Casinos don't cheat.....prove it.

Ok dealers out there... Has any one of you ever been told by a supervisor that you are a bad dealer in that the players are winning ? I could see you being chastised for errors, slow dealing, rudeness, but not the results of the games. Can anyone confirm what MLK alleges? As far as the possibility that dealers have an accomplice at their table, that is very possible, as there is a clear motive... all money illegally gained could be split amongst the accomplice and the dealer. Many years ago, at the old Alladin, I sat at a $5 BJ table. The dealer was so 'flashy' that his hole card was almost always seen by me (and others?) at the table. Not exactly sure what to do, I intermittently took advantage (standing with 14 when dealer has 10 showing, but 6 'hidden'), but not hitting hard 18 when I know dealer has 20. I made about $30 after an hour, thinking I would have made more, and just felt too nervous to make it worth my while. I Point being, If I was his accomplice it would have been easy to take significant money from the casino. Exactly how much would alert the casino to scrutinize us is something only the casino people know.

Quote: mkl654321

(You're way off the mark about casinos and politicians having equal power: casinos is to politicans as herd of elephants is to blind, old mice dying of AIDS.)

You obviously haven't seen the AC casino numbers recently. I think you've got the two animals mixed up. You have an entire agency in the Attorney General's office who's job it is to find cheating. I can't believe that NO DEALER who experienced this rampant cheating and was let go for any reason wouldn't go to them and start an investigation that led somewhere, if the cheating is everywhere. Nevertheless, I think I'm going to do my own investigating with the NJDGE and see what I can find. Your posts will be a good start. I have nothing to lose as I'm not employed by a casino and if they kill me over their cheating, then I guess I'll just be another collateral loss caused by the elephants.

Quote: rick

In Nevada they do not balance the dice or even measure them any more, and yes they use to do it, there are no rules for the dice and I know that someone is going to say there is, but will you please show me them!

See this is where the logic falls apart. OK, so there are dice that are unbalanced and will show certain numbers more than others. Well, are they balanced to produce more 7s? So at a $10 table when some bigshot comes by and drops $500 on the Don't, do they change them to dice that roll more, what, non-sevens? Or are they hoping there will be a 7 on the Come Out, and if not, oh well, looks like we lost more because of our fake dice! More 12s? That's only going to help on the Comeout, but with so many people betting more on the Horn, even with the high house edge that's probably a loser for the casino in the long run. People like to bet the Horn on non-comeouts, so the extra 12s would just be payouts with minimal losses (Come Bets). If it were MY JOB to come up with a way to balance the dice to provide the casino with an undetectable advantage, I'd make sure the dice were perfectly fair. It's the only way they have an edge on EVERY BET!

I really hope the Wizard weighs in, because I'm starting to feel like Oscar from The Office episode (appropriately named) "Mafia"... Pam and Jim are on their honeymoon. So there's not the usual balance between "sane" and "others." Toby has mentally checked out since June. It's a very dangerous time. The "coalition for reason" is extremely weak.

The entire transcript is here, and it is paralleling our discussion: http://www.officequotes.net/no6-05.php

Oh and the Glen Ross movie reference was perfect....
"You just cost me six thousand dollars...."
"What are you going to do about it, as---le?"
"Ooooh, Imma have your job, sh----ed."

Heck, look at the data developed by Persi Diaconis at Stanford when he had a pair of shaved dice manufactured to exacting standards.... the "edge" is hardly noticeable and was actually lost amidst the error-rate of his graduate assistants who had to keep track of the rolls.

All the casinos do from time to time is make certain that there are only five dice in the bowl and then they occasionally check the serial numbers on them. Thats it. The Venetian retires their dice promptly and never gives dice away as momentos but other places seem rather lax about it.

Quote: cclub79

See this is where the logic falls apart. OK, so there are dice that are unbalanced and will show certain numbers more than others. Well, are they balanced to produce more 7s? So at a $10 table when some bigshot comes by and drops $500 on the Don't, do they change them to dice that roll more, what, non-sevens? Or are they hoping there will be a 7 on the Come Out, and if not, oh well, looks like we lost more because of our fake dice! More 12s? That's only going to help on the Comeout, but with so many people betting more on the Horn, even with the high house edge that's probably a loser for the casino in the long run. People like to bet the Horn on non-comeouts, so the extra 12s would just be payouts with minimal losses (Come Bets). If it were MY JOB to come up with a way to balance the dice to provide the casino with an undetectable advantage, I'd make sure the dice were perfectly fair. It's the only way they have an edge on EVERY BET!

Thank you for saying this.
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As to this topic, I had an incident happen to me the other day at craps that shocked me to the core. I was betting $10 on the don't and laying $60 on every point (max lay). I don't usually bet this method, and was trying it as a lark, so I wasn't too familiar with the payouts, but had the basic idea -- win $30, $40, or $50 on every seven out, pretty simple, yeah? Anyway, the point was a nine so I put down my lay of two greens and two reds, and the shooter sevened out. The base dealer reached over and started to pay me, but only paid thirty on the odds for some reason. I, and others, corrected her that it was a $50 total pay. She made the correct payment and I picked up my chips. Suddenly, the other base dealer spoke up and said, "You owe him $10. You took the cap off his odds and used it to pay him." I hadn't noticed this supposed error. (I'm pretty sure I would have noticed it had it happened, but I can't be 100% sure). Anyway, I had picked up my chips and there was no way to verify, so the box said, "Pay him." I picked up an extra ten dollars, colored up, and walked away in a daze. To have a dealer on the other end of the table correct an error in my favor was beyond my comprehension. I didn't know whether to tip the dealer, take a sh*t or wind my watch.

