MB
MB
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May 20th, 2016 at 3:51:16 AM permalink
40 pages. Wow.

Why not just teach all BJ dealers to count? They can then detect (for the most part) a player that is trying to circumvent the HE by counting. This seems like a low-cost way for the casino to prevent being exploited via card counting at BJ.

Put the dealers that aren't good at counting at 6:5, CSM, low limit, and other games.
RenoGambler
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May 20th, 2016 at 7:52:01 AM permalink
Quote: MB

Why not just teach all BJ dealers to count? They can then detect (for the most part) a player that is trying to circumvent the HE by counting. This seems like a low-cost way for the casino to prevent being exploited via card counting at BJ.



I doubt most dealers would be motivated to put the effort into learning to count for a job that pays as little as dealing typically does. Moreover, winning players (including casual counters if not professional) will generally tip better than losing players. You have to move a bit higher up the the chain of casino staff before you find many people who care enough to pay attention.
Variance giveth and variance taketh away.
Romes
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May 20th, 2016 at 8:02:56 AM permalink
Quote: MB

40 pages. Wow.

Why not just teach all BJ dealers to count?...

Some can... and this turns in to "when the count gets high just shuffle" which is cheating because you're altering the elements of chance by removing the good shoes but keeping the bad ones. It would be the same as taking big cards out of the decks to ensure a negative count then playing.

The reason they can "shuffle when they feel" is because they're NOT counting... They just know if you are and you bet big then the shoe must be rich. So by law they're shuffling "randomly" because they aren't counting, but in reality they're using counters to basically tell them when to shuffle. Ask anyone who's ever been shuffled on. It's right after you put out a big bet, of course. Some places are even so robotic about it the smart counter will use this to their advantage and put out a big bet in a negative count, then they shuffle it away...
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Paigowdan
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May 20th, 2016 at 8:25:46 AM permalink
If casinos shuffled "at will" then they'd be in a position to count, - and they would. If dealers counted for reshuffling purposes, or reshuffled based on some indication, then the house would be counting to their advantage, and this would be unacceptable. Besides, it's enough for many dealers to add the hands up properly.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MB
MB
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May 20th, 2016 at 9:16:52 AM permalink
Quote: RenoGambler

I doubt most dealers would be motivated to put the effort into learning to count for a job that pays as little as dealing typically does. Moreover, winning players (including casual counters if not professional) will generally tip better than losing players. You have to move a bit higher up the the chain of casino staff before you find many people who care enough to pay attention.



The ability to count is clearly worth something. If I ran a casino, I would compensate dealers that demonstrate the ability to count in a live game situation. Assuming counters are a real drain on the bottom line, paying 100 dealers an extra $5k each (or $10k) per year seems like a sensible business strategy.

---

I'm not following all these comments about preferential shuffling. Is there no cut card in single/double deck BJ? In a shoe game, the casino (or dealer) cannot reshuffle prior to the cut card. Note: I'm in Canada...the casinos I play at don't have non-CSM BJ with fewer than 6 decks.
MathExtremist
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May 20th, 2016 at 9:21:54 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Some can... and this turns in to "when the count gets high just shuffle" which is cheating because you're altering the elements of chance by removing the good shoes but keeping the bad ones. It would be the same as taking big cards out of the decks to ensure a negative count then playing.

To my knowledge, the only place this question has been litigated is New Jersey, which explicitly ruled that it was not cheating. See Doug Grant v. Greate Bay and Campione v. Adamar.

Does anyone know whether preferential shuffling, aka shuffling-at-will, has ever been tested in any other venue?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paigowdan
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May 20th, 2016 at 9:36:00 AM permalink
Quote: MB

I'm not following all these comments about preferential shuffling. Is there no cut card in single/double deck BJ? In a shoe game, the casino (or dealer) cannot reshuffle prior to the cut card. Note: I'm in Canada...the casinos I play at don't have non-CSM BJ with fewer than 6 decks.


A cut card is used in double-deck, often at around 60% or 70%.
Single deck is dealt based on the number of hands dealt (rounds times players), so there's always a static re-shuffle point there.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
beachbumbabs
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May 20th, 2016 at 7:32:37 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

....But card counting isn't card play strategy, it's varying bet size with the count for profit, and be cause for a back off from the game.


....



I've been staying out of this for the most part, but what you said above is just wrong. Card counting is exactly "card play strategy ". The casinos don't like it because it works.

If the casinos wanted to kill card counting, they'd just make the min/max the same. But they don't, except when they're trying to kill a good player. Says a lot about the casinos, not flattering.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Paigowdan
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May 20th, 2016 at 8:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I've been staying out of this for the most part, but what you said above is just wrong. Card counting is exactly "card play strategy ". The casinos don't like it because it works.


