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Nareed
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June 14th, 2011 at 4:28:12 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The words have to come from somewhere, and it has to make some kind of sense.



But slang also has to be used.

I can argue that "wright" means a kind of worker or maker, because I can find those definitions in the dictionary. But that's a formal word that has fallen into disuse except in combination words like playwright.

Now, here and there you find native Spanish speakers who cannot handle the phoneme SH. they pronounce it as CH or as S. If this impediment were more common, there could be an impression among Spanish speakers generally that the word "cheat" is slang for human or animal waste, used in particularly derogatory manner.

If I claimed that, you'd tell me I'm confusing it with another word. and you'd be right.

I'm willing to believe in some Spanish speaking country or region punta means something dirty in a kind of slang. But I repeat I've never heard of it.

Finally if used to mean the tip of something while mentioning that something, then it's a slang phrase, not a word. IN the way that saying "rat's ass" means something insignificant, but ass doesn't mean insignificant.
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June 14th, 2011 at 10:32:37 PM permalink
Fecha: 15 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: concha


Ayer (yesterday) Paco gave us a Spanish anatomy lesson with punta del clitoris. I've never been able to figure out where that is exactly, so today let's go with something a little bigger for today's Spanish slang. Today's word is concha. The legitimate meaning is shell. The slang meaning is vagina or cunt, depending on how graphic your source is.

Normally I like to post a picture at about this point, so forgive me for forgoing that this time. As el rey (the king), I'm relaxing the language standards for purposes of discussion of Spanish slang, but pictures should still be PG-13.

Ejemplo time.

Su concha huele a dulces = Her vagina smells like candy.

With that, I hand the ball over the more experienced Spanish speakers to elaborate.
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June 14th, 2011 at 10:55:11 PM permalink
Again I've no idea where you're getting this. I suspect South American sources.

In Mexico concha does mean shell, it's also the name of a type of pastry, and a vulgar word for laziness.

BTW I don't mind the occasional dirty word. But if you're making it a habit or a theme, then, if it's all the same to you, I'd rather sit the next few posts out.
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pacomartin
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June 14th, 2011 at 11:03:36 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Palabra del día: concha



La Concha is a hotel I stayed in at La Paz Baja South. So the word said in the right context is not vulgar, and does mean a sea shell.

Urban dictionary: South american insult. Concha means vagina in Argentina, Puerto Rico, Chile and sometimes in other Latin countries. Concha is also a sea shell but the shells are usually refered to as conchitas (little sea shells) to avoid saying cunt. While, concha-tu-madre is an insult, latin women do not always find the use of the word concha as a body part to be as offensive as english speaking women find cunt to be.
La concha de tu madre! = Your mothers cunt!
Concha es tu madre! = Your mother is a cunt!

(2) I love these sweet breads made in Mexico usually topped with a vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry flavoring in strips which make the bread resemble a seashell.
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June 14th, 2011 at 11:06:54 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Again I've no idea where you're getting this. I suspect South American sources.



My sources are primarily from Argentina.

Quote: Nareed

BTW I don't mind the occasional dirty word. But if you're making it a habit or a theme, then, if it's all the same to you, I'd rather sit the next few posts out.



Sorry. Tomorrow I'll tone it down.
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pacomartin
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June 14th, 2011 at 11:50:00 PM permalink
Non vulgar slang
Nareed
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June 15th, 2011 at 5:34:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My sources are primarily from Argentina.



That's a problem.

I know a little about South American slang, but not much and not beyond the mid-80s.


Quote:

Sorry. Tomorrow I'll tone it down.



Oh, I don't mean you shouldn't pursue this trend if you want to, just that I'm not interested.
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Nareed
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June 15th, 2011 at 9:07:31 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

(2) I love these sweet breads made in Mexico usually topped with a vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry flavoring in strips which make the bread resemble a seashell.



1) I'm aware that pastry in Spanish is "pan dulce." However, sweet breads in English means animal entrails, specifically the pancreas and neck glands, that for some reason are considered edible in some places. I guess adding chocolate, vanilla or strawberry flavoring on top couldn't make them less appetizing.

As a rule you should always distrust literal translations, particularly of terms made up of phrases rather than single words.

2) Conchas are some of the most popular pastries in Mexico. You'll see them in every bakery, no matter how fancy, and are commonly available for breakfast at many restaurants. Yet I've never seen even a remote resemblance to sea shells. I'm not saying that's what they're named after, just that I don't see it.
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June 15th, 2011 at 9:50:09 PM permalink
Fecha: 16 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: boludo


As promised, we'll lower the temperature today and go with something hopefully safe. Then again, I think punta was pretty tame, but the discussion on that lead us to some words you wouldn't say to your mother.

Today's word is boludo, which I think the closest English word would be dummy. Much like an insult here, it may come off as much stronger if made to someone you don't know than to a friend. In case Nareed should ask, this again is Argentinian in origin.


Lamont (the "dummy") and Fred. Whatever happened to Lamont anyway?

Ejemplo time

Es tan boludo que necesita desnudarse para contar a 21. = He is such a dummy that he needs to undress to count to 21.

p.s. Oops, there I go raising the temperature again. Sorry if I offend anyone.
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pacomartin
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June 15th, 2011 at 11:05:01 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: 16 de Junio, 2011 Palabra del día: boludo



It's a strange word of uncertain etymology. It seems to be a kind of mild insult in Argentina. It may mean "cojones grande" . But it also seems to be the name of a number of mountains including a Cerro Boludo in Texas.

