Thread Rating:

pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 2nd, 2011 at 7:04:10 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'm not one to question you, but based on other usages I would translate dejar de fumar as "you are able to stop smoking," rather than a command to stop.



Usually if you use the word "able" in your translation, the Spanish word is "podar", or one of it's conjugations like puede.

I was trying to do a translation that used the same verb in English, where one sense was permission to do something, and the other sense was no permission to do the same thing. But you are correct, it came out as a command, which is not correct.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 2nd, 2011 at 7:17:11 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Usually if you use the word "able" in your translation, the Spanish word is "podar", or one of it's conjugations like puede.



"PodEr."

"PodAr" means "to mow" as in "podar el jardín," "to mow the lawn."

That one also means "can." Obama's "Yes we can" slogan was stolen from Mexican sucker fans, really, who like chanting "Si se puede" when they are not intent on murdering the national team. If the team wins, they like to celebrate by chanting "Si se pudo."

I see worms coming out of a can. Curious.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 2nd, 2011 at 7:59:13 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

That's quite absurd. My first try at learning English was with a native speaker who didn't know Spanish. I had mediocre results. I did a lot better with a native Spanish speaker who knew English well, and further knew how to explain the diferences in both languages. But then the man was a gifted teacher.





Grammar is particularly difficult to learn in another language. After all almost nobody knows what the pluperfect tense is in English, let alone in Spanish.

It's common to teach by listing cases (especially if you need to use little words). For example Ser is taught by the acronym DOCTOR, and Estar is taught by the acronym PLACE (see diagram above). However, I bought the yellow book above (which at first seems silly that they can write an entire book about one verb).

It's also common to say that "ser" is "to be" for permanent things, and "estar" is "to be" for temporary things.

The book stresses going to the Latin roots of the verb. Estar is related to "station" and "status" in English; and Ser is related to "essence" and "essential" in English.

So "my grandfather is dead" is interpreted as a "status", even though it is "permanent".
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 2nd, 2011 at 8:00:09 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Question for Nareed: Google says you can also say "lo dejas!", but I've never heard anyone say it this way.



"Toma este sobre y lo dejas en la oficina de Paco." Take this envelope and leave it in Paco's office.

BTW you made a statement, not a question ;)

Quote:

Question for Nareed 2: In English we often say "Let it go!" if we want to discontinue a line of conversation. I am not sure of the Spanish equvalent.



Not really. You may hear it in dubbed American TV shows, but not anywhere else.

And again I fail to see a question :P

Quote:

It is a curious translation since "dejar" means "allow, to let , to permit",
while the related nouns are about abandonment.
At the same time the idiomatic "dejar de" means to stop and to quit. Literally it is like you are saying "abandon your practice of chewing gum".



"Deja de hacer eso," Stop doing that
"Déjame hacer eso," Let me do that
"¿Me dejas hacer eso?" Can you let me do that?
"¿Me dejas aquí?" Can you let me off here?
"Déjame aquí," Let me off here.

Quote:

So if you see a sign that says "dejar de fumar", it does not mean you are permitted to smoke, but instead you must "abandon smoking" (i.e. you are not permitted to smoke).



No, the ad says "Nicotine patches may be useful to quit smoking."

A former smoker may say "Dejé de fumar," which can be translated as "I stopped smoking." She might also say "Dejé el cigarro," which means the same thing, but literally translates as "I left the cigarette." A woman could say "Dejé a mi marido," which means "I left my husband."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 3rd, 2011 at 6:20:55 AM permalink
Fecha: 3 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: codicia


I wanted the word for today to mean greed, but in Spanish there is not one word for greed in general, but a different ones depending on what the greed is for. Por ejempo, the word for June 1 was gula, which is a greed for food. Avidez is a greed for a fame/power. However, in English greed is almost always refers to an excessive desire for material things or money. The word for that in Spanish is codicia. A variant would be codicioso, which means greedy.

Time for some ejemplos.

Mi avaricia me obligó a hacerlo. = My greed made me do it.

' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsB/tve762-19650206-136.jpg]

Mr. Howell es codicioso. Él debe tener la mejor cabaña de la isla. = Mr. Howell is greedy. He must have the best hut of the island.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 3rd, 2011 at 7:21:54 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Palabra del día: codicia



codicia is the noun for greed
codiciar is the verb (could translate as "covet")
codicioso is the adjective "greedy"


In 1999 as the power of the PRI (the political power that has ruled in Mexico since the early 1930's) began to wane, it was possible to make a satirical comedy for the first time. La Le de Herodes is the story of how a small town janitor rides a wave of corruption and greed, to become the mayor and eventually a candidate for president. It's a little heavy handed, but has some funny moments.


In a similar vein, El Infierno is a dark comedy about drugs and violence in Mexico.
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
  • Threads: 117
  • Posts: 2306
Joined: Feb 8, 2011
June 3rd, 2011 at 12:32:02 PM permalink
Ok, Wizard, I have a question for you. It may seem easy at first glance, but how does the Spanish word "hombre" translate in English?

Ad please, don't anyone help him out.
OFFICIALLY and justifiably reclaimed my title as SuperHotBlonde!
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 3rd, 2011 at 2:24:07 PM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

Ok, Wizard, I have a question for you. It may seem easy at first glance, but how does the Spanish word "hombre" translate in English?

Ad please, don't anyone help him out.



I don't get it.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 3rd, 2011 at 10:15:11 PM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

Ok, Wizard, I have a question for you. It may seem easy at first glance, but how does the Spanish word "hombre" translate in English?



It just means "man" as far as I know. I suspect this is a trick question.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 3rd, 2011 at 10:29:00 PM permalink
Fecha: 4 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: Pereza


The word of the deal is pereza, which means sloth or laziness. A related word is perezoso, which means slothful/lazy, or the animal known as a sloth. Let's look at some ejemplos.

El perezoso está perezoso = The sloth is slothful.



Mrs. Howell es la perezosa de la isla. Ella nunca ayudó con nada, y todo el mundo lo sabe. = Mrs. Howell is the sloth of the island. She never helped with anything, and everybody knows it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 3rd, 2011 at 10:43:43 PM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

Ok, Wizard, I have a question for you. It may seem easy at first glance, but how does the Spanish word "hombre" translate in English?Ad please, don't anyone help him out.


I let the Wizard answer first, but as far as I know it just means man. It is related to the Latin word homo from which we also get humus, so there is the idea that man comes from the earth. Latin nouns were inflected so homo, was also hominem, as well as humus.


Pereza - Todo
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
  • Threads: 117
  • Posts: 2306
Joined: Feb 8, 2011
June 3rd, 2011 at 11:21:25 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

It just means "man" as far as I know. I suspect this is a trick question.

Well, I could be wrong, but I was told it means "brother", "shoulder" and "hat".
OFFICIALLY and justifiably reclaimed my title as SuperHotBlonde!
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
June 4th, 2011 at 4:39:26 AM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

Well, I could be wrong, but I was told it means "brother", "shoulder" and "hat".



Hombro is shoulder and hermano is brother. There's nothing close to hat that I am aware of.

As in English, a lot of words sound alike until you see them written.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 4th, 2011 at 5:25:30 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Mrs. Howell es la pereza de la isla. Ella nunca ayudó con nada, y todo el mundo lo sabe. = Mrs. Howell is the sloth of the island. She never helped with anything, and everybody knows it.



You keep describing people with a noun, after indicating the related adjective. In this case it should read "Mrs. Howell es la peresoza..."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 4th, 2011 at 5:28:45 AM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

Well, I could be wrong, but I was told it means "brother", "shoulder" and "hat".



Wat Ben said.

But "Cola" means tail, buttocks, a line of people, glue, a kind of nut, and it's a generic name for coke.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 4th, 2011 at 6:31:30 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

You keep describing people with a noun, after indicating the related adjective. In this case it should read "Mrs. Howell es la peresoza..."



Wouldn't that be saying "Mrs. Howell is the slothful"?

As a reminder, here is what I wrote, "Mrs. Howell es la pereza de la isla. " I thought pereza is sloth, and peresoza/peresozo is slothful.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 4th, 2011 at 6:40:32 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Wouldn't that be saying "Mrs. Howell is the slothful"?



