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scudder
scudder
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September 3rd, 2010 at 5:54:25 AM permalink
Quote: Headlock

I do want. I don't know how.



My statistics knowledge is a little rusty, but I'll poke around some of my old books and see if I can come up with the math for you. I'm sure many people here can verify my approach, right or wrong, or present their own. Do you happen to know your average or typical pass line bet size? And do you always play 10X odds?


Quote: Headlock


I'm not going to say casinos cheat, or would cheat if they had the opportunity, but I think if they could increase the edge on table games or slots just by a fraction of a percent, it would result in millions, not nickels and dimes.



It most certainly would, given the kind of gaming revenue casinos in Vegas see. Just to throw some real numbers into the mix, the Nevada Gaming Control Board reports that all Las Vegas Strip casinos combined reported a gambling win of $382,959,382.00 for the month of June. This is across all of their gaming, but you can imagine the effect if they could bump their average house edge up by even 1/10 of 1 percent.

My problem with that,though, is that there are so many other ways for the casino to legally take more money from you, that it just wouldn't make sense to try to pry some extra edge out of a game by rigging it somehow. I mean, say they raised the room rate by $5 a night, how many room-nights do they sell in a month, or a year? While lucrative, it just doesn't stand to reason as far as I'm concerned.
superrick
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September 3rd, 2010 at 9:06:13 AM permalink
Headlock

You have two different issues here, one is that you are losing when playing, and the other in your mind the casinos just might be cheating you and you want to know if the fox is guarding the hen-house!

Let take your question about the Gaming Boards, they were put in place so John Q public would feel secure in betting their money in the casinos. Why was there a need for that in the states mind, because they are the ones that are befitting, beside the casinos in the form of taxes? All the states look at gaming as a way to raise taxes, to supplement their tax base.

Then you need to know how gaming got started in Nevada, and that was basically during our gold rush in 1859. California had already become a state after their gold rush and their population went to over 400,000 in 1850. Gaming was big back then in every little mining town, and cheating ran ramp it, and that is one reason you will see guns on the tables as they were playing.

Nevada was granted statehood back in 1864. The big draw to new pioneers was the mining, and it didnít take to long before that was gone. During the peak the state population was almost at 63,000. With the miners came the alcohol, gambling, and prostitution. By the nineteenth century the population fell to less than 50,000 and we almost lost the statehood.

If you have ever been to Vegas and the surrounding area you might have notice that once you get out of Vegas you have to drive about 50 miles just to get to the next town! We have no industry to speak of. The Methodist church went on a campaign to stop gaming in Nevada. With the collapsed of the mining industry they had no problem with their antigambling crusade. At first it was success full then totally ignored; this lasted from 1910 till 1931 gambling was illegal, but openly ignored by the law.

Then in 1931 gaming became legal, and Reno was the place to go, could it have been from the fact that they still didnít have AC! It wasnít till 1950s that Vegas really came into being developed, and the rest is history! The sad part of this story is that Nevada never did develop any other industry, and there is nothing to support the state but the taxes from gaming!

The casinos control Nevada, they are the ones with all the money, so what they want they get from the politicians. The gaming boards were put into effect, because of the Mob and how they ran the casinos, before Hughes bought the Desert Inn 1967. The public thought that the casinos that were run by the mob would cheat, then came the worst thing that happened to the casinos, the Corporations, just ask any local that has been here for a long time and they remember how the casinos were run by the mob!

With the gaming board in place and the Corporations running the casinos John Q public, now didnít think anything about gambling, it had to be squeaky clean. After all the casinos would lose their gaming licenses right?

Well I pose this question to all of you, if your only source of taxes was from the casinos just how hard would you be on the ones that were supplying all your funds to run your state? Could you detect cheating, are you at the tables long enough to tell something is wrong! Just how much does the casino have to change anything that will push the house edge up, that the players would never notice?

There are a lot of good books on the Gambling Industry, and I am not going to do all your research for all of you, but I will give you some books you might want to read on the subject. To start with try Gambling in America by Willian N Thompaon.
Then how about, License to Steal: Nevadaís Gaming Control System in the Megaresort Age. By Jeff Burbanks

One thing about living in Vegas is we can get just about any book on the gaming Industry, and it has not be as clean as you all think! With billions of dollars going into gaming every year what is the chance of someone cheating and it could be a casino.

Read the books then make up your own minds!

For the second part of your question, you never did say were you played at, in what state would be a good start. You didnít say how long you have been playing craps, it could be that you have been playing for 45 years, but you never learned how to bet the game. I see this all the time, with players that play everyday, and it just blows my mind! Even with good betting strategies, the game is almost impossible to beat! You are using an out dated way of betting and you could be losing every time you play, just because you read something in a book about betting does not guarantee that you will win, and I donít care that you are saying the house only has a .18% edge on you. You still have to know how to bet, and how to play the trends!
Most players will never learn how to bet, they lose all the time!

There are a lot of good books out there, sorry to tell you this, but if I was you, I would be reading everything I could get my hands on! Please don't take it as a insult, you could be the best player there ever was, and have a true problem with the casino you are playing in! I have no way of telling, what is going on, but your betting is out dated and you could improve how you bet! Boy that one is going to draw a lot of players telling me they win with that all the time!

First off read Scarneís on dice and you can also read Scarneís New Complete Guide to Gambling: Both books by John Scarne

Most writers on the game of craps have just rewritten information taking from his books!
Here is a quote from Scarneís New Complete Guide to Gambling taking from around pages 409-420

In games of luck such as roulette, craps, or baccarat the player is foolish to believe they can sustain an edge over the house with any system!

The books that should help you with your betting are!

