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SOOPOO
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August 29th, 2010 at 4:15:22 AM permalink
Ok dealers out there... Has any one of you ever been told by a supervisor that you are a bad dealer in that the players are winning ? I could see you being chastised for errors, slow dealing, rudeness, but not the results of the games. Can anyone confirm what MLK alleges? As far as the possibility that dealers have an accomplice at their table, that is very possible, as there is a clear motive... all money illegally gained could be split amongst the accomplice and the dealer. Many years ago, at the old Alladin, I sat at a $5 BJ table. The dealer was so 'flashy' that his hole card was almost always seen by me (and others?) at the table. Not exactly sure what to do, I intermittently took advantage (standing with 14 when dealer has 10 showing, but 6 'hidden'), but not hitting hard 18 when I know dealer has 20. I made about $30 after an hour, thinking I would have made more, and just felt too nervous to make it worth my while. I Point being, If I was his accomplice it would have been easy to take significant money from the casino. Exactly how much would alert the casino to scrutinize us is something only the casino people know.
cclub79
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August 29th, 2010 at 5:52:31 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

(You're way off the mark about casinos and politicians having equal power: casinos is to politicans as herd of elephants is to blind, old mice dying of AIDS.)



You obviously haven't seen the AC casino numbers recently. I think you've got the two animals mixed up. You have an entire agency in the Attorney General's office who's job it is to find cheating. I can't believe that NO DEALER who experienced this rampant cheating and was let go for any reason wouldn't go to them and start an investigation that led somewhere, if the cheating is everywhere. Nevertheless, I think I'm going to do my own investigating with the NJDGE and see what I can find. Your posts will be a good start. I have nothing to lose as I'm not employed by a casino and if they kill me over their cheating, then I guess I'll just be another collateral loss caused by the elephants.
cclub79
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August 29th, 2010 at 6:07:48 AM permalink
Quote: rick

In Nevada they do not balance the dice or even measure them any more, and yes they use to do it, there are no rules for the dice and I know that someone is going to say there is, but will you please show me them!



See this is where the logic falls apart. OK, so there are dice that are unbalanced and will show certain numbers more than others. Well, are they balanced to produce more 7s? So at a $10 table when some bigshot comes by and drops $500 on the Don't, do they change them to dice that roll more, what, non-sevens? Or are they hoping there will be a 7 on the Come Out, and if not, oh well, looks like we lost more because of our fake dice! More 12s? That's only going to help on the Comeout, but with so many people betting more on the Horn, even with the high house edge that's probably a loser for the casino in the long run. People like to bet the Horn on non-comeouts, so the extra 12s would just be payouts with minimal losses (Come Bets). If it were MY JOB to come up with a way to balance the dice to provide the casino with an undetectable advantage, I'd make sure the dice were perfectly fair. It's the only way they have an edge on EVERY BET!

I really hope the Wizard weighs in, because I'm starting to feel like Oscar from The Office episode (appropriately named) "Mafia"... Pam and Jim are on their honeymoon. So there's not the usual balance between "sane" and "others." Toby has mentally checked out since June. It's a very dangerous time. The "coalition for reason" is extremely weak.

The entire transcript is here, and it is paralleling our discussion: http://www.officequotes.net/no6-05.php

Oh and the Glen Ross movie reference was perfect....
"You just cost me six thousand dollars...."
"What are you going to do about it, as---le?"
"Ooooh, Imma have your job, sh----ed."
FleaStiff
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August 29th, 2010 at 6:14:37 AM permalink
Heck, look at the data developed by Persi Diaconis at Stanford when he had a pair of shaved dice manufactured to exacting standards.... the "edge" is hardly noticeable and was actually lost amidst the error-rate of his graduate assistants who had to keep track of the rolls.

All the casinos do from time to time is make certain that there are only five dice in the bowl and then they occasionally check the serial numbers on them. Thats it. The Venetian retires their dice promptly and never gives dice away as momentos but other places seem rather lax about it.
teddys
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August 29th, 2010 at 7:26:16 AM permalink
Quote: cclub79

See this is where the logic falls apart. OK, so there are dice that are unbalanced and will show certain numbers more than others. Well, are they balanced to produce more 7s? So at a $10 table when some bigshot comes by and drops $500 on the Don't, do they change them to dice that roll more, what, non-sevens? Or are they hoping there will be a 7 on the Come Out, and if not, oh well, looks like we lost more because of our fake dice! More 12s? That's only going to help on the Comeout, but with so many people betting more on the Horn, even with the high house edge that's probably a loser for the casino in the long run. People like to bet the Horn on non-comeouts, so the extra 12s would just be payouts with minimal losses (Come Bets). If it were MY JOB to come up with a way to balance the dice to provide the casino with an undetectable advantage, I'd make sure the dice were perfectly fair. It's the only way they have an edge on EVERY BET!