No. Let's go back to the earlier word, greed.

When you said "Mr. Howell es la codicia...." You said "Mr. Howell is the greed..." What you means is "Mr. Howell is the greedy...." therefore "Mr. Howell es el codicioso..."

Codicia and pereza are nouns. Codiociosa y peresoza are adjectives. There's some confusion with the latter because the animal, sloth, is anmed "peresozo" in Spanish.

BTW Codicia also is the root of a slang expression, "codo," meaning a cheap person. It also means elbow.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 4th, 2011 at 7:01:05 AM permalink
Okay, thanks for the correction. I was trying to use sloth in a way like "she is the pride of the family." It is confusing because in English the animal is the same as the word sloth, which is as I think it should be.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 4th, 2011 at 7:55:17 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Okay, thanks for the correction. I was trying to use sloth in a way like "she is the pride of the family." It is confusing because in English the animal is the same as the word sloth, which is as I think it should be.



Linguists call changing the part of speech of a word (i.e. noun to adjective) without any change of spelling, by the technical term of conversion.

Conversion is particularly common in English because the basic form of nouns and verbs is identical in many cases. It is usually impossible in languages with grammatical genders, declensions or conjugations .
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 4th, 2011 at 11:11:31 PM permalink
Fecha: 5 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: Ira


Today's word is ira, which means wrath. Related words might be furor = fury/rage, or rabia = rage. Ira is also a name in some places. I knew a female Ira from Israel. It must be tough for her visiting Spanish speaking countries.

Time for an ejemplo.

El Skipper muestra su ira golpeando Gilligan con su sombrero . = The Skipper shows wrath by hitting gilligan with his hat.

' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.peoplequiz.com/images/quizzes/The-Skipper.jpg-4492.jpg]

Sorry, Nareed, but out of respect I have to stick with "Skipper" in both the English and Spanish. As I wrote in the entry for gula (gluttony), I think Skipper is more of a name than a title, and as such, I think translating it would lose its charm.

Let's look at some of the other words in that sentence.

muestra = in this context it means "shows."
su = his. "Google translate" used la and el, instead for words preceding ira and sombero, but if that is right, then I don't see why.
golpeando = hitting. The infinitive is golpear. To most "ar" verbs, the English "ing" is equivalent to the Spanish "ando."
sombrero = Everyone knows that means hat. Way back in this thread Paco said it comes from the word sombra (shade). It doesn't look like that cap casts much of a shadow, but if there is a more appropriate word for the thing on his head, I'm all ears.

Has anyone figured out the trend yet? If not, there are still two more words left in the series.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 4th, 2011 at 11:51:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Palabra del día: Ira



The related English words are , of course, irate and ire from Latin "iratus".

The words "anger" and "angry" are not Latin in origin but comes from an Old Norse word. As I said in the past, Old English, and Old Norse derived words are a small fraction of the words in present day English, but they are a huge percentage of the words we actually use in everyday speech and writing. Almost always the Germanic word is the everyday word "I am so angry", while the latin derived word is used in more elevated speech, "These issues make me so irate".

Quote: Insult puzzle

There are three words in the English language that end in "-gry". Two of them are angry and hungry. Everyone know the third. If you are too stupid to remember the third word on your own, then google the answer.

Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 5th, 2011 at 6:07:26 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

El Skipper que muestra su ira golpeando Gilligan con su sombrero . = The Skipper shows wrath by hitting gilligan with his hat.



The word "que" is superfluous. The way you wrote it translates as "The skipper who shows his anger by...."

Quote:

muestra = a sign of something.



Muestra in this context means "shows."


Quote:

Has anyone figured out the trend yet? If not, there are still two more words left in the series.



No, sorry. I'm not Catholic. :P
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Doc
Doc
  • Threads: 46
  • Posts: 7287
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
June 5th, 2011 at 8:29:28 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Almost always the Germanic word is the everyday word ..., while the latin derived word is used in more elevated speech....