Start with Sam Grafstein Craps The Dice Doctor, for your betting!
Then John Patrickís Craps
Then Dice Setting Crapsability

That should get you on the right track with your betting!
Any of these books are a small investment and should be read by anybody that is losing playing craps.
You can also read The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible, I have a problem with the fiction in the book, but he does put out a lot of great imformation on betting the game!
You can also PM me at http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org it's a free site to help you with you betting.
One final thing just because you might see eight shooters in a row not make a point does not mean the casino are using bad dice, and cheating you. That is the only thing they can do to cheat you, besides putting something under the felt like the Four Queens and Fitzgeralds does in Vegas! Remember there are no rules on craps or dice in Neavda and they can get away with it!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
teddys
teddys
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September 3rd, 2010 at 11:21:08 AM permalink
Quote: superrick

Even with good betting strategies, the game is impossible to beat!

Corrected.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
cclub79
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September 3rd, 2010 at 1:36:41 PM permalink
Quote:

Well I pose this question to all of you, if your only source of taxes was from the casinos just how hard would you be on the ones that were supplying all your funds to run your state? Could you detect cheating, are you at the tables long enough to tell something is wrong!



You are arguing two separate points. If you suggest that they tacitly accept cheating because they benefit from it, they are only one big enough scandal away from losing the trust of the consumer and losing a lot more in taxes (and probably most important for politicians, losing the next election if the story ever got out). Maybe when Vegas was the only place to gamble, people didn't care if there were stories about cheating. But if you have a casino 15 minutes from your Indiana home, and you fly to Vegas for fun in the sun but hear that they are not trustworthy, then you'll likely wait until you get home to gamble. Or maybe skip Vegas altogether and go to LA instead.
MathExtremist
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September 3rd, 2010 at 2:52:58 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock


I'm not going to say casinos cheat, or would cheat if they had the opportunity, but I think if they could increase the edge on table games or slots just by a fraction of a percent, it would result in millions, not nickels and dimes.



But they can, and it doesn't. Slot games ship with a range of payback levels, and it's trivial for a casino to switch from a 92% game to a 90% game. Not only is that not cheating, it's by design -- and it doesn't necessarily lead to millions more in revenue. In Nevada, you can look at aggregated gaming revenue statistics here:
http://gaming.nv.gov/gaming_revenue_rpt.htm
and there is by no means a perfect correlation (over time) between the reported win % and the reported actual revenues.

Conspiracy theories aside, it's hard for me to imagine that a corporate casino would risk an act which could get their license revoked when there are so many methods for adjusting games that are allowed and accepted by the public and by regulators.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
scudder
scudder
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September 3rd, 2010 at 7:37:14 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist



[...]there is by no means a perfect correlation (over time) between the reported win % and the reported actual revenues.

Conspiracy theories aside, it's hard for me to imagine that a corporate casino would risk an act which could get their license revoked when there are so many methods for adjusting games that are allowed and accepted by the public and by regulators.



You bring up an excellent point. There are so many factors that affect the bottom line of a casino that have nothing to do with gambling. Utility costs, minimum wage laws, and tax rates, just to name what pops into my head at the moment.
Headlock
Headlock
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September 4th, 2010 at 3:42:55 PM permalink
Back on topic.

Four phone calls to the Iowa Racing and Gaming Commission on Wed. and Thurs. No answer and no response to the messages I left. There is one office in Council Bluffs to oversee three casinos in that city. There is no presence in the casinos.

Black Hawk Colorado; I asked a security officer in the Ameristar Casino if there was a Colorado Division of Gaming representative in the casino or in the city of Black Hawk. Well, that was a big mistake, because he was instantly on the defensive, and I'm probably on the blacklist now. The security officer asked why I was asking; I said I was just curious. He had to contact his manager. So I'm waiting for the manager, he never shows. The security officer asks me again what is the nature of my inquiry, I said I'm just curious whether they have a presence in the casino. He then tell me "no, they show up incognito". I visited the Colorado Division of Gaming office in Central City on Saturday afternoon, and they were closed. No notice of office hours on the door.
Headlock
Headlock
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September 4th, 2010 at 4:09:59 PM permalink
Can we change the title of that other thread to "The Glenn Beck Phenomenon"? He may be a phenom, but that title just bothers me.

I forgot to mention, I have not seen any RFID chips in use in Black Hawk or Central City, CO.

There is a game called Black Jack Streak. A side bet of $1 to $100 on your streak of winning hands. It pays 3 to 1 for a two win streak, 8 to 1 for a streak of 3, 38 to 1 for a streak of 5. I think the payoff for 4 is 19 to 1, but don't hold me to that. You have to bet the specific number of your streak. For example, if you bet the streak of 2, and end up winning 4 in a row, you only get paid for the 2. Likewise, if you bet the 5, and get only 4 wins in a row, you get nothing.

Math guys, figure that one out!
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 4th, 2010 at 4:16:25 PM permalink
That one's easy: here.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
chook
chook
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September 4th, 2010 at 5:54:17 PM permalink
killed
You can't trust a dog to mind your food.
chook
chook
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September 4th, 2010 at 5:55:48 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

Back on topic.

Four phone calls to the Iowa Racing and Gaming Commission on Wed. and Thurs. No answer and no response to the messages I left. There is one office in Council Bluffs to oversee three casinos in that city. There is no presence in the casinos.

Black Hawk Colorado; I asked a security officer in the Ameristar Casino if there was a Colorado Division of Gaming representative in the casino or in the city of Black Hawk. Well, that was a big mistake, because he was instantly on the defensive, and I'm probably on the blacklist now. The security officer asked why I was asking; I said I was just curious. He had to contact his manager. So I'm waiting for the manager, he never shows. The security officer asks me again what is the nature of my inquiry, I said I'm just curious whether they have a presence in the casino. He then tell me "no, they show up incognito". I visited the Colorado Division of Gaming office in Central City on Saturday afternoon, and they were closed. No notice of office hours on the door.