I agree with most of the comments regarding dice. To weigh the dice for sevens, ALL dice would need to be balanced for two numbers on the opposite sides of the dice: a 6 and 1, 5 and 2, or 4 and 3. The shooter can pick any two dice out of the set. The weighting of dice would have also favor heavily the outcome of the opposite numbers. If you weigh all the dice for ONE number, then you are far more likely to throw hardways on the numbers that were weighted.

If a 4 and 3 were weighted, you would see a corresponding frequency of hard sixes and eights, and sixes and eights. If a 5 and 2 were weighted, you would see a correspondingly frequency of hard 10s and 4s, and fours and tens. And if the 6 and 1 were weighted, you would see a correspondingly higher frequency of aces and midnights.

Let's say, for example, the dice were weighted enough for each of the weighed numbers to occur 20 percent of the time, and therefore the other numbers come up 15 percent of the time.

Let's say that the 6 and 1 are weighted.
The PLAYER advantage on the 2 and 12 turn to 24 percent. (.20 x .20) * 30 - 1 * (1 - .20 * .20) = .04 x 30 - .96 = .24.
The HA on the single roll 3 and yo is 4 percent.
The HA on the PLACE six and eight change to .07143
The HA on the PLACE five and nine changes to .08364.
The HA on the PLACE four and ten changes to .08515.
On the pass line itself, the HA changes from 1.414 to 5.324 percent.
On the don't pass line the HA changes from 1.356 to a 1.324 percent player advantage.

Weighing a 5 and 2 DECREASES the PASS line HA from 1.414 percent to .638 percent.
Weighing a 4 and 3 DECREASES the PASS line HA from 1.414 percent to a .343 percent PLAYER advantage.

So, the only way it really helps the casino to weigh dice is to weigh the six and one and hope that there are no hi-low betters at the table to clean them out.

That's why I don't think the casinos weigh dice.

Quote: SOOPOO

What would the motive of the craps dealers be to cheat? I really don't understand. They do not make any more money by their actions, do they? I would think the opposite.. if players are winning they would be likely to tip more. Is someone implying that a casino manager is watching and rewarding an employee who cheats players? The few times I have noticed dealer errors, and I do not think they were intentional, the casino has always made good.

I am not saying that the craps dealer was cheating. She probably thought that the chip had fallen off of her stack and didn't come from my stack.

If I hadn't counted my stack ($500) before I colored up, I would have accepted the $475 that the box-man counted.

teddys

You will have a lot of dealers that will correct other dealers about pay-outs, most will even pay you on a bet they didn't book for you when you have been betting it all night, if they missed it. The box will go along with the play out if they have seen you betting it!

There are some great dealers, that know the games they are dealing, but that is going away with the new dealers they have coming into the business now. Stop in some of the smaller casinos around Vegas, most of the dealers can't even speak English! You will find the same thing is some of the big casinos, but not as bad!

One only has to look at how low a casino will go to keep a player at the tables when they are drunk. The Terrance Watanabe’s Case is one of them:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jul/08/debt-case-dropped-against-vegas-casino-high-roller/

Make sure you read the links to the rest of the story that are posted!
Sure I know the guy was drunk and he deserved to lose, right?
Unfortunately some dealers look at drunks in that manner, along with the suits and management!

boymimbo

The question was about the casinos cheating, not the bad dice. The link was posted because some of us think that here in NV the casinos are buying cheap dice, not loaded dice, and they are not balanced, does it change to out-come of the game? A lot of us think so and you do see a lot of outside numbers, but will players bet them no, because they read in the books that they were bad bets!

So why not get off the bad dice, and get back to the casinos cheating question!

When some business gets caught cheating, a lot of employees knew what was going on at the time.
When asking about it after the fact, if they knew of what was going on when they were working at any job, they might answer yes. Then your next question might be why didn’t you become a Whistle-Blower?

You will always get the same answer I was afraid to say anything!

Quote: Headlock

That's interesting. Still not the kind of deterrent to cheating that I'm looking for, but a positive sign nonetheless. In this instance, what do you think was the dealers and box man's incentive for stiffing you $25?

I am not saying that the dealer cheated me. She probably thought that the $25 chip fell off of her stack and it didn't come from my stack. There was a disagreement about who's chip it was. It was her word against mine.

The box-man didn't cheat me. He counted the money that was passed to him by the dealer.

Dealers make mistakes everyday. Sometimes incorrect payouts are in your favor.

Quote: TheNightfly

mlk, you certainly are an amusing gent.

You ever see Glengarry Glen Ross?

"I used to be a dealer once... it's a tough racket." *sip*

I'm sure we all like the old, "Let me tell you about the time..." chestnut but it's little more than snips and snails and fantasy without... ummmm... what was it again? Oh yeah, proof.

Yes, I dealt for a time (not the 8 years you put in you old codger) and yes I know that there are a lot of dealers who have questionable morals at best. I also knew a lot of dealers who thought their **** didn't stink who liked to tell stories because it garnered the attention they craved...

Is it possible that dealers cheat players of their own volition? Certainly. Is it likely? Less so. Have you any proof?

Yes. I have the tapes from the video camera that I had strapped to my head every moment that I was dealing. I also have the signed, notarized affidavits from the dealers I knew that testified to their cheating on a regular basis.

Unfortunately, I cannot make these artifacts available to the public at the present time, which is unfortunate, because without the proof they provide, my personal experiences and recollections are nothing but delusional ramblings, and have no provenance. C'est la vie.