Posts I read this morning seem to keep reminding me of things. In this case, it is an expression I cited (with an explanation) last fall:

"Avoid Latin derivatives. Use brief, terse, Anglo-Saxon monosyllables."
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 5th, 2011 at 11:05:56 AM permalink
Quote: Doc

"Avoid Latin derivatives. Use brief, terse, Anglo-Saxon monosyllables."



Thanks Doc, I never heard that before.


English derive (Spanish infinitive derivar), literally from Latin to de (“away”) + rivus (“a stream”). Or to draw away from a river.

In a similar manner a rival is someone who wants to share your river.
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
June 5th, 2011 at 3:12:38 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

"Avoid Latin derivatives. Use brief, terse, Anglo-Saxon monosyllables."



I believe that was from Ernest Hemingway's Kansas City Star stylebook?

(EvenBob, any confirmation on that?)
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Doc
Doc
  • Threads: 46
  • Posts: 7287
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
June 5th, 2011 at 3:18:17 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

I believe that was from Ernest Hemingway's Kansas City Star stylebook?


I'm not well-read on Hemingway. Was he big-time into sarcasm? That's what the Latin-derivatives admonition is all about.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 12:02:11 AM permalink
Fecha: 6 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: Envidiar


Today's word is envidiar, which is a verb meaning to be envious. Here are some related words:

envidia = envy, as a noun
envidioso = envious
celoso = jealous

Por supsuesto (of course), envious and jealous are practically interchangeable.

Tiempo para ver un ejemplo = Time to see an example.



Mary Ann tiene envidiosa de la belleza de Ginger. = Mary Ann is envious of Ginger's beauty. corrected, thx Nareed

p.s. PM me if you see where I'm going with tomorrow's word. Nareed, I already know you know. I just want to know who is paying attention.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28894
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
June 6th, 2011 at 12:52:14 AM permalink

/q]

Remember, Dawn Wells was the only member of the cast that had residuals written into her contract and she's made millions from it. Gilligan is always being shown somewhere in the world 24/7 for the last 45 years.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 2:07:00 AM permalink
I think I watched a grand total of two episodes of Gilligan's Island. I saw some tv show wherein a man-on-the-street asked passersby to sing the intro song and many were able to do it. I believe people used to call or write various coast guard units urging rescue efforts be made, perhaps on behalf of a camera crew and live audience that they thought were lost also.

Residuals. Smart girl. (Smart lawyer, probably).
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 5:24:56 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Mary Ann está envidioso de la belleza de Ginger. = Mary Ann is envious of Ginger's beauty.



There are two problems here. One is that while your example is techincally along the right lines, no one uses that word that way. A more apropriate example would be "Mary Ann tiene envidia de la belleza de Ginger."

The second is your perennial problem figuring out the gender in nouns and other words. It should be "envidiosA"


Quote:

p.s. PM me if you see where I'm going with tomorrow's word. Nareed, I already know you know. I just want to know who is paying attention.



I seriously don't know what's tomorrow's word. I suppose I could figure it out, or look it up, but I can't take the litany seriously.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28894
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
June 6th, 2011 at 6:01:52 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff



Residuals. Smart girl. (Smart lawyer, probably).



Smart agent, actually. Gilligan was not a mega hit like Bewitched or Beverly Hillbillies, it only lasted 3 seasons. But its been lumped into the 60's fun show category and will never die. It makes people feel good, silliness personified. Its harmless fun about a time that never really was, we just like to think it was.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 7:51:23 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

There are two problems here. One is that while your example is techincally along the right lines, no one uses that word that way. A more apropriate example would be "Mary Ann tiene envidia de la belleza de Ginger."



Thanks. I make no excuses for the gender of the adjective; sorry about that. I struggled quite a bit over whether to use ser, estar, or tener for the verb. GoogleTranslate went with ser. Since moods are worthy of estar when asking "¿como estás?" I thought it was appropriate in this situation too. Still, tener just felt right. Sin embargo, (however) it is my understanding that there are nine adjectives only that get used with tener:

tengo calor = I'm hot
tengo frio = I'm cold
tengo hambre = I'm hungry
tengo sed = I'm thirsty
tengo sueño = I'm sleepy
tengo miedo = I'm afraid
tengo cuidad = I'm careful
tengo prisa = I'm in a hurry
tengo razón = I'm right

So by adding envidioso to the list, it makes me wonder whether there is a closed list at all.