Thank you for saying this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As to this topic, I had an incident happen to me the other day at craps that shocked me to the core. I was betting $10 on the don't and laying $60 on every point (max lay). I don't usually bet this method, and was trying it as a lark, so I wasn't too familiar with the payouts, but had the basic idea -- win $30, $40, or $50 on every seven out, pretty simple, yeah? Anyway, the point was a nine so I put down my lay of two greens and two reds, and the shooter sevened out. The base dealer reached over and started to pay me, but only paid thirty on the odds for some reason. I, and others, corrected her that it was a $50 total pay. She made the correct payment and I picked up my chips. Suddenly, the other base dealer spoke up and said, "You owe him $10. You took the cap off his odds and used it to pay him." I hadn't noticed this supposed error. (I'm pretty sure I would have noticed it had it happened, but I can't be 100% sure). Anyway, I had picked up my chips and there was no way to verify, so the box said, "Pay him." I picked up an extra ten dollars, colored up, and walked away in a daze. To have a dealer on the other end of the table correct an error in my favor was beyond my comprehension. I didn't know whether to tip the dealer, take a sh*t or wind my watch.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
boymimbo
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August 29th, 2010 at 8:46:21 AM permalink
I agree with most of the comments regarding dice. To weigh the dice for sevens, ALL dice would need to be balanced for two numbers on the opposite sides of the dice: a 6 and 1, 5 and 2, or 4 and 3. The shooter can pick any two dice out of the set. The weighting of dice would have also favor heavily the outcome of the opposite numbers. If you weigh all the dice for ONE number, then you are far more likely to throw hardways on the numbers that were weighted.

If a 4 and 3 were weighted, you would see a corresponding frequency of hard sixes and eights, and sixes and eights. If a 5 and 2 were weighted, you would see a correspondingly frequency of hard 10s and 4s, and fours and tens. And if the 6 and 1 were weighted, you would see a correspondingly higher frequency of aces and midnights.

Let's say, for example, the dice were weighted enough for each of the weighed numbers to occur 20 percent of the time, and therefore the other numbers come up 15 percent of the time.

Let's say that the 6 and 1 are weighted.
The PLAYER advantage on the 2 and 12 turn to 24 percent. (.20 x .20) * 30 - 1 * (1 - .20 * .20) = .04 x 30 - .96 = .24.
The HA on the single roll 3 and yo is 4 percent.
The HA on the PLACE six and eight change to .07143
The HA on the PLACE five and nine changes to .08364.
The HA on the PLACE four and ten changes to .08515.
On the pass line itself, the HA changes from 1.414 to 5.324 percent.
On the don't pass line the HA changes from 1.356 to a 1.324 percent player advantage.

Weighing a 5 and 2 DECREASES the PASS line HA from 1.414 percent to .638 percent.
Weighing a 4 and 3 DECREASES the PASS line HA from 1.414 percent to a .343 percent PLAYER advantage.

So, the only way it really helps the casino to weigh dice is to weigh the six and one and hope that there are no hi-low betters at the table to clean them out.

That's why I don't think the casinos weigh dice.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
FatGeezus
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August 29th, 2010 at 9:32:05 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

What would the motive of the craps dealers be to cheat? I really don't understand. They do not make any more money by their actions, do they? I would think the opposite.. if players are winning they would be likely to tip more. Is someone implying that a casino manager is watching and rewarding an employee who cheats players? The few times I have noticed dealer errors, and I do not think they were intentional, the casino has always made good.



I am not saying that the craps dealer was cheating. She probably thought that the chip had fallen off of her stack and didn't come from my stack.

If I hadn't counted my stack ($500) before I colored up, I would have accepted the $475 that the box-man counted.
superrick
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August 29th, 2010 at 9:39:22 AM permalink
teddys

You will have a lot of dealers that will correct other dealers about pay-outs, most will even pay you on a bet they didn't book for you when you have been betting it all night, if they missed it. The box will go along with the play out if they have seen you betting it!

There are some great dealers, that know the games they are dealing, but that is going away with the new dealers they have coming into the business now. Stop in some of the smaller casinos around Vegas, most of the dealers can't even speak English! You will find the same thing is some of the big casinos, but not as bad!

One only has to look at how low a casino will go to keep a player at the tables when they are drunk. The Terrance Watanabeís Case is one of them:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jul/08/debt-case-dropped-against-vegas-casino-high-roller/

Make sure you read the links to the rest of the story that are posted!
Sure I know the guy was drunk and he deserved to lose, right?
Unfortunately some dealers look at drunks in that manner, along with the suits and management!

boymimbo

The question was about the casinos cheating, not the bad dice. The link was posted because some of us think that here in NV the casinos are buying cheap dice, not loaded dice, and they are not balanced, does it change to out-come of the game? A lot of us think so and you do see a lot of outside numbers, but will players bet them no, because they read in the books that they were bad bets!

So why not get off the bad dice, and get back to the casinos cheating question!

When some business gets caught cheating, a lot of employees knew what was going on at the time.
When asking about it after the fact, if they knew of what was going on when they were working at any job, they might answer yes. Then your next question might be why didnít you become a Whistle-Blower?

You will always get the same answer I was afraid to say anything!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
FatGeezus
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August 29th, 2010 at 9:44:52 AM permalink
Quote: Headlock

That's interesting. Still not the kind of deterrent to cheating that I'm looking for, but a positive sign nonetheless. In this instance, what do you think was the dealers and box man's incentive for stiffing you $25?




I am not saying that the dealer cheated me. She probably thought that the $25 chip fell off of her stack and it didn't come from my stack. There was a disagreement about who's chip it was. It was her word against mine.

The box-man didn't cheat me. He counted the money that was passed to him by the dealer.

Dealers make mistakes everyday. Sometimes incorrect payouts are in your favor.
mkl654321
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August 29th, 2010 at 11:28:49 AM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

mlk, you certainly are an amusing gent.

You ever see Glengarry Glen Ross?

