General Sports Talk

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April 16th, 2021 at 4:10:18 AM permalink

..........................

the Phoenix Suns design of their court is the worst I've ever seen
the bright white color outside the lane looks like it's so bright it could distract the shooter's concentration on the rim
seems like sensationalism - like the ABA's red, white and blue ball......................it's terrible IMO

.................................(~:\

ball got stuck in Tropicana roof....................catcher's attitude changes quite a bit

http://www.espn.com/video/clip/clip?id=31266386

Last edited by: lilredrooster on Apr 16, 2021

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mcallister3200

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April 26th, 2021 at 4:12:08 PM permalink

Tonight Shohei Ohtani will become the first player to be the starting pitcher while leading the league in home runs since Babe Ruth 100 years ago.

Gialmere

Gialmere

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April 27th, 2021 at 8:50:06 PM permalink

Here's an interesting stat making the rounds...

Evidently the floor is now lava in the midrange area.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

billryan

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April 28th, 2021 at 7:56:33 AM permalink

The mid-range jumper is dead. Even in youth leagues, it is highly discouraged. They simply aren't worth taking. Making fifty percent of your 3 point shots is worth as much as making seventy-five percent of your other shots.

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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April 28th, 2021 at 8:03:51 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
The mid-range jumper is dead. Even in youth leagues, it is highly discouraged. They simply aren't worth taking. Making fifty percent of your 3 point shots is worth as much as making seventy-five percent of your other shots.

It is the rarest player that makes 50% from 3 point land. Even rarer for a player to make 75% from inside the arc. But the concept is correct. More realistic numbers are 40% and 55%. Both great percentages. But the 3 wins out of course. And the missed 3 tends to have longer rebounds which favor the offense as well.

The two players who still take mid range jumpers at an advantage to their team are Kawhi Leonard and Demar Derozan.

gordonm888
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April 28th, 2021 at 6:03:37 PM permalink

Depending upon the skill set of the shooter and the type of (zone) defense being used, a short jumper can make sense.

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

FTB

FTB

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April 28th, 2021 at 6:23:54 PM permalink

I miss the way the game used to be played (think back to Jordan�s era).

Today, there is an overreliance on the three. Sometimes, it�s just not fun watching a game when both teams aren�t hitting their threes and just trading missed shots over and over. And what happened to defense?

With the way players are in love with the long jumpers and threes nowadays, don�t be surprised when a four pointer is eventually incorporated into the NBA.

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DRich

DRich

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April 28th, 2021 at 6:23:56 PM permalink

Quote: gordonm888
Depending upon the skill set of the shooter and the type of (zone) defense being used, a short jumper can make sense.

Yes, if you are wide open a short jumper makes sense, but not of contested.

At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.

mcallister3200

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April 28th, 2021 at 6:31:22 PM permalink

It�s more of a shot clock thing mostly mid range shots are for guys that are capable of creating their own shot later in the shot clock. Shot selection vs shot clock sort of like looking for a parking spot you might not take a spot a couple blocks away immediately but as things are parked up as you approach your destination it looks more appealing.

FTB

FTB

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April 30th, 2021 at 6:37:54 AM permalink

Quote: FTB
What is the purpose of having commissions that sanction these bouts? The trainers are in the corners of the fighters to protect the fighters from themselves. But the commissions are there to protect the fighters too (and of course, to help avoid a tragedy in the ring and the lawsuit it would bring in the process).

Agreed, it is sad to see sometimes, especially watching one of your favorite fighters chasing that money or adrenaline rush again but getting embarrassed in the ring along the way. I realize I am being hypocritical because I still watch these car crashes as they unfold.

Brutal sport. Even more brutal politics behind the scenes as well.

Call me a hypocrite but excited to hear news of Tyson-Lewis II (exhibition, of course) being planned for September 2021!

I�d watch it.

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lilredrooster

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April 30th, 2021 at 9:58:56 AM permalink

Quote: DRich
Yes, if you are wide open a short jumper makes sense, but not of contested.

..........................