Barbara, card counting is bet-sizing strategy, based on the count indicating -EV or +EV, and to what degree. Play may change, too, but never enough without bet sizing. If you could card count by just using card play strategy (hit, stand, double, split adjustments), you could AP by flat-betting - which isn't the case. And yes, casinos don't like it precisely because it works. Hole-carding, edge sorting, capping and pinching, dice-sliding, and anything else that "works" for profit is disliked also. And yes, these are in different legal categories, but they are all back off offensives and disallowed play - "disliked."


Quote: BBB

If the casinos wanted to kill card counting, they'd just make the min/max the same. But they don't, except when they're trying to kill a good player. Says a lot about the casinos, not flattering.


Casinos also aren't saints either, true.
What would kill card-counting is not having BJ bonuses of 3:2. 6:5 works as game protection, as does CSM machines, without having to adjust limits.
And, they do make the min and the max the same when they flat bet a player.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
mcallister3200
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May 20th, 2016 at 8:36:27 PM permalink
Really need to stop grouping legal and illegal things toget her Dan, it's pathetic and negates any point your trying to make. Dan designs table games for profit, just like some people murder or sell drugs for profit. See?
Paigowdan
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May 20th, 2016 at 8:40:32 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Really need to stop grouping legal and illegal things toget her Dan, it's pathetic and negates any point your trying to make. Dan designs table games for profit, just like some people murder or sell drugs for profit. See?



I'm grouping "disallowed play" with "disallowed play."
If it is disallowed play, you're barred from doing that maneuver in those terms - and regardless of any other status.

You can also group them all together as "disliked play," "un-allowed play" "barred play," etc.

They all do indeed share this characteristic, in the sense that it is up to the casino to allow or disallow the play.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizardofnothing
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May 20th, 2016 at 8:58:13 PM permalink
Dan you are completely biased and unable to objectively see both sides of it, you defend the casinos 24-7 to the death.
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
Paigowdan
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May 20th, 2016 at 9:09:28 PM permalink
I don't defend them when they're wrong, oh no. And no, I'm not biased for any side doing disallowed stuff, and I've said so.
When I list a group of practices that are disallowed casino maneuvers - restricted from play, that is to say - card counting apparently falls into that category. The casino can say "No, that's not allowed."

All these things may be restricted from play regardless of anything else, to include card counting. What don't YOU see? I mean, if you were to make a list of actions that can get you backed off from play, wouldn't you include it? I would and do. what happens after you leave the table for it is of no interest to a dealer.

Look, one of the things I'm pointing out is the fallacy that if it is legal, then it is also all right or allowable for play. Not the case.
I think there is a sense among AP players is that if it is legal, then it must also be perfect all right to do in a casino. This isn't true.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
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May 20th, 2016 at 9:17:32 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I don't defend them when they're wrong, oh no. And no, I'm not biased for anyone doing disallowed stuff, and I've said so.
When I list a group of practices that are disallowed casino maneuvers - restricted from play, that is to say - card counting apparently falls into that category.
All these things may be restricted from play regardless of anything else, to include card counting. What don't YOU see? I mean, if you were to make a list of actions that can get you backed off from play, wouldn't you include it? I would and do. what happens after you leave the table for it is of no interest to a dealer.

It's simple. Get rid of the games and fill the holes and stop bitching.

What's the problem?

Oh wait the problem is that, that would drive away the ignorant people who play dumb and it would kill the casinos profits.

The fact is the casinos are only interested in people who refuse to use their brains. So we can call it smatrisim instead of racism.

All places should have the same rules as AC.

And no the failure of AC has nothing to do with AP so don't use that as a reference. Because if AP had anything to do with AC failure. Then in fact you should be encouraging people to take up AP because it can take down an entire city.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
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May 20th, 2016 at 9:24:54 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


Oh wait the problem is that, that would drive away the ignorant people who play dumb.

The fact is the casinos are only interested in people who refuse to use their brains. So we can call it smatrisim instead of racism.


Are roulette players dumb? Are crap players dumb? Are Pai Gow Poker players dumb? Are basic strategy BJ players dumb?

No. They're using their brains when I say "I wish to play at a casino and without issues, or any interest where the goal is in trying to score a free lunch here." There is no claim of not using your brains when you don't always try for an advantage that may be disallowed. I suppose you think all the players playing roulette, craps Pai Gow poker, BJ by basic strategy, and UTH are dummies not using their brains?