"I used to be a dealer once... it's a tough racket." *sip*

I'm sure we all like the old, "Let me tell you about the time..." chestnut but it's little more than snips and snails and fantasy without... ummmm... what was it again? Oh yeah, proof.

Yes, I dealt for a time (not the 8 years you put in you old codger) and yes I know that there are a lot of dealers who have questionable morals at best. I also knew a lot of dealers who thought their **** didn't stink who liked to tell stories because it garnered the attention they craved...

Is it possible that dealers cheat players of their own volition? Certainly. Is it likely? Less so. Have you any proof?



Yes. I have the tapes from the video camera that I had strapped to my head every moment that I was dealing. I also have the signed, notarized affidavits from the dealers I knew that testified to their cheating on a regular basis.

Unfortunately, I cannot make these artifacts available to the public at the present time, which is unfortunate, because without the proof they provide, my personal experiences and recollections are nothing but delusional ramblings, and have no provenance. C'est la vie.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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August 29th, 2010 at 11:32:07 AM permalink
Quote: cclub79

You obviously haven't seen the AC casino numbers recently. I think you've got the two animals mixed up. You have an entire agency in the Attorney General's office who's job it is to find cheating. I can't believe that NO DEALER who experienced this rampant cheating and was let go for any reason wouldn't go to them and start an investigation that led somewhere, if the cheating is everywhere. Nevertheless, I think I'm going to do my own investigating with the NJDGE and see what I can find. Your posts will be a good start. I have nothing to lose as I'm not employed by a casino and if they kill me over their cheating, then I guess I'll just be another collateral loss caused by the elephants.



I assume that the numbers you refer to are the reduced revenue figures for AC in recent months. I don't see how those numbers are relevant to the topic--the effectiveness of Gaming Control in AC or NV, or lack thereof.

I would, however, reiterate my comment about the political clout of casinos in BOTH jurisdictions.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
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August 29th, 2010 at 2:57:33 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock



Most of us would agree that cheating the player occurred with some regularity during the Mob control days.



When the Nevada Gaming Control Board was formed in 1955, they found that every game in every Nevada casino was rigged, there were no honest casinos. Of course, every casino was run by the Mob, what did they expect. Marked cards, loaded dice, gaffed wheels, stacked decks, slots that never paid off. It was incredible. And collusion between dealers and suits was rampant, it was amazing the casinos made any profits at all. Every single rule a dealer has to follow is the direct result of cheating in the past. Dealers used to hide money and chips everywhere on their person. In their cuffs, collar, hair, belts, socks, and even in their mouths. Those were the days..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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August 29th, 2010 at 3:14:04 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

By the way, if you could listen to the conversation in the break room for five minutes, you'd never toke the dealer again. The people who toke heavily ("georges") are the ones held in the highest contempt.



I was a bartender years ago and I felt the customers who tipped big were chumps. Its because they think they can buy you with a big tip, and the opposite is true. I always took small tips with no emotion, as I'm sure most dealers do.

I read something interesting years ago. Mob guys always tip big, real big. Sinatra used to carry nothing but a roll of hundreds. They do it to show contempt for the person their tipping, that they've 'made it', and the person they're tipping hasn't. It works. They envy and hate the tipper all at the same time, which is the intention. When Sinatra gave you a hundred dollar bill for parking his car in 1960, he wasn't saying "Great job, pal." He was showing you how big the gap was between you and him, how much of a somebody he was, and how much of a nobody you were.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Headlock
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August 29th, 2010 at 3:26:20 PM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

Silly boy ...

There is no porcelain tea pot in orbit around mars. Prove it ...

You can't?

I guess there must be one.

--Dorothy



"Em! Em! Dorothy's eaten her crayons again!"

"No, Henry. I took them away because she was scribbling on the walls!"

"Well, I suppose she'll be posting nonsense on the internet forums again."
EvenBob
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August 29th, 2010 at 3:36:36 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

And the casinos don't "know" diddly about the mathematics. They are under the delusion that the house edge means they should win over and over, constantly, without interruption, all the time.



Funny but true. You'd think your average suit in the pit would know his game inside out, yet they usually don't know squat about the math of the game. They're almost all former dealers and when they put the suit on, its like they leave half their brain at home. Now they can finally relax, and make somebody elses life miserable for a change. You'd think that with a promotion to management, they'd want to learn all they can about what they do, but they don't. They just get fat and lazy. Human nature, I guess.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Headlock
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August 30th, 2010 at 1:20:38 PM permalink
I'll try to steer this thread back to the original topic.

Is there any evidence that gaming controls are effective and enforced to ensure casino patrons get a fair game?

Specifically, has anyone seen gaming commission personnel in the casino measuring and weighing dice and examining cards?

Thanks to superrick for pointing me to The Bear Growls website. One thing I found particularly interesting was the article about Colorado casinos required to keep balancing calipers near the craps tables. I am going to Colorado this weekend, and I intend to ask about that. I may even ask to see the dice balanced if I see an opportunity.

As an aside, I play craps almost exclusively, and I have gambled in Colorado 4 weekends this year and 3 times come home a winner. Certainly not a scientific indicator, but much better than the results I've had in Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nevada.

To those who consider it ridiculous to think biased dice could be in the casinos favor, pay attention to where the money is. You don't often see much money on the don't side, nor on the horn bets. And I don't believe many players change their playing strategy to take advantage of a preponderance of one number or another. A few times long ago I would switch from Pass/Come to Don't Pass/Don't Come and the results were almost always bad, so I don't do that anymore.

