becoming involved in several non-gaming endeavors.

Quote: AxelWolf

For all you know... 7 years from now skillgaming will everywhere, including table games.


One can argue that skill-based table play, both sanctioned and unsanctioned, has been around as long as card decks have been in existence.

Quote: AxelWolf

People thought AP was over in about 2004 or so, many people got out, some AP's just shifted their focus, even some well known poker players were once machine and blackjack players.


I certainly don't think AP is over, but that a transition in that direction is in slow effect.

Quote: AxelWolf

At some point things picked up with AP in general but it was just different. Sometimes it takes a while to adjust and learn different things, sometimes you're to late.
I still see some of the old AP methods and plays coming up. Casino's will always make mistakes games will always be vulnerable.


They'll never get it quite right. Many casino execs are slow learners.

Quote: AW

At one point counting and other table games got tough in Vegas, AP's simply went to different states.


If you have to travel to find opportunities, the argument can be made that your services are not appreciated by many casinos, because there sure are a lot of casinos in Las Vegas. If you have an occupation where your skills and services have to be completely unknown to your business partner, then traveling may be required.

Quote: AW

Honestly Dan, I only think you know a small fraction what advantage play is available and possible.


I agree. Sure.

Quote: AW

Not even the T Eliot's and whatever public gambling authorities know. Not even the best AP knows all the plays available. There's stuff you haven't even heard of and probably never will.


If you're on this particular quest, then you may discover many wonderful AP techniques that I and many others can only dream of, and will never be privy to.

Quote: AW

FYI. I don't disrespect/dislike you or what you do. I'm sure you're brilliant at it.
I don't agree with much of what you say and some (most?) of your views on gambling.


We don't have to agree, no requirement on that. If we agreed with each other, we both would probably feel queasy.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MathExtremist
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May 11th, 2016 at 8:44:14 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Neither do I; in fact, it is much harder to become a successful table games designer than it is to become an advantage player. Now, if you're trying to belittle my source of income (and I believe you are), then may I disappoint you by saying I agree with you. For most, it is not a stable "Career" option at all, and is an undertaking fraught with risk suitable only for the intrepid.

I would go so far as to say that that a successful or stable career as game designer is generally not in the cards for the vast majority of those who wish to take it up, and for those who do, quite a bit of study is required, so I would heartily agree with you on this. It is also much harder to become a doctor than to become an AP, much harder to get into Harvard than to become an AP, and much harder to become a successful screenwriter than to become an AP, etc. (though some MIT and Ivy League students went down that AP path, often burning out in the end. I'm sure their families give them grief: "You could have been a Cardiologist, a Publisher, or a mathematician, but NOOooo....")
...
And as easy or stable career, it is not, but as a bona fide career, it sure is, - and in a way that counting cards would never be in this business - that is, IF you make it.

It's important to look at the size of the market, though. It might be easier to be an AP than a doctor or Harvard grad, but there are a lot more doctors and Harvard grads than APs. So difficulty isn't a good metric. In fact, when examining the aggregate annual earnings of those groups, I'd guess they're ranked like this (from largest to smallest):

a) Harvard grads
b) Doctors
c) APs
d) Casino table game designers

I put Harvard grads above doctors because there are a lot of Harvard grads in finance, e.g., Jamie Dimon and his $20M+ salary. But I also put APs above game designers, because there are likely fewer than two dozen individual table game designers earning more than $10k/year from their games, and we're two of them. But there are lots of APs who can earn that even part time.