In general Latino culture seems more likely to use mild insulting words as nicknames than Anglo culture.

It may come from a Hungarian word "bolond" which also means silly and foolish. It would be an unusual etymology, as Hungarian is not even an Indo-European language.
Nareed
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June 16th, 2011 at 4:17:21 AM permalink
I have to ask: what's with the Argentinian slang?

Is there a large Argie community in Vegas, or are you planning to visit Argentina?

Quote: Wizard

Que él como un boludo que necesita a desnudarse a contar hasta 21. = He is such a dummy that he needs to undress to count to 21.



What you said is: "The he as a dummy who needs to undress to in order to count to 21."

So here's a corrected version: "Es tan idiota que necesita desnudarse para contar a 21."

Sorry for not using your word of the day.
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June 16th, 2011 at 5:20:06 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I have to ask: what's with the Argentinian slang?

Is there a large Argie community in Vegas, or are you planning to visit Argentina?



I've been going through the lessons at Bueno, entonces, which teaches Argentine Spanish, with no apologies. For example, using vos, instead of tú, and pronouncing ll with a "sh" sound. I found this site after Paco linked to one of their videos.

My tutor is also from Argentina, but I don't think I can blame her, as she barely touches slang, and tries to teach proper Spanish, per the rules from the Palacio Real in Spain. Often she will mention common ways of saying things in the Americanized form of Mexican Spanish that you hear in the south-west US, but always with a remark that such deviations are not correct Spanish, to put it delicately.

Yes, I would like to go to Argentina this fall, as a matter of fact. No particular reason, other than I've always heard great things, and my tutor could hook me up with her friends there to show me around.

Quote: Nareed

So here's a corrected version: "Es tan idiota que necesita desnudarse para contar a 21."

Sorry for not using your word of the day.



Blame Google again. I thought their translation didn't look right, but I'm sure my efforts to improve it would only make it worse. For example, I wouldn't think to use your version because it doesn't have an el in there, so how do we even know we're talking about a man, which clearly is needed for the joke. Perhaps the punchline made it obvious. Thanks for the correction but I indeed substituted boludo for idiota in the original post.
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June 16th, 2011 at 5:45:15 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I've been going through the lessons at Bueno, entonces, which teaches Argentine Spanish, with no apologies. For example, using vos, instead of tú, and pronouncing ll with a "sh" sound. I found this site after Paco linked to one of their videos.



As far as I know that kind of language use is current only in Argentina, but perhaps it takes place in other parts of South America. In any case, using "vos" elsewhere will generate smiles, if not outright laughter and mockery. As will pronouncing LL and Y as SH.


Quote:

Yes, I would like to go to Argentina this fall, as a matter of fact. No particular reason, other than I've always heard great things, and my tutor could hook me up with her friends there to show me around.



Be sure to get your shots before you go :P


Quote:

Blame Google again.



Sorry, I can't. You should be doing the work yourself, not relying on an online translator. You won't gain fluency if you don't practice. Of course if you don't want fluency that's another matter.

Quote:

For example, I wouldn't think to use your version because it doesn't have an el in there, so how do we even know we're talking about a man, which clearly is needed for the joke. Perhaps the punchline made it obvious. Thanks for the correction but I indeed substituted boludo for idiota in the original post.



1) The photo made it obvious. You don't need to add pronouns when they're not needed. If the subject isn't known, then you need to say "el es tan...."

2) The joke/derisive phrase about undressing would not apply to a woman.
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June 16th, 2011 at 8:34:47 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

As far as I know that kind of language use is current only in Argentina, but perhaps it takes place in other parts of South America. In any case, using "vos" elsewhere will generate smiles, if not outright laughter and mockery. As will pronouncing LL and Y as SH.



Dang. I admit the "sh" sound for ll is take some getting used to. However, I hear lots of people here making something between a "j" and "sh" sound for y. In particular in the word "yo." For example, look how Azeneth pronounces it in the first word of this video. I'm pretty sure she is from Mexico. We discussed the pronunciation of "yo" way back in this thread.

Quote: Nareed

Be sure to get your shots before you go :P



I'll tell them you said that.

Quote: Nareed

Sorry, I can't. You should be doing the work yourself, not relying on an online translator. You won't gain fluency if you don't practice. Of course if you don't want fluency that's another matter.



I use the translator out of respect for you. You already help me a lot and didn't want you to have to untangle my horrible grammar as well. As bad as Google is, they do a much better job and I can. However, per your request I'll not rely on that entirely. Thanks again for all your help, and Paco too.
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Nareed
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June 16th, 2011 at 9:04:03 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Dang. I admit the "sh" sound for ll is take some getting used to. However, I hear lots of people here making something between a "j" and "sh" sound for y. In particular in the word "yo." For example, look how Azeneth pronounces it in the first word of this video. I'm pretty sure she is from Mexico. We discussed the pronunciation of "yo" way back in this thread.



Oh, there's a radio ad for an English school called Interlingua. the slogan is "!Vamos, say yes! Y di "sí" a la mejor escuela...." I don't remember it all. Anyway, where the announcer says "say yes" it sounds like "say Jess." In other ads they have a chorus of people saying the "¡Vamos, say yes!" and they all sound more like "Jess" than "yes."

