Miscellaneous Discussion Thread II
Quote: AZDuffman
I do not see 100% and no controls. No controls is a stupid idea that makes no sense. The kind that "educated" people cheer but "smart" people laugh at. You might get like an airplane where autopilot does most of it but you are still going to have to do the "first and last mile" say getting out of your driveway to a connected road and then park it when you get to Wal-Mart.
I do. At some point the technology will be better than the human drivers and taking the controls away will save lives because humans are idiots.
(...and also, people like my sister nearly giving me whiplash braking for squirrels)
Quote: DRichQuote: AZDuffman
I do not see 100% and no controls. No controls is a stupid idea that makes no sense. The kind that "educated" people cheer but "smart" people laugh at. You might get like an airplane where autopilot does most of it but you are still going to have to do the "first and last mile" say getting out of your driveway to a connected road and then park it when you get to Wal-Mart.
I do. At some point the technology will be better than the human drivers and taking the controls away will save lives because humans are idiots.
link to original post
What is the demonstration that the car understands and adheres to something like Asimov's laws of robotics?
I'd selfishly prefer not to be run down by a Johnnycab with a self-destructive defect.
Quote: DieterQuote: DRichQuote: AZDuffman
I do not see 100% and no controls. No controls is a stupid idea that makes no sense. The kind that "educated" people cheer but "smart" people laugh at. You might get like an airplane where autopilot does most of it but you are still going to have to do the "first and last mile" say getting out of your driveway to a connected road and then park it when you get to Wal-Mart.
I do. At some point the technology will be better than the human drivers and taking the controls away will save lives because humans are idiots.
link to original post
What is the demonstration that the car understands and adheres to something like Asimov's laws of robotics?
I'd selfishly prefer not to be run down by a Johnnycab with a self-destructive defect.
link to original post
Nah, man, they're just going to give you a better stat, not a guarantee not to be flattened crossing the street.
Quote: AZDuffmanHow on earth can a driverless car be safe in these conditions?
You really meant to ask ‘How on earth can a car driven by that drunk kid, or addled elder, or distracted mother, or stoned junkie, or etc… be safe in these conditions.
Younger son said initial data says driverless cars TEN TIMES safer than the sum of ‘drivered’ cars. When Bubba kills Edna it’s not newsworthy. When a driverless car kills Edna it’s front page news.
I ‘feel’ like you do. It ‘seems’ unsafe to use a computer to drive.
This reminds me of the person who would drive 3000 miles cross country instead of flying because ‘flying isn’t safe’. ‘You have no control if there is a problem’.
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: AZDuffmanHow on earth can a driverless car be safe in these conditions?
You really meant to ask ‘How on earth can a car driven by that drunk kid, or addled elder, or distracted mother, or stoned junkie, or etc… be safe in these conditions.
Younger son said initial data says driverless cars TEN TIMES safer than the sum of ‘drivered’ cars. When Bubba kills Edna it’s not newsworthy. When a driverless car kills Edna it’s front page news.
I ‘feel’ like you do. It ‘seems’ unsafe to use a computer to drive.
This reminds me of the person who would drive 3000 miles cross country instead of flying because ‘flying isn’t safe’. ‘You have no control if there is a problem’.
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You are not reading all of what I said or you do not know about driving in snow and rain. We know it cannot be the later.
Ever use cruise in the rain? It is very dangerous. Almost got me killed once. Cruise cannot detect hydroplaning and just keeps going. On snow you have to make constant adjustments to your throttle to get and keep going. Anyone who has lived in snowy areas knows that this is done by "feel." An algorithm is not going to be able to do it. As an example there American fighter pilots are taught to use "feel" as they evaluate the situation then react. Nations like China, Russia, and India are more given a "rulebook" that tells you "if A then do B, if C then do D" That comes from how the rest of their societies are run. And it is why American fighter pilots always had the positive kill ratios.
This is also called "fuzzy logic" and is very difficult to program.
Another issue with the automated cars is how well are they going to age? They are being programmed by people who did not grow up in a family who had to do what they had to do to keep the Crown Vic on the road another year because the family could not afford to replace it that year. In college my air compressor seized. I had to get a belt that went around just the pulleys for the power steering and alternator. Car kept going another 2 years! I just had no AC. But how will doing this kind of thing affect an automated car? We don't know.