Quote: AW

Then in fact you should be encouraging people to take up AP because it can take down an entire city.


Like what, Aleppo [Syria]? or Atlantic City? ("Feel the awesome power that IS AP play!...") That's only a reason if you're trying to take down a city. Some people may go to the casino to spend an hour or two tossing dice.
Is this the AP's intention, to take down a city, - or Putin's?
The intention should be to make extra $$$, allowed or not by the joint, no more.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on May 20, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
darkoz
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June 2nd, 2016 at 9:44:50 AM permalink
Dan, your argument with BBB over whether bet sizing is disallowed behavior is ridiculous.

If bet sizing was so harmful, then why is Martingales not disallowed at all games? Why does the casino not stop a player from jumping up from $5 a hand to thousands in just a small series?

Obviously, its because bet sizing is only considered a disallowed action when it means the casino may lose.

This is by definition cheating.

Would you play a game where anytime you have a chance to win greater than your opponent, they change the rules? Oh, forgive me but apparently you do. I am sure every team sport you ever played, the other teammates really welcomed you.

Coach: The other team's kicker had knee surgery last year. We can win this if we concentrate on making him run harder.

Dan: That is cheating. Possibly illegal. We should never take advantage of a situation in order to win.

As far as AP's believing that if it's legal, it's okay to do, I 100% agree with you. That is precisely the thinking I personally have. In fact, when I first started AP'ing, I made a conscious decision to make certain I did nothing illegal.. Everything else is fair game. You seem to believe that a casino's rules are sancrosanct. In fact, the law says they are not (yes, surprise surprise, when you card count ant the casinos backroom you, guess who's side the law is on.

I have also seen you make an argument that all players should consciously lose money as this is a fee for their entertainment. By avoiding the HE, that is akin to seeing movies for free.

Your argument comparing it to movies sounds unbreakable until you realize that too is specious. There are people who see movies for free. Film critics, who turned their love of movies into a business, regularly see movies for free. Are they doing something immoral because they have figured out a way of avoiding the entrance fee.

Oh, let me head off your answer at the pass. You are going to say that is alright because the studios invited them and they are doing a service. The problem with that answer is AP's have been invited to casinos as well. Many an AP have been invited with offers only to have them revoked when the casino discovered the intended bottom line didn't go their way. Movie critics? Yep, surprise but they are treated sometimes the same way by the studios. I have heard of critics barred from screenings of sequels to films they trashed (in fact it is not unheard of for a studio to not invite any critics for films they know are going to be bad which is as atrocious an act as anything the casinos do) but of course you feel that is okay because they are just protecting their bottom line.

So, the studios invited some critics in the hopes of helping their bottom line and when the reviews trashed their film, it didn't go quite the way they expected. Sound familiar?

If you lived in California, Dan, you could get to see pre-release movies for free! Just sign up with a studios mailing list and they will send you invites. They are called pre-release screenings. Are people who only go to these screenings, effectively avoiding the service fee, doing something immoral?

Oh, wait, did I say you could see them for free, Dan? In fact, you Dan, would not be allowed. Yes, that's right, the studios would discriminate against you. See, they only want the opinions of people who are within a certain age demographic. Almost all screenings will have an age cap (usually 35, sometimes 45, unless of course you are being invited to "On Golden Pond" or some other old age folks flick). Yes, I am sure you believe that is okay.

So, I did something immoral when I lied and told the studio I was under 35, (I was 39 at the time) because I too was a fan of Twilight(okay, yes I admit right here I am into Twilight. I am a vampire aficionado so sue me.)

In fact, here is one you might be surprised at. The film studios believe that skilled film-goers cannot judge their films either. That's right, if the studio thinks you are skilled, you cannot enter a pre-release screening of their films. You are effectively barred/banned from free films.

You see, I was not only too old to see many of their free screeners, I was also a member of the Hollywood film community. I worked in a motion picture laboratory on big budget films like Kill Bill and Pirates of the Caribbean. And yes, I lied and said I had nothing to do with the film community because I wanted to see free films. (I gave my honest opinion of them. What does it tell you when the studio is scared of opinions from people with skill?)

I never felt it was immoral to see a free film when invited. I refuse to allow a company, just because they have a business license, to dictate to me unfair rules. And here is where I know you will disagree, Dan. You cannot believe that a business could ever make unfair rules. If the company made the rules, then it is their company and is by definition fair. Luckily the law disagrees with you on many of these counts.