I don't mind my pronunciation when speaking Spanish every day, but I do when speaking English. You heard me speak. be honest, please, did you notice anything odd that way when I used words with a Y in them?

Quote:

I'll tell them you said that.



By all means.

I know it's a petty way to get back at those Argies I can't stand, which are too numerous, but I'm only human.

Tell them this joke, too:

¿Como se suicida un Argentino?
Se sube a su ego y se deja caer.

Q: How does an Argenitnian commit suicide?
A: He jumps off the top of his ego.

I have others.

For your safety, though, I'll give you two tips:

1) don't ever utter the word Falklands
2) Remember it's a very religious country, so try not to insult God; or, as they call Him in Argentina, Maradona. (I am not kidding).

Quote:

I use the translator out of respect for you. You already help me a lot and didn't want you to have to untangle my horrible grammar as well. As bad as Google is, they do a much better job and I can. However, per your request I'll not rely on that entirely. Thanks again for all your help, and Paco too.



I appreciate your consideration, thank you. But I can be bothered to untangle a few examples per week. I swear I wont' ask for more than your soul in return, too :P
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pacomartin
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June 16th, 2011 at 11:55:55 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I know it's a petty way to get back at those Argies I can't stand, which are too numerous, but I'm only human.
Tell them this joke, too:
¿Como se suicida un Argentino?
Se sube a su ego y se deja caer.
Q: How does an Argenitnian commit suicide?
A: He jumps off the top of his ego.

I have others.
For your safety, though, I'll give you two tips:

1) don't ever utter the word Falklands
2) Remember it's a very religious country, so try not to insult God; or, as they call Him in Argentina, Maradona. (I am not kidding).



Blog
‘Desde el baño’ is an interesting site to help you get a grasp of Argentine slang. It is geared to people who speak Spanish, not English. But it has some good videos along the theme "This is called 'this' in Argentina, not 'that' ". You get to hear a lot of different people speaking Argintinean.

Serious Documentary
There is a new documentary called Argentina in Therapy .Buenos Aires is the psychoanalytic capital of the world boasting twice the number of therapists per head than New York. Through years of state terror and economic disaster millions of Argentines have sought refuge on the analyst's couch. Such a demand for an expensive and time consuming exercise suggests a neurosis on a national scale. Like the analyst, this film puts Argentina on the couch to find the roots causes of this unique obsession.

Take three minutes and watch the pre-title sequence. Buenos Aires has many obsessions: (1)psychoanalysis, (2) cosmetic surgery, (3)nostalgia for their lost wealth, (4) the tango.
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June 16th, 2011 at 12:22:34 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Blog
‘Desde el baño’ is an interesting site to help you get a grasp of Argentine slang.



Perhaps. But why would I want to?
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June 16th, 2011 at 1:04:35 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I don't mind my pronunciation when speaking Spanish every day, but I do when speaking English. You heard me speak. be honest, please, did you notice anything odd that way when I used words with a Y in them?



As I recall you English was fine. Otherwise, I just remember you were a soft talker. The next time I see you I'll go harder on you when it comes to pronunciation.

Quote: Nareed

Se sube a su ego y se deja caer. = He jumps off the top of his ego.



Why did you use subir for jump? I would have used saltar. Subir I thought meant, briefly, to "rise." To be more specific, to lift up, roll up, or wind up something. It is a word I am not very comfortable with, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much as echar.

Quote: Nareed

For your safety, though, I'll give you two tips:

1) don't ever utter the word Falklands
2) Remember it's a very religious country, so try not to insult God; or, as they call Him in Argentina, Maradona. (I am not kidding).



I won't profess my atheism over there, but make no promises about number 1. I've never understood Argentina's claim over the islands, and would like to get a straight answer on that.

Quote: Nareed

I appreciate your consideration, thank you. But I can be bothered to untangle a few examples per week. I swear I wont' ask for more than your soul in return, too :P



Thanks :-). I will definitely go easy on you as my slave in the afterlife.
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June 16th, 2011 at 2:02:56 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Again I've no idea where you're getting this. I suspect South American sources.

In Mexico concha does mean shell, it's also the name of a type of pastry, and a vulgar word for laziness.

BTW I don't mind the occasional dirty word. But if you're making it a habit or a theme, then, if it's all the same to you, I'd rather sit the next few posts out.



I'm with you, Nareed. There are so many beautiful words and phrases in Spanish without bringing up the bad ones.

Did I ever use those words? Sure, when I was 12 and had just learned them on the playground.
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June 16th, 2011 at 2:05:21 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard


Why did you use subir for jump? I would have used saltar. Subir I thought meant, briefly, to "rise." To be more specific, to lift up, roll up, or wind up something. It is a word I am not very comfortable with, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much as echar.

I won't profess my atheism over there, but make no promises about number 1. I've never understood Argentina's claim over the islands, and would like to get a straight answer on that. .



Se sube a su ego y se deja caer. = He jumps off the top of his ego.
I think it more literally translates as "he rises up his ego and he lets himself fall down". Nareed is translating it closer to the way we would say it in English.

A less well known part of history -
Quote: BBC in 2006


Britain's 'forgotten' invasion of Argentina
It's 200 years since Britain's invading army was routed from Buenos Aires - a mere footnote in British history, but, says military historian Peter Caddick-Adams, a historic event in the forging of friendship between the two countries that eclipses the Falklands fall-out.
Did I hear that right? Apparently we are now marking the bicentennial of the Reconquest of Buenos Aires by Argentine forces from the British in 1806 and the Argentine ambassador to Britain Federico Mirre is hosting a memorial.