This suggests that a lot of the concerns, expressed on this thread, may not just be innuendo.
You can't trust a dog to mind your food.
superrick
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September 6th, 2010 at 11:07:15 PM permalink
Did any of you see Dateline last night?

They were doing an investigation into clerks ripping off people who were cashing in lotto tickets in CA. and NY. The good thing was they were catching them in CA. but when the NY lotto found out that they were doing a sting, they sent out a warning about Dateline were doing an investigation. Makes you wonder just how good of a job the NY lotto is doing to protect, lotto players!

I know, I know no one would cheat anybody!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/38851982#38851982r
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
rudeboyoi
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September 6th, 2010 at 11:20:07 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock


I've convinced myself.

I play almost all the time at one particular casino. I have a relationship with a casino host, I know many of the employees at the casino, may of the patrons, and in general I like to go there. I get free rooms and other comps.

But I'm too predictable. I always use my players card. I always play PL and come bets with odds. The casino knows by know approximately how much I'm willing to lose. If anyone is an easy mark, I'm it.



if u think youre being cheated on the PL, why wouldnt u just switch to the donts and then have an advantage?
Headlock
Headlock
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September 6th, 2010 at 11:49:41 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

if u think youre being cheated on the PL, why wouldnt u just switch to the donts and then have an advantage?



I can't go into all the details. In any event, I've convinced myself and if I play there at all in the future, it will be small stakes and I'm going to vary my strategy so I'm not so predictable.
superrick
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September 7th, 2010 at 8:18:55 AM permalink
Headlock

Ok so you went to Black Hawk Colorado; did you play there and if so how did you do? That would be a good indentation of how youíre betting strategies are working. If you couldnít win in Colorado you just might have a problem with your betting, like I said before. All the players I have ever talk to tells me that they have fair dice there, as they have to be balanced before they go on the tables!

I would like to help you out, with your problem, but you need to go to a board that someone can PM you on! As I said before if you are seeing a lot of seven outs it could be just a trend, and there is nothing wrong with the dice, you have to know what to look for!

When we start taking about anybody cheating the proof sometimes can be hard to come by, if you do believe that only one casino is cheating you , take some good advice ďDonít Play ThereĒ Again you never said where you play at!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
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September 7th, 2010 at 9:00:20 AM permalink
Quote: superrick



The books that should help you with your betting are!

Start with Sam Grafstein Craps The Dice Doctor, for your betting!
Then John Patrickís Craps
Then Dice Setting Crapsability



lol at anything by John Patrick
superrick
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September 7th, 2010 at 10:50:32 PM permalink
rudeboyoi

You can get good information out of any book you read, but you have to know how to read between the lines! There is even one book that I consider fiction, but I did include it here because he does have some good information on betting! There are only a few books that I thought was a total waste of money, even the bad ones had information that most players can get something out of! The one good thing about living in Vegas is you can get just about any book on playing craps, and gaming at the local libarary!



Quote: superrick


The books that should help you with your betting are!

Start with Sam Grafstein Craps The Dice Doctor, for your betting!
Then John Patrickís Craps
Then Dice Setting Crapsability

That should get you on the right track with your betting!
Any of these books are a small investment and should be read by anybody that is losing playing craps.
You can also read The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible, I have a problem with the fiction in the book, but he does put out a lot of great imformation on betting the game!
You can also PM me at http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org it's a free site to help you with you betting.

Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
KidBonzo
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October 7th, 2010 at 5:47:10 AM permalink
That's not true. I've had dealers deal me seconds on more than one occasion in "reputable" casinos. Some casinos still play dirty and will cheat a card counter because to them using your brain is against the rules. I'm talking about hand held blackjack games and fairly low stakes, red and green chips.

Think about this... dealers capable of dealing seconds will be compensated by the casino and make much more money than an "honest" dealer. I believe some casinos operate this way. They always have one dealer on staff who is a specialist. If a high roller is getting lucky or a guy is counting cards they will be sent to that table to protect the casino's interest.

Most casinos and most employees are probably honest but never assume that you won't be cheated. If you play hand held games there's always the potential you're not getting the top card off the deck. Be especially careful of dealers who keep looking at their watch or who hold the cards close to their body while organizing the chip tray. They may be peeking at the top card: if they think it will bust your hand they will deal it to you, if they think it will help your hand you will be dealt a "second", then while their hitting their hand if the top card will bust their hand they deal themselves seconds.

Trust me this is happening right now. If you spot it all you can do is leave or move to another dealer.
Yoyomama
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October 13th, 2010 at 5:53:22 AM permalink
I always felt that the casinos don't cheat. Maybe a few employees for their own benefit. So many bad gamblers that they didn't need to cheat.
darkoz
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October 23rd, 2010 at 11:12:59 PM permalink
Well, whether the casinos cheat, they really do not have to.

I recently had a few weeks to kill and decided to hang out at the casinos virtual playing in real time at roulette(keeping a log of all the bets, wins and losses and using different strategies and betting systems--all virtual of course.)

At the end of almost every day, I came home a terrible loser playing my virtual money. I also heard many players as they were leaving the tables state that they're winning numbers had just come up and if they had more finances they would have made a killing but as my resources were virtual, I always was able to continue and still recorded losses.

The vig just is too much to overcome and the casino's(I was in AC) have no need to cheat when they can win legally.