As to the legitimacy of the endeavor, there's nothing wrong with hustling as long as it's not illegal. Card counting and other AP moves are no different than exploiting pricing fluctuations in other markets. You've seen that "super-couponing" craze, where coupon-clippers spend a week amassing different coupons and then go buy a truckload of groceries for $3.83? That's the same sort of hustling. It's not what the store intended, and it's easy to consider it an abuse of the store's pricing structure, but it's not illegal. And if you want to spend 30 hours a week clipping coupons so you can buy $30,000 of groceries per year for $1000, well, that's a better return on time than a lot of people get by working and paying income taxes on their wages.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paigowdan
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May 11th, 2016 at 9:29:05 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

It's important to look at the size of the market, though. It might be easier to be an AP than a doctor or Harvard grad, but there are a lot more doctors and Harvard grads than APs. So difficulty isn't a good metric. In fact, when examining the aggregate annual earnings of those groups, I'd guess they're ranked like this (from largest to smallest):

a) Harvard grads
b) Doctors
c) APs
d) Casino table game designers

I put Harvard grads above doctors because there are a lot of Harvard grads in finance, e.g., Jamie Dimon and his $20M+ salary. But I also put APs above game designers, because there are likely fewer than two dozen individual table game designers earning more than $10k/year from their games, and we're two of them. But there are lots of APs who can earn that even part time.


True. But ignoring the size of the field, and looking at the ratio of attempts to successes (# of successes / # of attempters) in any of these endeavors, the success rate is low. Look at another criterion - utility: doctors and the educated are needed for society, game designers and APs less so/not so, with AP perhaps contributing the least for others' genuine benefit in terms of utility; they drive up costs through loses, - but do provide game protection employment. (You can call this the UNICEF test). Field size is related to its utility to society and business, and there isn't a life and death critical need on a wide scale for AP or new game amusements as much as there is for medical doctors. I will argue that providing games for human recreation is somewhat higher than skimming these games for personal gain.

Quote: ME

As to the legitimacy of the endeavor, there's nothing wrong with hustling as long as it's not illegal.


Well, only in the sense that there's nothing illegal about something that happens to be not illegal. However, that does not mean it does not have negative cost, don't overlook this. AP or any hustling has its costs to others, in terms of poorer conditions for others, and less return for employees and owners, etc. There's no free lunch in the sense that someone pays, and the attitude that "as long as that someone is not me" isn't truly kosher.

Quote: ME

Card counting and other AP moves are no different than exploiting pricing fluctuations in other markets.


And it has its negative effects, too. Capitalism without greed is an impossibility, but neither is greed or hustling always praise-worthy. The people behind the CDO debacle of ten years ago were no saints. A lot of people ended up holding the bag.

Quote: ME

You've seen that "super-couponing" craze, where coupon-clippers spend a week amassing different coupons and then go buy a truckload of groceries for $3.83? That's the same sort of hustling. It's not what the store intended, and it's easy to consider it an abuse of the store's pricing structure, but it's not illegal. And if you want to spend 30 hours a week clipping coupons so you can buy $30,000 of groceries per year for $1000, well, that's a better return on time than a lot of people get by working and paying income taxes on their wages.


True. But it's an un-admirable skill, almost a compulsion quest as is some cases (and of AP, too), and vulnerable to the tightening or the elimination of coupon offers and AP conditions, in which case real "goods and services" employment would have merit and more security.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Hunterhill
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May 11th, 2016 at 9:39:00 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

It might be, it will depend on the laws of the given jurisdiction. From the standpoint of public policy, what's the difference between a player taking advantage of lax procedure by edge sorting and a player taking advantage of lax procedure by thumb nicking?

Does anyone know if edge sorting has been prosecuted in Nevada, regardless of whether the dealer was in on it or otherwise?


The difference is the player is not altering the card when it is edge sorted.Yes he is changing the orientation sometimes,sometimes the card is already the right way so in essence the player is doing nothing.The dealer is also changing the orientation every time they pitch the card.Nicking the card is obviously not the same.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
AxelWolf
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May 11th, 2016 at 9:52:18 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

True. But ignoring the size of the field, and looking at the ratio of attempts to successes (# of successes / # of attempters) in any of these endeavors, the success rate is low. Look at another criterion - utility: doctors and the educated are needed for society, game designers and APs less so/not so, with AP perhaps contributing the least for others' genuine benefit in terms of utility; they drive up costs through loses, - but do provide game protection employment. (You can call this the UNICEF test). Field size is related to its utility to society and business, and there isn't a life and death critical need on a wide scale for AP or new game amusements as much as there is for medical doctors. I will argue that providing games for human recreation is somewhat higher than skimming these games for personal gain.


