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Nathan
Nathan
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February 9th, 2018 at 1:41:29 AM permalink
Quote: BedWetterBetter

Eh, I've some seen some shenanigans with Blackjack Dealers in AC and PA switching multiple times in a matter of minutes that would make you question that notion. Especially when it's the same two dealers coming in, burning a card, dealing a few hands and then switching over and over until it seems the house has winning cards. Everyone at the table got up in disgust and asked "Are they trying to sabotage the game so blatantly?"

But I digress, I recently saw an interesting BJ game at Caesar's AC where the dealer was dealing the cards as fast as she could without paying much attention to the cards. One hand she drew to 18 and a guy had two double down hands of 4-7-J & 8-3 -6. She paid out both his double downs without so much as looking at his point totals.

So I thought, if she was that careless and oblivious to what was going on, I would sit down and try to make a few bucks before the jig was up. Somehow, I drew the ire of this dealer as she started to deal even faster when I sat down. I had a hard 13 vs dealer 5, she turns over a 4 and reaches in to take my money. I quickly stop her and say "Hold on, the hand's not over yet." She feigns regret saying "Oh, sorry" Pulls a card and then reaches in for the money... But the card was a 4, so I protest "Hand's still not over, keep going. Final card a 9 for the bust and an angry dealer now having to pay out.

This went on for a while with the dealer making more mistakes ( like Busting with 22 and quickly taking all bets off the table before anyone realized, except me of course) and me advising that maybe she should slow down and pay attention to the cards. She then gets agitated and says "So what if I make a mistake? They can be undone and my supervisor will tell me when I'm not doing my job right."

I shrugged and said "That's fine, but wouldn't it be easier to do it right the first time instead of wasting time making mistakes?" Again, no change from this dealer, so I sat out and watched others deal with her. She made come classic mistakes such as players hits 16, gets a 6 and dealer pays them out. Player hits Soft 14, pulls a Q and she tries to take the money before he even draws another card.

And the funniest one was a Double down 9-2 vs dealer Ace. She offers Insurance and nobody buys it, she checks for Blackjack and then turns up her card... Everyone thinks she has BJ as that is what she is pantomiming with the card flip. However, it was another Ace in the hole and everyone jumps with excitement and yells "STOP!"

She calls the floor person over and he declares that the hand will continue nd he watches the hand play out. So the person with 11 goes to double down and gets a 10, he happily waits for the dealer to draw a card and it's a K, followed by a J. Before he can count his winnings the dealer starts taking his chips and he shouts "WHAT the Hell are you doing!?!?" She goes, "You have 19!"

He retorts "Are you blind, I have 21!" She goes "Alright relax, PUSH then!" He shouts back "You got 22. You Busted, Pay up!!!" She turns to see her floor person still standing there and says "Floor, I thought it was a push, I'm gonna pay him now, ok?" Floor person obviously approves it and HE apologizes on her behalf.

I just shook my head and walked away ahead at that point and in complete disbelief that they would let someone blatantly try and cheat people by doing a lousy job. Ah well, that's CET for ya!



This woman seems to be kind of incompetent at her job. :/ I don't see her lasting long with her work ethic there.
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sabre
sabre
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February 9th, 2018 at 7:32:51 AM permalink
You give numerous examples of the dealer paying players when she shouldn't yet you conclude they're cheating you. OK.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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February 10th, 2018 at 12:35:57 PM permalink
Jefferson Parish Casino in Louisiana took names of Texas Hold 'Em players for bad beat jackpot but immediately launched an investigation because dealers strange activities had been noted by casino staffers. Prior and subsequent communications between the dealer and the winning player clinched the investigation into the two separate false shuffles. Dealer and player in custody.
Bad beat money stays in the bad beat fund.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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February 10th, 2018 at 9:07:57 PM permalink
Quote: GlenG

"This house cheats I cannot win" as the player proceeds to buy in for another $200

I think the notion is kinda silly...On carny games (Ult, MS Stud, 3-Card etc) the machine doesnt know how many people are playing...how will it know to give the dealer the best hand? What about hand shuffle games..are we all magicians?

If the dealer were to get all 52 cards, do the 7 card riffle, then washes them, then picks the amount of cards at random to the player, and the player picks the amount of cards at random to the dealer..i think the odds dont change at all.



I play UTH a lot of places. I consistently do worse, and it's not close, at places that deal the dealer's hand immediately after the community board. This only happens in places that use the auto dealer function of the SHFL ideal or one2six. It's gotten to where I usually don't play that game at those casinos.

I know the shuffler is certified random and sealed.