Thats my two cents.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
JerryLogan
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October 24th, 2010 at 8:53:33 AM permalink
What land-based casino would cheat? Sure there may from time to time be an occasional dealer or other individual who might pull something over on a novice, but to think that written or unwritten policies are in place that allow cheating or that machines are manipulated to operate anywhere outside of the parameters they are regulated to operate within, seems too far-fetched to any businessman. Remember, eventually cheaters always get caught.
TheKeymaster
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November 2nd, 2010 at 7:41:28 PM permalink
From what I've read, it seems like there are a lot of people that wear tin-foil hats while at home. First, let me introduce myself. I was a games dealer for about a year and am currently in surveillance for our local casino in MO. Being in both of these departments, I've learned pretty much all there is to know about how the casino is ran. (We are required to take multiple tests in surveillance that cover everything from state regulations, to the ICs of every department.)

That being said, there are others on here that have the right idea about casinos being ABLE to cheat in the first place. Everyone from the pit managers, to gaming commission, to surveillance....hell, even the CSMs, would have to be in on it. If you imagine the scope of everything, it seems quite ridiculous that most casinos would even try to cheat players.

Other than that, I'm really unsure as to how people like mlk say they have cheated players. Are you some kind of shuffling master and can stack multiple decks? (IF you don't have shuffling machines...) Are you hiding cards in your sleeves? Really the only way I can see dealers 'cheating' is the stickman on craps, or they're shortchanging on payouts. Other than that...give me a break people. This isn't the 1900's anymore, and aside from casinos being shut down and losing their business over cheating, they would also probably be sued by the person that was cheated.

There is little to no incentive for a casino to cheat knowingly and willingly...and is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm not saying it's impossible on a smaller scale, but those people risk a lot for little reward.
mkl654321
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November 2nd, 2010 at 7:58:31 PM permalink
Quote: TheKeymaster

From what I've read, it seems like there are a lot of people that wear tin-foil hats while at home. First, let me introduce myself. I was a games dealer for about a year and am currently in surveillance for our local casino in MO. Being in both of these departments, I've learned pretty much all there is to know about how the casino is ran. (We are required to take multiple tests in surveillance that cover everything from state regulations, to the ICs of every department.)

That being said, there are others on here that have the right idea about casinos being ABLE to cheat in the first place. Everyone from the pit managers, to gaming commission, to surveillance....hell, even the CSMs, would have to be in on it. If you imagine the scope of everything, it seems quite ridiculous that most casinos would even try to cheat players.

Other than that, I'm really unsure as to how people like mlk say they have cheated players. Are you some kind of shuffling master and can stack multiple decks? (IF you don't have shuffling machines...) Are you hiding cards in your sleeves? Really the only way I can see dealers 'cheating' is the stickman on craps, or they're shortchanging on payouts. Other than that...give me a break people. This isn't the 1900's anymore, and aside from casinos being shut down and losing their business over cheating, they would also probably be sued by the person that was cheated.

There is little to no incentive for a casino to cheat knowingly and willingly...and is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm not saying it's impossible on a smaller scale, but those people risk a lot for little reward.



Why would casinos cheat? To increase the bottom line. Especially when revenues are falling--like now.
What is the risk that a casino runs by cheating? Zero--no casino in Nevada has ever been shut down, even temporarily, for cheating. And the reason for that is either that casinos never cheat, or that they cheat but aren't caught, or are caught but not punished. You guess which.
How easy is it for a casino to cheat? Ridiculously so.
How easy is it for an individual dealer to cheat? Not very easy, but when I was a casino dealer, other dealers showed me moves that would make your hair stand on end--if you could detect them, that is.
How easy is it for a player to tell that he has been cheated? Almost impossible.
How easy is it for a player to obtain redress, if he feels that he has been cheated? Impossible. See answer to second question.

Given the records of malfeasance in other major industries, I cannot see why we, logically, should give the casino industry a free pass and assume that their dealings with the public are lily-white and free of suspicion.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
superrick
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November 2nd, 2010 at 9:33:29 PM permalink
.......
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
TheKeymaster
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November 2nd, 2010 at 10:35:42 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Why would casinos cheat? To increase the bottom line. Especially when revenues are falling--like now.
What is the risk that a casino runs by cheating? Zero--no casino in Nevada has ever been shut down, even temporarily, for cheating. And the reason for that is either that casinos never cheat, or that they cheat but aren't caught, or are caught but not punished. You guess which.
How easy is it for a casino to cheat? Ridiculously so.
How easy is it for an individual dealer to cheat? Not very easy, but when I was a casino dealer, other dealers showed me moves that would make your hair stand on end--if you could detect them, that is.
How easy is it for a player to tell that he has been cheated? Almost impossible.
How easy is it for a player to obtain redress, if he feels that he has been cheated? Impossible. See answer to second question.

Given the records of malfeasance in other major industries, I cannot see why we, logically, should give the casino industry a free pass and assume that their dealings with the public are lily-white and free of suspicion.



Increase the bottom line? Do you realize how much casinos actually make? Do you have numbers that back up your claim that revenues are falling? Doubtful. Most of your posts have been about things that no one else has even heard of, let alone seen, but somehow you're in the know.

Which brings me to my next point. You seem to think that all patrons have the intelligence level of a child. Almost impossible for a player to tell they've been cheated? Let's see...I know several dealers and surveillance operators that go to other casinos to gamble. I know doctors, magicians (Yes, magicians, they know just a bit about card manipulation and tricks..), and several others with above average intelligence that come to our establishment, as well as the more 'mainstream' casinos outside of our city. Do you really believe that those people, especially the ones that are frequent table players, are not going to notice something? I know I sure as in hell would, I notice little mistakes all the time working in my department. Since you haven't given an actual example of cheating through all your steam, maybe you can enlighten us poor folk.

