Sic Bo and Game Extinction

Hello everyone!

Recently I went to the Resorts World Casino in NYC, where until yesterday they only had digital terminals where you could play games such as blackjack, baccarat, craps, roulette, and... sic bo.

Sic Bo seems to be the odd one out, I have never seen this at a casino. Everyone I've asked and everywhere I've looked seems to indicate that many casinos had this game 5-10 years ago, but the closest I've ever seen to it being played was a closed table at Live! Casino in Maryland. Does anyone have evidence of whether this table game is still played in the United States (not as an ETG)? What about in other Western countries?

While at Resorts World NYC, I was surprised by the lack of diversity of games (hopefully this improves soon), and I recently saw heard about some isolated cases of rare games being removed from casinos around the USA.

It begs the question: are table games going extinct faster than their being developed? Or are we approximately at equilibrium right now? Has the Golden Age of table games ended, or are we living in it right now?

Please let me know your thoughts; I have only been in the casino industry for less than a year so I really lack the decades-long perspective that most of you have.

I think that if any casino in Vegas has it, it would be New York New York. However, it's not on the list of table games at its website.

I assume it's targeted at the Asian crowd, especially as Sic Bo isn't its original name; it's Grand Hazard (sort of a 3-dice version of Hazard, which became the modern Craps), and I assume made its way from England to, say, Hong Kong.

Very interesting questions...

Because I've played Sic Bo before, I was interested in the main question so I Googled "Sic Bo" and came up with this: https://www.ancientgames.org/history-of-sic-bo/

I vaguely remember seeing Sic Bo in a casino a LONG time ago. If I were to try to figure out how long ago or where that was, I'd probably be freaked out by how old I am. I believe it might have been an electronic game, but can't be sure. I think it may have been similar to the electronic Craps games that are currently prevalent in casinos. Sometimes, it's called Chuck-a-luck.

My experience with gambling games of Chinese origin is that they are less predatory than modern casino games. I don't have any evidence, but I always get the impression that the Chinese games are focused on a slow House win. As if they want to drain you slowly.

I enjoy your posts a lot, but it's not clear to me which games you actually play in casinos.

Are you an active gambler or do you simply observe/query others in order to evolve your casino site?

From what I can find, Sic Bo is much more ancient than Hazard. I bet it's possible they were developed separately because they're very conceptually simple...

I think you're correct. From a simple Google search using Gemini:

Sic Bo is significantly older than Hazard.

While both are classic dice games, their historical timelines differ by over a millennium:

Sic Bo: Traces its roots back over 2,000 years to ancient China, likely originating during or even before the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD). In its earliest forms, it was played with painted stones, carved bones, or tiles before modern cubic dice were introduced.

Hazard: Dates back to the Middle Ages, with the earliest reliable references appearing in the 12th or 13th century. It is famously mentioned in Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales from the 14th century. Hazard eventually evolved into the modern game of craps.

Regardless, both are older than dirt (and me)

Quote: BigSlick

I enjoy your posts a lot, but it's not clear to me which games you actually play in casinos.

Are you an active gambler or do you simply observe/query others in order to evolve your casino site?
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Thank you :)
When I am in casinos, usually I first try to play any new games that I have never seen before, especially if I know the inventor.
After that, my preference is to play blackjack or some blackjack variant like Spanish 21 or Down Under Blackjack.
My "guilty" pleasure game is Roulette, which I find entertaining but I don't like the lack of strategy or high house edge.
Recently I've been learning how to play Pai Gow Tiles and I am confident enough to play it in real life - but only if I find a sufficiently low table minimum (I saw $100 minimums yesterday).
Definitely trying to see some more Craps and to try Crapless in real life, partly coz it's a game I want to understand better for the sake of my website.

"Tiles" is a great game. You just can't mix it with Poker <wink>

Still some $25 tiles tables out west: Cache Creek in California, and Peppermill in Reno!

— —

If you don’t mind extremely old information …

I saw sic bo in Macau casinos (or at least one) in 2018.

And it was at the casino in Burnaby, BC (hometown of Michael Bublé!) back in 2002!

I bet it still exists in Macau and it is still very popular in Thailand (called Hi Lo)

It's not quite as interesting as Craps though in that all bets are resolved after a single roll, so I am not that surprised that it couldn't compete with Craps. This also made it so that it's really hard to innovate with side bets for Sic Bo.