No flights no hotels . You can even get totally drunk and no worries.
Quote: Dieter
What is the demonstration that the car understands and adheres to something like Asimov's laws of robotics?
What percentage of human drivers today have even heard of Asimov's laws of robotics?
Quote: DRichQuote: Dieter
What is the demonstration that the car understands and adheres to something like Asimov's laws of robotics?
What percentage of human drivers today have even heard of Asimov's laws of robotics?
link to original post
Humans aren't subject to Asimov's laws of robotics. ;)
Heinlein discussed the possibility of genetically augmented pilots with superior reflexes and capabilities. He seemed to reach the conclusion that a non-augmented pilot was preferable, something about an innate conscience and sense of civic responsibility possibly being lost as the being deviated farther from the norm.
(Sorry, I don't remember which novel. Go read 'em all. ;) )
Quote: AZDuffman
Another issue with the automated cars is how well are they going to age? They are being programmed by people who did not grow up in a family who had to do what they had to do to keep the Crown Vic on the road another year because the family could not afford to replace it that year. In college my air compressor seized. I had to get a belt that went around just the pulleys for the power steering and alternator. Car kept going another 2 years! I just had no AC. But how will doing this kind of thing affect an automated car? We don't know.
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LOL...YOU don't know. I'm sure the thousands of engineers working for these multi-billion dollar car companies know.
My car is too high tech for run of the mill roadside garages now, not sure AAA could give me a jump anymore, idk. At least my battery isn't buried like in that video.
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: SOOPOOQuote: AZDuffmanHow on earth can a driverless car be safe in these conditions?
You really meant to ask ‘How on earth can a car driven by that drunk kid, or addled elder, or distracted mother, or stoned junkie, or etc… be safe in these conditions.
Younger son said initial data says driverless cars TEN TIMES safer than the sum of ‘drivered’ cars. When Bubba kills Edna it’s not newsworthy. When a driverless car kills Edna it’s front page news.
I ‘feel’ like you do. It ‘seems’ unsafe to use a computer to drive.
This reminds me of the person who would drive 3000 miles cross country instead of flying because ‘flying isn’t safe’. ‘You have no control if there is a problem’.
link to original post
You are not reading all of what I said or you do not know about driving in snow and rain. We know it cannot be the later.
Ever use cruise in the rain? It is very dangerous. Almost got me killed once. Cruise cannot detect hydroplaning and just keeps going. On snow you have to make constant adjustments to your throttle to get and keep going. Anyone who has lived in snowy areas knows that this is done by "feel." An algorithm is not going to be able to do it. As an example there American fighter pilots are taught to use "feel" as they evaluate the situation then react. Nations like China, Russia, and India are more given a "rulebook" that tells you "if A then do B, if C then do D" That comes from how the rest of their societies are run. And it is why American fighter pilots always had the positive kill ratios.
This is also called "fuzzy logic" and is very difficult to program.
Another issue with the automated cars is how well are they going to age? They are being programmed by people who did not grow up in a family who had to do what they had to do to keep the Crown Vic on the road another year because the family could not afford to replace it that year. In college my air compressor seized. I had to get a belt that went around just the pulleys for the power steering and alternator. Car kept going another 2 years! I just had no AC. But how will doing this kind of thing affect an automated car? We don't know.
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You are missing the point. All the crap you wrote IS INCLUDED in the safety statistics comparing human versus non human control. Non human control is 10 times safer. That factors in ALL of the stuff you mentioned. And the stuff I mentioned.
Edit….. I will agree with you on this…. It is possible the computer driven car will not function if not safe…. thus forcing bad breaks to be fixed before allowing the car to ride. You can think that’s bad, I can think that’s good.
Quote: SOOPOO
You are missing the point. All the crap you wrote IS INCLUDED in the safety statistics comparing human versus non human control. Non human control is 10 times safer. That factors in ALL of the stuff you mentioned. And the stuff I mentioned.
Edit….. I will agree with you on this…. It is possible the computer driven car will not function if not safe…. thus forcing bad breaks to be fixed before allowing the car to ride. You can think that’s bad, I can think that’s good.
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I have had lots of bad breaks in my life. Bad brakes I try to replace before they go bad......