Your last statement is the one I laugh at the most. You really, honestly believe, that a casino can cheat, get caught, and get away with it that easy? You're very dense and ignorant if you believe so. That's what the Gaming Commission is for. They don't work for the casino, they are there to regulate the casino and take care of problems like this. Even IF the GC was somehow 'in on it', that's what lawyers are for.

You are a LOT of talk, with NO evidence to back up any of your wild claims. You would be an excellent politician...
mkl654321
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November 2nd, 2010 at 11:46:30 PM permalink
Quote: TheKeymaster

Increase the bottom line? Do you realize how much casinos actually make? Do you have numbers that back up your claim that revenues are falling? Doubtful. Most of your posts have been about things that no one else has even heard of, let alone seen, but somehow you're in the know.

Which brings me to my next point. You seem to think that all patrons have the intelligence level of a child. Almost impossible for a player to tell they've been cheated? Let's see...I know several dealers and surveillance operators that go to other casinos to gamble. I know doctors, magicians (Yes, magicians, they know just a bit about card manipulation and tricks..), and several others with above average intelligence that come to our establishment, as well as the more 'mainstream' casinos outside of our city. Do you really believe that those people, especially the ones that are frequent table players, are not going to notice something? I know I sure as in hell would, I notice little mistakes all the time working in my department. Since you haven't given an actual example of cheating through all your steam, maybe you can enlighten us poor folk.

Your last statement is the one I laugh at the most. You really, honestly believe, that a casino can cheat, get caught, and get away with it that easy? You're very dense and ignorant if you believe so. That's what the Gaming Commission is for. They don't work for the casino, they are there to regulate the casino and take care of problems like this. Even IF the GC was somehow 'in on it', that's what lawyers are for.

You are a LOT of talk, with NO evidence to back up any of your wild claims. You would be an excellent politician...



To address your points in turn, ignoring your snotty manner for the time being:

There have been literally dozens of posts about falling casino revenues on this forum, and there are plenty of linked news articles. Casino financial statements are part of the public record, as are revenue reports. You can check any of this information to help stem your incredulity.

Yes, it is impossible for all but a very few trained and skilled persons to detect cheating. If you want an example, hell, even I can deal seconds, and no one notices a thing. And I'm pretty lousy at it.

I may be "dense and ignorant", but please give me an example of a casino's license being suspended or withdrawn as a result of being caught cheating.

And now I'll return to your snotty manner. You are, I'm sure, capable of disagreeing with someone without name-calling, innuendo, and ad hominem attacks. I'd like you to consider the wild possibility that you may not be 100% correct, and modify your disrespectful tone accordingly. Otherwise, I regret to say that I will consider it not worth my while to converse with you.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
SOOPOO
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November 3rd, 2010 at 3:19:41 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

To address your points in turn, ignoring your snotty manner for the time being:

Otherwise, I regret to say that I will consider it not worth my while to converse with you.

This is the funniest thing mkl has posted yet!! As our experience with JL has shown, you will continue to converse, explain, demonstrate, pontificate, explicate, over and over and over, repeatedly, again, and again, infinitely, forever, incessantly, non stop.......

weaselman
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November 3rd, 2010 at 7:16:19 AM permalink
Quote: TheKeymaster

I know doctors, magicians (Yes, magicians, they know just a bit about card manipulation and tricks..), and several others with above average intelligence that come to our establishment, as well as the more 'mainstream' casinos outside of our city. Do you really believe that those people, especially the ones that are frequent table players, are not going to notice something?



How do you suggest a magician should notice a few face cards in a deck replaced by fives? X-ray vision?
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
SanchoPanza
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November 3rd, 2010 at 7:52:45 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman

How do you suggest a magician should notice a few face cards in a deck replaced by fives? X-ray vision?


The same way that the Amazing Randi was able to show what an out-and-out fraud Uri Geller was. And sent Barbara Walters crying. Good magicians have sufficient experience with dexterity.
austintx
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November 3rd, 2010 at 8:17:45 AM permalink
I play often at the blackjack high rollers table, double deck, usually with a bunch of guys who are betting much larger sums than me, and when they come to change the cards, shuffle, or do anything at all to the cards, I sit there and watch every move. What I observe though is that everyone else gets up, takes a break, goes to the bathroom, are on their cell phones. Even these guys betting lots of money. They then reappear when the cards are all ready to go, as if magic just happened.

I don't think that cheating can occur systematically in land based casinos, with all the safeguards and oversight, but still guys we need to watch. We (as players) are the main way to stop cheating by casinos. Everyone can and will cheat if given the opportunity. Think of all of the US corporations in general that have cheated in some way or another over the past five years (multiple major financial institutions, manufacturing companies, and even the Vatican), because they thought they could get away with it. And you all think that casino corporations of all things are holier than them? If players don't watch and rules and regulators don't exist, then of course casinos will cheat. It is human nature. Even though they have a house edge, they will still cheat because it is human nature to be greedy. So keeping up the appearance by players of watching for cheating is what makes table games honest. It is hard enough to win even on an honest game. So I think we owe it to ourselves to keep an eye on everything, and keep regulators out there, so that cheating will be minimized. Even though I get as pissed off as anyone in blackjack when the dealer draws to 21 for three busts hands in a row, I really trust that that was chance, not cheating. Because I do my part in watching intently.

Now online casinos, that is a whole different story. There is absolutely nothing a player can do to judge whether cheating has occurred, and no recourse should you suspect cheating has occurred. Any outcome can be chance. So when a dealer draws to 21 three times in a row, you have absolutely no idea that that was real. Except to trust that a website run by offshore mobsters "would never cheat." My 10 year old son (he's a computer genius, by the way) could write a computer program to track betting patterns and bankrolls and cards and have it worked into the computer dealing algorithms. Yah, no cheating is possible, right...
weaselman
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November 3rd, 2010 at 8:48:51 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

The same way that the Amazing Randi was able to show what an out-and-out fraud Uri Geller was. And sent Barbara Walters crying. Good magicians have sufficient experience with dexterity.