Well, only in the sense that there's nothing illegal about something that happens to be not illegal. However, that does not mean it does not have negative cost, don't overlook this. AP or any hustling has its costs to others, in terms of poorer conditions for others, and less return for employees and owners, etc. There's no free lunch in the sense that someone pays, and the attitude that "as long as that someone is not me" isn't truly kosher.


And it has its negative effects, too. Capitalism without greed is an impossibility, but neither is greed or hustling always praise-worthy. The people behind the CDO debacle of ten years ago were no saints. A lot of people ended up holding the bag.


True. But it's an un-admirable skill, almost a compulsion quest as is some cases (and of AP, too), and vulnerable to the tightening or the elimination of coupon offers and AP conditions, in which case real employment would have merit.

Dan do you realize there are Doctors, lawyer's and yes I even know a judge that worked for other's on AP.

The funny thing is the Doctors and other people in respected professions oftentimes wish they were themselves professional gamblers.

FYI. People shouldn't automatically get respect because of their profession.


I have a Doctor who's always asking me where the good deals and promotions are and what he should play. I know he played the Downtown grand liss rebate and won. He probably makes more in a day than he won but he seemed to be much more exciting about the small amount he did make. I'm certain he lurks on this site occasionally. I have printed out strategy cards for various games. He tells me about his wins. I think he also bests the 1/2 parlays as well.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MathExtremist
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May 11th, 2016 at 10:07:38 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

The difference is the player is not altering the card when it is edge sorted.Yes he is changing the orientation sometimes,sometimes the card is already the right way so in essence the player is doing nothing.The dealer is also changing the orientation every time they pitch the card.Nicking the card is obviously not the same.

It's not clear to me that altering the card itself is required to violate the statute. There are lots of ways to cheat that don't involve physically defacing gaming equipment, and more importantly there are many phrases in NRS 465 which would appear to cover affirmative acts like edge sorting. For example, it's one thing to glance at a hole card shown by a sloppy dealer. It's another to actively manipulate a dealer into being sloppy so you can see their hole card. Sliding the dice has never been prosecuted by itself, but intentionally concealing a slide was held to be illegal in Nevada (Skipper v. State) under NRS 465.

My instinct is that edge sorting would fall under the latter category, of intentionally manipulating the game to your benefit, but that's why I asked whether it's ever been prosecuted in Nevada.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paigowdan
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May 11th, 2016 at 10:08:55 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

[Dan do you realize there are Doctors, lawyer's and yes I even know a judge that worked for other's on AP.


I'm certain of it. Everybody's got their affectations, whether it's gambling or AP or booze or coke or whatever, regardless of occupation.

Quote: AW

The funny thing is the Doctors and other people in respected professions oftentimes wish they were themselves professional gamblers.


Sure. There's a great romanticism to it, not unlike the Nick Pileggi/Martin Scorsese portrayals of Mafia Gangsters. Try getting a reservation to Rao's Italian Restaurant in New York, - or a seat at UTH at the Orleans on a Saturday night. We all want to be a high roller or a gangster...

Quote: AW

FYI. People shouldn't automatically get respect because of their profession.


I know. I stated the need for doctors and the educated in society, not the personal righteousness or integrity of them. A few posts ago I mentioned Woody Allen, a great director and screenwriter who may have a few alleged and despicable affectations of his own. There are no role models based on occupation alone.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Hunterhill
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May 11th, 2016 at 10:43:47 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

It's not clear to me that altering the card itself is required to violate the statute. There are lots of ways to cheat that don't involve physically defacing gaming equipment, and more importantly there are many phrases in NRS 465 which would appear to cover affirmative acts like edge sorting. For example, it's one thing to glance at a hole card shown by a sloppy dealer. It's another to actively manipulate a dealer into being sloppy so you can see their hole card. Sliding the dice has never been prosecuted by itself, but intentionally concealing a slide was held to be illegal in Nevada (Skipper v. State) under NRS 465.