BTW - Just went to a casino to pick up my VIP gift. They were giving away Louie Vuiton, Givenchy, Prada, and Micheal Kors ladies handbags. Most of the people on the line were men. I went up to the host and asked if it was against the rules to give away your comps to other people. He naturally replied, they were only for the recipient. I then asked how many of the men on the line he expected were going to be walking around with ladies handbags. He laughed and said, it was okay to give those away. Even the casino knows half the time their blanket rules are not meant to be followed.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MB
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June 2nd, 2016 at 10:15:34 AM permalink
"I refuse to allow a company...to dictate unfair rules"

Yes, I agree. However, there is legal precedent around rules that businesses have. You may not like the law, but the law is the law.

See http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/restaurants-right-to-refuse-service.html

Most of the reasons for disallowing patrons are subjective. For example, take cleanliness. What if I didn't shower for three days? One week? Two weeks? There is no absolute. Same applies to a "skilled" player.

Can't believe the designer handbags as the VIP gift. I got luggage. :(
DiscreteMaths2
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June 2nd, 2016 at 10:48:55 AM permalink
Quote: MB

"I refuse to allow a company...to dictate unfair rules"

Yes, I agree. However, there is legal precedent around rules that businesses have. You may not like the law, but the law is the law.



And yet that didn't stop the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act of 1992.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Paigowdan
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June 2nd, 2016 at 11:15:24 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Dan, your argument with BBB over whether bet sizing is disallowed behavior is ridiculous.


Bet sizing is indeed allowed, didn't say it wasn't. Bet sizing that parallels the count may not be. I said that, too.

Quote: darkoz

If bet sizing was so harmful, then why is Martingales not disallowed at all games? Why does the casino not stop a player from jumping up from $5 a hand to thousands in just a small series?


It's only bet sizing that moves in sync with the count that is the issue, not bet sizing in general.

Quote: darkoz

Obviously, its because bet sizing is only considered a disallowed action when it means the casino may lose.


No, it is only a disallowed action when the casino may lose more money more often because of the use of a disallowed action, and backing off AP players is also not cheating. Disallowing play is a reasonable business decision to make if someone is AP-ing your joint.

Quote: darkoz

This is by definition cheating.


I disagree; I'm now of the opinion that card counting is actually not all-out cheating in the sense or card marking, etc. It is still disallowed, and may be barred.

Quote: darkoz

Would you play a game where anytime you have a chance to win greater than your opponent, they change the rules?


The rules didn't change, it's no card counting going in to the game, and all parties know this going in.

Quote: darkoz

As far as AP's believing that if it's legal, it's okay to do, I 100% agree with you. That is precisely the thinking I personally have. In fact, when I first started AP'ing, I made a conscious decision to make certain I did nothing illegal.. Everything else is fair game. You seem to believe that a casino's rules are sacrosanct.


They are indeed- if you wish to play unimpeded.

Quote: darkoz

In fact, the law says they are not (yes, surprise surprise, when you card count ant the casinos backroom you, guess who's side the law is on.


Card counting is legal, as is trespassing or ejecting someone who is counting; back rooming is not.

Quote: darkoz

I have also seen you make an argument that all players should consciously lose money as this is a fee for their entertainment. By avoiding the HE, that is akin to seeing movies for free.


I never made that argument. The argument I made is that most people have no trouble playing by the house rules, and that players may also win or lose based on 100% legit play. It's when you AP that you try to artificially affect the win and loss results, and that may be disallowed.

Quote: darkoz

Oh, let me head off your answer at the pass. You are going to say that is alright because the studios invited them and they are doing a service. The problem with that answer is AP's have been invited to casinos as well.


Unwittingly, yes. The camouflage and cover plays do work.

Quote: darkoz

Many an AP have been invited with offers only to have them revoked when the casino discovered the intended bottom line didn't go their way.


No, APs invitations were revoked when it was clear that the APs misrepresented themselves as non-AP players in trying to exploit the offering, and where as a result the bottom line would not go the casinos' way if tolerated or allowed to happen, so out they went. No surprise here.

Quote: darkoz

If you lived in California, Dan, you could get to see pre-release movies for free! Just sign up with a studios mailing list and they will send you invites. They are called pre-release screenings. Are people who only go to these screenings, effectively avoiding the service fee, doing something immoral?


No. You get offered a freebie, you may take a freebie. It's when you try to take it without permission or under fraudulent pretenses there may be an issue.

Quote: darkoz

Oh, wait, did I say you could see them for free, Dan? In fact, you Dan, would not be allowed. Yes, that's right, the studios would discriminate against you. See, they only want the opinions of people who are within a certain age demographic. Almost all screenings will have an age cap (usually 35, sometimes 45, unless of course you are being invited to "On Golden Pond" or some other old age folks flick). Yes, I am sure you believe that is okay.