I think it would be cool to have a 3-dice variant of Craps in the casino, something like Cee-Lo :)

I recall seeing Sic Bo at Mohegan Sun the last time I was there but that was about four years ago. I had seen it other places that are located near urban areas with large Asian populations so it didn’t strike me as odd or unusual. It seemed pretty popular whenever I walked through that part of the casino and they still have it listed on their website.

Thanks for your answer!
I have never been to a casino in Connecticut, hopefully I can go with a friend in the near future.

Something I've anecdotally noticed is that tribal casinos tend to have a wider variety of table games on average than non-tribal casinos. Is this just a coincidence or are companies less willing to take risks on new games than tribes?

Quote: harris

Thanks for your answer!
I have never been to a casino in Connecticut, hopefully I can go with a friend in the near future.

Something I've anecdotally noticed is that tribal casinos tend to have a wider variety of table games on average than non-tribal casinos. Is this just a coincidence or are companies less willing to take risks on new games than tribes?
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I highly recommend it as part of your gaming education. Between the two casinos, just about every game that is dealt at a casino is at one or the other of them.

It might be because tribal casinos are smaller corporations than the ones that run most casinos and they can make the decision and sign the contract quicker.

Quote: harris

Sic Bo seems to be the odd one out, I have never seen this at a casino. ..... Does anyone have evidence of whether this table game is still played in the United States (not as an ETG)?
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Players would line up three-deep to play Sic Bo at Mohegan Sun in CT. I haven't been there in years, but their website claims they offer Sic Bo among their table games.

Add Casino Niagara and Fallsview. Just over the border in Canada. CN has an ‘Asian Games Pit’ which has around 2 sic Bo tables, 5 tiles tables, 5 Pai Gow poker tables, and 5 baccarat tables. Numbers are guesstimates.

14 or so years ago went there with new date who I had taught tiles. When us two Anglos sat at a soon to be opened tiles table we were politely told we were at the wrong table! They seemed stunned we knew how to play tiles.

Interesting story about advantage play at Sic Bo, from link

Another involved a sic bo game at the Grand Casino in Biloxi, Miss. Stanford Wong’s Current Blackjack News alerted readers to the opportunity at the time, and the story has since been retold in the American Casino Guide.

In 1994, the Grand offered payoffs of 80-1 on three-dice totals of 4 or 17. True odds are 71-1, and Atlantic City payoffs of 60-1 yield a house edge of 15.3 percent.

With an 80-1 payoff, that flips to a PLAYER edge of 12.5 percent.

That is an enormous edge for players. Blackjack card counters work hard for an edge of 1.5 percent or so, more or less depending on house rules on the game in addition to count accuracy. Video poker experts who can find the rare full-pay Deuces Wild are thrilled to get an edge of eight-tenths of a percent.

Wong calculated the average profit for a player making flat $100 bets at $1,500 per hour. Ten players who read Wong’s newsletter had one big winning day before the casino closed the game.

Dog Hand

I wonder why the casino did that?

Did they not understand basic math when making that payout?

I’m also a little surprised it wasn’t noticed sooner. You can calculate the odds of Sic Bo with simple arithmetic.

Quote: harris

I wonder why the casino did that?

Did they not understand basic math when making that payout?

I’m also a little surprised it wasn’t noticed sooner. You can calculate the odds of Sic Bo with simple arithmetic.
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I list daily bets I can make at much bigger advantages than that on my sportsbook bets. I assume they let me do so in the hope I’ll make more bets that the house has the edge on.

I’m guessing that casino had the same thoughts. Just grossly miscalculated.

Doesn't GLI / the state government have to approve all paytables for table games?

Quote: harris

Doesn't GLI / the state government have to approve all paytables for table games?
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Not to my knowledge.

Some states (Washington, maybe California) require approval, but I believe many do not.
I also thought they tried hard not to force the use of GLI, because there are other companies that can provide equivalent services.

For some reason, I thought a clear procedure for conducting the game (the supervisor has a binder) combined with a paytable printed on the felt was usually enough.

I don't know of any states that don't require approval for games, with the exception of states without casinos. Does anyone who has invented a game have insight?

Yeah GLI doesn't have a monopoly, but right now has lop-sided duopoly with BMM, and I know there are some states that basically only accept GLI.