My instinct is that edge sorting would fall under the latter category, of intentionally manipulating the game to your benefit, but that's why I asked whether it's ever been prosecuted in Nevada.


So under your premise if a player talks to the dealer right at the moment they take their holecard because the player knows that makes the dealer expose it, that makes it cheating?
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
MathExtremist
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May 11th, 2016 at 11:29:27 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

So under your premise if a player talks to the dealer right at the moment they take their holecard because the player knows that makes the dealer expose it, that makes it cheating?

In Skipper v. State, the Nevada Supreme Court wrote that
Quote:

a dice slider uses a methodology of play that is based upon a purposefully orchestrated combination of factors designed to change the nature of play through affirmative acts of cheating and deception. For example, as noted above, Skipper utilized an accomplice to obscure the dealer's vision of the table while Skipper purposely engaged in sliding the dice.
...
NRS 465.083 and NRS 465.015 have clear and certain application to those who attempt to supplant elements of chance with surreptitious conduct that alters both the nature of the game and the criteria for winning. A skilled dice slider such as Skipper, surreptitiously and contrary to the rules of the game, alters the probable outcome of a throw and drastically increases the chances of winning certain types of bets on the craps table.

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19941611879P2d732_11607/SKIPPER%20v.%20STATE

I don't think it's a stretch to apply the same reasoning to a scenario where the player knows that disrupting the dealer causes them to expose the hole card. But like edge sorting, I don't know if that's ever been tested in Nevada.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Ibeatyouraces
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May 11th, 2016 at 11:52:02 AM permalink
Dice sliding alters the natural probabilities of all results. Edge sorting does not.
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OnceDear
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May 11th, 2016 at 12:18:46 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

That's right, and why it is that much harder to achieve with each passing day.

While there are a multiple of things that can be done with cards and dice, relatively few of them provide any real improvement in terms of gambling or game-play juice, with fewer to discover of that value with each passing day. The door is closing a bit here, too.



Agreed. Dammit, I agree with Dan.

I know. How about a great new game with three ping pong balls and 100 white, red and yellow boxes.

KISS.

Ain't nobody going to invent. launch and nurture PokerJack or Black Hold'em or the next great card or dice game. Just maybe a few sucker side bets.

Simplicity and elegance is the only way to go.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
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May 11th, 2016 at 12:23:51 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

So under your premise if a player talks to the dealer right at the moment they take their holecard because the player knows that makes the dealer expose it, that makes it cheating?


I love to say 'Double' while playing Blackjack, after the dealer has given me my third card and the total is 10 or 11.
There have been countless times where the card has been pulled from the shoe and hovered quite high before he gets the joke. . . and gets annoyed

:o)
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Hunterhill
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May 11th, 2016 at 12:34:50 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

I love to say 'Double' while playing Blackjack, after the dealer has given me my third card and the total is 10 or 11.
There have been countless times where the card has been pulled from the shoe and hovered quite high before he gets the joke. . . and gets annoyed

:o)

And this helps you how? Your going to take another card anyways.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
OnceDear
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May 11th, 2016 at 12:41:08 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

And this helps you how? Your going to take another card anyways.



Mostly, the comedy value.

Plus, just maybe if I glimpsed that it would be a card to potentially help bust the dealer, say bringing him to 16, I might say. "Sorry, I meant stand"

Not that I would be so dishonourable :o) Like I say, comedy value.

Plus, there is one dealer who has a very bad and annoying habit of pre-empting my call when it's borderline. He reduces the pleasure I get from making my own decisions, so I like to mess with his head.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MathExtremist
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May 11th, 2016 at 1:36:00 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Dice sliding alters the natural probabilities of all results. Edge sorting does not.