I don't believe the players are as physically tough as they were back in the day
I loved to watch Chamberlain vs. Russell - that was really rough stuff
Chamberlain would often get hammered by 3 players and still get the dunk

Dave Debuschere banging up against Gus Johnson
watching Jerry West get all kind of beat up playing with a broken nose and still get off his jumpers and get 35 points

watching Oscar get hounded by K.C. Jones

I miss that type of game

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lilredrooster

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May 1st, 2021 at 2:22:27 AM permalink

.....................

Aaron Rodgers wants to be traded but the Packers won't trade him - it's all pretty surprising - when you think of the Packers you think of Rodgers

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/04/29/aaron-rodgers-unhappy-green-bay-packers/

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SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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May 1st, 2021 at 5:42:30 AM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster
.....................

Aaron Rodgers wants to be traded but the Packers won't trade him - it's all pretty surprising - when you think of the Packers you think of Rodgers

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/04/29/aaron-rodgers-unhappy-green-bay-packers/

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He�s a big baby. Like most of them are..... he had his best year, they were an offensive juggernaut, they just missed out on the Super Bowl, but he is still pissed that they drafted his (possible) eventual replacement. Did Tom Brady have a hissy fit when Garoppolo was drafted?

Some have posited that Rodgers has no guaranteed money left on his contract and will �only� be making $25 million this year. Thus he just wants a raise. Sign your contract and honor it. Or retire.

unJon

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May 1st, 2021 at 7:09:31 AM permalink

Quote: SOOPOO
He�s a big baby. Like most of them are..... he had his best year, they were an offensive juggernaut, they just missed out on the Super Bowl, but he is still pissed that they drafted his (possible) eventual replacement. Did Tom Brady have a hissy fit when Garoppolo was drafted?

Some have posited that Rodgers has no guaranteed money left on his contract and will �only� be making $25 million this year. Thus he just wants a raise. Sign your contract and honor it. Or retire.

Tom Brady had a huge hissy fit and forced Jimmy G out of town.

The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.

billryan

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May 1st, 2021 at 10:01:36 AM permalink

Quote: unJon
Tom Brady had a huge hissy fit and forced Jimmy G out of town.

Why let facts get in the way of a good rant?

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

DRich

DRich

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May 1st, 2021 at 12:22:22 PM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster
.....................

Aaron Rodgers wants to be traded but the Packers won't trade him - it's all pretty surprising - when you think of the Packers you think of Rodgers

I think of Lombardi, Bart Star, Forrest Greg, Mike Holmgren, and Farve.

At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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May 1st, 2021 at 1:33:00 PM permalink

Quote: unJon
Tom Brady had a huge hissy fit and forced Jimmy G out of town.

As best I can remember he did not request a trade. And did not threaten not to play for the Patriots. If any of those facts are wrong, Billy, feel free to correct me. It�s what you try to do....

Edit.... I also don�t think he was forced out of town. The Patriots just weren�t going to pay a backup QB what his fair market value was.

Last edited by: SOOPOO on May 1, 2021

lilredrooster

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May 7th, 2021 at 3:15:04 AM permalink

................................

old school NHL this past Wednesday - Rangers/ Capitals - mixing it up from the get go

I got upset - I was watching a good fight and a hockey game broke out..........................................(~:\

the whole thing happened because Tom Wilson went over the top punching on Monday night:

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Gialmere

Gialmere

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May 11th, 2021 at 10:06:11 PM permalink

The Las Vegas Athletics?

Rumors are flying that the Oakland A's are giving up hope of getting a new stadium and are ready to relocate. Several cities are possible but Vegas seems the most likely destination. Of course, this could just be a bargaining tactic.