As for cards, I've seen them break out new decks and count them down. So what? Once they go in the shuffler, you'll never see them all face up again.
SanchoPanza
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August 30th, 2010 at 2:30:54 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

pay attention to where the money is. You don't often see much money on the don't side, nor on the horn bets. And I don't believe many players change their playing strategy to take advantage of a preponderance of one number or another. A few times long ago I would switch from Pass/Come to Don't Pass/Don't Come and the results were almost always bad, so I don't do that anymore.



To what would you attribute the imbalance of money on pass and don't pass?
cclub79
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August 30th, 2010 at 2:42:09 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock


To those who consider it ridiculous to think biased dice could be in the casinos favor, pay attention to where the money is. You don't often see much money on the don't side, nor on the horn bets. And I don't believe many players change their playing strategy to take advantage of a preponderance of one number or another. A few times long ago I would switch from Pass/Come to Don't Pass/Don't Come and the results were almost always bad, so I don't do that anymore.



Did you check out page 6 of this thread and boymimbo's excellent analysis? If the bosses don't do math well, I have a hard time believing they'd be able to figure out how to weight the dice to give the house an edge, when they already have one. But let's put that argument aside and assume that the people in charge are math experts. The only one that might make sense (based on your Pass>Don't Pass assumption) is to balance 1 die on the 1 and 1 die on the 6. Perhaps this is why there are FIVE dice. You have a good chance of picking both dice that are calibrated to the same side, as in both 1 or both 6, meaning you'll have LESS 7s. So here's my question. You have 5 dice. You want to make them unbalanced to favor the house more than they already do. What do you do to each of the five dice? I'm not asking rhetorically; I'd like to know how it would be mathematically possible to get more out of the player with 5 dice that you can manipulate. If we can prove or disprove the math here as a group, we will be closer to knowing whether the house can cheat by putting in weighted dice.
Headlock
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August 30th, 2010 at 2:47:27 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

Did you check out page 6 of this thread and boymimbo's excellent analysis? If the bosses don't do math well, I have a hard time believing they'd be able to figure out how to weight the dice to give the house an edge (when they already have one). The only one that might make sense (based on your Pass>Don't Pass assumption) is to balance 1 die on the 1 and 1 die on the 6. Perhaps this is why there are FIVE dice. You have a good chance of picking both dice that are calibrated to the same side, as in both 1 or both 6, meaning you'll have LESS 7s. So here's my question. You have 5 dice. You want to make them unbalanced to favor the house more than they already do. What do you do to each of the five dice? I'm not asking rhetorically; I'd like to know how it would be mathematically possible to get more out of the player with 5 dice that you can manipulate. If we can prove or disprove the math here as a group, we will be closer to knowing whether the house can cheat by putting in weighted dice.



Off topic again. Does the gaming commission check the dice or the cards while in play?
Edited:
Sorry, my reply was a bit terse and I didn't mean it that way. I would lean more to the possibility of the boxman switching one die for another on a stick change or die off the table.
mkl654321
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August 30th, 2010 at 2:49:07 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

Did you check out page 6 of this thread and boymimbo's excellent analysis? If the bosses don't do math well, I have a hard time believing they'd be able to figure out how to weight the dice to give the house an edge, when they already have one. But let's put that argument aside and assume that the people in charge are math experts. The only one that might make sense (based on your Pass>Don't Pass assumption) is to balance 1 die on the 1 and 1 die on the 6. Perhaps this is why there are FIVE dice. You have a good chance of picking both dice that are calibrated to the same side, as in both 1 or both 6, meaning you'll have LESS 7s. So here's my question. You have 5 dice. You want to make them unbalanced to favor the house more than they already do. What do you do to each of the five dice? I'm not asking rhetorically; I'd like to know how it would be mathematically possible to get more out of the player with 5 dice that you can manipulate. If we can prove or disprove the math here as a group, we will be closer to knowing whether the house can cheat by putting in weighted dice.



As far as that goes, the casino could put in biased "Don't" dice if a preponderance of money was being bet on the Pass Line, and could put in biased "Do" dice to destroy a single big Don't Pass bettor.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
cclub79
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August 30th, 2010 at 2:57:12 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

As far as that goes, the casino could put in biased "Don't" dice if a preponderance of money was being bet on the Pass Line, and could put in biased "Do" dice to destroy a single big Don't Pass bettor.



Fair enough. Even though I don't agree that they could, for argument's sake I'll concede that they could remove the dice from the table and substitute in new dice without any players at a table noticing. Now, how do you take 5 available dice and make them pro-Don't Pass Line and anti Pass. Not 2 dice, 5 dice.

And Headlock, your first two lines are "Casinos don't cheat...prove it...Or at least prove there is a deterrent." If we can prove that there is no way to shave 5 dice that would assure a better house outcome, would that not prove it, in the Craps pit at least?

and Re: Your Edit...if they just change 1 die, then 7s will still have the exact same chance of hitting. All you could do by shaving 1 die is make low, middle, or high numbers come up more.

But if we want to strictly stay on topic, someone just call the Attorney General's office in NJ. Say you are doing research for a thesis.
Headlock
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August 30th, 2010 at 3:08:35 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

Fair enough. Even though I don't agree that they could, for argument's sake I'll concede that they could remove the dice from the table and substitute in new dice without any players at a table noticing. Now, how do you take 5 available dice and make them pro-Don't Pass Line and anti Pass. Not 2 dice, 5 dice.