I don't know who are these people, and why some of them were crying.
Can you just explain your suggested method of verifying the correctness of the deck composition in a live game to me in plain English?
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
Headlock
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November 3rd, 2010 at 11:50:08 AM permalink
My intent when I started this thread was to find some evidence that casinos are subject to oversight that would deter cheating. I've played a considerable amount of time in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado, Illinois, Minnesota, South Dakota, Florida and Nevada. I believe each of these states has a gaming commission, control board, whatever they call it, but not once have I seen a representative of gaming control checking dice or cards.

So I will ask again, does anyone have recent evidence that gaming control, unannounced, checks the dice, the cards, the video poker machines while they are in operation in the casino?

Surely there must be someone among the thousands of visitors to this forum that has worked for a gaming commission or in casino management.
soulhunt79
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November 3rd, 2010 at 11:50:27 AM permalink
Quote: austintx


I don't think that cheating can occur systematically in land based casinos, with all the safeguards and oversight, but still guys we need to watch. We (as players) are the main way to stop cheating by casinos. Everyone can and will cheat if given the opportunity. Think of all of the US corporations in general that have cheated in some way or another over the past five years (multiple major financial institutions, manufacturing companies, and even the Vatican), because they thought they could get away with it. And you all think that casino corporations of all things are holier than them? If players don't watch and rules and regulators don't exist, then of course casinos will cheat. It is human nature. Even though they have a house edge, they will still cheat because it is human nature to be greedy. So keeping up the appearance by players of watching for cheating is what makes table games honest. It is hard enough to win even on an honest game. So I think we owe it to ourselves to keep an eye on everything, and keep regulators out there, so that cheating will be minimized. Even though I get as pissed off as anyone in blackjack when the dealer draws to 21 for three busts hands in a row, I really trust that that was chance, not cheating. Because I do my part in watching intently.



Some of your examples of cheating are really broadening what a lot of people call cheating. Most of your examples are companies selling products that had little or no regulation(either government or industry). A company has zero issues selling me a product where half the parts are from china because it is cheaper. They don't advertise the products as being created with the best parts possible though either.



With something like loaded dice. Couldn't someone that could tell the difference actually gain an edge because they knew they were loaded? If more 7s are supposed to come up, simply bet the don't pass. The casino needs to make sure they keep the edge, and something that screws with the odds on games like craps/roulette just mean if the player knows they can use that to their advantage.

With cards, how many 10s would they need to remove from a 6 deck shoe for it to really affect the odds enough to matter? This one I'm actually kindof curious on because if the answer is something like 10-12, it means that if the first hand dealt has this number, that means I should get up and go to a different table.

Machines used on table games to me have the same issues as loaded dice. The machine would need to know how many players are playing. You think they are putting in seat sensors? I certainly don't see someone pressing buttons on the shuffler on my Let it Ride game everytime someone sits down.


Video Poker, absolutely able to cheat on this. Probably one of the easiest ones as you know exactly what the probabilities are supposed to be, but no way of verifying physical cards. This one is a matter of trust in the gaming commission to enforce their rules.

Slots. Casinos I assume increase/decrease payouts all the time on these machines. I simply don't call this cheating since noone has a clue what the real odds are on getting 3 7s or 5 gold rings.


Casinos already have an extremely easy way of increasing their advantage on games. Simply have less of the good BJ tables. Casinos have certainly ripped out good tables and put in worse ones, or replaced games like BJ with things like Let it Ride. The amount of effort a casino seems like it would need to go through to cheat me out of another 0.5% on BJ is fairly large, at least if they are doing so across the board and not with just 2 of their 400 dealers.


I absolutely know it is possible, but I have yet to see anyone with any proof that it happened to them, and the few stories I've read on it have tried to be verified with no success. I'll continue to be sceptical and make sure I'm getting paid the correct amounts on my craps bets and colorups.
austintx
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November 3rd, 2010 at 1:21:17 PM permalink
You are actually correct -- for larger land based casinos, there are lots of ways to increase revenues without cheating. Lets say for blackjack, just changing the rules of the game (blackjack payout amount, rules on splitting/double down, hitting on soft 17, etc.) can accomplish an adjustment in the house edge equal or perhaps even greater than illegally removing a few 10 cards from the deck or dealing seconds occasionally or manipulating the shuffle. The vast majority of casual blackjack players don't even look at the rules when they sit down, or look at rules to choose a casino to go to in the first place. Besides changing the rules of the game, they can offer more games with a higher house edge in the first place, introduce high house edge side bets (like suited pairs in a blackjack game, etc.), spend time on marketing and promotions to bring more players in, etc. etc. -- all of which are much safer and fruitful for a casino then taking the risk to directly cheat players.

But to say that there are plenty of ways for casinos to make money without cheating, so therefore they don't and won't cheat, is a totally ridiculous statement. There needs to be regulators and inspectors. Because everyone will cheat if there is no risk of being caught. That is simple human nature. The question is, who are these people who regulate and what do they do? I'm curious too.
weaselman
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November 3rd, 2010 at 1:21:55 PM permalink
Quote: soulhunt79


With cards, how many 10s would they need to remove from a 6 deck shoe for it to really affect the odds enough to matter?



https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix7.html
Removing 6 of them about doubles the house edge. Replacing them with fives instead of simply removing will do even more damage

Quote:


This one I'm actually kindof curious on because if the answer is something like 10-12, it means that if the first hand dealt has this number, that means I should get up and go to a different table.