Sure, I happily pay for my movies that I am not entitled to see for free, that is, if they weren't comped. Nor would I lie or misrepresent myself for the sake of a free movie. I don't need to do that if I can pay the proper admission fee without that being an issue.

Quote: darkoz

So, I did something immoral when I lied and told the studio I was under 35, (I was 39 at the time)...


Yes, you did. You lied in order to get something for free. You misrepresented yourself. Me, I just pay the $12 and see the movie like most people do, no AP-ing here either.

Quote: darkoz

In fact, here is one you might be surprised at. The film studios believe that skilled film-goers cannot judge their films either. That's right, if the studio thinks you are skilled, you cannot enter a pre-release screening of their films. You are effectively barred/banned from free films.


That's fine with me, and I understand it. They don't want pros either. So just pay for what you want to see without issue about it - like everyone else. If the studio is looking for specific demographics, let them.

Quote: darkoz

I never felt it was immoral to see a free film when invited.


How about when uninvited, or lying in order to get invited? My point is that that's different.

Quote: darkoz

I refuse to allow a company, just because they have a business license, to dictate to me unfair rules.


They set the conditions on their freebie offerings, as they have a right to, Let the people who are supposed to see it for free see it for free, why worry about genuinely being in that group or not.

Quote: darkoz

And here is where I know you will disagree, Dan. You cannot believe that a business could ever make unfair rules. If the company made the rules, then it is their company and is by definition fair. Luckily the law disagrees with you on many of these counts.


The law agrees with me, as I happily pay my fee if I need to. If they set the rules then it is by definition the rules to play by. Don't like it, go elsewhere, or set up your own movie house or card room and see the other side.

Quote: darkoz

BTW - Just went to a casino to pick up my VIP gift. They were giving away Louie Vuiton, Givenchy, Prada, and Micheal Kors ladies handbags. Most of the people on the line were men. I went up to the host and asked if it was against the rules to give away your comps to other people. He naturally replied, they were only for the recipient. I then asked how many of the men on the line he expected were going to be walking around with ladies handbags. He laughed and said, it was okay to give those away. Even the casino knows half the time their blanket rules are not meant to be followed.


If a guy picks up a comped handbag for his wife, it is not in violation of the rules. The correct recipient received the gift in these cases.
Station casinos gives boxed chocolates to their card holders and employees on Valentines day. You are allowed to then give it to a loved one, and this is not any sort of transgression of policy; to say otherwise is pushing the boundaries of conspiracy. Once the bona fide recipient receives his comp gift, he might be able to give it as a present also.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
onalinehorse
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June 2nd, 2016 at 12:26:21 PM permalink
Paigowdan " I disagree; I'm now of the opinion that card counting is actually not all-out cheating in the sense or card marking, etc. It is still disallowed, and may be barred. "

who says you can't teach an old dog a new t?
Paigowdan
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June 2nd, 2016 at 12:34:28 PM permalink
Quote: onalinehorse

who says you can't teach an old dog a new t?


We are (hopefully) all capable of a little growth.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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June 2nd, 2016 at 12:34:28 PM permalink
Quote: onalinehorse

who says you can't teach an old dog a new t?


We are (hopefully) all capable of a little growth.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
beachbumbabs
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June 2nd, 2016 at 3:52:49 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

We are (hopefully) all capable of a little growth.



Well done. I applaud your reconsideration.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Paigowdan
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June 2nd, 2016 at 4:11:28 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Well done. I applaud your reconsideration.


;)
Don't get yer hopes up. AP remains a back off-able, ejection-worthy action. Anyone who gets ejected from a gambling hall is not a James Bond type in my book.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DiscreteMaths2
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June 2nd, 2016 at 5:26:46 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

;)
Don't get yer hopes up. AP remains a back off-able, ejection-worthy action. Anyone who gets ejected from a gambling hall is not a James Bond type in my book.



Yeah I agree, James Bond would never get thrown out of a casino for dunking a water bottle into a trash can.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
RogerKint
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June 25th, 2016 at 10:37:51 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Great Sig. How did ice cube go from the don mega to are we there yet?




If Straight outta Compton was an Oscar contender
100% risk of ruin
onenickelmiracle
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September 9th, 2016 at 2:01:55 AM permalink
God read a few pages mid way and had to skip to the end.