Neither does using a shiner, or past-posting, or marking cards, or shooting angles with sloppy dealers, but all of those violate statutes. The law covers many more "bad acts" than just surreptitiously changing the odds. I'm not saying that edge sorting is necessarily illegal, but I'm also not convinced that a DA couldn't convince a Nevada judge that it's totally acceptable.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Ibeatyouraces
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May 11th, 2016 at 1:52:34 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Neither does using a shiner, or past-posting, or marking cards, or shooting angles with sloppy dealers, but all of those violate statutes. The law covers many more "bad acts" than just surreptitiously changing the odds. I'm not saying that edge sorting is necessarily illegal, but I'm also not convinced that a DA couldn't convince a Nevada judge that it's totally acceptable.


Most of those use an outside device. Spinning a card around isn't cheating, illegal nor does it use an outside device. If it is, then every casino that uses a turn is cheating as well.

I'm going to say this one last time. The only guaranteed way to eliminate it is by solid color card backs. Turns work but procedures get forgot from time to time.
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MathExtremist
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May 11th, 2016 at 2:24:08 PM permalink
Speaking of edge sorting, the suit between Borgata and Gemaco as to the liability for losses due to "defective" card backs is still ongoing. They're trading summary judgment motions:
http://www.legaluspokersites.com/news/borgatas-lawyers-filed-a-response-to-gemacos-call-for-summary-judgment/5467
http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowlandsmatters/12915/this-time-its-more-like-borgata-v-card-maker-not-phil-ivey/

And a few months ago, the Borgata's expert weighed in on the matter:
http://www.flushdraw.net/news/borgatas-hired-investigator-slams-phil-ivey-advantage-play-as-illegal-cheating/

Note that the laws in New Jersey are different than in Nevada, which doesn't appear to have similar language about "swindling."
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Ibeatyouraces
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May 11th, 2016 at 2:31:12 PM permalink
I his case, I concur. It would be like me convincing a dealer to flash a hole card just to me. Whether the dealer knows it helps or not is irrelevant.
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Hunterhill
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May 11th, 2016 at 2:59:03 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I his case, I concur. It would be like me convincing a dealer to flash a hole card just to me. Whether the dealer knows it helps or not is irrelevant.

I don't concur in his case ,because casino management was involved in the decision to let the dealer handle the cards in that manner. It's just like management allowing a courtesy shuffle. Some places allow high rollers multiple courtesy shuffles.
So is this cheating if the player only requests it when the count is negative.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 11th, 2016 at 3:00:59 PM permalink
But the house is allowed to do it in high counts, so it's a push. :-)
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TomG
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May 13th, 2016 at 5:22:48 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

You [Dan] are not an AP and you don't know enough to comment on it really.


I was making a couple of comments along the lines of:



1. Casino's have a long history of telling us they only care about loss protection in some areas, but not others.
2. "may be considered" but it isn't true at all. There are many Disadvantage Players (whom you believe earn appropriate entertainment value) who have a better gambling experience because they know that they could reverse the house edge anytime they wanted to make the effort. If we are to believe casino's offer some valuable contribution to their players even when charging a house edge, that contribution is magnified because of Advantage Players
3. "May," but many don't have those views.
4. Partnership is a good way of looking at the business arrangement. Day laborer is another good way, especially considering such a huge wealth gap between the house and the player
Paigowdan
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May 13th, 2016 at 7:28:04 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

You [Dan] are not an AP and you don't know enough to comment on it really.


I was making a couple of comments along the lines of:



1. Casino's have a long history of telling us they only care about loss protection in some areas, but not others.


Casinos respond to and implement what they feel is important. Casino do not have a long history of telling us anything except that Thursdays are 3x points for seniors.


Quote: TomG

2. "may be considered" but it isn't true at all. There are many Disadvantage Players (whom you believe earn appropriate entertainment value) who have a better gambling experience because they know that they could reverse the house edge anytime they wanted to make the effort. If we are to believe casino's offer some valuable contribution to their players even when charging a house edge, that contribution is magnified because of Advantage Players.