If, as Winston Churchill said, battles are the punctuation marks of history, then the events in far off Argentina 200 years ago rate as a relatively minor comma. That said, what were the Brits doing there in the first place?

In fact this summer marks the first of two invasions of Buenos Aires in 1806 and 1807: military expeditions that took place within the framework of the Napoleonic Wars with France.

Spain, then a French ally (remember that it was a combined Spanish-French fleet that Nelson attacked off Cape Trafalgar in 1805) was at war with Great Britain and one way of hitting back was for the Brits to attack the Spanish colonies in South America.

The overall aim was to gain control of River Plate - a large estuary between what is now Argentina and Uruguay - by conquering the dominant city, Buenos Aires.
On 27 June 1806 a British force of 1,500 men under William Carr Beresford occupied the city, for about six weeks until surrendering in mid-August to colonial militia, led by Santiago de Liniers y Bremond, a French nobleman at the service of Spain.

A second, better-resourced invasion followed in May 1807, under Lieutenant-General John Whitelock, attacking Buenos Aires in July. After a couple of days of intense street fighting, the British surrendered to an army it had considered no more than a rabble.

After losing more than half his force, the British signed a ceasefire on 7 July and left for home, where Whitelock was court-martialled and discharged.

War often defines nationhood: just as America was said to have come of age in 1776, when British colonists declared their independence from the Crown, so Argentina felt it had come of age as a separate state, having fought for themselves against the British.

“ In 1900, Harrods had two branches, London and Buenos Aires, surely a sign that trade had cemented the two countries ”
Peter Caddick-Adams
Within three years of routing the British, Buenos Aires established a government independent from the Spanish Crown, anticipating the eventual declaration of Independence of Argentina of 1816. This sparked the Wars of Independence throughout South America that ended Spanish domination in 1826.
When dignitaries gather in London on Saturday to mark the 200th anniversary, I hope Ambassador Mirre remembers not the British invasion, but its lasting impact, therefore.

In some ways, Argentina has much to thank Britain for: a war which led to her independence. Furthermore, some of the British, and Irish, prisoners-of-war from 1806 and 1807 decided to stay and took part, voluntarily, in fighting the Spanish military machine elsewhere in South America, securing the independence also of Chile, Peru and Ecuador.

Amongst these was Irish-born William Brown, considered the founder of the Argentine navy, who led Argentine fleets, first against the Spanish, then Brazil in the 1820s.

This obscure Napoleonic campaign also saw key British generals, such as Beresford, and another, known as Robert "Black Bob" Craufurd, tested in war, before they later took on the French in the Peninsular War, the setting for the Sharpe novels and TV dramas starring Sean Bean.

Ironically by then, Spain had had enough of France - who had deposed the Spanish king and occupied most of the Iberian Peninsula - and its army was fighting alongside the British and Portuguese, led by the Duke of Wellington, to repel the French.
Of course, the Falkland Islands are never far from our minds when we think of Argentina, but they were never really a bone of contention until made into one by a military junta in 1982.

Discovered by English navigator John Davis in 1592, the French took possession and founded the settlement of Port Louis in 1764. The British, who claimed them on the grounds of their previous discovery, removed the French in 1765; meanwhile France had sold her rights to Spain who yielded the islands to Great Britain in 1771.

It was only in 1820 that the new country of Argentina laid claim to the islands, but the British declared them a crown colony in 1832.

Against this backdrop of benign diplomatic debate, to shift attention away from the faltering economy of General Galtieri's regime, the islands were invaded on 2 April 1982.

Britain retaliated, forcing the Argentine surrender in Port Stanley on 14 June, but Galtieri's military junta fell shortly afterwards.
The invasion, the 25th anniversary of which will be marked by "major celebrations" in London next year - was a great tragedy for British-Argentine relations. There remains a huge English-speaking community throughout Argentina, established over the last 200 years. In 1900, Harrods had two branches, London and Buenos Aires, surely a sign that trade had cemented the two countries.

In some ways, the Argentine embassy's event should observe the friendship between the two nations, who have been allies for 200 years and opponents for just a few months over that period. Our real war, should I say England's real war, with Argentina is football, nothing else.

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June 16th, 2011 at 2:28:34 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

As I recall you English was fine. Otherwise, I just remember you were a soft talker. The next time I see you I'll go harder on you when it comes to pronunciation.



I'll remember this. If you can pay attention to that, I'll buy you dinner :)


Quote:

Why did you use subir for jump? I would have used saltar. Subir I thought meant, briefly, to "rise."



Translation feel. The Spanish version literally means "He climbs to the top of his ego and let's himself fall off." (subir=to climb in this case). You won't ever hear in Spanish a description like "jumper" for this kind of suicide. You'll hear "Se tiró del techo de un edificio," perhaps, or "Se tiró del quinto piso" In this case "tiró" means "threw himself away."

As I said, when translating you need to first convey the meaning, then the style.

Consider this problem. Translate "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree" to Spanish. A literal translation would require further explanation (briefly "La manzana no cae lejos del árbol"). You'd be stating a self-evident fact, comparable to, say, "wave action erodes the sea shore." Neither conveys the meaning, which is that children tend to act like their parents.