In a nutshell I view casinos as a symptom of bad government. The government allows victimization of its own citizens by casinos in order to serve the government's own corruption and depends on casinos to pull the trigger and lets them keep a piece. We really aren't all represented in our American government the way we should be, taxed without representation, oppressed by laws which don't apply to the "royals", etc. I think casinos should be legal, but should be restrained on how they make money and how much they make. Basically profits should only come by a person choosing to bet, for how long and by how much, at no edge greater than 5%. If the casino can't make money honestly, they should do something else.


We deserve better.
I am a robot.
monet0412
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bobbartop
September 9th, 2016 at 3:55:45 AM permalink
I've been in Vegas over 20 years. Got backed off in BJ off the jump. Moved to poker till it got on TV. Moved to VP and Reels next. I make a decent living still with VP and reels. Not as good as 10-15 years ago but good enough for me. I've never been 86'd and never in trouble for playing progressives but I never really play with stations cause they are the evil empire! One thing I do often is tip everyone that has power to 86 me. I like to get management and hosts on my side and it seems to cover me in my exploits! Most APs don't like to tip and they hate playing at the bars. I understand but paying a large extortion tax can and will benefit you in the long run. It doesn't matter if you agree or like it... It is just my life long
experience. An old saying seems to ring true that... Everyone loves a cheerful giver. Sometimes just a five spot or ten or twenty is enough. Other times when your on some great promotion I find C notes help and remember people talk about how nice or not nice you are. Remember these hosts are in meetings about you and your play! For newbies... It is best to tip with sealed envelopes. I find the free cards that the Palms gift away are perfect but soon the palms will be in the hands of the evil empire.. So long Palms ... I'll miss my 400 free play a month per card 😢. I have to admit that things are different for me since I have not filed taxes for over 20 years as well soooo there's that too! Oh another important tip is to play graveyard hours. I see the dumb ap players all the time playing banker hours when every boss is on property. Silly in my book. Play from midnight till about 8am... Much safer! My wife is a huge player but has never met any casino employees And rarely goes in the casinos!
Last edited by: monet0412 on Sep 9, 2016
Wizardofnothing
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September 9th, 2016 at 5:24:44 AM permalink
You haven't paid taxes in twenty years..... Doesn't sound too good
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
monet0412
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September 9th, 2016 at 8:04:00 AM permalink
Come and get me ... Top of the world ma!! I expected some fluff like that from WoN. I'm guessing he gambles like all these moral poker players I know who refuse to team play or cheat in anyway. I heard some NCAA Football coach say "If you ain't cheating you ain't winning." No big deal to me... This forum is a bit of a joke anyway. Not even sure why I try to educate anyone. I have had accomplises get back roomed right in front of me but that's because they were being stupid running their mouths and throwing chips. Anyways, I'll leave all you real professionals to it and crawl back in my hole shaking and waiting for the IRS!
Wizardofnothing
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September 9th, 2016 at 8:13:44 AM permalink
If you are an ap on slots and haven't hit a jackpot then something is wrong ... That was why I said it.
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
monet0412
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September 9th, 2016 at 10:23:29 AM permalink
Troll!
Wizardofnothing
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September 9th, 2016 at 10:26:57 AM permalink
I don't even need to reply to that lol
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
KingoftheEye
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September 9th, 2016 at 10:34:48 AM permalink
Quote: monet0412

I've been in Vegas over 20 years. Got backed off in BJ off the jump. Moved to poker till it got on TV. Moved to VP and Reels next. I make a decent living still with VP and reels. Not as good as 10-15 years ago but good enough for me. I've never been 86'd and never in trouble for playing progressives but I never really play with stations cause they are the evil empire! One thing I do often is tip everyone that has power to 86 me. I like to get management and hosts on my side and it seems to cover me in my exploits! Most APs don't like to tip and they hate playing at the bars. I understand but paying a large extortion tax can and will benefit you in the long run. It doesn't matter if you agree or like it... It is just my life long
experience. An old saying seems to ring true that... Everyone loves a cheerful giver. Sometimes just a five spot or ten or twenty is enough. Other times when your on some great promotion I find C notes help and remember people talk about how nice or not nice you are. Remember these hosts are in meetings about you and your play! For newbies... It is best to tip with sealed envelopes. I find the free cards that the Palms gift away are perfect but soon the palms will be in the hands of the evil empire.. So long Palms ... I'll miss my 400 free play a month per card 😢. I have to admit that things are different for me since I have not filed taxes for over 20 years as well soooo there's that too! Oh another important tip is to play graveyard hours. I see the dumb ap players all the time playing banker hours when every boss is on property. Silly in my book. Play from midnight till about 8am... Much safer! My wife is a huge player but has never met any casino employees And rarely goes in the casinos!