No it isn't, and that AP "advantages" for regular players are generally reductions for them. What's spent on loss prevention isn't spent on me. If regular players find entertainment at the casino or anywhere, I believe them and I can see that, otherwise they'd be elsewhere.


Quote: TomG

4. Partnership is a good way of looking at the business arrangement. Day laborer is another good way, especially considering such a huge wealth gap between the house and the player

.
I guess this is similar to the wealth of Hollywood studios versus the average Joe movie-goer, or a day laborer versus the oppressive land owner, or what have you. If this is upsetting to you, then don't go to the casino - or to the movies, or to a day-time job, etc. because an owner is well off. I couldn't care less about the CEO, and if I did, I might say "here's to success, wish I had more." Most regular players go to the casino (or the movies, etc.) to play cards or for recreation, and go to the restaurant - without a second thought of how the CEO is oppressing us by living well, or of AP-ing. I find such a focus counter-productive.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
darkoz
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May 13th, 2016 at 9:57:18 PM permalink
As an AP, I certainly don't look at the casinos as my place of employment. So when a casino eliminates an opportunity, I do not look at it as if I got fired or lost my job.

I am an independent contractor. Like a computer analyst who has a bunch of clients, when a client says his services are no longer required, he doesn't say, he got fired, but that he lost one of his clients. His business is still operating, just with other clients. And if his lost customer is a major blow, he works to get another client of hopefully equal value.

So, Dan, when a casino opportunity is dried up, I go looking for another. Please stop insisting I am fired or losing my job. I purposefully don't have an employer so no one can fire me - certainly not casinos!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Wizardofnothing
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May 13th, 2016 at 10:03:22 PM permalink
Curious what dan would say about a casino that offered double jackpots on roulette, is that cheating if it was played ?
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
Paigowdan
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May 13th, 2016 at 10:56:50 PM permalink
Wouldn't have anything to say on that - if a casino wants to offer double jackpots, their call.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
blackhole
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May 14th, 2016 at 5:35:44 AM permalink
I wish there was a weekly spread sheet like the Wall Street Journalís stock performance results that published all the alleged APís on this siteís weekly incomes. (+ or -) Until something like that happens, (of course we all know it could never happen) weíll be forced to read all these alleged allegations of gambling success every time we visit this site.

Iím not saying there arenít opportunities out there for a quick buck. Iím saying there arenít enough of them to endlessly support anyone just because they have the heart to learn, and are smarter then knowing basic math.

My opinion of APíing for a living would be similar to collecting deposit bottles for a living. How much you make depends on how hard you work at it. Heck, you could even buy yourself a truck and hire a driver (illegal immigrant for cheap) to drive you up and down the blocks on recycle pick up days while you rummage through the recycle pales likely loaded with free nickels. $$$$$

You could always count on APís to destroy quickly any positive opportunity a casino is willing to advertise and throw out there for the average punter. Just like that thread where the APís here got it removed because it was a possible positive promotion. The promotion was being advertised all over the place but the genius APís here want even the ridicules scraps. When I see bickering among the APís here going on over a well-advertised extremely limited opportunity, it becomes just another sign of desperation.

The AP's here always are ahead of everyone else. Even when online casinos are proven to be flawed, you'll always read about the AP's here who already hit and run, stopped playing there awhile ago, or only have a very little amount of money still at a bad site. It seems like they never lose.

Your unproven success here influences young people to risk their money or future on a gamble is ludicrous. All of you operate in the shadows of darkness and personally I suspect have serious gambling problems. It would be eye opening if some here would come clean and tell everyone the truth. But, we know that wonít happen either, since compulsive gamblers are well known compulsive liars.
Wizardofnothing
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May 14th, 2016 at 5:51:01 AM permalink
Quote: blackhole

I wish there was a weekly spread sheet like the Wall Street Journalís stock performance results that published all the alleged APís on this siteís weekly incomes. (+ or -) Until something like that happens, (of course we all know it could never happen) weíll be forced to read all these alleged allegations of gambling success every time we visit this site.

