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rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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August 27th, 2010 at 11:13:51 PM permalink
...addendum to my post

I also agree that the argument, that cansinos have no need to cheat and incentives not to cheat is a strong one. And I suppose at some point, Bill Gates had more than enough money that he could have stopped working long ago. But reasons why people do things aren't always this or that, or even one thing. Someone may cheat just because they can (or it's a challenge) I suspect. Don't ask me to prove that. thanks.
Fair is fair, if unprovable claims are insisted to be true, one should be able to use unprovable methods of debunking.
TheNightfly
TheNightfly
Joined: May 21, 2010
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August 27th, 2010 at 11:26:08 PM permalink
For those of you who may be dealers, I'll apologize in advance if I say something that you might find personally offensive but...

For someone to suggest that a dealer has "cheated" is to suggest that the dealer cares whether or not you win or lose your wager. If the dealer had been told by mgmt that the more money the table (or house) makes, the larger his paycheque will be then I can understand why this might possibly happen - but we all know that the dealer makes his lousy wages plus tips... and I think we also all know that dealers know they're more likely to be toked by winning, happy players. The casino's bottom line for that shift/day/year has no bearing on what that dealer will put into his pocket so why would they try to pull a fast one on a player? Answer - they wouldn't.

The dealers I've faced in my many years of casino gambling (including most Strip casinos, Reno casinos, AC casinos, "Indian" casinos and various other assorted casinos around the globe) are, for the most part disinterested automatons who are there to get through their shift as smoothly and quickly as possible and go home to the wife and kids as soon as possible. If their tray needs 3 fills in a shift they're no more likely to care than if they bust the biggest whale in the joint.

If someone is going to suggest that a casino has told one or more dealers to stiff the players when they think they can get away with it then I'd say that's a pretty far fetched accusation.

Dealers make errors and if a supervisor/manager/gaming commission rep sides in the favor of the house when you know that they're in the wrong then you've got a legitimate beef at that point but do you think that your $5 - $500 bet in question is really going to make much if any difference to them at the end of the day? Not likely.
Happiness is underrated
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
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August 28th, 2010 at 7:17:50 AM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly


For someone to suggest that a dealer has "cheated" is to suggest that the dealer cares whether or not you win or lose your wager.


Dealers certainly cheat. It is one of the biggest holes in the casino. But, they cheat on behalf of themselves, not the casino. Most often this occurs with an accomplice at the table posing as a player. Sometimes it's just outright theft.

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
TheNightfly
TheNightfly
Joined: May 21, 2010
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August 28th, 2010 at 7:52:08 AM permalink
As the title of this thread is "Casinos don't cheat" I assumed that you were looking for proof one way or another about casinos cheating players. Yes, I'm sure that dealer/player collusion has taken its fair share from the house but if we're talking about a dealer "cheating" a player by purposely taking their money in an illegal (or "against the house rules" if you will) fashion for the sole purpose of adding this amount of money to the daily take then I would hope that you would agree that this is highly unlikely as there is absolutely no upside for the dealer. If a dealer is going to squirrel chips he certainly isn't going to potentially rouse the suspicion of a player by taking their money when there's a tray of chips in front of him. Sheesh.
Happiness is underrated
miplet
miplet
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
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August 28th, 2010 at 8:29:57 AM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

Dealers certainly cheat. It is one of the biggest holes in the casino. But, they cheat on behalf of themselves, not the casino. Most often this occurs with an accomplice at the table posing as a player. Sometimes it's just outright theft.

--Dorothy


Or they just outright steal chips from other players.
Quote: various wsgc documents


While playing cards as a patron, he admittedly took another player’s chips.
...
Set aside a portion of a player’s winning wager and dropped it in his tip box.
...
Placed or pressed toke bets without the authorization of casino customers while working as a craps dealer.

“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
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August 28th, 2010 at 8:50:33 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

Or they just outright steal chips from other players.


Yes, absolutely. But, this theft is not to benefit the casino -- that's my point.

Thanks for the examples. You are a true munchkin.

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
Headlock
Headlock
Joined: Feb 9, 2010
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August 28th, 2010 at 9:56:49 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Like its big brother in Nevada, the New Jersey Gaming Control Board is a paper tiger.

I was at a crap table at the GarbageCana in Atlantic City several years ago. The table had been winning--BIG. The shooter had a point of eight. He shot the dice---and the dice went behind the dealer's chip stacks, Only three of us players could see the result--five-three, winner on the line! The three of us cheered while everyone else strained to see. The STICKMAN THEN CALLED "SEVEN-OUT" and HIT THE DICE WITH HIS STICK, "destroying the dice"!! The dealers then swooped up several thousand dollars' worth of bets. Of course, the three of us screamed bloody murder. We wound up stomping over to the little booth where the Gaming agent sat. We explained what had happened, and demanded action. He refused. We demanded that the casino surveillance tapes be examined. He refused. We demanded to see casino mangement. He refused to even try to talk to them. The upshot was that we returned to the table, demanded to see the tapes and/or the casino manager, and were ultimately thrown out, after about 45 minutes of fruitless effort.

The guy in the booth might as well be dead, or wearing a clown suit.

NJ is the only gaming jurisdiction that has a live (or dead) representative on site. For all the good it does.



I saw something similar once. The dice landed and the stickman moved the stick as if to collect the dice and swiftly and deftly turned one die before making the call. "Seven Out!"
Headlock
Headlock
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August 28th, 2010 at 9:58:24 AM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

As the title of this thread is "Casinos don't cheat" I assumed that you were looking for proof one way or another about casinos cheating players. Yes, I'm sure that dealer/player collusion has taken its fair share from the house but if we're talking about a dealer "cheating" a player by purposely taking their money in an illegal (or "against the house rules" if you will) fashion for the sole purpose of adding this amount of money to the daily take then I would hope that you would agree that this is highly unlikely as there is absolutely no upside for the dealer. If a dealer is going to squirrel chips he certainly isn't going to potentially rouse the suspicion of a player by taking their money when there's a tray of chips in front of him. Sheesh.



Actually I'm looking for proof of a deterrent. Specifically gaming commission officials checking the dice and cards while in play. So far nothing.
FatGeezus
FatGeezus
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
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August 28th, 2010 at 10:16:10 AM permalink
I was playing craps and standing at the end of the table next to the dealer. I was leaving the table and coloring up a stack of green chips ($25) that totaled $500.

The dealer slid the stack behind her stacks to the box-man. While the box-man was counting out the chips, I noticed a green chip behind the dealers stack of chips. She placed it on top of her chips. The box-man said $475. I said it should be $500 and that the dealer did not slide the entire stack over and placed a green chip on her stack.

While acknowledging she did put a green chip on her stack, she claimed it fell off of her stack.

Getting nowhere with the box-man, I went over to the CCC and explained what happened. He said to follow him and we both walked over to the crap table. He pointed at the dealer and said give him a green chip. Without hesitation she handed me MY green chip.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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August 28th, 2010 at 10:40:54 AM permalink
What would the motive of the craps dealers be to cheat? I really don't understand. They do not make any more money by their actions, do they? I would think the opposite.. if players are winning they would be likely to tip more. Is someone implying that a casino manager is watching and rewarding an employee who cheats players? The few times I have noticed dealer errors, and I do not think they were intentional, the casino has always made good.

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