So the translation is "De tal palo tal astilla," which literally means "From a stick (or log) a like splinter," or less literally "the splinters from a log are like the log." That's gibberish, right? But the original in Spanish means "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." Which is to say children tend to act like their parents.

BTW Q: Why do Argentinians rush to the street and look up during a thunderstorm?
A: They think God is taking snap shots.

Quote:

It is a word I am not very comfortable with, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much as echar.



That can be a problematic word.


Quote:

I won't profess my atheism over there, but make no promises about number 1. I've never understood Argentina's claim over the islands, and would like to get a straight answer on that.



Easy. The junta in the early 80s needed a distraction, and they figured the Brits wouldn't bother to do anything about it.

Oh, there's some back story going back to colonial times and maybe as far as the early XIX century, but it amounts to what I said.

Quote:

Thanks :-). I will definitely go easy on you as my slave in the afterlife.



We'll see who gets to go easy on whom :P
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June 16th, 2011 at 2:33:22 PM permalink
As I understand it, England has held the Falklands since 1833. Not to mention that the residents sided with England during the 1982 war. I really don't see that Argentina has any merit to their case. When I go there I will seek out their version.
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June 16th, 2011 at 2:43:47 PM permalink
Quote: benbakdoff

I'm with you, Nareed. There are so many beautiful words and phrases in Spanish without bringing up the bad ones.



That's so for many languages. I just can take so much vulgarity before I lose interest.
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June 16th, 2011 at 2:56:31 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

As I understand it, England has held the Falklands since 1833. Not to mention that the residents sided with England during the 1982 war. I really don't see that Argentina has any merit to their case. When I go there I will seek out their version.



Britain took Gibralter in the 18th century, but it's still a sore point with Spain.

The invasions was clearly meant to distract people from the decaying economy of General Galtieri's regime.

I know I've said this before, but I was in South America 37 years ago when children were in mobs through the streets of Bogota. It's not like that anymore, and fertility rates are as low or lower than the USA. You will meet more and more people with European style families of one or two children late in life.

Country Total fertility rate per woman
United States 2.06
Mexico 2.29
Chile 1.88
Uruguay 1.89
Suriname 1.95
Paraguay 2.11
Colombia 2.15
Brazil 2.18
South America 2.23
Argentina 2.31
Peru 2.32
Guyana 2.34
Ecuador 2.42
Venezuela 2.42
Bolivia 3.00
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June 16th, 2011 at 3:34:53 PM permalink
Generally speaking, there is a negative relationship between wealth and fertility. The fertility rate is Germany is 1.4 only. That puts a huge burden on the work force, because of a high retiree to worker ratio. They probably try to at least partially make up the difference with immigration, much to the chagrin of some, I'm sure.

By the way, it is redundant to say "Total fertility rate per woman." Just fertility rate will suffice, as the "per woman" is implied. The statistic means the average number of children a woman of child-bearing age will have.
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June 16th, 2011 at 5:27:34 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Generally speaking, there is a negative relationship between wealth and fertility. The fertility rate is Germany is 1.4 only. That puts a huge burden on the work force, because of a high retiree to worker ratio. They probably try to at least partially make up the difference with immigration, much to the chagrin of some, I'm sure.

By the way, it is redundant to say "Total fertility rate per woman." Just fertility rate will suffice, as the "per woman" is implied. The statistic means the average number of children a woman of child-bearing age will have.


I agree about "per woman", but that was the label that the census department uses, I simply left it alone.

In the USA, the TFR was 3.7 in the late 1950's, and we were the wealthiest country in the world. It went down to 1.8 in the late 1970's and has since crept up to 2.06. So sustained immigration pushes the rate up. It is back to 1.96 in France and United Kingdom.

I was in Columbia in the early 1970's when the TFR was 4.65. Talk about culture shock. There were literally thousands of children living on the streets.

I assume by "negative relationship" you mean "inverse relationship". I think everyone can agree that the two are related. China certainly credits a main reason for it's wealth to it's birth control policies. But Jiamusi city (Heilongjiang) had a TFR of 0.41 , the lowest ever recorded in the world. Ultimately there has to be a backlash from low fertility. Thailand has had a TFR of 1.61 for over a decade without an explosion of wealth. Russia has been paying women to give birth.

I just hope that as Latin America ceases it's population growth that there will be some distribution of wealth. I don't know if that will happen. The USA seems to be concentrating wealth into fewer hands.
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June 16th, 2011 at 5:32:10 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I just hope that as Latin America ceases it's population growth that there will be some distribution of wealth. I don't know if that will happen.



You have it backwards. As wealth increases, people have less children. For one thing they have better access to contraception, for another they begin to have children later in life.
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June 16th, 2011 at 8:36:05 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

You have it backwards. As wealth increases, people have less children. For one thing they have better access to contraception, for another they begin to have children later in life.



I think Paco gets that.

I don't have statistics to prove it, but I speculate there is an even stronger negative relationship between education and number of children.

Per a comment Paco made, a negative and inverse relationship mean the same thing (source).
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June 16th, 2011 at 9:09:13 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I don't have statistics to prove it, but I speculate there is an even stronger negative relationship between education and number of children.



It's probably difficult to isolate the effects of education from wealth, urbanization, and bearing children at a later age. Generally child bearing is negatively related to Development Index which takes into account wealth, education, and health. But there is beginning to be a backlash since fertility is going so low, that countries cannot maintain population even with international immigration. It may become popular to have 3 children again.