You'll likely see other cards getting out as well, not just 10s though. But if you see significantly more tens than low cards being played, you are right, it's better to move or take a break. It's the basic idea behind card counting.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
soulhunt79
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November 3rd, 2010 at 2:04:24 PM permalink
Quote: austintx


But to say that there are plenty of ways for casinos to make money without cheating, so therefore they don't and won't cheat, is a totally ridiculous statement. There needs to be regulators and inspectors. Because everyone will cheat if there is no risk of being caught. That is simple human nature. The question is, who are these people who regulate and what do they do? I'm curious too.



I absolutely agree. I don't give companies a pass simply because I trust them. Gaming at least in Nevada seems to be one of the most heavily regulated industries. Obviously one has to trust that regulation actually works. I certainly wouldn't mind some comments from people that have seen this regulation in action.

I will never say cheating is impossible and never occurs. I just think if it is happening on the scale that some people are suspecting, that I find it very hard to believe something hasn't leaked about it happening. There were massive layoffs in the past few years. All it took was one of those dealers to be in the know and chat about it. While I'm sure some would even care if it was just 1 dealer cheating in all of vegas, I just don't care that much on this. This is the same as a new dealer giving me the wrong payout and me not catching it.
Headlock
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November 6th, 2010 at 3:24:14 PM permalink
There are several regulars here who have worked in casinos. Paigow Dan, mkl, 7winner, 7craps. Math Extremist consults to the gaming, no I'll call it what it is, the gambling industry. So, PLEASE, describe for me your experience with gaming commission personnel enforcing the regulations IN THE CASINO. Doc and goatcabin, superrick, you all play a lot of craps. Have you ever seen gaming commission personnel inspecting the dice and/or the table?
mkl654321
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November 6th, 2010 at 4:10:49 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

There are several regulars here who have worked in casinos. Paigow Dan, mkl, 7winner, 7craps. Math Extremist consults to the gaming, no I'll call it what it is, the gambling industry. So, PLEASE, describe for me your experience with gaming commission personnel enforcing the regulations IN THE CASINO. Doc and goatcabin, superrick, you all play a lot of craps. Have you ever seen gaming commission personnel inspecting the dice and/or the table?



In eight years, I never saw a gaming enforcement agent (not that he necessarily would have identified himself as such), and I never saw or experienced a game being interrupted, let alone shut down, for any kind of inspection. That includes slots and video poker--I never saw an inspection, surprise or otherwise. Of course, that I didn't see it doesn't mean that it never happened, but I DID work a lot of graveyard (my shift of choice), and I would think if there WAS going to be any kind of inspection/game shutdown, that would be when it would happen, as it would be less disruptive then.

I have seen the dice, as they were replaced (all five sets), be put in a special sealed envelope by the floorman to be sent to Gaming. What the exact purpose of that was, I never bothered to ask.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
MathExtremist
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November 6th, 2010 at 4:34:47 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

There are several regulars here who have worked in casinos. Paigow Dan, mkl, 7winner, 7craps. Math Extremist consults to the gaming, no I'll call it what it is, the gambling industry. So, PLEASE, describe for me your experience with gaming commission personnel enforcing the regulations IN THE CASINO. Doc and goatcabin, superrick, you all play a lot of craps. Have you ever seen gaming commission personnel inspecting the dice and/or the table?



Read the Nevada gaming regulations. Several parts of Regulation 5, for example, basically say that every aspect of a gaming establishment is subject to inspection by a board or commission member at any time and that denying that inspection is grounds for disciplinary action. I know for a fact that Nevada gaming agents perform random inspections of slot machines. Here's a link to a NGCB presentation on their field services.

Many other jurisdictions do the same thing. For example, Ontario.

Edit: I should add that I have specifically asked the NGCB whether physical gaming elements (like dominoes) are required to be approved. The NGCB has the authority to approve dice, cards, and other "associated equipment" but they currently do not require such approval. In other words, casinos in Nevada are free to get their cards or dice (or - importantly for me - dominoes) wherever they want. This is unlike Washington State, for example, which requires an authorized distributor and specific approval for cards (dice games are not allowed in WA).
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Doc
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November 6th, 2010 at 4:39:03 PM permalink
The only inspection I have ever seen performed on a pair of dice was done by the box man, and I think that was basically limited to verifying the serial numbers. Of course, unless he/she were introduced to me, I highly doubt I could distinguish a gaming official from a floor supervisor, and perhaps not from another player. And for that matter, I personally would consider having an official interrupt a game to inspect the dice as an annoyance. If the dice are good enough for the casino, I think they are good enough for me. I have never heard it described how a set of five biased dice could consistently help the casino without giving the players an opportunity that could be exploited. I still view craps (my favorite casino game) as mostly-random bets on random numbers, sort of like roulette.

On the other hand, I have seen some tables that I didn't think were particularly uniform. Back in August I posted here that I had encountered a table where the dice kept bouncing at right angles to the left without any obvious reason.
SOOPOO
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November 6th, 2010 at 4:48:18 PM permalink
If I remember correctly, and the math guys can verify, if the house made one die more likely to be a 1 or 2, then that will favor the house, assuming more money is on the pass line than the don't pass line. In my limited craps experiences this has always been the case. (If a player knew this they could take advantage).
superrick
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November 6th, 2010 at 4:52:56 PM permalink
Headlock

To start with I have never seen a gaming board member in a casino, but I have threating to call them a few times, for pay-outs, for dealers cheating players. To help other players out when they booked a bet and the dealer turned around and said the player never book a hoping bet, after he hit it for big bucks, the bet was booked on the comeout roll everytime he got the dice in his hands. That one was at a small house, and the player just took his money back and said he would not play in there again!