Full story at ESPN

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

lilredrooster

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May 13th, 2021 at 4:54:39 AM permalink

..............

a basketball story about one of my homies from back in the day
please forgive if you're not interested because it's not current

Brian Magid from Blair H.S. in Silver Spring MD could shoot the lights out - your mouth would drop open watching him shoot
he got a full scholarship to Maryland (wanted to be near his homies) but King Jerk Lefty Driesell didn't give him any playing time

he transferred to George Washington in DC - not on the level of Maryland but a pretty tough conference and got more P.T. and averaged 16 p.p.g. one year

there her shot over .500 from the field 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐨𝐯𝐞𝐫 .𝟗𝟎𝟎 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐞

even Steph Curry, Jerry West and Oscar Robertson didn't shoot over .900 from the line in college
neither did Jerry Lucas or Rick Barry
and neither did Steve Nash, Mark Price or Bill Sharman

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/brian-magid-1.html

*

Last edited by: lilredrooster on May 13, 2021

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lilredrooster

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May 14th, 2021 at 1:52:27 PM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster
..............

a basketball story about one of my homies from back in the day

Brian Magid from Blair H.S. in Silver Spring MD could shoot the lights out - your mouth would drop open watching him shoot

𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐨𝐯𝐞𝐫 .𝟗𝟎𝟎 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐞

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/brian-magid-1.html

when Bill Bradley graduated from Princeton a book was written about him called "A Sense of Where You Are"
it was a pretty interesting book
it was mostly about what a great shooter he was - and talked about his technique and how he practiced

𝙗𝙪𝙩 𝘽𝙧𝙖𝙙𝙡𝙚𝙮 𝙘𝙤𝙪𝙡𝙙𝙣'𝙩 𝙢𝙖𝙩𝙘𝙝 𝙢𝙮 𝙝𝙤𝙢𝙚𝙮 𝘽𝙧𝙞𝙖𝙣 𝙈𝙖𝙜𝙞𝙙 𝙛𝙧𝙤𝙢 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙣𝙚 𝙤𝙧 𝙛𝙧𝙤𝙢 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙡𝙙

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/bill-bradley-1.html

..................................(~:\

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billryan

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May 14th, 2021 at 2:07:05 PM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster
when Bill Bradley graduated from Princeton a book was written about him called "A Sense of Where You Are"
it was a pretty interesting book
it was mostly about what a great shooter he was - and talked about his technique and how he practiced

𝙗𝙪𝙩 𝘽𝙧𝙖𝙙𝙡𝙚𝙮 𝙘𝙤𝙪𝙡𝙙𝙣'𝙩 𝙢𝙖𝙩𝙘𝙝 𝙢𝙮 𝙝𝙤𝙢𝙚𝙮 𝘽𝙧𝙞𝙖𝙣 𝙈𝙖𝙜𝙞𝙙 𝙛𝙧𝙤𝙢 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙣𝙚 𝙤𝙧 𝙛𝙧𝙤𝙢 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙡𝙙

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/bill-bradley-1.html

..................................(~:\

Bill Bradley was a great Knick, and vital to their winning two NBA championships, but I never understood his Hall of Fame election.
He averaged well below 15 points a game, wasn't a great rebounder, and made exactly one All-Star team in his ten year career.

*

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lilredrooster

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May 14th, 2021 at 2:15:36 PM permalink

Quote: billryan
Bill Bradley was a great Knick, and vital to their winning two NBA championships, but I never understood his Hall of Fame election.
He averaged well below 15 points a game, wasn't a great rebounder, and made exactly one All-Star team in his ten year career.

I have to believe that was due to his complexion

while in high school Tom McMillen was put on the cover of Sports Illustrated which claimed he was the best high school basketball player in America

that was about as accurate a statement as if somebody claimed Bill Bradley in his prime could outjump Michael Jordan

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ThatDonGuy

ThatDonGuy

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May 14th, 2021 at 2:16:33 PM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
The Las Vegas Athletics?

Rumors are flying that the Oakland A's are giving up hope of getting a new stadium and are ready to relocate. Several cities are possible but Vegas seems the most likely destination. Of course, this could just be a bargaining tactic.

Full story at ESPN

They have been talking about moving, or replacing the Coliseum, for decades. The place is a pit. Up until now, the main stumbling block has been, they wanted to move to San Jose, but for some reason, the Giants are able to block those plans.