Quote: Nareed

I seriously don't know what's tomorrow's word. I suppose I could figure it out, or look it up, but I can't take the litany seriously.



Hmmm. A remark you made earlier made me think you did. I think odios might figure it out, but don't think he pays attention to this thread.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 8:01:37 AM permalink
Here are the last six words in the series, as a reminder. PM me if you can figure out the next one.

Spanish English
lujuria  lust
gula gluttony
codicia greed
pereza sloth
ira wrath
envidia envy
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 6th, 2011 at 9:10:15 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks. I make no excuses for the gender of the adjective; sorry about that. I struggled quite a bit over whether to use ser, estar, or tener for the verb. GoogleTranslate went with ser. Since moods are worthy of estar when asking "¿como estás?" I thought it was appropriate in this situation too. Still, tener just felt right. Sin embargo, (however) it is my understanding that there are nine adjectives only that get used with tener:

tengo calor = I'm hot
tengo frio = I'm cold
tengo hambre = I'm hungry
tengo sed = I'm thirsty
tengo sueño = I'm sleepy
tengo miedo = I'm afraid
tengo cuidad = I'm careful
tengo prisa = I'm in a hurry
tengo razón = I'm right

So by adding envidioso to the list, it makes me wonder whether there is a closed list at all.




tener miedo a/de + noun
tener miedo a/de + infinitive

tener dolor de
tener celos
tener confianza
tener cuidado
tener vergüenza

tener éxito
tener la culpa
tener suerte
tener lugar
tener ganas de
tener en cuenta

The better translation is "I feel hot", "I feel ..." . As I said earlier tener is related to tender as in tactile sensation. While it is normally translated as "have" it only means have in a personal tactile way. "Yo tengo una pluma" means not just that I have a pen, but I can feel it in my hand, not just that I own one.

The word "am" in English is so overused that it has multiple meanings. Professor Roger Lass professor of Linguistics at Edinburgh, describes the verb "to be" as "a collection of semantically related paradigm fragments".
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
June 6th, 2011 at 9:28:00 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

I think I watched a grand total of two episodes of Gilligan's Island. I saw some tv show wherein a man-on-the-street asked passersby to sing the intro song and many were able to do it. I believe people used to call or write various coast guard units urging rescue efforts be made, perhaps on behalf of a camera crew and live audience that they thought were lost also.

Residuals. Smart girl. (Smart lawyer, probably).



Jay Silverheels has never forgiven the lawyer who told him to take the money now and forget residuals. White man speaks with forked tongue.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 9:28:46 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The better translation is "I feel hot", "I feel ..." . As I said earlier tener is related to tender as in tactile sensation. While it is normally translated as "have" it only means have in a personal tactile way. "Yo tengo una pluma" means not just that I have a pen, but I can feel it in my hand, not just that I own one.



Thanks. If this is the case, how would one say they have something that is not immediately in his hands? For example, how would you say "I have a house in Chicago," if it was said in San Diego?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 9:41:01 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Jay Silverheels has never forgiven the lawyer who told him to take the money now and forget residuals. White man speaks with forked tongue.



Isn't "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" an old Indian proverb?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
June 6th, 2011 at 9:57:00 AM permalink
I believe Sitting Bull suggested us pale faces be more strict with our immigration rules than the Indians were ! Talk about chickens coming home to roost LOL
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
June 6th, 2011 at 10:43:40 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Jay Silverheels has never forgiven the lawyer who told him to take the money now and forget residuals. White man speaks with forked tongue.



Well, Tonto does mean fool in Spanish.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 11:12:14 AM permalink
Quote: benbakdoff

Well, Tonto does mean fool in Spanish.