I do think it is bad if the car decides not to move because something is not showing "right." We have safety inspections in most states to keep up on that. My issue is all of this required tech makes cars unaffordable to too many people.
Back to stats, the stats for AVs are confined to a few geofenced areas. In fleets they are really kept up on all maintenance. When they get to the masses this will not be the case. How are AVs up there in Buffalo going to do when salt and snow get all over the car and interfere with things? Not taking driving on snow like I did above. Talking when half the cars on the road are covered in snow and salt as happens until it is nice enough to hit the car wash? (I miss Delta Sonic, btw)
Put another way, it is like the hockey team that looks great on paper, but they have to play on ice.
Quote: TigerWuQuote: AZDuffman
Another issue with the automated cars is how well are they going to age? They are being programmed by people who did not grow up in a family who had to do what they had to do to keep the Crown Vic on the road another year because the family could not afford to replace it that year. In college my air compressor seized. I had to get a belt that went around just the pulleys for the power steering and alternator. Car kept going another 2 years! I just had no AC. But how will doing this kind of thing affect an automated car? We don't know.
link to original post
LOL...YOU don't know. I'm sure the thousands of engineers working for these multi-billion dollar car companies know.
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Don't count on it. These same engineers made engines like the Northstar V-8 back to the 1970s engines with iron blocks but aluminum heads. Neither held up well. Auto engineers ignore the long term all the time.
Oh, I forgot. Same engineers that made engines that could only have spark plugs changed from underneath.
"Safe, human-level self-driving, however, isn't somewhere up around the bend, according to Navy veteran and engineer Michael DeKort. The costs, he says, in human lives, time and money, are too high for true, safe self-driving to ever be achieved... The systems are getting better — they have become good enough to play the odds, DeKort said. But there are potentially insurmountable limitations and vulnerabilities baked into these systems that, according to DeKort and other experts, mean that, as it stands, human-level self-driving is likely not achievable."
Everything in this article makes logical sense. Read it. I've been driving for 60 years and I used to be a professional driver when I had the cab company. There is no way we will ever develop AI that's as good as the human brain for driving a car.
https://www.thestreet.com/automotive/whistleblower-explains-why-safe-full-self-driving-cant-happen#:~:text=The%20systems%20are%20getting%20better,driving%20is%20likely%20not%20achievable.
Quote: mcallister3200Those engineers are retired or dead now.
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And replaced by new ones who will keep doing the same things. They will keep designing things that the guy at the plant says, "nice, too bad we can't build that" and the poor mechanic at the garage has to try to fix in the allotted time but this is next to impossible because it was not designed to be worked on.
Things in life do not change. The scenery changes, human nature does not.
Quote: EvenBobI have long taken the position that self-driving cars will never work. This article agrees with me.
"Safe, human-level self-driving, however, isn't somewhere up around the bend, according to Navy veteran and engineer Michael DeKort. The costs, he says, in human lives, time and money, are too high for true, safe self-driving to ever be achieved... The systems are getting better — they have become good enough to play the odds, DeKort said. But there are potentially insurmountable limitations and vulnerabilities baked into these systems that, according to DeKort and other experts, mean that, as it stands, human-level self-driving is likely not achievable."
Everything in this article makes logical sense. Read it. I've been driving for 60 years and I used to be a professional driver when I had the cab company. There is no way we will ever develop AI that's as good as the human brain for driving a car.
https://www.thestreet.com/automotive/whistleblower-explains-why-safe-full-self-driving-cant-happen#:~:text=The%20systems%20are%20getting%20better,driving%20is%20likely%20not%20achievable.
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Kind of says what I have been saying. I still say it really boils down to the types who are engineering these things have not spent enough time out driving in the real world.
Remember RD# addresses and how hard they could be to find? Enhanced 911 has mostly gotten rid of those, but how long and how much effort for just that?
I wrote to a YT daily auto mag that they need to stop being cheerleaders for AV and start being journalists. The guy did exchange an email or two, but he ended up saying the were supporting it and that was that. Part of what made me write was the day before we had road construction and they did one of those temporary crossovers because they were paving the exit ramp. The signage was not the best and you had to really decide fast.
No way an AV would ever figure this out.
Quote: AZDuffmanThey had dimming high beams in the 60s.