If the A's do move, that will mean Oakland will have gone from having all four major pro sports at once (A's, Raiders, Warriors, Golden Seals) in 1976 to having none. Has any other city managed to do this?

mcallister3200

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May 14th, 2021 at 2:17:36 PM permalink

That�s going to be Andre Iguodala if he makes it, and Draymond Green as well. Rajon Rondo. Probably why McHale made it. Extra credit for team accomplishments. Did Bradley also have a prolific college career? If so probably combination of extra credit for team success and college for the overall picture.

Basketball hall of fame seems a little different than the other sports hall of fames in that there is more consideration given to college and international accomplishments including Olympics. particularly there�s several players like Dino Radja, Divac , Sabonis, and Drazen Petrovic RIP who are in largely based on European accomplishments in the era before the very best Europeans automatically came over earlier. Strictly college coaches like Bo Ryan have made it. When I visited the basketball hall of fame I got the impression the standards are slightly lower than some other sports. 5 all star games or multiple all stars+multiple championships almost a lock.

Last edited by: mcallister3200 on May 14, 2021

billryan

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May 14th, 2021 at 2:43:35 PM permalink

Bradley originally was going to go to Duke on a full scholarship but changed his mind and was a walk-on in Princeton.
He was considered the top player in the country his senior year of HS.
In college he took Princeton to third place in the NCAA Tournament and won an Olympic Gold Medal in 1964.He was the #1 college player his Senior year.
Back then, NBA teams claimed the rights to any student within 50 miles of their city so the Knicks submitted a claim for him. The Philadelphia Warriors objected, putting in a claim of their own. After a contentious investigation, it was decided that the gym in Princeton was closer to NYC than to Philly and Bradley was awarded to the Knicks. Philly may have let it go as it was thought Bradley would miss at least two full seasons where he studied in Oxford and then had a military obligation. Instead, he missed one full season and joined the Knicks just after the start of the second season. In his rookie year, the Knicks tried him as a guard but the experiment was a total failure. Switching to small forward, he really came into his own after future Hall of Famers Dave DeBusschere and Willis Reed joined him in the frontcourt.
I have to say, Willis Reed is another great Knick whose HOF credentials are questionable.

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

mcallister3200

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May 14th, 2021 at 2:49:23 PM permalink

Bradley�s good medal certainly helped his case then.

I somewhat take back my statement about basketball HOF requirements being lower. Baseball has a weird habit of rewarding above average accumulators who were never great but played forever to hit arbitrary counting stat milestones, doesn�t reward guys who had much better peaks but didn�t play the 12-15 years needed for the accumulation milestones.

gordonm888
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May 14th, 2021 at 3:15:11 PM permalink

Phil Bradley was a Rhodes Scholar (You couldn't hear two sentences about Bill without hearing that.) He was bright (attended Princeton and he won a Rhode Scholarship, did you know that?) and must have been viewed by the media as a man with a future after his playing career was over. I think when sports media interview the athletes and encounter someone who sounds way smarter than them, they tend to celebrate the athlete.

But on the championship Knicks Teams, there was Willis Reed and Walt Frazier, plus Dave DeBusschere and then Earl the Pearl Monroe joined the team after Dick Stockton retired. Those were the four stars: Reed, Frazier, Monroe and DeBusschere. I remember Bradley as competent, maybe the slightest smidge better than Dick Stockton.

And Cazzie Russell off the bench, replacing either Bradley or DeBusschere, would often light up the fans with a scoring burst and a sense of excitement.

Yet the broadcasters talked of Bradley with reverence, I was puzzled about that then and puzzled about his HoF election - especially because the NBA HoF generally makes more suitable choices then the MLB HoF. So, yes, I agree with billryan.

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

gordonm888
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May 14th, 2021 at 3:23:06 PM permalink

Quote: mcallister3200
Bradley�s good medal certainly helped his case then.

I somewhat take back my statement about basketball HOF requirements being lower. Baseball has a weird habit of rewarding above average accumulators who were never great but played forever to hit arbitrary counting stat milestones, doesn�t reward guys who had much better peaks but didn�t play the 12-15 years needed for the accumulation milestones.