There is certainly a high correlation with religious beliefs and number of children. So you have a guy like Jon Huntsman, who is very wealthy and well educated, but involved in the Mormon religion. So he also has 5 children and adopts two more.

Israel and even the wealthiest Arab countries maintain high birth rates because of the widespread religious beliefs.

One of the big differences between Latin America and the USA is the widespread acceptance of motherhood in the USA among unwed teenage mothers. The age of marriage in Latin America is getting much older, so teenage pregnancy is much higher in the USA than in Mexico.

But women are also better educated in L.A. as well. In any event it will be roughly the year 2019-2020 that the growth rate of USA and Latin America and the Caribbean will become the same (including immigration).
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June 16th, 2011 at 10:09:40 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

One of the big differences between Latin America and the USA is the widespread acceptance of motherhood in the USA among unwed teenage mothers.



I'm familiar with that. For two years I worked at the Social Security office in Huntington Park, CA, which is a fairly tough Hispanic neighborhood in Los Angeles. It was not uncommon that after somebody was killed in a gang shooting three different women would come in asking for survivor benefits for his children born out of wedlock. The lobby was always filled with very young women (median age about 21) with infants in hand, applying for Social Security cards for them.
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June 16th, 2011 at 11:14:53 PM permalink
Fecha: 17 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: nafta


In our continuing series on Argentine slang, the word for the day is nafta. This should be easy to remember because NAFTA is normally associated with the North American Free Trade Agreement. However, in Argentina, nafta is slang for gasoline. The proper word for gasoline is petrol.



Ejemplo time.

Algunas personas dicen que es demasiado grande, utiliza demasiada nafta = Some folks say it's too big, uses too much gas.

Trivia time -- Name the song and artist of the above líricos (lyrcis). As always, no searching!
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June 17th, 2011 at 3:44:53 AM permalink

Nareed
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June 17th, 2011 at 5:01:53 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The proper word for gasoline is petrol.



In England, ironically enough :)

In Spanish the word for gasoline is "gasolina"

PetroleO is Spanish for oil, as in crude oil. the generic word for oil, as in any greasy fluid, is aceite.


Quote:

Ejemplo time.

Algunas personas dicen que es demasiado grande, utiliza demasiado nafta = Some folks say it's too big, uses too much gas.



Very good, except it's "...demasiadA nafta"
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June 17th, 2011 at 7:07:28 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Trivia time -- Name the song and artist of the above líricos (lyrcis). As always, no searching!



Missed that. the word you want is "letra." Yes, that also means letter, as in letter of the alphabet (the word for a written letter is carta, which also means card). But the words to a song are "la letra de una canción."

Lírico means related or pertaining to poetry, which does apply to song, but not the same way as in English.


BTW the photo is of a Mexican gas station.
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June 17th, 2011 at 7:45:59 AM permalink
Pink Cadillac picture: very clever, Paco.

demasiadA: Damn!!! I promised myself I wouldn't screw up the adjectives again. I was so anxious about other parts of the example that I just didn't think about the adjective. It is very hard for me to get used to feminine and masculine versions of each adjective. I owe you 25 push ups for that.

In Spanish the word for gasoline is "gasolina": According to spanishdict.com, petrol, nafta, and gasolina all seem accetpable.

Yes, I knew Pemex was a Mexican gas company. I've passed them many times. That is why I chose that picture.

Letras: Thanks. Somehow I thought I heard that before, but wasn't sure.
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June 17th, 2011 at 7:58:28 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

demasiadA: Damn!!! I promised myself I wouldn't screw up the adjectives again. I was so anxious about other parts of the example that I just didn't think about the adjective. It is very hard for me to get used to feminine and masculine versions of each adjective. I owe you 25 push ups for that.



I think I should fine you a quarter for every slip, but that seems like elementary school behavior on my part.

Quote:

In Spanish the word for gasoline is "gasolina": According to spanishdict.com, petrol, nafta, and gasolina all seem accetpable.



The link you gave shows the translations for the English "petrol" to Spanish. According to Spanish dictionaries, petrol is not a Spanish word.
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June 17th, 2011 at 8:07:22 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I think I should fine you a quarter for every slip, but that seems like elementary school behavior on my part.



That is why I suggested push ups. I quarter just won't mean anything to you or me. Push ups should only count towards really stupid mistakes you've warned me about. I accept those as punishments, and will do them the next time I see you.

Quote: Nareed

The link you gave shows the translations for the English "petrol" to Spanish. According to Spanish dictionaries, petrol is not a Spanish word.



You're right. We don't say "petrol" in the US, so I guess I just assumed it was a Spanish word. It sounds Spanish at least.
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June 17th, 2011 at 8:26:04 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That is why I suggested push ups. I quarter just won't mean anything to you or me. Push ups should only count towards really stupid mistakes you've warned me about. I accept those as punishments, and will do them the next time I see you.



Hm. Watching you do push ups does nothing for me. I'll think of something else...


Quote:

You're right. We don't say "petrol" in the US, so I guess I just assumed it was a Spanish word. It sounds Spanish at least.



As I explained, it's not. In England they say petrol, I assume in other parts of Britain too. I suppose it's short for "petroleum," which is long for being a short form of something.
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June 17th, 2011 at 8:47:28 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

In Spanish the word for gasoline is "gasolina"



1) utiliza demasiada gasolina
2) usa demasiada gasolina

Which verb is the best one to use in this phrase? Is it acceptable to use "usa" instead of "utiliza"?