And Headlock, your first two lines are "Casinos don't cheat...prove it...Or at least prove there is a deterrent." If we can prove that there is no way to shave 5 dice that would assure a better house outcome, would that not prove it, in the Craps pit at least?

But if we want to strictly stay on topic, someone just call the Attorney General's office in NJ. Say you are doing research for a thesis.



Well, I don't think "we can prove that there is no way to shave 5 dice that would assure a better house outcome" as that was one of the methods employed by casinos in the Mob days. It worked for them.

"But if we want to strictly stay on topic, someone just call the Attorney General's office in NJ. Say you are doing research for a thesis." This is a great idea.

If there is a deterrent to casino cheating, why are there so few examples from the hundreds or thousands of members of this forum?

I have gambled in Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, South Dakota and Nevada and have never seen a gaming commission official in the casino.
Headlock
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August 30th, 2010 at 3:12:30 PM permalink
I've seen blackjack tables that have sensors in the betting area that "read" the amount bet from the identifiers in the chips, ostensibly to track each players average wager. I imagine they can do the same thing on the craps table.
Nareed
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August 30th, 2010 at 3:13:28 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

If there is a deterrent to casino cheating, why are there so few examples from the hundreds or thousands of members of this forum?



The deterrent for casino cheating is called the houase advantage. All casinos will win money in the long term in games played by the rules, since those games always favor the hosue. There is no need to cheat.

Quote:

I have gambled in Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, South Dakota and Nevada and have never seen a gaming commission official in the casino.



I have lived in the capital of Mexico for over 40 years, but I've never run accross a cabinet secretary or a sitting president. I guess they don't exist.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
cclub79
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August 30th, 2010 at 3:16:52 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock



I have gambled in Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, South Dakota and Nevada and have never seen a gaming commission official in the casino.



And as DJ said, this is weird to me, because I've done almost all of my gambling in AC, and it's second nature to me that they are there. I'm used to seeing the CCC on the floor just yards from the games at all times. So I should be fair and say I wouldn't care to venture at all what happens outside of NJ. I yield to everyone else on that.
Headlock
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August 30th, 2010 at 3:21:09 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

The deterrent for casino cheating is called the houase advantage. All casinos will win money in the long term in games played by the rules, since those games always favor the hosue. There is no need to cheat.



I am not trying to convince anyone that casinos cheat. I simply asked for examples of gaming commission officials monitoring the games.

But your comment is incredibly naive, and I don't care for your condescending tone. From the content of your posts I believe I have gambled much more than you. If the gaming industry is losing millions of dollars, and according to recent published reports they are, there is an incentive to cheat. I know they have the edge at craps, but is it enough to pay the overhead?
mkl654321
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August 30th, 2010 at 3:31:36 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

The deterrent for casino cheating is called the houase advantage. All casinos will win money in the long term in games played by the rules, since those games always favor the hosue. There is no need to cheat.



There is no NEED, true, but there's plenty of incentive.

Saying that the casinos won't cheat you because they already stand to make money is like saying the car mechanic won't pad the bill by $100 because you're already paying him $400.

To reword your phrasing, "The deterrent for (should be "against", but I'll paraphrase as closely as possible) businesses cheating their customers is that businesses already make a gross profit." Note that I said GROSS profit. The casinos' house edge is like the markup on a retail item. It does not by itself assure a NET profit.

In any case, what makes you think that simply because a casino, or any other entity, makes money, that it does not want to make MORE money? In the case of cheating the customer (casino or noncasino businesses), the two deterrents are a) the risk of getting caught and b) moral scruples. In the case of casinos, a) is negligible, and b) is virtually nonexistent.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Zcore13
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August 30th, 2010 at 3:40:21 PM permalink
Although the original poster makes what I feel to be a silly comment in thatcasinos cheat and doesn't see any deterents to cheating, I'll provide a bit of information for those interested. Here is a link to the Nevada gaming board complaint agenda. http://gaming.nv.gov/complaints.htm These are cases of major violations. Minor violations are done with "write-ups", much like a food inspection for restaraunts. If the minor violations are not corrected, the casino could be shut down.

There is no reason for a casino to risk their license/business to purposely cheat. They don't have to cheat to win. There are so many check and balances in a casino. Cards, dice, chips are maticulously tracked. A casino knows where EVERY card and EVERY die is at all times or there is trouble. I don't know about Nevada as much, because I'm in Arizona, but my Casino self reports all the time. It's not worth getting caught on something. You're safer self reporting and fixing the issue.

To mkl654321, NJ is not the only place with live reps on site. Arizona requires a Gaming Inspector be on duty at every Casino 24 hours a day. If there is not one available, the only one scheduled has to leave for some reason, or any other reason makes it so that there is no inspector, the Casino must remove all patrons and close the doors until an Inspector shows up. Most Casinos have multiple inspectors at any one time to prevent the risk of having to close.

Tiltpoul, your story on the Ultimate Texas Holdem is proof that the gaming regulations work. The staff obviously had some miscommunication if some were doing it one way and some were doing it a different way. You brought this to the commission persons attention and he made a ruling. You were correct and afterwards there is no doubt in my mind there was an incident report filed with the commission detailing the situation. I would not refer to the situation as cheating though.