Fred Lindstrom had like 7 full time seasons in a 12 year career during a period when batting averages were inflated and was elected to the MLB HoF for no apparent reason by the Veteran's Committee.

Baseball's HOF Veteran's Committee simply made a shambles of Cooperstown. Bobby Doerr elected because he was a teammate and buddy of Ted Williams -Doerr was probably surprised as everyone else to hear he was elected to the Hall because he never was regarded that highly when he played. Dick Bartell and Dave Bancroft and Bobby Wallace were elected into the Hall, and on and on. Nobody goes to Cooperstown to see the displays on those guys.

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

billryan

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May 14th, 2021 at 3:42:18 PM permalink

Those Knick teams were simply loaded. From that 1970s team, Willis Reed, Dave Debusschere, Bill Bradley, Jerry Lucas, Walt Fraizer, Earl Monroe and Phil Jackson, as well as coach Red Holtzman made the Hall of Fame. They also had Dick Barnett, a defensive whiz who gave up his starting role to let the Knicks bring in Earl Monroe.
They also had Hawthorne Wingo, a 6-6 Power forward with an arm span of an eight-footer. One of the few players in the NBA who hadn't attended college, Wingo was usually the last guy into the game but may have been the most popular Knick.

Last edited by: billryan on May 14, 2021

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

lilredrooster

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May 14th, 2021 at 3:57:11 PM permalink

Quote: gordonm888

a shambles of Cooperstown.

23 people didn't vote for Willie Mays on the first ballot for the HOF

9 didn't vote for Hank Aaron

so pathetic

https://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/ken-griffey-hall-of-fame/

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lilredrooster

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May 15th, 2021 at 4:43:39 AM permalink

.............................

𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐁𝐈𝐆 𝐋𝐈𝐄............................Tom McMillen

in 1970 Tom McMillen was put on the cover of "Sports Illustrated" and the cover proclaimed the he was the best high school player in America

McMillen dominated in h.s. in a rural area where the ball couldn't have been anywhere near to the level of basketball in big city locales

he was a tall guy who could shoot - he was a great player if you analyze him for college - an All American at Maryland -

in the NBA he averaged 8 points and 4 rebounds per game

he wasn't quick - he wasn't fast - he wasn't strong - and he couldn't jump

in reality he wasn't anywhere remotely close to being the best high school player of 1970

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billryan

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May 15th, 2021 at 6:10:03 AM permalink

Tom McMillen was the subject of an incredibly heated recruiting war, was an All-American in college, played on our Olympic team that got screwed out of the Gold Medal, and was a first-round draft pick from two leagues. He wasn't a great NBA player, but he also suffered from playing on the same team as Bob MacAdoo. To look back fifty years later and decide he wasn't a great high school ballplayer is silly. The guy averaged almost 50 points a game in high school.

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

lilredrooster

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May 15th, 2021 at 6:55:17 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
To look back fifty years later and decide he wasn't a great high school ballplayer is silly. The guy averaged almost 50 points a game in high school.

I didn't say he wasn't a great h.s. player - why did you say that I said that?
I also specifically said he was a great college player

I've seen real close up the high school players from those hic towns in PA

and let me tell you something buddy - they can't play worth jack - usually one on the team is halfway decent - and the other 4 suck big time

I specifically said this - which is undeniable if you know basketball -

𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐢𝐬 𝐧𝐨 𝐰𝐚𝐲 𝐡𝐞 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐫𝐞𝐦𝐨𝐭𝐞𝐥𝐲 𝐜𝐥𝐨𝐬𝐞 𝐭𝐨 𝐛𝐞𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐛𝐞𝐬𝐭 𝐡.𝐬. 𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐲𝐞𝐫 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐭𝐫𝐲

I saw the guy play in person several times

and there is no denying that he was slow - not strong - and couldn't jump

these are the players on the 1974 All American team - McMillen's last year at Maryland - and most or all were in h.s. the same time as him