Nareed, is the word duro a common slang word?

La Gasolina
Quote: La letra de Gasolina

Zumbale el mambo pa' q mis gatas prendan los motores,
Que se preparen q lo q viene es pa q le den, duro!

Mamita yo se que tu no te me va' a quitar (duro!)
Lo que me gusta es q tu te dejas llevar (duro!!)
To los weekenes ella sale a vacilar (duro!!)
Mi gata no para de janguiar porque

A ella le gusta la gasolina (dame mas gasolina)
Como le encanta la gasolina (dame mas gasolina) x2

Ella prende las turbinas,
No discrimina,
No se pierde ni un party de marquesina,
Se acicala hasta pa la esquina,
Luce tan bien q hasta la sombra le combina,
Asesina, me domina,
Anda en carro, motoras y limosinas,
Llena su tanque de adrenalina,
Cuando escucha el reggaeton en la cocina.

A ella le gusta la gasolina (dame mas gasolina!!)
Como le encanta la gasolina (dame mas gasolina!!) x4

Aqui nosotros somos los mejores,
No te me ajores,
En la pista nos llaman los matadores,
Haces q cualquiera se enamore,
Cuando bailas al ritmo de los tambores,
Esto va pa las gatas de to colores,
Pa las mayores, pa las menores,
Pa las que son mas zorras que los cazadores,
Pa las mujeres que no apagan sus motores.

Tenemo' tu y yo algo pendiente,
Tu me debes algo y lo sabes,
Conmigo ella se pierde,
No le rinde cuentas a nadie. x2

Subele el mambo pa' q mis gatas prendan los motores,
Subele el mambo pa' q mis gatas prendan los motores,
Subele el mambo pa' q mis gatas prendan los motores,
Que se preparen q lo q viene es pa q le den, duro!

Mamita yo se que tu no te me va' a quitar (duro!)
Lo que me gusta es q tu te dejas llevar (duro!!)
To los weekenes ella sale a vacilar (duro!!)
Mi gata no para de janguiar porq

A ella le gusta la gasolina (dame mas gasolina!!)
Como le encanta la gasolina (dame mas gasolina!!) x4

Nareed
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June 17th, 2011 at 8:53:07 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

1) utiliza demasiada gasolina
2) usa demasiada gasolina

Which verb is the best one to use in this phrase? Is it acceptable to use "usa" instead of "utiliza"?



They're both right.

Quote:

Nareed, is the word duro a common slang word?



Not that I know of. It means hard.
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June 17th, 2011 at 9:33:01 AM permalink
This thread reminds me of a sign in my grandpa's cuarto de baño.
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June 17th, 2011 at 3:39:22 PM permalink
Wizard
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June 17th, 2011 at 10:02:37 PM permalink
Fecha: 18 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: aspirar


That is enough of the Argentine slang. I thought would go over better than it did.

Today's word is aspirar, which means to breathe. It makes use of the root "spir," which shows up in words relating to breathing in both English and Spanish.

English ejemplos

Inspire. I assume this means to breathe life into a project.
Expire. The prefix "ex" means out of. So expire would mean out of breath, which certainly happens when you die.
Aspirator. Something that helps one breathe.

Spanish ejemplos

We already know aspirar = breathe.
Suspirar = sigh (breathe loudly).
Despiritado = spiritless (maybe the spirit isn't breathing?).
Respirar = also means to breathe.

Ejemplo frase (Example sentence/phrase)

Es difícil para apirar en el casino porque el humo del cigarrillos = It is difficult to breathe in the casino because of the cigarette smoke.

Note that I made porque (because) one word. It is my understand that if used in a question it is two words (por que), and one otherwise. I wasn't sure if I should put a "del" between humo and cigarrillos. I did because cigarrillos is normally a noun, but is used as an adjective. Not that I'm sure that is a correct reason. Yes, casino is the same word in English and Spanish.

Nareed's corrected version: Es difícil respirar en el casino por el humo de los cigarrillos.

By the way, nobody would say that in Panama, where smoking is prohibited in casinos. *Aplauso*.
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June 18th, 2011 at 2:55:26 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: 18 de Junio, 2011
Palabra del día: aspirar


That is enough of the Argentine slang. I thought would go over better than it did.

Today's word is aspirar, which means to breathe. It makes use of the root "spir," which shows up in words relating to breathing in both English and Spanish.



And of course, the Spanish do not use vacuum cleaners.
I think it is more proper to say Tengo que limpiar con la aspiradora "I need to clean with the vacuum cleaner.
But it may be possible to use asipirar as a verb literally "to vacuum".

The word, vacuum, got that meaning in English in the 20th century, obviously since the machines didn't exist before then. I assume that the Spanish simply attached a different verb, aspirar, to the machines. If you think about it makes sense, since "breathing machine" is more accurate than "machine that simulates the emptiness of outer space".

English speakers use the word "empty" derived from Anglo Saxon for the more mundane activities, while they use vacate for legal situations. The Spanish speaker uses vaciar where we would use "empty" as in Cómo vacío el cenicero.



Olivia Wilde inspires. Here she is kissing her beloved dog, Paco.
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June 18th, 2011 at 5:14:48 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That is enough of the Argentine slang.



Yay!