I have made them run the video when they said a bonus bet did not hit, and because they new I tracked every roll on the table they ran the video and paid off on the bets! ďFire Bet, All tall All smallĒ

I have been called a member of the Short Bus Crew, because of some members on a different board trying to prove that there are biased dice being used in the casinos. Many of the members have repletively said biased dice not shaved or loaded dice, but other craps boards have tried to make us out like nut in the loony bin!

Read this blog about the dice, all this did take place, and they use to balance the dice in the pit before they put them in the game years ago, now they don't.


Take the information you get off this blog, and see if you can set-up a meeting with the guy that runs it, it's an eye opener.

So here the Short Bus Crew is at it again, what a bunch of losers, they can't shoot craps and they must lose all the time!

There guys I said it for you so you wouldn't have to waste you time writing anything about biased dice!

Here is the blog, if you want a meeting PM me and I will see if I can set it up for you!

http://dicecraps.blogspot.com/

superrick
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
MathExtremist
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November 6th, 2010 at 5:04:51 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

If I remember correctly, and the math guys can verify, if the house made one die more likely to be a 1 or 2, then that will favor the house, assuming more money is on the pass line than the don't pass line. In my limited craps experiences this has always been the case. (If a player knew this they could take advantage).



It would also make the Any Craps bet, the Horn, the Snake-Eyes, and the Ace-Deuce bet much closer to player-favorable. That's not something the casino should ever do because they can get hurt a lot faster on Snake-Eyes than they can on the pass bet. And have you ever noticed how prop bettors bet in streaks? Once 2s or 3s started running, you'd have a lot of action on them and the house would take a bath.

I can't say for certain that no casino operator has ever used biased dice, but if I were the TGD I'd never do it. For the small edge gain on the passline you'd be giving up potentially double-digit edges on your prop bets. That's not a good tradeoff.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Headlock
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November 6th, 2010 at 6:55:32 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Read the Nevada gaming regulations. Several parts of Regulation 5, for example, basically say that every aspect of a gaming establishment is subject to inspection by a board or commission member at any time and that denying that inspection is grounds for disciplinary action. I know for a fact that Nevada gaming agents perform random inspections of slot machines. Here's a link to a NGCB presentation on their field services.

Many other jurisdictions do the same thing. For example, Ontario.

Edit: I should add that I have specifically asked the NGCB whether physical gaming elements (like dominoes) are required to be approved. The NGCB has the authority to approve dice, cards, and other "associated equipment" but they currently do not require such approval. In other words, casinos in Nevada are free to get their cards or dice (or - importantly for me - dominoes) wherever they want. This is unlike Washington State, for example, which requires an authorized distributor and specific approval for cards (dice games are not allowed in WA).



Thanks for sharing that information Math Extremist. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but I'm not interested so much in reading regulations, but rather examples of actual enforcement.
superrick
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November 6th, 2010 at 7:11:54 PM permalink
Headlock

You don't see enforcement in the casinos here in NV!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
teddys
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November 6th, 2010 at 7:29:43 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

If I remember correctly, and the math guys can verify, if the house made one die more likely to be a 1 or 2, then that will favor the house, assuming more money is on the pass line than the don't pass line. In my limited craps experiences this has always been the case. (If a player knew this they could take advantage).

This is one reason why I swear it's better to be a don'ts bettor as a rule.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
MathExtremist
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November 6th, 2010 at 8:20:36 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

Thanks for sharing that information Math Extremist. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but I'm not interested so much in reading regulations, but rather examples of actual enforcement.



Why not go to the source? Give the gaming commission in your chosen jurisdiction a call and ask them how often they do random gaming inspections, and what kinds. I already pointed out that the dice aren't regulated in NV, so you'll likely never see a gaming agent in Vegas halt play on a craps table to balance-check the dice.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
JerryLogan
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November 6th, 2010 at 11:31:09 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Why not go to the source? Give the gaming commission in your chosen jurisdiction a call and ask them how often they do random gaming inspections, and what kinds. I already pointed out that the dice aren't regulated in NV, so you'll likely never see a gaming agent in Vegas halt play on a craps table to balance-check the dice.



I know the Nevada regulations SAY that the machines can be examined at any time without notice but I have never SEEN that happen, and of the very many other players I know and have asked this of, none of them have ever seen that occur also. In addition, I regularly ask the machine techs who either fix my machines or in casual conversation, and none of them have ever heard of or seen these snap inspections occur either. I'm more of the opinion that the inspectors might check over machines that went out of service due to technical problems and then went back on line, and not necessarily directly either. They may get copies of tech reports that are signed off by the proper casino authorities.
rxwine
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November 7th, 2010 at 1:02:19 AM permalink
I've never knowingly witnessed an inspection in the 10 years I've been here.

That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but it does seem a bit odd. They must be very stealthy.

Maybe that's why there's never a super major bust. It's like the SEC and the stock market, or the FDA and meat packing. Someone goes in and pokes a ham once a year, and gives a Pass to the whole system.

Okay, a bit of hyperbole, but yes, I do not understand why the inspection system isn't highly visible, at least once they show up and all when everyone already knows they are on the premises. They should wear a big jacket (like SWAT or FBI does) when they get into the building. So, we know, our Gaming Commision is at work making sure the games are fair.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
JerryLogan
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November 7th, 2010 at 1:28:12 AM permalink
The Gaming Commission holds hands with the casinos who hold hands with the game manufacturers. None of them are going to go beyond "poking the ham" because it just isn't good business. It's no different than how the politicians interact with the major businesses in their areas. The only time any "issues" are identified is when something very public occurs, and then it's simply a CYA affair. The whole system is based on the honor system and looking the other way if the envelope gets anywhere near pushed. It is WE who make a much bigger deal out of what the Gaming Commisions rather than what they actually go about doing.
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