Buen punto.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 12:41:52 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Still, tener just felt right. Sin embargo, (however) it is my understanding that there are nine adjectives only that get used with tener:



I haven't counted them, but I never knew there was a list, much less an alelgedly exhaustive one. Now, as to your examples, you can say "estoy sedienta" instead of "tengo sed." They're both right, but you won't hear the former much by itself. It would be more appropriate as a figure of speech as in "estoy sedienta de venganza," meaning "I'm hungry for revenge" (yes, I know I switched to a different verb in neglish. In Spanish vengence is associated with thirst, in english with hunger; a good translation rpeserves meaning and feel).


Quote:

Hmmm. A remark you made earlier made me think you did. I think odios might figure it out, but don't think he pays attention to this thread.



I know where you're going, I just don't know what follows. In fact, til you said you were posting certain related words, I hadn't noticed what you were doing. and I'm still not Catholic :P

Oh, as to your other question, if I had a house elsewhere I'd say "tengo una casa en Acapulco," for example.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 3:12:53 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

a good translation rpeserves meaning and feel).



Such is my dilemma. My main method for teaching myself Spanish is to read a children's book in Spanish, translated from English, and when I get stuck, see what it says in the English version. Here is a good example where this method goes wrong:

"Ya nunca volvería a estar todo el día sentado delante de la caja de un supermercado..."

and in English...

"Never again would he stand all day at a cash register..."

The main issue is that in Spanish the cashier sits down and in English he stands. I seem to vaguely recall that at the market in San Felipe, Mexico, the cashiers sit down. So while this would feel natural to someone reading it in Spanish in Mexico, the problem it might cause me is to think that sentado means to stand.

Quote: Nareed

Oh, as to your other question, if I had a house elsewhere I'd say "tengo una casa en Acapulco," for example.



That is what I would say too, but doesn't it betray the tactile sensation that tener is supposed to convey? And can I stay in your house for a week?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 3:31:55 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Such is my dilemma. My main method for teaching myself Spanish is to read a children's book in Spanish, translated from English, and when I get stuck, see what it says in the English version. Here is a good example where this method goes wrong:



One reason my English is so good is that I couldn't find many of the books I wanted to read translated to Spanish, so I began to read them in English. Some, though, I had read in Spanish and then re-read in English. the amount of mistakes, even egregious mistakes, I found in some translations was amazing.

So you probably should do something else.

Quote:

The main issue is that in Spanish the cashier sits down and in English he stands. I seem to vaguely recall that at the market in San Felipe, Mexico, the cashiers sit down.



FWIW, at Walmart, Sam's Club, Costco, Comercial Mexicana (La Comer), Chedrahui and Soriana, the principal Mexican supermarkets, I've never seen a cashier sit at the register.

Quote:

That is what I would say too, but doesn't it betray the tactile sensation that tener is supposed to convey?



Tener means "to have" I was not aware of a tactile sensation. It can also mean "to hold."

Quote:

And can I stay in your house for a week?



I'm not actually stupid enough to own a vacation house :P
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 3:33:28 PM permalink
Quote: benbakdoff

Well, Tonto does mean fool in Spanish.



In the dubbed version of The Lone Ranger, he was named "Toro"
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 3:46:10 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

So you probably should do something else.



I've already expressed that sentiment to myself. I'll figure out something. Lots of people have mentioned Rosetta Stone, but I tend to find mass-produced language-instruction products very dry and boring.

Quote: Nareed

FWIW, at Walmart, Sam's Club, Costco, Comercial Mexicana (La Comer), Chedrahui and Soriana, the principal Mexican supermarkets, I've never seen a cashier sit at the register.



I've been to the Sam's Club in Puerto Vallarta, and recall that being the case there. However, San Felipe is at least supposed to be a sleepy fishing town. Most of the time the single cashier has no customer at all and is sitting there staring out the door or chatting with another employee.

Quote: Nareed

I'm not actually stupid enough to own a vacation house :P



¡Aye caramba!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 4:11:00 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I've already expressed that sentiment to myself. I'll figure out something. Lots of people have mentioned Rosetta Stone, but I tend to find mass-produced language-instruction products very dry and boring.



My teacher used language textbooks, and he assigned work he amde himself rather than using the related work books.