Marvin Barnes

John Shumate

David Thompson

Bill Walton

Keith Wilkes

Len Elmore

Larry Fogle

Bobby Jones

Billy Knight

Campy Russell

all of those players and more were better than him in college and were all but surely better than him in high school

and there were surely many other players who didn't go to college for the common reasons who were better than him

*

Last edited by: lilredrooster on May 15, 2021

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billryan

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May 15th, 2021 at 9:20:42 AM permalink

Of the men on the list, McMillan actually played Len Elmore's team in High School. Elmore's team was considered to be one of the top five teams in the country while most people thought McMillan's team was not in the same league. McMillan dominated Elmore, but Power won the game. McMillan and Elmore ended up as teammates in Maryland where both had outstanding careers.
What are you basing your assumptions on? That his team was a bunch of poor white kids? That his competition was soft? That other high school kids ended up having better NBA careers? Dean Smith wanted him for North Carolina, just about every school in the East recruited him.
Tom McMillan was voted Mr. Basketball for 1970, as the best High school basketball player in the nation, beating out Bill Walton among others. It wasn't just some magazine calling him that.

Last edited by: billryan on May 15, 2021

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

lilredrooster

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May 15th, 2021 at 9:44:11 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
Of the men on the list, McMillan actually played Len Elmore's team in High School. Elmo's team was considered to be one of the top five teams in the country while most people thought McMillans team was not in the same league. McMillan dominated Elmore, but Power won the game. McMillan and Elmore ended up as teammates in Maryland where both had outstanding careers.
What are you basing your assumptions on? That his team was a bunch of poor white kids? That his competition was soft? That other high school kids ended up having better NBA careers? Dean Smith wanted him for North Carolina, just about every school in the East recruited him.

once again you just refuse to hear what I'm saying

and you did not answer the question of why you wrote that I wrote that he wasn't a great high school player when I didn't write that

so, I'll ask you again why did you write that?

for the last time - I did not say he wasn't a great high school player - and I specifically said he was a great college player

I don't care how many colleges recruited him

he was not anywhere near being the best high school player in the country which is what Sports Illustrated falsely claimed

you can get the last word................I'm done.................

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billryan

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May 15th, 2021 at 9:47:26 AM permalink

I'd say the people who voted for him as Mr. Basketball, as the best high school player in the country would have the last word.
I imagine they knew a thing or two.

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Mission146

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May 15th, 2021 at 9:52:36 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
Tom McMillen was the subject of an incredibly heated recruiting war, was an All-American in college, played on our Olympic team that got screwed out of the Gold Medal, and was a first-round draft pick from two leagues. He wasn't a great NBA player, but he also suffered from playing on the same team as Bob MacAdoo. To look back fifty years later and decide he wasn't a great high school ballplayer is silly. The guy averaged almost 50 points a game in high school.

I don't know much about basketball, but it seems to me a headline that reads The Best High School Player in America is going to push more units than a headline that says, A Much Better than Average High School Player.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

lilredrooster

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May 16th, 2021 at 1:49:46 AM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster

he was not anywhere near being the best high school player in the country which is what Sports Illustrated falsely claimed
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I said I wasn't going to post anymore about this but I've changed my mind - one last post

in 1970 my h.s. team - close to DC - played against St. Anthony's from DC coached by John Thompson
we were a very good team but they crushed us

St. Anthony's that year held the no.1 ranking in the DC area ahead of Dematha

Sport Magazine later named them the #1 h.s. team in the country

they had 6'8" Donald Washington who got a full scholarship to UNC but broke his foot and had bad grades and had to leave the university

even though his injury was severe he later played in the ABA

Donald was nowhere near as good a shooter as McMillen
but he could get up in the air at least a foot higher
he was much quicker than McMillen
he was much stronger than McMillen
just his presence on the court was so imposing for a h.s. player that he scared other teams

if he played one on one against McMillen he would have eaten McMillen up - immobilized him
McMillen would score some but Donald would block some of his shots
there's no way McMillen could have stopped Donald once he got inside - a lost cause - Donald would just jump way over him

end of story

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billryan

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May 16th, 2021 at 6:32:43 AM permalink