From a surveillance management perspective, let me tell you why you haven't been 86'd and I give this advice freely to all self-proclaimed APs out there. It's not because you tip, it's not because the slot floor people like you, it's because as far as the casino is concerned: You don't matter.

If you were winning enough to worry about, we would easily identify what banks you were winning on, analyze your play, and take action if needed. Regardless if you were playing on a card or not. If you were a threat to the business' profit, the slot floor people would have absolutely zero say in if you are 86'd or not in a decent sized operation. If you want to bribe someone, find out who their performance analysts are.
Wizardofnothing
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September 9th, 2016 at 10:37:07 AM permalink
Well said
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
mamat
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December 25th, 2016 at 5:31:11 AM permalink
Quote: KingoftheEye

From a surveillance management perspective, let me tell you why you haven't been 86'd and I give this advice freely to all self-proclaimed APs out there. It's not because you tip, it's not because the slot floor people like you, it's because as far as the casino is concerned: You don't matter.

Love this.

I've heard casino staff talk about some APs and say "We know what they are doing. They don't cost us that much."

Quote: TomG

Very few who earn over six figures is earning anywhere near that from any one casino. It's much more typical to spread that out around dozens of places.

Good APs don't need to look like regular players. They just need to blend in with typical make-not-so-much-money career APs, recreational APs, and regular long-time gamblers who mix a little AP stuff with <100% gambling.

Most APs have some major weakness, which is a huge money-sink. Blackjack player likes craps or sports bets. Machine player likes Blackjack or Video Poker or Baccarat. Sports bettor likes table games or slots. UX Vulture likes to play UX heads-up.

I love craps even though it is a losing game for me. It's just fun!
I'm a lifetime loser at horse betting.
-----
With some VP promotions, a casino has carefully weighed the costs of leaving a few AP-able machines open versus their intent (e.g. attract more players to Wednesdays is the goal, and we are willing to lose $X/week on these 6 machines due to APs). But some casinos aren't so good at designing promotions...

Some casino staff have been fired for inability to detect problem offerings (tables, dealers, slots, promotions, etc...) after large losses.

There's a wide difference in skill & knowledge among casino staff between casinos (just as wide as the difference in AP knowledge & skill between players).
-----
P.S. My personal view is casinos are businesses, and are allowed to decide who they do & don't want to offer services to... Until laws change (except for a few states), they are allowed to ban anyone.

I actually appreciated it when one casino was honest & said "We are 86'ing you, and we don't need to give a reason."
-----
Tricky issue for casino surveillance vs. slot departments. Often small-time AP players are in families with a big loser (which is how they got introduced to gambling in the first place). Don't want to 86 the small winner, and lose the family member donating big-time to the casino.
Last edited by: mamat on Dec 25, 2016
monet0412
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December 25th, 2016 at 9:27:08 AM permalink
deleted
Wizardofnothing
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December 25th, 2016 at 10:09:26 AM permalink
Ridic
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
ChumpChange
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October 19th, 2018 at 9:45:20 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I was 86ed for hitting 2 royals in 3 days. Another time I was 86ed after hitting 90k in w2gs in 2 days.
I know a casino that 86ed the wrong person in a case of mistaken identity, after discovering their mistake the casino never bothered to correct it.
Another case a college student was on spring break and went to a casino with his parents, while watching someone playing bj and talking with him the player and the student were both 86ed. The student didn't know the other player and had never gambled in a casino, yet he was listed as an associate and put in a database of undesirables.
These are just a few examples of how casinos operate.



Remind me not to associate with anyone in a casino.
ChumpChange
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October 21st, 2018 at 3:19:00 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

If casinos treated their buffets like they did their games no one who weighed over 210 pounds would be able to eat the buffet. And certainly if they got info on the last mcnugget challenge poker grinder would be flyered to buffets all over the country.



My local McDonald's closed their lobby and ripped everything out, so all the doors are locked. But you can still order through the drive-thru!
Slotenthusiast
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June 4th, 2023 at 6:28:12 AM permalink
This is a super old thread but still needs mentioning that normally the only casinos who care about slot APís are small time operators. The big dogs only care if you are disturbing others in your slot AP pursuits. Things like checking a machine right next to someone else who is playing. Sitting behind someone stalking them until they get up.

Casinos that bar pure slot advantage players to put it bluntly are run by stupid people. I donít know of a single AP who hasnít gone on tilt and lost not only their AP profits but thousands more. At the end of the day APís in the slot sense are still gamblers. Banning slot gamblers from your casino is just about the stupidest thing casino management can do.