This thread could go on and on forever. Yes there are bad individuals in every profession. A dealer may try and work with a player hear and there, but for the vast majority of dealers it's not worth risking the paycheck, benefits, 401k, etc for the chance at a few hundred or thousand dollars. Security measures are too tight. 99.99% of the time that you gamble, the odds are exactly as they should be. You will most likeley lose without any need for cheating.
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
teddys
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August 30th, 2010 at 3:48:21 PM permalink
It is human nature to suspect cheating when you lose big. Every person I have talked to who has lost big over a certain period has told me they suspect cheating. Sometimes your luck just turns bad. It is hard for us to fathom that because we have no frame of reference other than some mathematical models, and even that can't prepare you for the shock of just losing and losing over and over again. So you look for other ways to justify it. Example: I play blackjack mostly in one casino because I like their drink service and comps. I have NEVER had a winning session at this casino, other than marginal wins. I would say I have played 20 sessions and have LOST 17 of them, and won a unit or two on the others. This casino is in bankruptcy, so of course it gets me thinking, oh, maybe they removed the tens from the deck, make their balance sheet look better, etc. It becomes a psychological spiral. But then I need to bring myself back to reality and realize that it is just BAD LUCK.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Nareed
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August 30th, 2010 at 4:03:51 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

In any case, what makes you think that simply because a casino, or any other entity, makes money, that it does not want to make MORE money? In the case of cheating the customer (casino or noncasino businesses), the two deterrents are a) the risk of getting caught and b) moral scruples. In the case of casinos, a) is negligible, and b) is virtually nonexistent.



Any business that cheats its customers is soon left without any customers to cheat. The only exceptions are coercive monopolies, companies that are the only ones allowed to offfer a certain good or service by government compulsion. Back when there was only one telephone service provider in mexico, government-owned, they cheated customers all the time. Your only other choice was to do without a telephone.

Once the comapny was privatized and, in time, other companies provided competition, including cell phone companies, service prices went down.

So, sure, a casino could cheat. It would lose more business than it gained on cheating, though.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
mkl654321
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August 30th, 2010 at 5:28:19 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Any business that cheats its customers is soon left without any customers to cheat. The only exceptions are coercive monopolies, companies that are the only ones allowed to offfer a certain good or service by government compulsion. Back when there was only one telephone service provider in mexico, government-owned, they cheated customers all the time. Your only other choice was to do without a telephone.

Once the comapny was privatized and, in time, other companies provided competition, including cell phone companies, service prices went down.

So, sure, a casino could cheat. It would lose more business than it gained on cheating, though.



The above statement makes the rather large attendant presumption that the cheating will be detected, coupled with the even larger presumption that said cheating will be exposed for all to see even if one person DOES manage to detect it.

As I've said elsewhere, I have been cheated many times, often rather blatantly, and there was, as a practical matter, nothing I could do about it. And even mentioning it casually to anyone else provoked the same knee-jerk response: "Why would they cheat you? They always win anyway!!!!!!" LOL, and puke.

To give you a noncasino example, most new car dealers charge for "dealer prep" and "undercoating", amounting to hundreds of dollars, even though the "dealer prep" consists of spraying the interior with air freshener and the "undercoating" is nonexistent. This has been going on for decades. Those car dealers are still in business. 'Nuff said.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Headlock
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August 30th, 2010 at 5:51:06 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Although the original poster makes what I feel to be a silly comment in thatcasinos cheat and doesn't see any deterents to cheating, I'll provide a bit of information for those interested. Here is a link to the Nevada gaming board complaint agenda. http://gaming.nv.gov/complaints.htm These are cases of major violations. Minor violations are done with "write-ups", much like a food inspection for restaraunts. If the minor violations are not corrected, the casino could be shut down.

There is no reason for a casino to risk their license/business to purposely cheat. They don't have to cheat to win. There are so many check and balances in a casino. Cards, dice, chips are maticulously tracked. A casino knows where EVERY card and EVERY die is at all times or there is trouble. I don't know about Nevada as much, because I'm in Arizona, but my Casino self reports all the time. It's not worth getting caught on something. You're safer self reporting and fixing the issue.

To mkl654321, NJ is not the only place with live reps on site. Arizona requires a Gaming Inspector be on duty at every Casino 24 hours a day. If there is not one available, the only one scheduled has to leave for some reason, or any other reason makes it so that there is no inspector, the Casino must remove all patrons and close the doors until an Inspector shows up. Most Casinos have multiple inspectors at any one time to prevent the risk of having to close.

Tiltpoul, your story on the Ultimate Texas Holdem is proof that the gaming regulations work. The staff obviously had some miscommunication if some were doing it one way and some were doing it a different way. You brought this to the commission persons attention and he made a ruling. You were correct and afterwards there is no doubt in my mind there was an incident report filed with the commission detailing the situation. I would not refer to the situation as cheating though.

This thread could go on and on forever. Yes there are bad individuals in every profession. A dealer may try and work with a player hear and there, but for the vast majority of dealers it's not worth risking the paycheck, benefits, 401k, etc for the chance at a few hundred or thousand dollars. Security measures are too tight. 99.99% of the time that you gamble, the odds are exactly as they should be. You will most likeley lose without any need for cheating.



I don't know that I made a silly comment about casinos cheating. I do think your poor spelling, punctuation and grammar is silly.

Your comment that casinos don't have to cheat to win is silly. The house edge doesn't equate to profit. The 1.41% HA on an empty craps table with 4 employees is not generating a profit.
TheNightfly
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:01:08 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

To give you a noncasino example, most new car dealers charge for "dealer prep" and "undercoating", amounting to hundreds of dollars, even though the "dealer prep" consists of spraying the interior with air freshener and the "undercoating" is nonexistent. This has been going on for decades. Those car dealers are still in business. 'Nuff said.