Len Elmore's Wikipedia page says his Power Memorial team won the NYC Championship and was rated the #1 team in the country in 1970.
You say another team was ranked #1 by a magazine. Obviously, if the two teams didn't play each other there is no way to know for sure.
The last time I looked, BBall was a team game. I have no idea why you think someone's one on one skills are relevant. I'd imagine if McMillen had played Julius Erving one on one, the future Dr. J would have won, but so what.
The facts are that Tom McMillen was named Mr. Basketball, the award given to the person selected as the top high school player in the country. He was on the cover of a magazine that named him the best player in the country. I imagine SI mentions some other players as well but they selected him as the best and featured him on the cover.
I have no idea if McMillen was really the best player in the country that year. Some people certainly thought he was or he wouldn't have been named Mr. Basketball and been featured on the cover of that magazine.
You are entitled to your opinions but McMillen was named Mr. Basketball. Bill Walton was the runner-up and Dwight Jones came in third. Not having seen any of them play, I can only defer to the experts who did.
If I understand your argument, it is that he couldn't have been the best because other kids were faster than him, or ended up having better pro careers than he did. I'm not sure any of that really matters. Imagine how much better he'd have been if he'd been allowed to dunk.

Last edited by: billryan on May 16, 2021

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Mission146

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May 16th, 2021 at 6:59:51 AM permalink

I really don't understand this debate.

From the way it sounds, "The Experts," could at least defend their pick of him as the best basketball player in high school that year.

From the way it sounds, there are any number of other players who could be picked as, "The best," that year and that position could reasonably be defended.

It's Sports Illustrated, so they have to push magazines. You push magazines and generate buzz by saying, "This guy is the best," not, "These guys are all better than average." You generate conversations because now you have people saying, "Whoa, whoa, wait a minute...they must not know about..."

Someone else who might be on the opposite side of the country closer to La Mesa might say, "What a rip off! There's NO WAY that Bill Walton is not the best high school player in the country!"

The point is that the SI pick just has to be defensible. It's a declarative statement, "The best," but it's a declarative statement that is also meaningless.

What I mean by, "Meaningless," is that SI knows there is no way to demonstrate that their choice for best High School Basketball Player is, in fact, the best. There's no criteria that anyone can come up with (especially prior to their college and NBA careers) that can pragmatically prove or disprove SI's statement.

In short, SI is declaring someone to be the best, but they don't have to back it up because there's no way to prove it anyway. It just has to be defensible.

Again, I know almost nothing about basketball...but it's the same thing when you call anyone, "The best," anything.

It's fifty years later and BillRyan is still able to defend SI's pick, so I'd say it was a pretty good pick. A bad pick would be a pick that there was no way to defend at some point in the future, and the closer you are to the time of the indefensible pick when it becomes indefensible, the worse the pick was.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

lilredrooster

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May 16th, 2021 at 7:03:59 AM permalink

.................

okay, Bill - I really think this is my last post here this time

you said McMillen didn't score a lot in the NBA because McAdoo was on his team shooting a very lot

did McAdoo keep McMillen from getting a lot of rebounds too?

now, you misquoted me as I pointed out - so fair is fair - and I'm going to quote you - something you didn't actually say but implied

here we go:

quote................Bill Ryan

"𝙏𝙤𝙢 𝙈𝙘𝙈𝙞𝙡𝙡𝙚𝙣 𝙬𝙖𝙨 𝙗𝙚𝙩𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙣 𝙗𝙤𝙩𝙝 𝘽𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙒𝙖𝙡𝙩𝙤𝙣 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝘿𝙖𝙫𝙞𝙙 𝙏𝙝𝙤𝙢𝙥𝙨𝙤𝙣"

you fail to appreciate how weak the competition McMillen faced in h.s. was

you're talking about 80% of those teams having a Center who was no taller than 6'3" or 6'4"

he was a 6'11" guy shooting 80% of the time over players who were no taller than 6'4"

you're not going to tell me that teams or many players from in and around Mansfield, PA could come into the DC area and be competitive

sorry.......................that dog won't hunt

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billryan

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May 16th, 2021 at 8:59:29 AM permalink