Case in point. A small time operation near me (about 400 machines) decided my business wasnít welcome anymore. Meanwhile 90 percent of the time I was the only person playing in the entire casino (would mainly go at night) Iíve lost thousands in a mere hour. However in the weeks proceeding the ban I was up about 6 grand and they decided to give me the boot. I gladly took their 6 grand to a competitor and donked half of it off. They also ensured theyíll never see a single dime from me again. A place where I did far more gambling than AP work.
Last edited by: Slotenthusiast on Jun 4, 2023
mcallister3200
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June 4th, 2023 at 7:03:08 AM permalink
ThoseÖÖarenít APís.
Sandybestdog
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June 4th, 2023 at 8:54:11 AM permalink
A casino recently took out some machines. I was talking to a bar tender and she told me she heard the machines were losing too much because people had ďfigured them outĒ. I doubt that was the reason but appreciated the info. We then briefly talked. Without seeming too knowledgeable I told a story recently of hitting an $8k jackpot. The attendant came up within a minute, pulled my card out, went to the back, came back and gave me the w2g and cash all within 3 minutes. No ID, no manager approval. The point is casinos give machines and machine players very long leashes. They know on any given day/week/month a machine or player will be winning and they accept that. Meanwhile I was limited at a sports book to $100 after just one bet. Many blackjack tables need approval just to pay out a single black chip.

So in general context if you are restricted on machines, the casino would really have to take notice. Hustlers are exceptionally easy to spot and I donít see any casinos taking any widespread action against them.
ChumpChange
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June 4th, 2023 at 10:12:21 AM permalink
It's kind of amazing that Victor of the Slotlady channel can make table max bets and not get fliered by the sweatiest casino in Vegas, the El Cortez.

I've seen a YouTube card counter record himself getting barred from a slew of casinos, but they say it was for counting cards, but I'd kick him out just for his foul mouth. But he did make off with 6 figure paydays before getting banned, so can you live on that and for how long?
Slotenthusiast
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June 4th, 2023 at 2:59:12 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

A casino recently took out some machines. I was talking to a bar tender and she told me she heard the machines were losing too much because people had ďfigured them outĒ. I doubt that was the reason but appreciated the info. We then briefly talked. Without seeming too knowledgeable I told a story recently of hitting an $8k jackpot. The attendant came up within a minute, pulled my card out, went to the back, came back and gave me the w2g and cash all within 3 minutes. No ID, no manager approval. The point is casinos give machines and machine players very long leashes. They know on any given day/week/month a machine or player will be winning and they accept that. Meanwhile I was limited at a sports book to $100 after just one bet. Many blackjack tables need approval just to pay out a single black chip.

So in general context if you are restricted on machines, the casino would really have to take notice. Hustlers are exceptionally easy to spot and I donít see any casinos taking any widespread action against them.
link to original post



Another point to consider is that most casino employees, especially bartenders and dealers are completely clueless. As evidenced by what that bartender told you. A slot or video poker machine could never cost a casino money unless it hit the first day it was installed and then removed the very next day. Every machine is programmed to pay less than what it takes in over the long term.
Sandybestdog
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June 4th, 2023 at 3:57:42 PM permalink
The bartender didnít pretend to be an authority on what happened.

A machine can easily show a loss for a period of time and the casino not care.
Slotenthusiast
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June 4th, 2023 at 5:24:25 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

The bartender didnít pretend to be an authority on what happened.

A machine can easily show a loss for a period of time and the casino not care.
link to original post



Like I said any casino with management worth a shit wouldnít care regardless. All they should care about is how much play itís getting.
Zcore13
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June 4th, 2023 at 6:32:15 PM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: Sandybestdog

The bartender didnít pretend to be an authority on what happened.

A machine can easily show a loss for a period of time and the casino not care.
link to original post



Like I said any casino with management worth a shit wouldnít care regardless. All they should care about is how much play itís getting.
link to original post



Many machines have been taken advantage of. From bugs in the software, to programmer writing back doors, to unbalanced dice and more. Every slot director examines the numbers to see if they are within tolerance. Many places will require a "variance report" if a machine (or table) is off from its expected hold for a month (or less for huge casinos). 99% of the time it's explainable by jackpots.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
rsactuary
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June 4th, 2023 at 6:33:06 PM permalink
I believe there is actually code in a slot machine that forces it to shut down if it's outside of a tolerable variance. by law.
gordonm888
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June 4th, 2023 at 8:08:46 PM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast


Like I said any casino with management worth a shit wouldnít care regardless. All they should care about is how much play itís getting.
link to original post



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