Once again mlk, you've shown your ignorance by making a claim you can't possibly back up and posting it with the mistaken belief that because it's been posted by you, not only is it true but that others will believe you.

Having sold cards for 4 years, I can tell you that dealer prep is more than simply spraying the interior with air freshener. The car must be thoroughly cleaned inside and out and it must pass a basic inspection (fluids and such). Undercoating that is nonexistent would immediately be noticed by any customer who simply crouches down to see clean, bare metal on the underside of their car. To suggest that "most new car dealers" charge for undercoating that has not been applied and for simply spraying the interior of a new car with air freshener is foolish, childish and unsubstantiated; very similar to many of your claims made in this thread.

I no longer sell cars so I couldn't care less if someone slags the industry... but at least make a somewhat intelligent and educated remark.

You are apparently a very angry person who likes to use a thesaurus and has found an outlet for your vitriol. I am making these observations and comments myself because it's a shame to see this website used by those who have nothing constructive or substantive to add to the conversation.
Happiness is underrated
SanchoPanza
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:16:13 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Although the original poster makes what I feel to be a silly comment in thatcasinos cheat and doesn't see any deterents to cheating, I'll provide a bit of information for those interested. Here is a link to the Nevada gaming board complaint agenda. http://gaming.nv.gov/complaints.htm



Thanks for the URL. If this first tasting of the material is typical, it could hold a trove of scenes like this one for a movie, a book, a TV series. Who could dream up this one? (Page 4)
Baccarat shenanigans
SanchoPanza
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:17:37 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

I've seen blackjack tables that have sensors in the betting area that "read" the amount bet from the identifiers in the chips, ostensibly to track each players average wager. I imagine they can do the same thing on the craps table.



That would be a sight to see.
Nareed
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:23:02 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

I've seen blackjack tables that have sensors in the betting area that "read" the amount bet from the identifiers in the chips, ostensibly to track each players average wager. I imagine they can do the same thing on the craps table.



Of course they have them at the craps table. I've seen them at every BJ table in Vegas, well, every open one. The device is called "the dealer's eyes," and they identify chip value by color. They can tell when a player raises or lowers a bet, too. Amazing stuff.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
cclub79
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:24:36 PM permalink
I try to be diplomatic, but even I realized that he got his info on undercoating from an old Seinfeld episode:

JERRY: Alright, alright. Alright, thatís enough! Letís get back to my deal. That undercoating, thatís just a rip-off, isnít it, David?

PUDDY: Oh, we donít even know what it is.

Undercoating is increasingly more important the more you drive on gravel or stone surfaces. It's also usually an option that if you absolutely don't want, you can get a model without it. Plus it's listed on the sticker. You are being told you are paying for it, and can not buy the car if you don't want to. That's not cheating. Cheating is they sell you the car and tell the loan company to bill you for $1000 more. Dealer prep is the house edge. Everyone can see it and knows it. It's not hidden. It might not be blantantly advertised what it really is, but neither is the 10%+ edge on Snake Eyes.
TheNightfly
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:26:48 PM permalink
And mlk's snappy rejoinder is...
Happiness is underrated
mkl654321
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:58:08 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

Once again mlk, you've shown your ignorance by making a claim you can't possibly back up and posting it with the mistaken belief that because it's been posted by you, not only is it true but that others will believe you.

Having sold cards for 4 years

You are apparently a very angry person who likes to use a thesaurus and has found an outlet for your vitriol. I am making these observations and comments myself because it's a shame to see this website used by those who have nothing constructive or substantive to add to the conversation.



Somehow, I think that you're biased, having engaged in the noble profession of auto dealership yourself. The undercoating scam is usually confined to areas that have severe cold weather. In the desert southwest, they try to charge you for window tinting. In any case, many new car dealers are crooks and thieves, a remark I will stand behind. From upselling pointless extended warranties to tacking on overpriced options, America's car dealers have made the process of buying a car thoroughly unpleasant. And by the way, I held a car dealer's license for TEN years (though it was not my primary business).

And I don't even own a thesaurus. I have an extensive vocabulary, and I use it, like any other tool. That evidently bothers you, perhaps because when reading my posts, you need frequent recourse to a dictionary.

Whether I am "very angry" or my comments bring "nothing constructive or substantive" are value judgments, which you are sadly ill-equipped to make.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:58:53 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

And mlk's snappy rejoinder is...



To whom?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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August 30th, 2010 at 6:59:43 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

I try to be diplomatic, but even I realized that he got his info on undercoating from an old Seinfeld episode:

.



Actually, I got it from living in Montana for three years.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Doc
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August 30th, 2010 at 7:10:14 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Quote: Headlock

I've seen blackjack tables that have sensors in the betting area that "read" the amount bet from the identifiers in the chips, ostensibly to track each players average wager. I imagine they can do the same thing on the craps table.

That would be a sight to see.

I remain skeptical that it would work at craps. I have several times been at a not-quite-full crap table where we, the players, seem to be straddling the conventional positions and the dealers have trouble figuring out just where to stack the place/come/prop bets. Sometimes they stack them just a smidge away from where they usually put them to try to adjust. At dealer rotation, there can be a bunch of confusion about whose bets are whose. Can you imagine the problems that would give in-table sensors?