Quote:

Today's word is aspirar, which means to breathe. It makes use of the root "spir," which shows up in words relating to breathing in both English and Spanish.



As my brother likes to say: so near and yet so far.

Aspirar means "to breath in." Also "to aspire" and as Paco noted "to vacuum" as in using a vacuum cleaner. The appliance in question si called "aspiradora"

To breathe in Spanish is "respirar," which is related to English words like respiration

To breathe out is "exhalar," which means also "to exhale"


Quote:

Inspire. I assume this means to breathe life into a project.



In Spnaish "inspirar" is a synonym of to breathe in. But it also means 1) to come up with new ideas, 2) to suggest ideas or give direction to others, 3) to receive enlightenment from a supernatural source, as in divine inspiration.

Quote:

Expire. The prefix "ex" means out of. So expire would mean out of breath, which certainly happens when you die.



It may be related in its Latin origins to breathing, but what it means in Spanish, "expirar," is the end of a life, or the ending of something. Thus a temporary permit, such as a driver's license, expires after a certain time.

Quote:

Aspirator. Something that helps one breathe.



Look above. A machine that helps you breath is called either a respirator or a ventilator, I've heard doctors use both words. An aspirator would be a suction machine, which is only one half of the respiration cycle.


Quote:

Es difícil para apirar en el casino porque el humo del cigarrillos = It is difficult to breathe in the casino because of the cigarette smoke.



This is technically correct, since the difficulty in breathing for anti-smoking fetishists lies in in drawing air in, not in letting it out. But as a translation of the English phrase I'm afraid it's wrong.

The use of "para" is superfluous and renders the phrase meaningless.

Quote:

Note that I made porque (because) one word. It is my understand that if used in a question it is two words (por que), and one otherwise.



I'm not clear on that, either. And in spoken Spanish they sound exactly the same. I do know when used in a question the meaning is "why" and when used otherwise the meaning is "because."

Quote:

I wasn't sure if I should put a "del" between humo and cigarrillos. I did because cigarrillos is normally a noun, but is used as an adjective. Not that I'm sure that is a correct reason.



1) You are right, except the correct phrasing is "de los cigarrillos." "del" applies to singular nouns, "de los/las" applies to plural ones. "Cigarrillos" is the plural of "cigarillo"

2) In Mexico the common word for cigarette is "cigarro." In some Spanish speaking countries, I'm told, "cigarro" is used to say "cigar." In Mexico a "cigar" is called either a "puro" or an "habano," the latter even if the cigar doesn't come from Cuba.

So the phrase as you wrote it means "It is difficult to breathe in at the casino because the cigarette smoke." Note it reads like a sentence fragment. Anyone hearing it would prompt "because the cigarette smoke what?" Notice in english you don't say "because the cigarette smoke," but rather "because OF the cigarette smoke."

So the translation is: "Es difícil respirar en el casino por el humo de los cigarrillos." This translates back into English more like "It's difficult to breathe in the casino due to the cigarette smoke." The reason is that "because of" doesn't have an exact equivalent in Spanish. Now, while my Spanish translation is accurate, a better phrasing would be "Es difícil respirar en el casino debido al humo de los cigarrillos."

But you got all the genders right :)

Quote:

Yes, casino is the same word in English and Spanish.



Indeed. that's because it's an Italian word grafted into many languages. It means "small house." And I think that's why in some situations in English house and casino are equivalent.
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June 18th, 2011 at 6:29:38 AM permalink
Thanks for all the helpful comments. Indeed, I was wondering if there was a difference between aspirar and respirar.

I thought, in English at least, "casino" originally meant a community building for public gatherings. As a kid I didn't understand why you couldn't gamble at the "casino" on Catalina island, which is a music hall/theater.

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June 18th, 2011 at 6:31:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I thought, in English at least, "casino" originally meant a community building for public gatherings. As a kid I didn't understand why you couldn't gamble at the "casino" on Catalina island, which is a music hall/theater.



In Spanish, too. As I recall there have been discussions about it here and there in the forum.
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June 18th, 2011 at 6:39:00 AM permalink
Newport Casino opened in 1880.
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June 18th, 2011 at 7:04:53 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I thought, in English at least, "casino" originally meant a community building for public gatherings.


As Nareed pointed out, I think we have talked about this before. My souvenir map of Cairo (from visits in the early 1980s) shows a building labeled "Casino" near the great pyramids. There may be a gaming establishment in that vicinity today, but the facility I visited was just a cafeteria.

In Alexandria, my colleagues and I joined some of our Egyptian counterparts for dinner one night at a "casino", which was a sidewalk cafe. At dinner we mentioned that to us, the word "casino" usually meant a gambling establishment and that we had been to several of those at hotels in Cairo. Our new Egyptian friends were shocked -- they had no idea idea at all that there were gambling establishments in the city where they lived. I believe that Egyptians were not allowed in the gambling casinos, which were for tourists. I heard the same thing about the casinos in Nassau when I first visited there in the 70s, but I don't know whether that is still true.
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June 18th, 2011 at 7:43:14 AM permalink
Quote: Doc

As Nareed pointed out, I think we have talked about this before.



Found one:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/1937-dumb-question-casino-vs-gambling-hall-vs-resort/

All I did was type "casino" in the search box and then checked out 10,147 threads.

Seriously all did was type "selva" in the search box and check out one thread. That seemed the easier course.
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