Quote:

I've been to the Sam's Club in Puerto Vallarta, and recall that being the case there.



I have never been to Vallarta.

Quote:

However, San Felipe is at least supposed to be a sleepy fishing town. Most of the time the single cashier has no customer at all and is sitting there staring out the door or chatting with another employee.



Well, at small stores, miscelaneas and such, sometimes they do have seats.

Quote:

¡Aye caramba!



It's mere common sense. When you own a vacation house you're tied to that destination. You won't want to travel elsewhere, because then you're wasting the money you paid for the house, not to mention what you spend per year on utilities, maintenance, etc. Worse yet if you own a vacation hosue nearby, you feel compelled to hurry out of town nearly every weekend, otherwise why even have the house, right? So Fridays instead of taking it easy, you dive into traffic, spend money on gas and tolls, and drive away from town. Or, if you retain enough sanity not to do that, you drive on Saturday. Meaning instead of sleeping in and taking it easy Saturday morning, you get up early to beat the traffic, along with everyone else naturally, and then speng money on gas and tolls and drive away. And then of course you either return Sunday evening to a horrible traffic jam, with five-mile lines at the toll booth, or you return very early Monday morning.

So this house you bought to relax on weekends is a major source of stress.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 6th, 2011 at 8:48:34 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Tener means "to have" I was not aware of a tactile sensation. It can also mean "to hold."



That explanation was poor. I must ask for a mulligan on that one.

Tener comes from the same latin word that gives us "tender" in English. In latin the adverb form means tenderly, lovingly. The verb form means
I hold, have, grasp; possess, occupy, control.

In Spanish tener is always transitive, or it always has a direct object. Tengo una pluma. But you can use it for tactile sensations like "tengo calor" where the verb "have" is a poor translation. The verb "feel" is the best translation.

In English the verb "to have" is an Anglo Saxon derived word which has multiple meanings. When it is transitive, it is best translated as tener, but without the "feeling" definition. But it also has multiple intransitive auxiliary uses in English such as "I have visited Las Vegas" or "I had visted Las Vegas, before I learned to count cards". In these case we would use the Spanish verb "haber". These tenses are normally called perfect tense, "perfect indicative" and "pluperfect". Also "have at it" is a "phrasal verb" or idiomatic expressions like "have it out"; "have it your way", or "you had better do what you're told" do not have anything to do with the concept of tener.

In English we only have the two words that descended from the latin word, "tender" and "tenet" (a set of beliefs held by an organization). Although there are only two "descended" words the "derived" words are more numerous. We have abstain, attain, detain, obtain, retain, and sustain as a partial list.

The English sentence "I am cold" while very simple and common is just imprecise. We know that it means "I feel cold" and sometimes it means "I feel no emotion" by context. The sentence "I am a gambler" has an entirely different meaning for am.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
June 6th, 2011 at 9:14:17 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

But you can use it for tactile sensations like "tengo calor" where the verb "have" is a poor translation. The verb "feel" is the best translation.



Poor translations aside, I've never thought of being warm or cold as a tactile sensation. Tactile is related to touch. if I touch something hot I'd say "la tetera está caliente" "The teapot is hot." That's tactile, but not reflected in the language. Why should it be?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 6th, 2011 at 9:33:28 PM permalink
I am sure you have done this, but if not it is sometimes fun to feed the machine translations back into the translator back and forth and see how long they take to settle down into a the same translations. It is surprising how much they can differ.

Google Translator
"Ya nunca volvería a estar todo el día sentado delante de la caja de un supermercado..."
"I would never spend all day sitting in front of a supermarket checkout ..."
"Nunca me pasaría todo el día sentado frente a un supermercado ..."
"I never spend all day sitting in front of a supermarket ..."
"Nunca me paso todo el día sentado frente a un supermercado ..."
"I never spend all day sitting in front of a supermarket ..." [same as above/program ended]
--------------------------
Yahoo Babel Fish Translator
Ya nunca volvería a estar todo el día sentado delante de la caja de un supermercado...
Never it would already return to be all the day seated in front of the box of a supermarket…
Nunca volvería ya para ser todo el día asentado delante de la caja de un supermercado…
It would never return already to be all the day seated in front of the box of a supermarket…
Nunca volvería ya para ser todo el día asentado delante de la caja de un supermercado… [same as above/program ended]
--------------------------
Bing Translator
"Ya nunca volvería a estar todo el día sentado delante de la caja de un supermercado..."
"Already he would never again be all day sitting in front of a supermarket box..."