Iím not saying there arenít opportunities out there for a quick buck. Iím saying there arenít enough of them to endlessly support anyone just because they have the heart to learn, and are smarter then knowing basic math.

My opinion of APíing for a living would be similar to collecting deposit bottles for a living. How much you make depends on how hard you work at it. Heck, you could even buy yourself a truck and hire a driver (illegal immigrant for cheap) to drive you up and down the blocks on recycle pick up days while you rummage through the recycle pales likely loaded with free nickels. $$$$$

You could always count on APís to destroy quickly any positive opportunity a casino is willing to advertise and throw out there for the average punter. Just like that thread where the APís here got it removed because it was a possible positive promotion. The promotion was being advertised all over the place but the genius APís here want even the ridicules scraps. When I see bickering among the APís here going on over a well-advertised extremely limited opportunity, it becomes just another sign of desperation.

The AP's here always are ahead of everyone else. Even when online casinos are proven to be flawed, you'll always read about the AP's here who already hit and run, stopped playing there awhile ago, or only have a very little amount of money still at a bad site. It seems like they never lose.

Your unproven success here influences young people to risk their money or future on a gamble is ludicrous. All of you operate in the shadows of darkness and personally I suspect have serious gambling problems. It would be eye opening if some here would come clean and tell everyone the truth. But, we know that wonít happen either, since compulsive gamblers are well known compulsive liars.



You come in the site and 4 days in you make a comment insulting aps. You don't have a clue other then having a lack of understanding of how profitable some plays are/ which is clearly why you can't do it yourself... Your statement is like saying how can you make money owning a non profit - comparing aps to bottle collectors is insulting and shows how absolutely clueless you are in making a statement like that
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
Ibeatyouraces
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May 14th, 2016 at 5:54:52 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

You come in the site and 4 days in you make a comment insulting aps. You don't have a clue other then having a lack of understanding of how profitable some plays are/ which is clearly why you can't do it yourself... Your statement is like saying how can you make money owning a non profit - comparing aps to bottle collectors is insulting and shows how absolutely clueless you are in making a statement like that


Let them keep thinking that.
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Hunterhill
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May 14th, 2016 at 5:56:47 AM permalink
Quote: blackhole

I wish there was a weekly spread sheet like the Wall Street Journalís stock performance results that published all the alleged APís on this siteís weekly incomes. (+ or -) Until something like that happens, (of course we all know it could never happen) weíll be forced to read all these alleged allegations of gambling success every time we visit this site.

Iím not saying there arenít opportunities out there for a quick buck. Iím saying there arenít enough of them to endlessly support anyone just because they have the heart to learn, and are smarter then knowing basic math.

My opinion of APíing for a living would be similar to collecting deposit bottles for a living. How much you make depends on how hard you work at it. Heck, you could even buy yourself a truck and hire a driver (illegal immigrant for cheap) to drive you up and down the blocks on recycle pick up days while you rummage through the recycle pales likely loaded with free nickels. $$$$$

You could always count on APís to destroy quickly any positive opportunity a casino is willing to advertise and throw out there for the average punter. Just like that thread where the APís here got it removed because it was a possible positive promotion. The promotion was being advertised all over the place but the genius APís here want even the ridicules scraps. When I see bickering among the APís here going on over a well-advertised extremely limited opportunity, it becomes just another sign of desperation.

The AP's here always are ahead of everyone else. Even when online casinos are proven to be flawed, you'll always read about the AP's here who already hit and run, stopped playing there awhile ago, or only have a very little amount of money still at a bad site. It seems like they never lose.

Your unproven success here influences young people to risk their money or future on a gamble is ludicrous. All of you operate in the shadows of darkness and personally I suspect have serious gambling problems. It would be eye opening if some here would come clean and tell everyone the truth. But, we know that wonít happen either, since compulsive gamblers are well known compulsive liars.

