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TheNightfly
TheNightfly
Joined: May 21, 2010
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August 28th, 2010 at 5:26:44 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Therefore a perfectly honest dealer who has recently lost a lot of money to the players will have an increasing incentive to cheat, if he can get away with it, to restore the balance. This is often done without the house's knowledge.



mkl, the basic premise of this post was a question regarding the practical impossibility of proving that casinos don't cheat. Thus far neither I nor anyone else has been able to provide this proof. You, on the other hand use the word "often" when referring to the number of times a dealer will "cheat", or take a player's money to "restore the balance" of how much a table should be making. Keeping in mind that dealers rotate and are given breaks by other dealers and are not soleley responsible for what occurs on any given table during any given period of time, I'll be interested to read the evidence you have which will show that dealers often do this.

Dealers know that they are being scrutinized from many angles for the entirety of the time they are on the casino floor and especially when they are in a pit and dealing in front of an open tray - probably more so than are the players to whom they are dealing. If you think a dealer might feel his job could be in jeopardy by dealing a square game to a winning player, this same dealer will also know what repercussions he will face by making the slightest gaffe or indescretion during the course of play. No, I'm afraid you're way off the mark on this one.
Happiness is underrated
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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August 28th, 2010 at 6:34:00 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

mkl, the basic premise of this post was a question regarding the practical impossibility of proving that casinos don't cheat. Thus far neither I nor anyone else has been able to provide this proof. You, on the other hand use the word "often" when referring to the number of times a dealer will "cheat", or take a player's money to "restore the balance" of how much a table should be making. Keeping in mind that dealers rotate and are given breaks by other dealers and are not soleley responsible for what occurs on any given table during any given period of time, I'll be interested to read the evidence you have which will show that dealers often do this.

Dealers know that they are being scrutinized from many angles for the entirety of the time they are on the casino floor and especially when they are in a pit and dealing in front of an open tray - probably more so than are the players to whom they are dealing. If you think a dealer might feel his job could be in jeopardy by dealing a square game to a winning player, this same dealer will also know what repercussions he will face by making the slightest gaffe or indescretion during the course of play. No, I'm afraid you're way off the mark on this one.



I dealt blackjack for eight years. I avoided getting summarily fired by always maintaining a kissy-kissy attitude with my immediate superiors. Nonetheless, I was often--I would estimate over a dozen times--subjected to intense scrutiny after my table had had a bad shift/day/week. One time, I was pulled off the game and questioned after I had lost $15,000 to a single player. No doubt the surveillance tapes were pulled and gone over minutely as well.

If you've never been employed in this environment (and you obviously haven't, given your naivete), then you might not understand the crap that goes on, EVERY DAY.

And as far as cheating not happening? Don't make me laugh. I knew DOZENS of dealers who cheated on a regular basis. Some were dumping to a confederate, and thus had to destroy the other players to make up for it. Some cheated for themselves. Some cheated high-rollers at the behest of the house (and got double or triple shares of the tokes when they were divvied up). And yes, some dealers cheated the customers JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. It was an ego thing, they laughed and joked about it afterward in the break room, and they had all sorts of wonderful things to say about the players.

By the way, if you could listen to the conversation in the break room for five minutes, you'd never toke the dealer again. The people who toke heavily ("georges") are the ones held in the highest contempt.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
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August 28th, 2010 at 6:36:54 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

My point exactly. Why (when most gaming concerns are losing millions) would they cheat, because they always have the edge, and can certainly legally change the rules to increase their edge.



Because.
They.
Can.
(with TOTAL impunity)
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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August 28th, 2010 at 6:37:22 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

...This is often done without the house's knowledge.

Quote: TheNightfly

mkl, the basic premise of this post was a question regarding the practical impossibility of proving that casinos don't cheat. Thus far neither I nor anyone else has been able to provide this proof. You, on the other hand use the word "often" when referring to the number of times a dealer will "cheat".



NightFly, You're thinking that mkl suggests that it happens a lot.

I think mkl meant that WHEN it happens, more often than not, the house doesn't know it's happening.

----

EDIT:

We were typing at the same time.

Apparently, I'm mistaken.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
mkl654321
mkl654321
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August 28th, 2010 at 6:44:30 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

You actually know of a dealer who was fired because he was 'unlucky'? I doubt it. I would think a 'high end' dealer would be FAR more worried about his job if it was found out he was cheating a patron. I notice dealers are happy, not fearing for their jobs, when their tables are winning for the patrons. They, and the casinos, know that over time the house edge will take care of itself....



Not "a" dealer. More like seven or eight dealers. Fortunately, the charges being bogus, the casino didn't bother to document them (the dealer was just told to "go home, and pick up your final paycheck tomorrow"), so the dealers in question could find another job down the street the next day.

As I've said before, a dealer who is losing will come under more and more intense scrutiny. It ain't fair, and it ain't rational, but it is what it is. The happy dealers you've observed have just been raping the players for weeks, and have nothing to worry about. The same dealers, if they had had several losing shifts recently, would be breaking into a cold sweat.

And the casinos don't "know" diddly about the mathematics. They are under the delusion that the house edge means they should win over and over, constantly, without interruption, all the time. If Grandma wins three $5 hands in a row, she's a cheater or card counter and they will drag her back to the security room to strip-search her, or at least they will WANT to. I used only a minimal amount of hyperbole just then.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
cclub79
cclub79
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August 28th, 2010 at 6:51:09 PM permalink
A question: If it's so pervasive, has there never been a dealer who's acted as a "whistleblower" who could go to the authorities with proof? Having higher ups encourage cheating players is criminal, as is cheating the player. So every dealer would rather break the law to protect their job when they could blow the lid off of something, write a book, and be featured on The Today Show, Larry King, etc? Players are always THINKING they are being cheated, but if someone on the inside came out with proof, the press would eat it up. It would be like Tim Donaghy or Enron. I'm not saying I would want to come forward, but if there are dozens of dealers doing it in mkl's circle alone, that should mean that there are thousands. No one has ever bucked the system and rolled the dice for fame?

EDIT: The more I thought about this, the more crazy it sounds. If my bosses asked me to cheat, I'd assume that it was a setup to test my integrity, a la ABSCAM. I suppose all of those honorable dealers are just fired on the spot right away. Must be a lot of dealers that they spend weeks to train and hire that they can very quickly. Amazing that none of them have gotten together to blow the lid off of this insider cheating.

Also, how do they cheat at Roulette and/or Craps? Loaded dice? Shortpays? Magnetic Roulette ball that scans that table for an empty number?
cclub79
cclub79
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August 28th, 2010 at 7:01:44 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321


And the casinos don't "know" diddly about the mathematics. They are under the delusion that the house edge means they should win over and over, constantly, without interruption, all the time.



I'd kind of like to get confirmation from the Wizard on this one, since he is sometimes paid by casinos to do the very math that they don't know anything about.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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August 28th, 2010 at 7:23:13 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

If my bosses asked me to cheat, I'd assume that it was a setup to test my integrity...

Me too, but he never said the bosses ask them to cheat. Only that the bosses look at the numbers, and the dealers cheat on their own, to make the numbers look good.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
Nareed
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August 28th, 2010 at 7:23:33 PM permalink
I'll just say this once:

If you think the casinos may cheat you, don't go to any casinos.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
cclub79
cclub79
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August 28th, 2010 at 7:27:05 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Me too, but he never said the bosses ask them to cheat. Only that the bosses look at the numbers, and the dealers cheat on their own, to make the numbers look good.



Quote:


some cheated high-rollers at the behest of the house (and got double or triple shares of the tokes when they were divvied up)


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