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I understand that they had these on for example the the Lincoln Continentals and Mark IVs of the 1970s, but did they work? We still have one of those Marks IVs in the family and I don't think the auto high beam ever worked reliably.
More interesting are the innovations in a couple of other classics we still have, the speedometer on the mid 1960s Continental, the steering column mounted automatic transmission lever,
and the shape of the 1958 Lincoln Mark III convertible.
Who cares about technological features when you're driving around in a car like that!
Quote: MDawgQuote: AZDuffmanThey had dimming high beams in the 60s.
link to original post
I understand that they had these on for example the the Lincoln Continentals and Mark IVs of the 1970s, but did they work? We still have one of those Marks IVs in the family and I don't think the auto high beam ever worked reliably.
More interesting are the innovations in a couple of other classics we still have, the speedometer on the mid 1960s Continental, the steering column mounted automatic transmission lever,
My grandfather's 60 Coupe DeVille had them and they worked until the sensor got dirty behind the grille. Don Draper's 62 Caddy (I think 62) had the sight for it on the dash. For some reason you stopped hearing about that feature in the 70s and 80s.
The Mercury Turnpike Cruiser had some neat features.
Quote: wikipedia
The interior of the Turnpike Cruiser offered several features distinct from other Mercury sedans. To aid forward visibility, a flat-top deep-dish steering wheel was fitted (to match the curve of the instrument panel).[21][24] Alongside a tachometer ("to measure engine efficiency"[14]),[9] the instrument panel was fitted with a clock to calculate average speed and a trip odometer (effectively, a trip computer).[21] One of the first memory seats, "Seat-O-Matic" was programmable and moved down and back when the ignition was off.[21][25] While not equipped with cruise control, in 1958, the Turnpike Cruiser (alongside all Mercurys) was introduced with a programmable speed warning, setting off a warning if a preset speed was exceeded.[25]
Quote: EvenBobI have long taken the position that self-driving cars will never work. This article agrees with me.
"Safe, human-level self-driving, however, isn't somewhere up around the bend, according to Navy veteran and engineer Michael DeKort. The costs, he says, in human lives, time and money, are too high for true, safe self-driving to ever be achieved... The systems are getting better — they have become good enough to play the odds, DeKort said. But there are potentially insurmountable limitations and vulnerabilities baked into these systems that, according to DeKort and other experts, mean that, as it stands, human-level self-driving is likely not achievable."
Everything in this article makes logical sense. Read it. I've been driving for 60 years and I used to be a professional driver when I had the cab company. There is no way we will ever develop AI that's as good as the human brain for driving a car.
https://www.thestreet.com/automotive/whistleblower-explains-why-safe-full-self-driving-cant-happen#:~:text=The%20systems%20are%20getting%20better,driving%20is%20likely%20not%20achievable.
link to original post
This article is already outdated. It was written all the way back in Sept 2023.
Quote: unJonNice to see you back posting EB
link to original post
I guess someone finally noticed his "I've fallen, and I can't get up" alarm has been going off.
thinking about China -
the population of the World is about 7.9 billion
the population of China is about 1.4 billion
the population of the U.S. is about 332 million -
less than one fourth of that of China -
which helps explain why China is such a ferocious and effective competitor to the U.S. in tech and business and in military capability
there are 195 countries in the world - of course many of the countries are very small - but still
more that one out every 6 people in the world is from China_______pretty amazing to think about that
.
Quote: lilredrooster.
thought for the day -
the population of the World is about 7.9 billion
the population of China is about 1.4 billion
the population of the U.S. is about 332 million -
less than one fourth of that of China -
which helps explain why China is such a ferocious and capable competitor to the U.S. in tech and business and in military stuff
there are 195 countries in the world - of course many of the countries are very small - but still
more that one out every 6 people in the world is from China
.
link to original post
I just celebrated 1.82 billion seconds being alive.
Quote: lilredrooster.
thinking about China -
the population of the World is about 7.9 billion
the population of China is about 1.4 billion
the population of the U.S. is about 332 million -
less than one fourth of that of China -
which helps explain why China is such a ferocious and effective competitor to the U.S. in tech and business and in military capability
there are 195 countries in the world - of course many of the countries are very small - but still
more that one out every 6 people in the world is from China_______pretty amazing to think about that
.
link to original post
Seems like it used to be 1 in 4.