You sound like a disgruntled loser, who has decided since you can't win no one else can either. It's okay the casinos need losers.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
blackhole
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May 14th, 2016 at 5:57:56 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

You come in the site and 4 days in you make a comment insulting aps. You don't have a clue other then having a lack of understanding of how profitable some plays are/ which is clearly why you can't do it yourself... Your statement is like saying how can you make money owning a non profit - comparing aps to bottle collectors is insulting and shows how absolutely clueless you are in making a statement like that



I'm sorry if I insulted you. I may have gone over the top with the bottle thing.

I just can't take allegations without proof.
Hunterhill
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May 14th, 2016 at 6:05:12 AM permalink
Quote: blackhole

I'm sorry if I insulted you. I may have gone over the top with the bottle thing.

I just can't take allegations without proof.


You want proof. You really think someone is going to post proof of their earnings?
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 14th, 2016 at 6:11:48 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

You want proof. You really think someone is going to post proof of their earnings?


People are lazy to learn anything and go do it themselves. It's amazing when ploppies sitting next to you at a HC game have no clue what's going on.
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blackhole
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May 14th, 2016 at 6:18:10 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

You want proof. You really think someone is going to post proof of their earnings?



My point exactly.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 14th, 2016 at 6:28:03 AM permalink
Again. The biggest myth about AP's is that they all make large amounts of money. That's not what AP is about. It's simply just playing a casino game with the edge in your favor.
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MrCasinoGames
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May 14th, 2016 at 6:37:35 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Again. The biggest myth about AP's is that they all make large amounts of money. That's not what AP is about. It's simply just playing a casino game with the edge in your favor.


+1
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
blackhole
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May 14th, 2016 at 6:40:23 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Again. The biggest myth about AP's is that they all make large amounts of money. That's not what AP is about. It's simply just playing a casino game with the edge in your favor.



I understand and agree with your statement. But, many here are claiming that it's their only source of income for years. Are successful AP's doing this for a living filing tax returns with "Gambler" as your occupation? If not do you get to subsidize your income sucking off the establishments welfare, food stamps, etc. programs?

I mean there are so many unknown things about life in general you all refuse to talk about.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 14th, 2016 at 6:46:05 AM permalink
Talk to a tax expert in your state. They'll tell you how to file as a professional gambler. There are books as well. As for me, I'm not subsidized by anyone, including the government or empty returnables.
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blackhole
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May 14th, 2016 at 7:07:19 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Talk to a tax expert in your state. They'll tell you how to file as a professional gambler. There are books as well. As for me, I'm not subsidized by anyone, including the government or empty returnables.



I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't asking how to file as a professional gambler. I was asking the AP's here if that's how they justify their income? If not: and I do understand most of AP'ing is a cash business; how do you get mortgages, car loans, or do anything else that requires some type of a back round about yourself? How do you justify your existence if it needs to be answered?
Ibeatyouraces
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May 14th, 2016 at 7:14:40 AM permalink
You have to find the right people in those areas that understand the business.
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darkoz
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May 14th, 2016 at 7:38:08 AM permalink
Quote: blackhole

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't asking how to file as a professional gambler. I was asking the AP's here if that's how they justify their income? If not: and I do understand most of AP'ing is a cash business; how do you get mortgages, car loans, or do anything else that requires some type of a back round about yourself? How do you justify your existence if it needs to be answered?



I can't speak for all AP's but I have noticed I fell into a similar pattern of learning to AP that I share with others that have posted here,.

I was homeless and destitute. Found methods for AP that for me helped me survive. They were akin to searching for bottles on the ground - at first. This was perfectly satisfactory as my income was zero at the time otherwise.

Within six months I had figured out how to make enough that I purposely stopped receiving government dole. I ignored the required face-to-face for renewals and all benefits were stopped. I was still living day to day, but did not want to be reliant on the services of the government if I didn't need it (even though, the income was small, easily hidden and I qualified, at least for medical benefits if not straight cash).

As time went on, I figured out how to make my AP enough to live more comfortably than almost everyone I know.

Many of my friends point out that had I not been homeless and jobless, I probably would not have had the time or nerve to be where I am today.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
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