McMillen's team played Power Memorial, the team that Wikipedia says was the best in the country and lost by five points, if I recall correctly. McMillen dominated the inside against future teammate and NBA-bound Len Elmore.
If his team could do that to an NYC powerhouse, there is no reason to think they couldn't hang with any team anywhere.
As to your other point, Bob McAdoo did indeed keep McMillen from both scoring and rebounding. They played the same position so McMillen didn't get the minutes he might have on another team. Ironically, after being McAdoos backup in Buffalo for several years, they were both traded to the Knicks where they occasionally played on the floor together.
None of that matters as the discussion isn't about if McMillen was a good NBA player.
While he wasn't a great NBA player, or even a very good one, he did have career-highs of 31 points and 19 rebounds as a Knick and he scored 31 in a second game. Without looking up the stats, I'd guess most NBA players don't have multiple thirty-point games in their resume.
He could have padded his career stats and his wallet, a bit more by hanging around another few seasons but he left the NBA to pursue his real passion- politics, by running for and winning a seat in Congress. He was, and still is, the tallest member of Congress since anyone started keeping track of it.
How many pro sports teams can say they had a future United States Senator and a future Congressman playing on the same team.
I can only think of one- The NY Knicks.
One last bit of irony- Bill Walton was runner-up to McMillen as Mr. Basketball that season and went on to a Hall of Fame career, but McMillen actually played far more games in the NBA than Walton did.

I'm under the impression that deliberately misquoting someone is a suspension worthy action. You may want to edit your post.

Last edited by: billryan on May 16, 2021

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lilredrooster

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May 16th, 2021 at 9:29:31 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
Imagine how much better he'd have been if he'd been allowed to dunk.

McMillen's dunks wouldn't have made any highlight reel - he could barely get off his feet

there were a hell of a lot of players 6'3" and 6'4" who could go up way higher than him - more than 6" higher

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billryan

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May 16th, 2021 at 10:27:09 AM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster
McMillen's dunks wouldn't have made any highlight reel - he could barely get off his feet

there were a hell of a lot of players 6'3" and 6'4" who could go up way higher than him - more than 6" higher

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Really?

So when Lefty Driesell called him the complete package- a center who could run, pass, jump and shoot I suppose he wasn't being truthful.

I guess that's why Howard Garfinkel, the guru of high school hoops said McMillen was the best offensive center he ever saw in high school.
I did a little followup research.
In the game against Power Memorial, McMillen outscored Len Elmore 40-5 and outrebounded him 20-7. His team lost by five points.
That same year, Power went down to DC and beat Macklin by a dozen or so points. That 1970 Power Memorial team is widely considered the best team in school history. High praise for the school Lew Alcindor played for.
McMillens team won two Pennslyvania State Championships. He didn't just play against local farmers.

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lilredrooster

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May 16th, 2021 at 10:41:09 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
Really

yes, really..................I saw him play lots of times - and I don't need opinions from gurus to form my own opinions - Lefty was a blowhard whose words meant little

and you don't judge a team or a player by one game

that same year - the team I wrote about - St. Anthony's - ranked no. 1 in the nation by Sport Magazine - got beat by a nothing team - that game was a fluke

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gordonm888
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May 16th, 2021 at 1:08:38 PM permalink

Perhaps the fact that Tom McMillen was extremely productive when playing against opposing centers who were 6'4" or less is essentially what others meant when they said that he was the best H.S, BB player in that particular year. It doesn't mean they were claiming he was the best prospect for college BB or the NBA.

Look, there are many college football players who have won the Heisman Trophy who were mediocre or worse at the next level. Someone can be a great college hoops player but not project well into the NBA because they lack elite size or quickness- that does not mean they weren't a great college player.

I remember Tom McMillen slightly. He was tall and had some skills but was slow. Speed kills and most of the blood on the court was McMillen's in the NBA. In that regard, it is indeed interesting to be reminded how highly regarded he was in H.S.

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

lilredrooster