The huge population of southeast Asia to include Indonesia is truly amazing. Why so many people in this one corner of the world? And why has it been so dominated by European nations pre-1960s?
The Spirit of ’76: Lincoln Continental Mark IV, When Blass Was Class
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a22060220/the-spirit-of-76-lincoln-continental-mark-iv-when-blass-was-class/
Quote: ChumpChangeI think I got a short ride in one of these one time when these were relevant.
The Spirit of ’76: Lincoln Continental Mark IV, When Blass Was Class
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a22060220/the-spirit-of-76-lincoln-continental-mark-iv-when-blass-was-class/
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9 gallons to the mile but rode like it was on a cloud!
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: ChumpChangeI think I got a short ride in one of these one time when these were relevant.
The Spirit of ’76: Lincoln Continental Mark IV, When Blass Was Class
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a22060220/the-spirit-of-76-lincoln-continental-mark-iv-when-blass-was-class/
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9 gallons to the mile but rode like it was on a cloud!
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I understand that certain vehicles are rated in "smiles per gallon".
Quote: AZDuffman
9 gallons to the mile but rode like it was on a cloud!
I have only owned one eight cylinder car, my 1990 Cadillac Allante . I think it got around 15mpg (that car was a $53k piece of crap). My six cylinder Isuzu Rodeo only got 12mpg.
Quote: ChumpChangeI think I got a short ride in one of these one time when these were relevant.
The Spirit of ’76: Lincoln Continental Mark IV, When Blass Was Class
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a22060220/the-spirit-of-76-lincoln-continental-mark-iv-when-blass-was-class/
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When you're a kid and your parents have a car like that, you will tend to slam the hell out of the car doors of your friends' parents' cars. You get used to those heavy doors and the ones on even something like a Mercedes are too flimsy to handle the shove needed to close the door on a Mark IV.
My family kept those cars from the 1950s ones to the 1970s ones, and has kept driving them occasionally, and you didn't see many out there in the 1990s, and pretty much see none these days.
Quote: DRichQuote: AZDuffman
9 gallons to the mile but rode like it was on a cloud!
I have only owned one eight cylinder car, my 1990 Cadillac Allante . I think it got around 15mpg (that car was a $53k piece of crap). My six cylinder Isuzu Rodeo only got 12mpg.
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That was a 1990 V-8 with a 4 speed automatic. Pre-1980 or so the trannys were 3 speed and the big cars were 500lb+ heavier. Mid 60s to late 70s your domestic V-8 goit 10-11 mpg in the city maybe 14-15 on the highway.
Lots of it is about weight. I am assuming the Rodeo is 4wd? Pre-2000 or so that really killed mpg. It added lots of unsprung weight.
Weight affects mpg more than most people realize.
Does cruise control save gas? | Kia British Dominica
Cruise control can help you become more fuel-efficient and can help you save an average of 7-14% on gas thanks to its ability to maintain a continuous speed. In comparison, the constant change in acceleration and deceleration of the driver placing their foot over the pedals can eat more gas.
Quote: rxwineQuote: unJonNice to see you back posting EB
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I guess someone finally noticed his "I've fallen, and I can't get up" alarm has been going off.
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Warning: This is an insulting comment. It is not acceptable to make age-ism taunts. Knock it off. Or else.
Quote: gordonm888Quote: rxwineQuote: unJonNice to see you back posting EB
link to original post
I guess someone finally noticed his "I've fallen, and I can't get up" alarm has been going off.
link to original post
Warning: This is an insulting comment. It is not acceptable to make age-ism taunts. Knock it off. Or else.
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Well, as I plan to get older, I laugh in the face of an ageism charge. And if I don't get older, big deal. So, just give me a ban.
Quote: ChumpChangeMy SUV weighs about 1,000 pounds less than what I was driving in the late 80's that was mid-70's. Get double the gas mileage too.
Does cruise control save gas? | Kia British Dominica
Cruise control can help you become more fuel-efficient and can help you save an average of 7-14% on gas thanks to its ability to maintain a continuous speed. In comparison, the constant change in acceleration and deceleration of the driver placing their foot over the pedals can eat more gas.
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Cruise will usually save gas but some things it is not as good at. Anticipating hills and best way to get up to speed come to mind. On an old school Mobilgas economy run a pro driver would probably beat it. Day to day though it probably saves.
Quote: rxwineOn a long enough trip, cruise control was worth it just to not have my foot jammed in place to keep the accelerator down.
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Ever since they came out with the smart cruise control that speeds up and slows down as necessary, I can not live without it.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineOn a long enough trip, cruise control was worth it just to not have my foot jammed in place to keep the accelerator down.
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Ever since they came out with the smart cruise control that speeds up and slows down as necessary, I can not live without it.
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I tried one for a while.
There was a particular overpass in Knoxville that kept triggering the cruise as stopped traffic and slamming on the brakes.
After several rounds of nearly getting rear-ended, I'm pretty sure that disabling that "feature" was the right choice.
One of our other cars, which is almost new but one of those ultra expensive European cars, its auto pilot and adaptive cruise control have never faltered under any circumstances, stormy or not.
In general, there are levels of auto pilot and adaptive cruise control, and for the most part the newer and more expensive the car, the better these work. What this translates to is that in some cars you might feel relaxed and comfortable with letting the car take over almost completely, and in other cars you'll always have to be en garde.
https://youtu.be/tpdUGHXTHY4?t=339
we here on Earth are traveling about 𝟔𝟕,𝟎𝟎𝟎 𝐦𝐢𝐥𝐞𝐬 𝐩𝐞𝐫 𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐫 as we revolve around the Sun but we can't feel the motion at all
maybe everybody here knows this already, but still I posted it because I find it amazing when you think about it
I find much about the Universe amazing and awe inspiring
I tried to read Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time" but I admit it that much of it was just too hard for me to understand
but what a great genius he is - even if I didn't understand a lot of it, it was very easy to recognize his greatness
https://www.space.com/33527-how-fast-is-earth-moving.html
.
The new Calif. minimum wage law is now in effect. $20/hr for fast food ee's. So while, here in GA, I can buy a BK bundle of 3 Whoppers, three cheeseburgers, AND three small fries for $17.49, folks in CA will probably have to cash in their Crypto investment. I find it hard to imagine paying a counter server/cash register attendant/dish washer/fry cook $800/wk or $40k/yr. for their minimal skill set. But here is the good news for the rest of us: their tax burden (fed, state, SS, medicare will be huge. Thanks California.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigym
The new Calif. minimum wage law is now in effect. $20/hr for fast food ee's. So while, here in GA, I can buy a BK bundle of 3 Whoppers, three cheeseburgers, AND three small fries for $17.49, folks in CA will probably have to cash in their Crypto investment. I find it hard to imagine paying a counter server/cash register attendant/dish washer/fry cook $800/wk or $40k/yr. for their minimal skill set. But here is the good news for the rest of us: their tax burden (fed, state, SS, medicare will be huge. Thanks California.
tuttigym
link to original post
I honestly have no idea if there is any correlation/causality here, but there is a "meme" currently making the rounds showing the supposed before and after of the $20 minimum wage price increase in California. It shows a picture of a fast food menu before the min. wage increase, and a picture of after. The after picture was supposedly taken the day the law took effect. It shows price increases of between five and 20 cents per item. The majority of comments about the picture are things like, "That's it?? That's all the price increase was? That's nothing."
Quote: TigerWuQuote: tuttigym
The new Calif. minimum wage law is now in effect. $20/hr for fast food ee's. So while, here in GA, I can buy a BK bundle of 3 Whoppers, three cheeseburgers, AND three small fries for $17.49, folks in CA will probably have to cash in their Crypto investment. I find it hard to imagine paying a counter server/cash register attendant/dish washer/fry cook $800/wk or $40k/yr. for their minimal skill set. But here is the good news for the rest of us: their tax burden (fed, state, SS, medicare will be huge. Thanks California.
tuttigym
link to original post
I honestly have no idea if there is any correlation/causality here, but there is a "meme" currently making the rounds showing the supposed before and after of the $20 minimum wage price increase in California. It shows a picture of a fast food menu before the min. wage increase, and a picture of after. The after picture was supposedly taken the day the law took effect. It shows price increases of between five and 20 cents per item. The majority of comments about the picture are things like, "That's it?? That's all the price increase was? That's nothing."
link to original post
The crazy thing about it all is it is not a new minimum wage law it is a minimum wage for some people at some places law. Panera got themselves exempted.