I just don't think in-table sensors are going to work very effectively unless there are tubes or something at each possible chip position, with all chips being stacked in the exact correct position. Then the dealer still has to decide which tube to use for each player, or crack the whip at the players to get us to stand right where they want us. I think there are just too many potential problems.
SanchoPanza
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August 30th, 2010 at 7:17:33 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

I remain skeptical that it would work at craps. I have several times been at a not-quite-full crap table where we, the players, seem to be straddling the conventional positions and the dealers have trouble figuring out just where to stack the place/come/prop bets. Sometimes they stack them just a smidge away from where they usually put them to try to adjust. At dealer rotation, there can be a bunch of confusion about whose bets are whose. Can you imagine the problems that would give in-table sensors?

I just don't think in-table sensors are going to work very effectively unless there are tubes or something at each possible chip position, with all chips being stacked in the exact correct position. Then the dealer still has to decide which tube to use for each player, or crack the whip at the players to get us to stand right where they want us. I think there are just too many potential problems.



That would also probably mean the end of the two-finger rule.
Doc
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August 30th, 2010 at 7:22:14 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

That would also probably mean the end of the two-finger rule.

Enough of that dirty talk, you nasty boy! :-o
Headlock
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August 30th, 2010 at 7:37:59 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

I remain skeptical that it would work at craps. I have several times been at a not-quite-full crap table where we, the players, seem to be straddling the conventional positions and the dealers have trouble figuring out just where to stack the place/come/prop bets. Sometimes they stack them just a smidge away from where they usually put them to try to adjust. At dealer rotation, there can be a bunch of confusion about whose bets are whose. Can you imagine the problems that would give in-table sensors?

I just don't think in-table sensors are going to work very effectively unless there are tubes or something at each possible chip position, with all chips being stacked in the exact correct position. Then the dealer still has to decide which tube to use for each player, or crack the whip at the players to get us to stand right where they want us. I think there are just too many potential problems.



Doc, one of us misinterpreted. I think both SanchoPanza and Nareed were trying to say that in-table sensors do not exist.

Edit: If you would confirm that table sensors exist in blackjack tables, I would appreciate it.
Doc
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August 30th, 2010 at 7:48:46 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

Doc, one of us misinterpreted. I think both SanchoPanza and Nareed were trying to say that in-table sensors do not exist.

Edit: If you would confirm that table sensors exist in blackjack tables, I would appreciate it.

I cannot confirm that they are actively in use. I certainly have never been aware of it at a table where I have played. I think I can confirm that this concept has been actively discussed. It certainly seems plausible as an approach for automated tracking of a player's betting action on a blackjack table or certain other table games where chips are placed in a specific location and different players' chips are not placed close together. But not craps.
Wizard
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August 30th, 2010 at 7:54:13 PM permalink
Forgive me for interrupting. Regarding sensors in blackjack tables, I've seen that displayed at the Global Gaming Expo. It is called MindPlay. As far as I know, it is still rather buggy, and not in use for real money yet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. There may be other companies marketing similar products as well. Sorry if this has already been said.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
cclub79
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August 30th, 2010 at 8:02:41 PM permalink
Quote: mlk

In any case, many new car dealers are crooks and thieves.


Quote:

And as far as cheating not happening? Don't make me laugh.


Quote:

You are making a couple of undefended assertions: one, that the primary reason that NPOs want free advertising is so that their CEOs (or whatever they call themselves) can make as much money for themselves as possible; this assertion that the only thing such people care about is lining their own pockets seems a little harsh. Not EVERYONE running a large organization is a cackling, greedy bastard.




You could use almost every quote in this thread regarding casinos to undercut your own argument about why CEO's wouldn't line their own pockets.

BECAUSE
THEY
CAN

You have a varying assortment of industries that you are vicious towards...and apparently they are all ones that you've worked in. Just sayin'

This is quickly becoming tuttigym 2: "This time, it's not just about the Craps Hoax!" So I think I'll just let it be, and hope that the features including personal messaging and user blockage will be in place in the near future.
mkl654321
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August 30th, 2010 at 8:25:44 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

You could use almost every quote in this thread regarding casinos to undercut your own argument about why CEO's wouldn't line their own pockets.

BECAUSE
THEY
CAN

You have a varying assortment of industries that you are vicious towards...and apparently they are all ones that you've worked in. Just sayin'

This is quickly becoming tuttigym 2: "This time, it's not just about the Craps Hoax!" So I think I'll just let it be, and hope that the features including personal messaging and user blockage will be in place in the near future.



Are you one of those people who thinks that a CEO actually has a personal stake in the company he works for, like someone running a lemonade stand? The parallel is NOT apt. And by the way, the third quote was in reference to the directors of nonprofit organizations---I'll leave you to fathom the distinction.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Nareed
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August 30th, 2010 at 8:27:37 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

Doc, one of us misinterpreted. I think both SanchoPanza and Nareed were trying to say that in-table sensors do not exist.



You can make chips with an RFID chip on each, which would identify chips by value and type (regular, non-negotiable, etc). You can certainly put in RFID readers under the table. You could conceivably do it on a craps table, too.

But RFID chips and readers cost money, and integrating them into the system costs money, too. I can't see a casino using them to track card counters, because there are many other ways to spot counters already. It would be easier for the dealer to keep track of the count, especially as he could use any aids he needed, and whether any players raise their bet when the count is high.

BTW spotting counters isn't cheating.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
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