I know it is only programmed to sort the cards into check deck order, and that only can happen when a supervisor turns a key to that particular chore.

Doesn't matter. I bet very strictly, play bs. Down a little over 20% more on those tables compared to hand dealt. Very little difference between hand-dealt and dealer-last auto-deal results. Dealer-first, I've stopped playing. There's something going on.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
gamerfreak
gamerfreak 
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February 10th, 2018 at 9:27:21 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I bet very strictly, play bs. Down a little over 20% more on those tables compared to hand dealt.


Over how many hours?
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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February 11th, 2018 at 6:20:39 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Over how many hours?

I am quite interested in this and will look forward to receiving BBB's response but know she is too level headed a gambler to be altering her actions based on some ten second fluke. If she has noted it, commented on it and altered her own behavior based on her observations, it is significant.

Whether you math types want to start talking about standard deviants and non-standard deviants and precise proof or mere indications and regressions to the mean is up to you.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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February 11th, 2018 at 7:36:42 AM permalink
I'm not a math type but Uth is a very slow game ,25 hands per hour is probably being generous.
So how many hours has Bbb played at casinos that deal in the manner she has had bad results with.It could just be variance.
Don't teach an alligator how to swim.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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February 11th, 2018 at 8:50:36 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Over how many hours?



About 250 over 2 years. So about 7000-8000 hands at roughly 30/hr avg.

I've had significant w2s over the last couple years, so have tracked my win/loss pretty closely with a daily log. UTH has been my go-to game, using James Grosjean strategy and Wizards kicker strategy with no deviations for how the table might be running. So my EOR has been very close to expected on the non dealer-first games, and atm I'm up slightly, around 1%, which I attribute to variance. But isolating the dealer first games, I'm down 22% from expectation on those alone.

Casinos that deal with dealer-first from the machine:
Scarlet Pearl Biloxi MS(game removed since, replaced with HUH)
4 Queens LV
Ameristar Vicksburg MS (lost 22 hands IN A ROW there - 8 on 1 table, changed tables, lost 14 more, gave up )
Harrahs Gulf Coast (just installed in Dec 2017, still adjusting some procedures)

Good games
Victory Casino Port Canaveral FL
Hard Rock Hotel Biloxi MS (game reportedly removed in Nov and replaced with HUH - no idea what they were thinking, people stood 3 deep to get on the 1 table they had)
IP (boyd) Biloxi MS
Hard Rock Hollywood FL (Ft Lauderdale) though often $15 min.
Harrahs LV (though I haven't played it there since 2014, so could be different).
Horseshoe Tunica MS
Harrahs Kansas City MO
Horseshoe Bossier City LA
Last edited by: beachbumbabs on Feb 11, 2018
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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February 11th, 2018 at 8:52:32 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

could just be variance.

Yes. Maybe it will survive an actuarial audit; maybe it will not. If I were playing with your money, I might discuss actuarial audits and precise calculations of probability but if I'm playing with my money for my enjoyment, my standards for looking askance at the shuffler are a bit more relaxed.

Anyway, I too look forward to getting an estimate of the hours and the mathematical significance of 20 percent.

There is always observer bias and distractions. BBB is playing the game, greeting the dealer, greeting fellow players, ordering drinks, congratulating those with growing chip stacks, commiserating with those whose stacks are dwindling, but overall has formed an impression (and apparently kept some win/loss records) and even if it insufficient to pass actuarial muster, I still tend to believe it at this point in time.
Last edited by: FleaStiff on Feb 11, 2018
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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February 11th, 2018 at 11:06:41 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Yes. Maybe it will survive an actuarial audit; maybe it will not. If I were playing with your money, I might discuss actuarial audits and precise calculations of probability but if I'm playing with my money for my enjoyment, my standards for looking askance at the shuffler are a bit more relaxed.

Anyway, I too look forward to getting an estimate of the hours and the mathematical significance of 20 percent.

There is always observer bias and distractions. BBB is playing the game, greeting the dealer, greeting fellow players, ordering drinks, congratulating those with growing chip stacks, commiserating with those whose stacks are dwindling, but overall has formed an impression (and apparently kept some win/loss records) and even if it insufficient to pass actuarial muster, I still tend to believe it at this point in time.



Thanks, Fleastiff. I don't think.there's enough evidence to show a provable situation myself, but the question was asked, so that's what I have. I would estimate about 50 hours of the 250 total was at those tables, mostly before I started noticing a trend. For a lot of it, one particular casino among them had a very flashy crew, so that was offsetting some of the problems, but they corrected their problem, last I saw.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

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