This translator did not have any variation. Probably because the original translation was so literal, and fairly terrible.
--------------------------
A buddy of mine, Ace Sarich, developed a device called a Phraselator, using research done by DARPA. He demonstrates it on Tech TV .

Basically, they gave up trying to sell a device that could translate general conversation (even simple conversation). The final device uses a bunch of predefined phrases that you can either speak or pull from a menu and translate them. Demonstration video. It does not translate back into English, but it asks questions that are designed to be answered with hand gestures.

Although the machine comes packaged with standard phrases it can be programmed with additional phrases. A police officer talks about how he programmed it with his individual phrases in Fort Myers for situations that they found to be appropriate.

Ace told me that the devoce comes in very handy in Afghanistan and Iraq where almost nobody speaks the language. You can use it on patrol duty, or doctors can use it when examining patients. In particular Western male doctors are frequently not permitted to examine female Muslim patients, or even to talk to them. They must relay information via their husbands.
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
June 6th, 2011 at 11:21:19 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Poor translations aside, I've never thought of being warm or cold as a tactile sensation. Tactile is related to touch. if I touch something hot I'd say "la tetera está caliente" "The teapot is hot." That's tactile, but not reflected in the language. Why should it be?



Let me try it another way.
Languages all have idiomatic expressions, which are figurative ways to describe something. A particularly opaque idiom in English is to "kick the bucket" where the literal meaning of "to kick" and "bucket" give you no clue how to translate the idiom. Usually you use a Spanish idiom like "estirar la pata" which either literally means to "stretch out your foot" or "stretch out your leg". As an English speaker, I have no idea why "stretching your foot out" means "to die" but neither do I know why "kicking the bucket" means to die.

Not all idioms are so obscure, such as "the 800 lb. gorilla in the room" or "hit it out of the ballpark" which are based on an old joke and an obvious baseball reference. But most English books describe "Tengo frío" as a Spanish idiom where "an idiom" is defined as an expression that cannot be immediately understood by analyzing its literal meaning. Although English speakers use the more easily understood sentences like "I'm cold", "I feel cold", and "It feels cold". Most English speakers do not ever ask themselves what "it" is in the sentence "it feels cold".

Although it is common in textbooks to call it an idiomatic phrase, I never thought that the phrase "tengo frío" should properly described that way. The original latin word had the concept of sensation or feeling to it. We would not get the English word tender or in Spanish tierno from the same latin word. If you look it up the Latin it has the possible translation of "soft".

But since it is described as an idiom, people do what the wizard did, and try to count the idioms using tener, that actually literally translate similar to "I have cold". But I admit I have trouble coming up with the proper word to describe the "feelings" associated with tener. "Sentir" is close "to sense", but that has it's own latin words. "Parece lisa al tacto" means to feel smooth to the touch. "Palpó el abdomen" he felt my abdomen. "Quisiera comer una hamburguesa" is sometimes translated as I feel like eating a hamburger. I settled on the word "tactile" since it's dictionary definition includes "to feel" and not always in a touching way.

It's like the sentence "mi abuelo está muerto" . Many people tell english speakers that estar is "to be" for temporary things, and "ser" is "to be" for permanent attributes. So an English speakers always say "mi abuelo es muerto" since they think death is a very permanent condition. My Oaxacan Spanish teacher told me that "death is not permanent in Mexico (unlike the USA) because they are Catholic and they celebrate the day of the dead". I knew she was reaching for that explanation, but I have heard it before. But once it was explained to me as "estar" is related to the English word "state" and "station" it made more sense. My grandfather is in the "state of death", but it is not essential to his very nature.


How would you translate the name of this hip hop song, Sentir La Vida ? Would it be "To Feel Alive" ?
  • Jump to: