Getting backed off / 86'd / barred / restricted / etc for winning

Mr. blackhole, now banned kewlj gave an abundance of details on how much he would make using coupons, bonus days, VP, counting BJ, etc... I personally have seen Axel APing, and I can assure you his plays were +EV, and thus he could make a living doing just the plays I saw. Of course there must be a gazillion failed APs, but there are clearly a small cadre of successful ones. I know I could do it, but would never make what I can doing my day job, but it is clearly doable.

Quote: blackhole

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't asking how to file as a professional gambler. I was asking the AP's here if that's how they justify their income? If not: and I do understand most of AP'ing is a cash business; how do you get mortgages, car loans, or do anything else that requires some type of a back round about yourself? How do you justify your existence if it needs to be answered?

I file as professional gambler and it is my only source of income except for investment income.The investments came from Gambling winnings.I have gotten a mortgage based on this. I haven't needed a car loan for years, i just write a check.I have been audited twice and always passed. Being an ap is like anything else, to be successful at it you need to be extremely dedicated.The truly successful Aps usually live,sleep and breath Ap.

Quote: Hunterhill

I file as professional gambler and it is my only source of income except for investment income.The investments came from Gambling winnings.I have gotten a mortgage based on this. I haven't needed a car loan for years, i just write a check.I have been audited twice and always passed. Being an ap is like anything else, to be successful at it you need to be extremely dedicated.The truly successful Aps usually live,sleep and breath Ap.

That's a good point. Many people on here criticize AP's who live, sleep and breath it, yet if we were a film producer or musician some other passion professional we would be living sleeping and breathing that.

It's not an insult to me. Most people who don't live, sleep and breath what they do for a living is because they are unhappy with what they do. Don't project that onto me. Most AP's do this because they enjoy it.

Quote: blackhole

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't asking how to file as a professional gambler. I was asking the AP's here if that's how they justify their income? If not: and I do understand most of AP'ing is a cash business; how do you get mortgages, car loans, or do anything else that requires some type of a back round about yourself? How do you justify your existence if it needs to be answered?

I don't think running a cash business is the same as being unbanked. I can't speak for how full-time APs do it, but I run a solo business and just got a mortgage. I have no employer, no W-2s, it's just me. Three years of tax returns and two months of bank statements did the trick for my banker. They just want to see assets and income trends for the underwriting process.

If you're earning $50k/year in Vegas, whether that's as a full-time AP or any other cash-based business, you can easily afford a decent condo or small house. Vegas real estate is inexpensive unless you go nuts at the high end. You can still find properties around $125/sqft in nice neighborhoods, depressed neighborhoods can be less than $100.

I don't know how realistic it is to earn $50k/year as a full-time AP, but I don't think there are lots of people who are trying anyway. I've long maintained that someone with the chops to make $50k hustling casino games can earn more in a more typical employment situation, but I'm not going to criticize someone for choosing lifestyle freedom over money. Personally, I had a dalliance with card counting in college and learned very quickly that I didn't like the lifestyle. Plus I'm a creative type, I'm driven to make things (other than money). But I won't fault anyone for having different personal priorities.

I say we lock Mr. Blackhole and Mickey Crimm in a steel cage and see what happens ?

Proof of what????? I've posted many time - if you can't figure it out because you would like to be doing it then I understand but there is not need to prove anything - if I told you a found a machine that was job but the payable somehow existed in 25 dollar denom at 12-7 pay table no proof is needed - most promotions are public it's simple match to understand the profitability

Quote: darkoz

That's a good point. Many people on here criticize AP's who live, sleep and breath it, yet if we were a film producer or musician some other passion professional we would be living sleeping and breathing that.

It's not an insult to me. Most people who don't live, sleep and breath what they do for a living is because they are unhappy with what they do. Don't project that onto me. Most AP's do this because they enjoy it.

I will half +1 this because I wouldn't say live, sleep and breath it. It probably depends on the person and his or her situation.
Yes AP's might think about AP more often than someone working a more conventional job thinks about their own job, but it's probably no different than someone who owns their own business trying to think of ways to improve and make more money.

It's more like having a hobby you enjoy or playing sports you like with friends.

As with any job even if you love it, there's probably going to be some things you don't enjoy about it. Who likes hearing an alarm clock at 6am (or before 1pm in my case) after going out and having to much fun all night? Or suddenly having to change your plans because something good came up? I certainly don't like packing, airports and 3-9 hour long flights.

When I first started I actually couldn't wait to get up and get to the casino. I started out for the most part playing a VP game (Fluh Attack) that was more like playing a fun competition or VP tournament. There was anticipation with consistent bursts of adrenaline and excitement. Id compare it to playing a fun video game for money knowing you were the better player.

I know we oftentimes have fun on various plays. We sometimes get together for big games, holidays, dinners and events. We sometimes include friends and family who are not AP's as well.

Everyone has things they enjoy outside of AP just like everyone else.

Normally when traveling we go with at least one other person and usually have fun along the way. Normally someone is ROTFLTAO at few times during even a short trip. Normally something interesting, crazy, strange or fun comes up. At minimum we always eat at new places with good food. I guarantee you we spend lots of time talking about non AP stuff sharing stories, jokes, pranks and get to know a lot about each other.

Even solo AP's oftentimes make friends with other AP's and generally make good friends with each other. If you're not having fun being an AP you're doing it wrong or you're just a miserable person in general and there's probably nothing that wouldn't make you miserable.

Thanks Axelwolf for sharing some of your personal experience AP’ing. Sounds like you’re having a lot of fun, except for the jet setter’s part of traveling around the world with friends making money on advantage plays. Well to be honest I think with any job there’s always a little downside. Some people work day shifts, and some night shifts, so the fact of hearing an alarm clock going off daily is actually pretty normal for most.

Yet, once again you completely ignored all my curious more serious questions of living life in general as an AP.

Hunterhill is obviously living the dream in the fast lane. How about you? You filing Schedule C itemized tax returns from all your winnings as a professional gambler also? If you’re not filing tax returns how do you exist on record, get loans etc., like I asked before? How do you justify any bank account action or balances? Are you living at your MOM’s house? How do you (if desired) decide to get married, buy a house, cars, have children, pay for medical insurance, college, etc. etc. etc.? Do you just write a check like Hunterhill does?

I get the fun, dinners, traveling, and all the money you guys make off the backs of the casino fools. If I was young and still wet behind the ears, I certainly would give this life style ago after reading all the successful stories here. Besides, it must feel real special to become successful at it. Becoming a successful AP’er like Hunterhill and yourself could probably only be compared to falling into that special elite bracket similar to being a professional athlete, or a celebrity. No wonder some of you guys are like rock stars here.

We already know giving up how you find and figure out all of these endless money making plays is top secret, so how about answering some of the more complicated questions of life while being an AP?

If you don't know how to show an income from a source, open bank accounts with eft's, avoid IRS audits, you have lived a very sheltered life. I have known a few bookmakers who have had none of your stated problems, with a mortgage, family, and a better retirement plan that most folks.

Quote: blackhole

I wish there was a weekly spread sheet like the Wall Street Journal’s stock performance results that published all the alleged AP’s on this site’s weekly incomes. (+ or -) Until something like that happens, (of course we all know it could never happen) we’ll be forced to read all these alleged allegations of gambling success every time we visit this site.

Most of us keep some sort of records, with the level of detail controlled only by our level of obsessiveness. Most would be ok with sharing some or all, but it would probably be insanely boring.

Quote: blackhole

My opinion of AP’ing for a living would be similar to collecting deposit bottles for a living. How much you make depends on how hard you work at it. Heck, you could even buy yourself a truck and hire a driver (illegal immigrant for cheap) to drive you up and down the blocks on recycle pick up days while you rummage through the recycle pales likely loaded with free nickels. $$$$$

Very good analogy. Check the dumpsters outside of a few frat houses every Sunday morning and you could make $50 for only a few hours of work every week. Quite a bit more during the really big party times. Put some money into the best video poker pay tables, count through a blackjack game for a few shuffles, check out Ultimate X games and progressives, take advantage of coupons and promotions, and anyone can earn $20 in Value most of the times they walk into a casino, while occasionally doing a lot better then that.

Moving up to finding enough scrap metal to earn as much as you could at another job will be difficult. Just as finding enough value in casino games to earn as much as other full time jobs can be tough. But both are definitely possible and absolutely going on

Quote: blackhole

how do you get mortgages, car loans, or do anything else that requires some type of a back round about yourself?

Highly doubtful I will ever take out any sort of loan. That would be true regardless of source of income is completely irrelevant. There are people who work w2 jobs that can't or won't get loans. Difference for me is that if I ever wanted one, I would be able to put enough money down to my finances completely acceptable to any lender. Nevada and Clark County have both done background checks on me for various reasons and none of them ever cared about what I did in casinos.

Quote: blackhole

How do you justify your existence if it needs to be answered?

It doesn't need to be answered. And if for some reason we wanted to answer that question, we could do it the same way the rest of the world does it: However we want to.

Quote: Paigowdan

Casinos respond to and implement what they feel is important. Casino do not have a long history of telling us anything except that Thursdays are 3x points for seniors.

Every time they take a bet with a negative House Edge they are telling us they are ok with that.

Quote: Paigowdan

If regular players find entertainment at the casino or anywhere, I believe them and I can see that, otherwise they'd be elsewhere.

You're saying that when playing a casino game with a House Edge, contributions are being made; but as soon as that House Edge reverses itself and the edge goes to the player no contributions are being made. You're allowed to believe that, you're also the only one in the world that illogical to believe it

Quote: Paigowdan

I guess this is similar to the wealth of Hollywood studios versus the average Joe movie-goer, or a day laborer versus the oppressive land owner, or what have you. If this is upsetting to you, then don't go to the casino

Because we do go to the casino, it shows we're not upset by it

Quote: TomG

Every time they take a bet with a negative House Edge they are telling us they are ok with that.

Well, yeah. What they're not okay with are the people trying to make the conditions positive player EV, same as with any business.

Quote: TomG

You're saying that when playing a casino game with a House Edge, contributions are being made; but as soon as that House Edge reverses itself and the edge goes to the player no contributions are being made.

I didn't say this, you did.
I said attempts to defeat the service fee mechanism (in the case of casinos the house edge) is unacceptable, as it is for any business.

Casino up here can't give a cat the gavel just for winning regular, hey hey.

Quote: soxfan

Casino up here can't give a cat the gavel just for winning regular, hey hey.

The gavel. Classic soxfan. Good to see you!

Quote: soxfan

Casino up here can't give a cat the gavel just for winning regular, hey hey.

Yay, soxfan is back!! Welcome back.


An AP can put his money in the bank and keep some amount in cash at home. That way for regular day-to-day play you can use cash. And when you go out of town or need lots of money, can wire money to the casino and/or set up a credit line. Everything would be pretty much the same as a regular job, at least tax/accounting wise. Pay for your own insurance, get loans just like regular 9-5'ers do, etc.

Quote: blackhole

We already know giving up how you find and figure out all of these endless money making plays is top secret, so how about answering some of the more complicated questions of life while being an AP?

It's not top secret at all. It just requires the ability to look at the available bets and only pick the positive ones. Like anything else, some people are really good at that, most are average, and some are terrible.

AP isn't much different than daytrading, except the upside on daytrading is orders of magnitude higher and you don't need to visit casinos to make your bets. But I get the sense that you wouldn't have as much overt distaste for stock market speculators as casino APs. Why?

Quote: Paigowdan

2. That any income based on techniques to skim or re-appropriate the revenue of other businesses may be considered non-contributory or parasitic actions, as derogatory as that sounds.
3. That any income based on techniques to skim or re-appropriate the revenue of other businesses may be intellectually or emotionally be rationalized by painting the targeted business as evil, parasitic or predatory (which is just the projection of the skimmer's own behavior - most civilians view casinos as businesses who provide gaming services and its workers are regular working people). AP is also justified by claiming it as "skills based" (no argument here), - while ostensibly patronizing casinos as false customers. The two arguments here are "don't look at me - it's the people I'm skimming from who are really the predators," and "my efforts require skill, so that makes what I do on the up-and-up."

There might be a hall of mirrors with the projection going on here. I've made (always modest, sadly) money in almost every area of gambling. Worked on the dark side, played poker and sports and, most recently, done AP stuff.

I felt the most guilty working for the house, and it's not even close. I saw the same people, all the time, some of them slowly destroying their lives, many of them squandering money that should have gone to the welfare of their children, or that belonged to other people. And, if casinos didn't exist, most of them wouldn't have done it. We were making our living of some sort of cognitive defect, or emotional problem that these people had. Of course, many others were having fun, but the degens were our bread and butter.

I don't think it's inherently immoral to be in the casino biz, nor tobacco, fast food or liquor. But you might as well accept the fact that you're peddling something that some people enjoy responsibly, and others are severely harmed by. I don't think there's much doubt that total utility would go up if gambling magically vanished. It takes hell of a lot of fun nights out to cancel out a homeless family.

And I agree, some APs go overboard in condemning the other side, in trying to make their own practices seem somehow righteous, which they are not. But I feel just fine beating these business at their own games, especially since I take care of the workers when I can. (I have much more of a problem with APs who never tip, than those who beat the casinos).

Would anybody dispute that APs of every variety are parasites? I don't think so. This is true of many professions, though. And many more are malignancies. I'd rather be the most angle shooting, borderline cheat in the world than someone who profits from and foments unjust wars, for example.

And, your work life is just one facet of what you do. The late, lamented KewlJ spent a week every day doing laundry for homeless kids and let a struggling young person live in his house. Wish I was that immoral.

Quote: Rigondeaux

There might be a hall of mirrors with the projection going on here. I've made (always modest, sadly) money in almost every area of gambling. Worked on the dark side, played poker and sports and, most recently, done AP stuff.

Not my projection, not at all - zero.
I look at this from both sides, - and from the point of view of any type of business - where fleecing or scamming a merchant or provider by using any disallowed maneuver for personal profit is the issue. And this is the issue in AP, which is why a goal of AP is precisely to go undetected, so as to conceal any deceit in your purpose for being there, - else why try to hide it? Say "Yes- put me in the surveillance 'Book' ."
1. AP is not gambling, it is where the juice or the goal is to pull disallowed maneuvers, to exploit for personal financial profit.
2. Regular gamblers who have zero interest in AP, and who play in agreement with the casino and look for and obey the results in approved play actually seem to do fine: they enjoy it, they win legitimately and by the rules, they like the casino workers and they like them back, and are welcomed. Regular players have nothing to hide, and are out in the open with zero issues. I just can't fault this, or hold regular players in any sort of disparagement or contempt as somehow "unenlightened." I think a number of AP players are enamored or enthralled "with the needle" of the AP realm.

Quote: Rig

I felt the most guilty working for the house, and it's not even close.

That's you and your feelings here, really. I don't view casinos as dope pushers, not any more than bars or restaurants who service alcohol as pushers.

Quote: Rig

I saw the same people, all the time, some of them slowly destroying their lives, many of them squandering money that should have gone to the welfare of their children, or that belonged to other people. And, if casinos didn't exist, most of them wouldn't have done it. We were making our living of some sort of cognitive defect, or emotional problem that these people had. Of course, many others were having fun, but the degens were our bread and butter.

I saw the same people frequently too, in the years I worked as a table games pit employee. The vast majority of regular players were quite well-adjusted and friendly, and were simply there to play some cards or throw dice after dinner. What the hell. I saw nothing wrong with that at all, and I am not going to claim that this is evil in order to somehow justify AP behavior in the exploitation of casino businesses by labeling casinos as exploiters - and this is the AP projection. The claim of "I'm just exploiting the exploiters" is malarkey, as you're committing the exact behavior that you claim onto others not doing it, as it is "play if you want," -just as a bar is "drink if you want." To make the argument that offering gambling services is exploitation, then you'd have to practice what you preach by not participating in gambling instead of justifying AP as the solution - IF AP really is "gambling."
And yeah, I also saw some gamblers who should be in GA, as well as AP players and shot takers either got caught and stopped or spent their time grinding away at it. People's behavior and their responses to casinos or anything else is their responsibility, not labeling casinos or bars or what have you as evil or the problem here.

Quote: Rig

I don't think it's inherently immoral to be in the casino biz, nor tobacco, fast food or liquor. But you might as well accept the fact that you're peddling something that some people enjoy responsibly, and others are severely harmed by.

You're right, it's not immoral, and some people can't handle it. People overeat - so ban McDonalds or In-and-Out Burger or call them evil? People are diabetic - ban large sugary soft drinks like Mayor Mike Bloomberg of NYC, and call The Pepsi Bottling Company an evil entity? People abuse alcohol - ban pubs and bars and liquor stores and call them evil? Can't handle the sight of an attractive woman out in public? Make women wear potato sack garments with peepholes so they can see because I can't handle it as a grown-up man?...
Anyone who thinks casinos are exploitative has no business stepping in one, patronizing them, and then calling them the evil bad guys. This is B.S.

Quote: Rig

I don't think there's much doubt that total utility would go up if gambling magically vanished. It takes hell of a lot of fun nights out to cancel out a homeless family.

Then don't step into one at all, - ever - but instead petition to ban and outlaw them.

Quote: Rig

And I agree, some APs go overboard in condemning the other side, in trying to make their own practices seem somehow righteous, which they are not. But I feel just fine beating these business at their own games, especially since I take care of the workers when I can. (I have much more of a problem with APs who never tip, than those who beat the casinos).

"Beating them at their own game," ah, the Robin Hood defense. Now, if you're saying that the way to patronize casinos is to AP, then you're saying:
1. Initiate the war to call the other guy the war mongers.
2. If AP weren't possible, then casinos shouldn't exist, to include regular non-AP gambling, eh? I mean, if you "can't beat them at their own game" then would you go to a casino to play straight-up non-AP gambling "without any angle?" To state this is to state that AP is not really gambling, and that regular ploppie gamblers shouldn't gamble, except to feed the casinos that AP feeds from. This is why regular non-AP players are called dupes.

Quote: RS

Would anybody dispute that APs of every variety are parasites? I don't think so. This is true of many professions, though. And many more are malignancies. I'd rather be the most angle shooting, borderline cheat in the world than someone who profits from and foments unjust wars, for example.

How righteous it is, to justify AP by your other good qualities and pacifism ("Well, I didn't kill any Vietnamese..."). Easy to fall into.

Quote: Rig

And, your work life is just one facet of what you do. The late, lamented KewlJ spent a week every day doing laundry for homeless kids and let a struggling young person live in his house. Wish I was that immoral.

I don't. I can't see giving to charity for the purposes of justifying other behavior as a red herring. Your work life is just one facet of your life, as your whole life is to be considered. Charity helps, but it doesn't justify.

Quote: MathExtremist

It's not top secret at all. It just requires the ability to look at the available bets and only pick the positive ones. Like anything else, some people are really good at that, most are average, and some are terrible.

AP isn't much different than daytrading, except the upside on daytrading is orders of magnitude higher and you don't need to visit casinos to make your bets. But I get the sense that you wouldn't have as much overt distaste for stock market speculators as casino APs. Why?

The real money consistently being made on Wall Street is almost all being done by the insiders. Your average Johnny investor could get lucky once in a while with a lot of hard work, but to consistently win on Wall Street, being inside is all that matters. I’m not talking about investing in blue chip companies hoping you end up a little better then bank money. To an insider, day trading on your own would be considered something similar to a degenerate gambler. Yes, you might have a 20k winning session day trading, but it’s inevitable where you’ll most likely end up. Life changing wins on Wall Street or at a casino are only life changing wins if you change your life. By the way, getting a real honest stock tip is as rare as getting a good horse tip. I know everyone here is going to have at least one horse or stock story, but that story or stories were not enough to change your life.

Once again I’m not saying Ap’ing is not possible. It’s just the way it is glorified here as if it’s a good way to make a living. Personally, I think the amount of hours and effort AP’ing requires just to etch out a living would be considered insane to most.

I know the AP’s here who do only rely on AP for a living want to brag how smart and clever they are that they could do this successfully. After all I do get this is a gambling web site. There’s no doubt it would be much better than being homeless, but to consider the security of your entire future on it will for most end in disaster. The time of your life that’s wasted will be regretted eventually.

What does bother me most is young kids or anyone else for that matter who come here because they just discovered gambling and could be convinced by mostly bullshit and false hopes of being that next great athlete or celebrity splashing the endless cash around.

I’m certain there are many here that if they wanted to be honest could come forward with their sad outcomes taking the AP path. Strange how for the most part you never seem to read any of those sad stories here. Visiting sites like this you start to wonder how the casinos good possibly be doing so well.

I just prefer the idea of doing my own thing. Big money isn't my motivation.

Not sure what your motivation of coming on here so to bash ap- unless you or a friend couldn't or didn't make it and are angry
Just like in any profession
The best stock traders make a killing - others lose their ass
The best poker players make money others lose their ass
I worked on Wall Street and made great money at 23-28 and didn't enjoy it anywhere close to as much as I enjoy ap
I also ap travel - and rarely if ever pay much for tickets- are you going to make claims that it is impossible for that as well?
I'm not willing to put any documentation of casino ap here
But I'm more then willing to show how this year alone I earned 8 round trip tickets in the United States without paying a dollar
5 free nights at Marriott
And over 500 in gift cards without spending or risking a single cent- just like others can't figure it out- it's the same as being an ap in a casino

Someone needs to teach this guy to AP casinos just to piss off Dan.

Funny you said that - I'll send you something via pm about that

Axelwolf you back? See you had to ride in on the shoulders of someone else, but of course no contribution about your glamorous life. Do you still live with your Mom? I know it's none of my business, but just wondering if that helps to off set expenses.

Looks like you two rock star jet setter ap’s are looking to get this thread off topic.

The only mention between your posts above about AP’ing is that you’re not going to talk about it. "I'm not willing to put any documentation of casino ap here" Most understand how it's done. Let's forget about all the money you're making. I'm more curious about how you go about the everyday things one usually needs to do. I know you eat, sleep, and breath AP'ing, but with a spouse, kids, a home, cars, all these things everyone else has to contend with. How to you find the time? Just some more details of the things that go on behind the scenes while living the jet setter's life of AP'ing while you're not AP'ing would be interesting I'm sure for all here to read.

You won't be here long, and honestly the mods need to 86 you instantly/
Yes I'll admit to flagging this post because it's absolutely insulting!!!!!!!
You are acting like an total jerk

Quote: blackhole

The real money consistently being made on Wall Street is almost all being done by the insiders. Your average Johnny investor could get lucky once in a while with a lot of hard work, but to consistently win on Wall Street, being inside is all that matters. I’m not talking about investing in blue chip companies hoping you end up a little better then bank money. To an insider, day trading on your own would be considered something similar to a degenerate gambler. Yes, you might have a 20k winning session day trading, but it’s inevitable where you’ll most likely end up. Life changing wins on Wall Street or at a casino are only life changing wins if you change your life. By the way, getting a real honest stock tip is as rare as getting a good horse tip. I know everyone here is going to have at least one horse or stock story, but that story or stories were not enough to change your life.

Once again I’m not saying Ap’ing is not possible. It’s just the way it is glorified here as if it’s a good way to make a living. Personally, I think the amount of hours and effort AP’ing requires just to etch out a living would be considered insane to most.

I know the AP’s here who do only rely on AP for a living want to brag how smart and clever they are that they could do this successfully. After all I do get this is a gambling web site. There’s no doubt it would be much better than being homeless, but to consider the security of your entire future on it will for most end in disaster. The time of your life that’s wasted will be regretted eventually.

What does bother me most is young kids or anyone else for that matter who come here because they just discovered gambling and could be convinced by mostly bullshit and false hopes of being that next great athlete or celebrity splashing the endless cash around.

I’m certain there are many here that if they wanted to be honest could come forward with their sad outcomes taking the AP path. Strange how for the most part you never seem to read any of those sad stories here. Visiting sites like this you start to wonder how the casinos good possibly be doing so well.

For most people Ap is not the best career path. If you're willing to put the time and effort in you can succeed. If you put the same effort into another endeavor you probably will also be successful in that.
There are pros and cons with anything. I don't think anyone here is trying to encourage someone to quit their job or drop out of school to become an Ap.
The thing i like the most is the freedom.I work when i want to and don't have to answer to anyone. You may say that Aps etch out a living but most of the ones i know certainly wouldn't be classified as etching out a living.

Quote: Paigowdan

Not my projection, not at all - zero.
I look at this from both sides, - and from the point of view of any type of business - where fleecing or scamming a merchant or provider by using any disallowed maneuver for personal profit is the issue. And this is the issue in AP, which is why a goal of AP is precisely to go undetected, so as to conceal any deceit in your purpose for being there, - else why try to hide it? Say "Yes- put me in the surveillance 'Book' ."
1. AP is not gambling, it is where the juice or the goal is to pull disallowed maneuvers, to exploit for personal financial profit.
2. Regular gamblers who have zero interest in AP, and who play in agreement with the casino and look for and obey the results in approved play actually seem to do fine: they enjoy it, they win legitimately and by the rules, they like the casino workers and they like them back, and are welcomed. Regular players have nothing to hide, and are out in the open with zero issues. I just can't fault this, or hold regular players in any sort of disparagement or contempt as somehow "unenlightened." I think a number of AP players are enamored or enthralled "with the needle" of the AP realm.



That's you and your feelings here, really. I don't view casinos as dope pushers, not any more than bars or restaurants who service alcohol as pushers.


I saw the same people frequently too, in the years I worked as a table games pit employee. The vast majority of regular players were quite well-adjusted and friendly, and were simply there to play some cards or throw dice after dinner. What the hell. I saw nothing wrong with that at all, and I am not going to claim that this is evil in order to somehow justify AP behavior in the exploitation of casino businesses by labeling casinos as exploiters - and this is the AP projection. The claim of "I'm just exploiting the exploiters" is malarkey, as you're committing the exact behavior that you claim onto others not doing it, as it is "play if you want," -just as a bar is "drink if you want." To make the argument that offering gambling services is exploitation, then you'd have to practice what you preach by not participating in gambling instead of justifying AP as the solution - IF AP really is "gambling."
And yeah, I also saw some gamblers who should be in GA, as well as AP players and shot takers either got caught and stopped or spent their time grinding away at it. People's behavior and their responses to casinos or anything else is their responsibility, not labeling casinos or bars or what have you as evil or the problem here.


You're right, it's not immoral, and some people can't handle it. People overeat - so ban McDonalds or In-and-Out Burger or call them evil? People are diabetic - ban large sugary soft drinks like Mayor Mike Bloomberg of NYC, and call The Pepsi Bottling Company an evil entity? People abuse alcohol - ban pubs and bars and liquor stores and call them evil? Can't handle the sight of an attractive woman out in public? Make women wear potato sack garments with peepholes so they can see because I can't handle it as a grown-up man?...
Anyone who thinks casinos are exploitative has no business stepping in one, patronizing them, and then calling them the evil bad guys. This is B.S.


Then don't step into one at all, - ever - but instead petition to ban and outlaw them.


"Beating them at their own game," ah, the Robin Hood defense. Now, if you're saying that the way to patronize casinos is to AP, then you're saying:
1. Initiate the war to call the other guy the war mongers.
2. If AP weren't possible, then casinos shouldn't exist, to include regular non-AP gambling, eh? I mean, if you "can't beat them at their own game" then would you go to a casino to play straight-up non-AP gambling "without any angle?" To state this is to state that AP is not really gambling, and that regular ploppie gamblers shouldn't gamble, except to feed the casinos that AP feeds from. This is why regular non-AP players are called dupes.


How righteous it is, to justify AP by your other good qualities and pacifism ("Well, I didn't kill any Vietnamese..."). Easy to fall into.


I don't. I can't see giving to charity for the purposes of justifying other behavior as a red herring. Your work life is just one facet of your life, as your whole life is to be considered. Charity helps, but it doesn't justify.

Well, if mental gymnasts ever becomes an olympic sport, I'll be glad we have you on team USA!

There's a lot of arguing against things I never said and so forth, so I'll try to cut to the core issues.

First off, I don't think most APs really need to defend or justify what they do. Like most, I've known about card counting for over 20 years. I don't do it (I'm too dumb), but I've had at least a passing interest in gambling for a long time so I've been aware of it and talked about it. Movies have been made about it. It's never crossed my mind, and I've never heard anyone say, that it's immoral. And I think that applies to similar activities as well.

Even when I worked for the house, we were taught about AP maneuvers, dubbed "scams" by the boss. But nobody seemed to think they were immoral. APs (though we didn't use that term) were just our adversaries. We were all there trying to get the money. Our job just involved shutting APs out because they were competition. I think most of us admired their cleverness.

So, you're making this unusual claim, and then acting like anybody who disagrees with it is somehow engaging in bizarre rationalizations for what is considered immoral behavior by default. But it isn't so.

I wonder, in your mind, is seeking an edge immoral or is finding one immoral? Is it wrong to be a better handicapper than your saintly bookie? Is it wrong to line shop? Are people who are bad at seeking edges, like those who find the patterns in baccarat, immoral too? Or is it OK, because they lose? Why is it OK for the house to give them those little cards and pencils, misleading them to believe that the patterns matter? Why is it OK for bookmakers to work with fraudulent touts? It's OK for a big business to mislead or outwit people, but not for people to do it to that same business?

My point about jobs, and your observation that APs are parasites, was simply that I see no moral obligation to earn an income in a way that benefits society. I can't imagine a good argument for that position. Perhaps, on the whole, you should lead a life that benefits society (debatable, but I might agree). But your compartmentalization is arbitrary.

If I work for a good non-profit 40 hours a week and just want to watch sports on the weekend, I think I'm exceeding any sane standard for contributing to society. So, why wouldn't the reverse be true?

I don't--do not--think AP is righteous. I think it's just a neutral parasitism, like many jobs and existences.

However, if you ARE going to pass moral judgement on jobs or industries, the casino business is one of the worst. The point is the incredible level of hypocrisy on the part of anybody in the casino biz, claiming that APs are immoral.

You're in the business of designing mechanisms that tap into a cognitive, emotional or psychological defect in a person and use it to bleed away their money. And also entertaining some other people.

Maybe at casinos on the strip, truly recreational gamblers are the norm. People spending a few hundred at the tables instead of on some nice clothes or a fancy dinner and having fun with it. But if you honestly believe that is the norm in casinos in general, your powers of denial are fantastic.

When I worked in an LA card club, 75% of our business came from problem gamblers, and I'm being conservative. Many times, people asked me for advice on stopping. I've heard hundreds of people openly discussing their problems. I was on a machine next to a lady the other night, who was openly discussing her problem gambling. She mentioned that her ex had stolen $5,000 from her to gamble. As a matter of fact, I had a roommate who had a secret gambling addiction and he stole thousands of dollars from me.

Our custoemrs often discussed things like moving to somewhere like Utah, and away from family, to get away from casinos because they couldn't maintain 24/7 will power when living near one. I don't know how you worked in a pit and never saw this.

So, most likely, some of your net worth used to belong to people who have since committed suicide. If there wasn't casino gambling in their area, or they'd never been exposed to it, they'd be alive today.

It is an absolute certainty that a good chunk of your net worth comes from depleted college funds, aborted family vacations, money for school clothes and supplies, etc. etc. And plenty of divorces, crime and other dysfunction resulted from that flow of funds.

This is true of me as well, and anybody involved with gambling. That's where the money APs make comes from, though they are a step removed. And, as I said, I used to work for the house too. But I'm willing to accept the fact that it's a very ugly business. It's been recognized as such around the world for centuries. Duh.

Bars/alcohol and even tobacco are charitable comparisons. Because it actually is true that the vast majority of people can go out to a bar and have fun, and this is enough to sustain the business. I've had lots and lots of fun drinking. Tobacco kills you slowly, shaving maybe a decade off the end of your life. Few people get divorced over it, and it doesn't have much effect on the lives of those around you.

Now, it doesn't follow that I should go on a crusade to make gambling illegal, as you suggested. I tend to be small "l" libertarian. Part of a free society is that we can consume harmful stuff and I've consumed a lot of it.

But, when you actually watch someone, who you know and who seems like a good person otherwise, lose every extra nickle they have it's pretty depressing. Especially when they have a family. Maybe that's why you have to get so high and mighty about the evils of counting cards, exploiting promos or even (gasp!) hole carding and pretend that real casinos are like the ones you see in commercials.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Well, if mental gymnasts ever becomes an olympic sport, I'll be glad we have you on team USA!

There's a lot of arguing against things I never said and so forth, so I'll try to cut to the core issues.

First off, I don't think most APs really need to defend or justify what they do. Like most, I've known about card counting for over 20 years. I don't do it (I'm too dumb), but I've had at least a passing interest in gambling for a long time so I've been aware of it and talked about it. Movies have been made about it. It's never crossed my mind, and I've never heard anyone say, that it's immoral. And I think that applies to similar activities as well.

No one defends what they do. If you're committed to doing something, you own it.

Quote: Rig

Even when I worked for the house, we were taught about AP maneuvers, dubbed "scams" by the boss. But nobody seemed to think they were immoral. APs (though we didn't use that term) were just our adversaries. We were all there trying to get the money. Our job just involved shutting APs out because they were competition. I think most of us admired their cleverness.

So were we taught. We didn't think card counting was clever, it was as old as the hills. We shut APs out because of loss prevention, much in the same way that Walmart tries to shut down shop lifting and pilferage, as loss prevention for business operations.

Quote: Rig

So, you're making this unusual claim, and then acting like anybody who disagrees with it is somehow engaging in bizarre rationalizations for what is considered immoral behavior by default. But it isn't so.

The unusual and radical claims made here we a) employing AP maneuvers at a casino isn't gambling, much in the same way that shoplifting at Walmart isn't shopping, it's a loss prevention issue, and b) that AP is generally justified as righteous (and that the casinos are evil and so deserve it) by using the claim
"We're exploiting the exploiters, it's our crusade for extra money, so it isn't really a scam!"

Quote: Rig

I wonder, in your mind, is seeking an edge immoral or is finding one immoral?

No. It is sabotaging the business' service fee mechanism for personal profit by using disallowed techniques that's immoral. Not majorly immoral, but minor, petty. I play with a house edge, and pay the admission cover at movies also.

Quote: Rig

Is it wrong to be a better handicapper than your saintly bookie? Is it wrong to line shop? Are people who are bad at seeking edges, like those who find the patterns in baccarat, immoral too? Or is it OK, because they lose? Why is it OK for the house to give them those little cards and pencils, misleading them to believe that the patterns matter? Why is it OK for bookmakers to work with fraudulent touts? It's OK for a big business to mislead or outwit people, but not for people to do it to that same business?

None of those things are AP, and a lot are wrong to do (fraudulent touts, mislead for profit). It's wrong for businesses to scam the public by lying and calling it "outwitting someone" and one could also argue that they were "just using their brains."

Quote: Rig

My point about jobs, and your observation that APs are parasites, was simply that I see no moral obligation to earn an income in a way that benefits society.

You don't have to do things that benefit society, and as you say here about righteous AP play, "I see no moral obligation to earn an income in a way that benefits society." You admitting an aspect that the AP fleecing of casino businesses benefits society none. But it's when you become parasitic instead of neutral that a negative is introduced, - as someone actually pays for APs personal profit, and that someone is the casinos and the good faith recreational players, the real customers.

Quote: Rig

If I work for a good non-profit 40 hours a week and just want to watch sports on the weekend, I think I'm exceeding any sane standard for contributing to society. So, why wouldn't the reverse be true?

Because it isn't true, AP play isn't comparable to sitting on the couch watching a ball game.

Quote: Rig

I don't--do not--think AP is righteous. I think it's just a neutral parasitism, like many jobs and existences.

I agree with you that fleecing gambling halls is not a right occupation. But it's not neutral in nature, - good faith players, casino workers, management and stockholders have to pay for it, the AP income is paid for by other people.

Quote: Rig

However, if you ARE going to pass moral judgement on jobs or industries, the casino business is one of the worst.

If you honestly believe this then don't ever walk into a casino establishment pretending to be a customer when your own intention is to try to rip them off, at least as they view it.

Quote: Rig

You're in the business of designing mechanisms that tap into a cognitive, emotional or psychological defect in a person and use it to bleed away their money.

I'm in the business of designing entertaining products for casino suppliers and their legitimate customers, the casinos and the gambling public, not for AP players. I don't view gamblers as having "cognitive, emotional or psychological defects" as you put it. If you're saying that AP players don't have these cognitive, emotional or psychological defects but gamblers do, then you're saying AP players are really not gamblers, a contention that I was making. If you're saying that AP players are gamblers, then they also must have these same cognitive, emotional or psychological defects.

Quote: Rig

Maybe at casinos on the strip, truly recreational gamblers are the norm. People spending a few hundred at the tables instead of on some nice clothes or a fancy dinner and having fun with it. But if you honestly believe that is the norm in casinos in general, your powers of denial are fantastic.

Most players are perfectly healthy with gambling, outside of the strip, too.

Quote: Rig

When I worked in an LA card club, 75% of our business came from problem gamblers, and I'm being conservative. Many times, people asked me for advice on stopping. I've heard hundreds of people openly discussing their problems. I was on a machine next to a lady the other night, who was openly discussing her problem gambling. She mentioned that her ex had stolen $5,000 from her to gamble. As a matter of fact, I had a roommate who had a secret gambling addiction and he stole thousands of dollars from me.

Gambling can be addictive as well as handled well. This is up to the individual, same as with alcohol. You make casinos and gambling halls sound like [heroin] shooting galleries, and this is malarkey.

Quote: Rig

So, most likely, some of your net worth used to belong to people who have since committed suicide. If there wasn't casino gambling in their area, or they'd never been exposed to it, they'd be alive today.

I doubt if anyone committed suicide after a session of Heads Up Hold 'em, Three Card Prime or EZ Pai Gow, as awesome and as wonderful as I'd like to think these "killer" games are. I would also think I have some company with Derek Webb, Geoff Hall, and Roger Snow and other members in this games developer group. We're probably get together at Binion's Steakhouse when Geoff is in town in the coming weeks, but it will not be any sort of an Axis of Evil Dinner a la Thank you for Smoking or something...we just make games, and it is not like setting up a Meth Lab like Walter White. For that matter, what if a shift manager commits suicide because he was fired after an AP team cleaned out the joint when he was on duty? Is AP righteous there?
I don't think we're in the same league as the guy who invented crack, or the Japanese chemist who invented Methamphetamine in 1919, or the Scotsman who blends a great single malt, (or Henry Ford or Walter Chrysler for bad driving deaths.) Forget about Perdue Pharma and their product OxyContin. I'm tiddlywinks.
As a matter of fact, a Philippine lady who hit the $250,000 progressive on EZ Pai Gow at the East Side Cannery came to my work when I was dealing and told me she paid off her house. Good for her. (She bought in on Pai Gow there and told me the story.) Ultimately people are responsible for their own gambling habits (as with their own driving habits), we just try to make good products.

Quote: Rig

It is an absolute certainty that a good chunk of your net worth comes from depleted college funds, aborted family vacations, money for school clothes and supplies, etc. etc. And plenty of divorces, crime and other dysfunction resulted from that flow of funds.

I spend it on family vacations, cars, my wife's business, playing craps, and other good things without getting over my head....Again people are responsible for themselves. Gamble if you want - and can handle it.

Quote: Paigowdan

No one defends what they do. If you're committed to doing something, you own it.


So were we taught. We didn't think card counting was clever, it was as old as the hills. We shut APs out because of loss prevention, much in the same way that Walmart tries to shut down shop lifting and pilferage, as loss prevention for business operations.


The unusual and radical claims made here we a) employing AP maneuvers at a casino isn't gambling, much in the same way that shoplifting at Walmart isn't shopping, it's a loss prevention issue, and b) that AP is generally justified as righteous (and that the casinos are evil and so deserve it) by using the claim
"We're exploiting the exploiters, it's our crusade for extra money, so it isn't really a scam!"


No. It is sabotaging the business' service fee mechanism for personal profit by using disallowed techniques that's immoral. Not majorly immoral, but minor, petty. I play with a house edge, and pay the admission cover at movies also.


None of those things are AP, and a lot are wrong to do (fraudulent touts, mislead for profit). It's wrong for businesses to scam the public by lying and calling it "outwitting someone" and one could also argue that they were "just using their brains."


You don't have to do things that benefit society, and as you say here about righteous AP play, "I see no moral obligation to earn an income in a way that benefits society." You admitting an aspect that the AP fleecing of casino businesses benefits society none. But it's when you become parasitic instead of neutral that a negative is introduced, - as someone actually pays for APs personal profit, and that someone is the casinos and the good faith recreational players, the real customers.


Because it isn't true, AP play isn't comparable to sitting on the couch watching a ball game.


I agree with you that fleecing gambling halls is not a right occupation. But it's not neutral in nature, - good faith players, casino workers, management and stockholders have to pay for it, the AP income is paid for by other people.


If you honestly believe this then don't ever walk into a casino establishment pretending to be a customer when your own intention is to try to rip them off, at least as they view it.


I'm in the business of designing entertaining products for casino suppliers and their legitimate customers, the casinos and the gambling public, not for AP players. I don't view gamblers as having "cognitive, emotional or psychological defects" as you put it. If you're saying that AP players don't have these cognitive, emotional or psychological defects but gamblers do, then you're saying AP players are really not gamblers, a contention that I was making. If you're saying that AP players are gamblers, then they also must have these same cognitive, emotional or psychological defects.


Most players are perfectly healthy with gambling, outside of the strip, too.


Gambling can be addictive as well as handled well. This is up to the individual, same as with alcohol. You make casinos and gambling halls sound like [heroin] shooting galleries, and this is malarkey.


I doubt if anyone committed suicide after a session of Heads Up Hold 'em, Three Card Prime or EZ Pai Gow, as awesome and as wonderful as I'd like to think these "killer" games are. I would also think I have some company with Derek Webb, Geoff Hall, and Roger Snow and other members in this games developer group. We're probably get together at Binion's Steakhouse when Geoff is in town in the coming weeks, but it will not be any sort of an Axis of Evil Dinner a la Thank you for Smoking or something...we just make games, and it is not like setting up a Meth Lab like Walter White. For that matter, what if a shift manager commits suicide because he was fired after an AP team cleaned out the joint when he was on duty? Is AP righteous there?
I don't think we're in the same league as the guy who invented crack, or the Japanese chemist who invented Methamphetamine in 1919, or the Scotsman who blends a great single malt, (or Henry Ford or Walter Chrysler for bad driving deaths.) Forget about Perdue Pharma and their product OxyContin. I'm tiddlywinks.
As a matter of fact, a Philippine lady who hit the $250,000 progressive on EZ Pai Gow at the East Side Cannery came to my work when I was dealing and told me she paid off her house. Good for her. (She bought in on Pai Gow there and told me the story.) Ultimately people are responsible for their own gambling habits (as with their own driving habits), we just try to make good products.


I spend it on family vacations, cars, my wife's business, playing craps, and other good things without getting over my head....Again people are responsible for themselves. Gamble if you want - and can handle it.

If you you continue with the "APs 'fleece' casinos", I may look into legal action against you! Stop the "APs are crooks" mentality NOW!

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If you you continue with the "APs 'fleece' casinos", I may look into legal action against you! Stop the "APs are crooks" mentality NOW!

Go ahead, have your lawyer call my lawyer. All I'd need to do is show how it destroys the needed service fee/house edge (which it provably does), and that it is disallowed in business as a loss prevention issue.

Quote: Paigowdan

Go ahead, have your lawyer call my lawyer.

Keep making these false, phoney and most importantly "slanderous" statements and I will.

Like I told you in Plain English, - do so.

Dan you really need to look at both sides- I feel you are just disgruntled as it could effect your bottom line..... Casinos are out to take my money and I'm out to take theirs.

Just last night playing pai gow

I had a hand of 25689 all hearts and j10 of diamonds - I was tired and it was my last had and I didn't see the flush, The casino would not let me reset my hand--- why? Because they are out to take my money- itherwsie the house EDGE as you say I was giving based on the game payouts, you should agree that given that exact hand they should have fixed it - IF THE HOUSE EDGE is their fee and not MY MISTAKES. But they didn't- they took advantage of my mistake and took my money just like I take advantage of their mistakes and take theirs.

United airlines had a glitch a year or so ago and certain flights were online at 1- people booked a lot of them
If they were lucky enough to find them- did they ban the people ? Black list them? No they honored it just like the plaza did for the promo- make a mistake own it and move on

Quote: blackhole

Axelwolf you back? See you had to ride in on the shoulders of someone else, but of course no contribution about your glamorous life. Do you still live with your Mom? I know it's none of my business, but just wondering if that helps to off set expenses.

Looks like you two rock star jet setter ap’s are looking to get this thread off topic.

The only mention between your posts above about AP’ing is that you’re not going to talk about it. "I'm not willing to put any documentation of casino ap here" Most understand how it's done. Let's forget about all the money you're making. I'm more curious about how you go about the everyday things one usually needs to do. I know you eat, sleep, and breath AP'ing, but with a spouse, kids, a home, cars, all these things everyone else has to contend with. How to you find the time? Just some more details of the things that go on behind the scenes while living the jet setter's life of AP'ing while you're not AP'ing would be interesting I'm sure for all here to read.

I'm taking what you said as a personal insult.

Actually I was in the middle of responding yesterday when I got interrupted and had to go. I was on my phone and I closed out the window. At that point I said Fk it there's no benefit responding to you for many reasons.

Someone even asked me about you and wondered what your deal is. I said, I really don't know, but it seems obvious you're just trying to stir up sh*t and bait people, myself included.

I explained it's just a waste of time because you will never be satisfied with any legitimate answer or proof you get, so What's the point? We/I are dealing with some new, random, anonymous person no one I know has ever even meet. It's a waste of time, especially since you will and can easily just disappear.

You obviously have some special personal grudge against me(I'm sure you'll deny that). For all I know you're someone like B79. AAMOF I started to get some strange prank calls again about the time you showed up. I have even mentioned that to a few people. I'm sure it's just coincidence, but that doesn't matter since you seem to have some negative agenda here and nothing good can come of it.

I'll respond to some of the stuff you said and that's hopefully the last time. I'm asking that you not mention me, or direct questions at or about me, just pretend I don't exist. Ill try and do the same.

I never compared it to a jet setting life, you did. It's certainly not at least not in the normal sense of that word. I never said anything about a glamorous life, you did. Again. I'm not into glamour and glitz. Is it oftentimes fun and lots of freedom? Absolutely. I never said anything about all the money making you keep alluding to. I don't claim to make many specific claims about money or other things, perhaps others do. My personal and financial situation is none of your business. I'll share what I want, with who I want. I am even more reluctant to share more now that you seem to be pushing the issue. I don't think you have an earnest interest about me or advantage players unless it's something negative.

Most successful advantage players can put in as many or as few hours as they want. Every AP is different how they work and what they do, There's a wide spectrum.

I don't think AP is for most people. I'm not advocating people should get into it. I just don't think people(like Dan) who are not AP's should make assumptions based on what they hear or who they know.

AP's can be compared to individual business owners. They all do things differently, some have bigger businesses, some smaller, some work hard, some rarely work, and they all make various amounts of money. The amount of money they make isn't always related to how hard they work or how little they work.

AAMOF All aspects of AP including taxes, loans, housing, cars, insurance etc etc can be compared to a individual business owner.

Well said, but I flagged him and I would be really upset if he isn't just suspended for insults asap

Casinos should - but not always give benefit of the doubt to reset hands, at least to the house way.
I reset many players' hands to the correct setting (at a Stations Property) because the house allowed it at that property as a player consideration on the game. You can also point to that and say "you see, casino businesses are decent," but one doesn't do this.

Players have an advantage where they don't have to limit their hands to a house way, which is a restriction that the dealer must abide by. Here, the house simply says "the hand plays as you set it," meaning no mulligans or resets because the player screwed up. This call is up to the house, and each house is different. I say give the player a break and re-set it to the house way.

If a business advertises a price, they have to stick to it. A casino can't pay you 6:5 on a 3:2 blackjack table if the table is (and says) 3:2 on Blackjack. Here the casino has to cover their mistake, too, even if they meant it as a 6:5 game, and a player can indeed hold them to their mistake without issue.

Quote: blackhole

Axelwolf you back? See you had to ride in on the shoulders of someone else, but of course no contribution about your glamorous life. Do you still live with your Mom? I know it's none of my business, but just wondering if that helps to off set expenses.

Looks like you two rock star jet setter ap’s are looking to get this thread off topic.

The only mention between your posts above about AP’ing is that you’re not going to talk about it. "I'm not willing to put any documentation of casino ap here" Most understand how it's done. Let's forget about all the money you're making. I'm more curious about how you go about the everyday things one usually needs to do. I know you eat, sleep, and breath AP'ing, but with a spouse, kids, a home, cars, all these things everyone else has to contend with. How to you find the time? Just some more details of the things that go on behind the scenes while living the jet setter's life of AP'ing while you're not AP'ing would be interesting I'm sure for all here to read.

Personal insult. 3 days.

Edit: after discussion with another mod, and review of all his posts, Blackhole has made multiple attacks on more members than just Axel. Martingaling to 30 days. No personal attacks here.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm taking what you said as a personal insult.

Let me explain me. You shouldn't on me, because I gave no personal insult or named no real-named person. BH may have, and is out for 3 days. I said, "this is my view is this on, and here's the reasons why I see it this way," agreeing with a lot of casino shift managers on this.

I also discussed that people may give a "to the ends of the earth" defense of each position including AP devotees, but saying that I was name calling or baiting instead of debating is not true. I just hold a counter-position on this.

Quote: AW

Someone even asked me about you and wondered what your deal is. I said, I really don't know, but it seems obvious you're just trying to stir up sh*t and bait people, myself included.

No I debate points, some of which may hurt sacred cow Point-of-views held that some hold dear; however, this does not constitute personal insult, and I regret you feel offended.

Quote: AW

You obviously have some special personal grudge against me(I'm sure you'll deny that). For all I know you're someone like B79. AAMOF I started to get some strange prank calls again about the time you showed up. I have even mentioned that to a few people. I'm sure it's just coincidence, but that doesn't matter since you seem to have some negative agenda here and nothing good can come of it.

I have no personal grudge against you or anyone here at all, really, I have no bad feelings for anyone, and I have positive feelings for many. you're fine in my book, really. When I debate and disagree with a point, and give my reasons why, I state arguments on the topic with no bad feelings about the person holding a counter argument. When some of my gaming mathematicians are in town (who are dyed/died-in-the-wool AP players), we gamble at craps and UTH and have dinner, no issues at all. I'm designing a game with an AP player, and it doesn't matter.

Quote: AW

I'll respond to some of the stuff you said and that's hopefully the last time. I'm asking that you not mention me, or direct questions at or about me, just pretend I don't exist. Ill try and do the same.

I don't mention you, discuss you or think about you, really; I only discuss the merits and especially the demerits of AP play and its milieu as a gaming related topic to debate, which I feel is defended by AP in an "Us against the World" all-costs fashion. I both support and attack arguments and positions relating to gaming and casino operations, but I do not slander to praise people by name (or threaten to sue them), although I may praise a game design by a person's forum handle. I even go so far as to truncate the anonymous handle to "AW," "Rig," etc., BH may be taking a shot, (he was) but it may be just jealousy.

Quote: AW

I never compared it to a jet setting life, you did. It's certainly not at least not in the normal sense of that word. I never said anything about a glamorous life, you did. Again. I'm not into glamour and glitz.

I'm not accusing you personally of presenting AP lifestyle as a jet-setting realm; I know it isn't also, as it's about money management skills and technique development and implementation, dry stuff it can be argued.

Quote: AW

Is it oftentimes fun and lots of freedom? Absolutely.

I can see that. I can also see it as a rationale for being a Biker and for many pursuits. We all see that aspect.

Quote: AW

I never said anything about all the money making you keep alluding to.

Didn't say you had said that; I had only discuss AP "money" in terms of what might be taken from ploppies and business operations in terms of costs, not in jet-setting lifestyles, and it could be small amounts. BH though was taking a shot.

Quote: AW

I don't claim to make many specific claims about money or other things, perhaps others do. My personal and financial situation is none of your business. I'll share what I want, with who I want.

I'm not interested in your personal business affairs and I think this is clear; again, I make arguments for and against AP play and casinos responses to it, and the arguments and rationales for them. Most aren't. Do not feel that people are at a forum.

Quote: AW

I am even more reluctant to share more now that you seem to be pushing the issue. I don't think you have an earnest interest about me or advantage players unless it's something negative.

Share what you want. Let no one, even BH, get you off kilter. I have an interest in arguments and rationales for debate in both AP and casino mindsets on this, I have absolutely no interest in the people or their lives behind the screen name handles, unless I personally know them and like them. I have an interest in gaming, in game design, and game protection, and open discussion of that.

Quote: AW

Most successful advantage players can put in as many or as few hours as they want. Every AP is different how they work and what they do, There's a wide spectrum.

It runs the gamut.

Quote: AW

I don't think AP is for most people. I'm not advocating people should get into it. I just don't think people(like Dan) who are not AP's should make assumptions based on what they hear or who they know.

You said something revealing: "I just don't like....." - and not liking certain Point of Views or arguments is part and parcel for a forum discussion, especially if it about things held dear and close to the heart to the reader. But I look at Gaming and AP and design areas coldly with cold subject arguments. And yes, assumptions are made and stated, such as "in terms of loss prevention AP might be viewed as theft of services by the casino, and I can see that...", and "AP practices in some ways is not really gambling as a gambler, as other elements and goals are introduced, and they are...." Presenting all these disagreeing views may be upsetting if holding certain AP-positive views close to heart, and I get that.

Quote: AW

AP's can be compared to individual business owners. They all do things differently, some have bigger businesses, some smaller, some work hard, some rarely work, and they all make various amounts of money. The amount of money they make isn't always related to how hard they work or how little they work.

ANY undertaking that generates income can be viewed as from the point of view of business ownership and operations. Amway tells it subscribers that they are now "Professional American Business owners." My patent attorney, (who helps me file IP on games that some here had claimed lead to suicide from gambling losses) views his income from me in business terms. For that matter, Al Capone, Pablo Escobar and Griselda Blanco viewed their actions and decisions in terms of business operations. Anything that involves managing a cash producing operation on an on-going basis is a business enterprise.

Quote: AW

AAMOF All aspects of AP including taxes, loans, housing, cars, insurance etc etc can be compared to a individual business owner.

yes they can indeed.

I did not write that,
Dan did ;-)
He didn't know AW was responding to another, now suspended, poster.

But while we are picking on Axel,
I recently wrote he had a cute thumb in a picture.
I did not tell the truth ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I did not write that,
Dan did ;-)
He didn't know AW was responding to another, now suspended, poster.

I wanted to explain my difference, - BH was taking a bit of nasty jab ,100%, while - and as hard as this is to believe I have positive or neutral feelings for all members here throughout all arguments and debates.

I do not want to be in the same category as the BH versus Axelwolf. and fear that I am viewed as he is.
First, there are some APs who can get up there dollar wise, and it may be AW. I don't express doubts on this.
Second, if you do something as a pastime or as income, you have to own it without apology. I think a fine point is that there is a difference between attacking what one does versus accusations of what one is called by name. Dislike AP, but don't dislike the AP player.

Quote: Paigowdan

...Dislike AP...

And we dislike Steve Wynn, Sheldon Adelson any other owner with the edge against us. Don't like that? Too GD bad.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

And we dislike Steve Wynn, Sheldon Adelson any other owner with the edge against us. Don't like that? Too GD bad.

I don't mind it at all. Couldn't care less about which CEO is liked or not by gamblers or by APs, how does it matter. When I was at Stations, I liked my shift manager, never had a thought of the Fertittas.
Why care about the liking/not liking a CEO versus a casino and what if offers? I like the Wynn/Encore, don't care about Steve Wynn.

Quote: Paigowdan

No. It is sabotaging the business' service fee mechanism for personal profit by using disallowed techniques that's immoral. Not majorly immoral, but minor, petty. I play with a house edge, and pay the admission cover at movies also.

This is where you become so illogical and contradictory that even the casinos completely disagree with you. The casinos has the choice to decline any bet they want. If they accept a bet it is, by definition, allowed. If they were to disallow the technique, the player would have no Advantage.

I'm sure you're going to continue to babble in circles. It's become completely obvious you're only taking this position to try to be annoying because there is no possible way anyone could ever believe such a stupid conclusion: that the casino is somehow choosing to accept bets that they don't want to accept.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Rig

Is it wrong to be a better handicapper than your saintly bookie? Is it wrong to line shop?

None of those things are AP

100% wrong. Beating market price in the sportsbook is universally and unconditionally an Advantage Play

Quote: Paigowdan

Let me explain me. You shouldn't on me, because I gave no personal insult or named no real-named person. BH may have, and is out for 3 days. I said, "this is my view is this on, and here's the reasons why I see it this way," agreeing with a lot of casino shift managers on this.

I also discussed that people may give a "to the ends of the earth" defense of each position including AP devotees, but saying that I was name calling or baiting instead of debating is not true. I just hold a counter-position on this.


No I debate points, some of which may hurt sacred cow Point-of-views held that some hold dear; however, this does not constitute personal insult, and I regret you feel offended.


I have no personal grudge against you or anyone here at all, really, I have no bad feelings for anyone, and I have positive feelings for many. you're fine in my book, really. When I debate and disagree with a point, and give my reasons why, I state arguments on the topic with no bad feelings about the person holding a counter argument. When some of my gaming mathematicians are in town (who are dyed/died-in-the-wool AP players), we gamble at craps and UTH and have dinner, no issues at all. I'm designing a game with an AP player, and it doesn't matter.


I don't mention you, discuss you or think about you, really; I only discuss the merits and especially the demerits of AP play and its milieu as a gaming related topic to debate, which I feel is defended by AP in an "Us against the World" all-costs fashion. I both support and attack arguments and positions relating to gaming and casino operations, but I do not slander to praise people by name (or threaten to sue them), although I may praise a game design by a person's forum handle. I even go so far as to truncate the anonymous handle to "AW," "Rig," etc., BH may be taking a shot, (he was) but it may be just jealousy.


I'm not accusing you personally of presenting AP lifestyle as a jet-setting realm; I know it isn't also, as it's about money management skills and technique development and implementation, dry stuff it can be argued.


I can see that. I can also see it as a rationale for being a Biker and for many pursuits. We all see that aspect.


Didn't say you had said that; I had only discuss AP "money" in terms of what might be taken from ploppies and business operations in terms of costs, not in jet-setting lifestyles, and it could be small amounts. BH though was taking a shot.


I'm not interested in your personal business affairs and I think this is clear; again, I make arguments for and against AP play and casinos responses to it, and the arguments and rationales for them. Most aren't. Do not feel that people are at a forum.


Share what you want. Let no one, even BH, get you off kilter. I have an interest in arguments and rationales for debate in both AP and casino mindsets on this, I have absolutely no interest in the people or their lives behind the screen name handles, unless I personally know them and like them. I have an interest in gaming, in game design, and game protection, and open discussion of that.


It runs the gamut.


You said something revealing: "I just don't like....." - and not liking certain Point of Views or arguments is part and parcel for a forum discussion, especially if it about things held dear and close to the heart to the reader. But I look at Gaming and AP and design areas coldly with cold subject arguments. And yes, assumptions are made and stated, such as "in terms of loss prevention AP might be viewed as theft of services by the casino, and I can see that...", and "AP practices in some ways is not really gambling as a gambler, as other elements and goals are introduced, and they are...." Presenting all these disagreeing views may be upsetting if holding certain AP-positive views close to heart, and I get that.


ANY undertaking that generates income can be viewed as from the point of view of business ownership and operations. Amway tells it subscribers that they are now "Professional American Business owners." My patent attorney, (who helps me file IP on games that some here had claimed lead to suicide from gambling losses) views his income from me in business terms. For that matter, Al Capone, Pablo Escobar and Griselda Blanco viewed their actions and decisions in terms of business operations. Anything that involves managing a cash producing operation on an on-going basis is a business enterprise.



yes they can indeed.

Dan I have no idea why you responded to something I said to BH. Perhaps you mixed up your accounts today ;-).

I have gotten used to your views on AP no matter how much I disagree. Actually I don't care how right ornwrong yoy are, because AP's are going to AP...no matter what you say or do.

If you are trying to discourage aspiring AP's, GOD BLESS YOU, because the last thing AP need is more Advantage players to compete with or someone new deciding to write books and spread valuable information once they have pulled their few rabbits out their of their hat.

I still kinda think you are hypocritical based on the people you seem to respect it seems to me that you tend to value people who have some kind of public reputation. It's OK if they make AP moves as long as they do other things you feel are are worthy.

I noticed Mike said in his interview he didn't think there was anything noting with hole carding and he would take advantage of that. If I or any other non public AP said that you would call them a cheater without hesitation. You even left Mission off your list of people you mentioned. Does that mean you have I little respect for him?

Quote: TomG

This is where you become so illogical and contradictory that even the casinos completely disagree with you. The casinos has the choice to decline any bet they want. If they accept a bet it is, by definition, allowed. If they were to disallow the technique, the player would have no Advantage.

Yes, if they accept a bet, it is in bona-fide action, and the casino is on the hook to pay winners. But they cannot determine if play is acceptable until they had seen a number of hands, and where the player had already played a number of hands. Then, if play is determined to be unacceptable the player is barred. This does NOT mean if they accept some bets and some play you're grandfathered in. Think about it - you don't get backed off or told to play another game before you play, but only after your play has been seen and determined.

Quote: TG

I'm sure you're going to continue to babble in circles. It's become completely obvious you're only taking this position to try to be annoying because there is no possible way anyone could ever believe such a stupid conclusion: that the casino is somehow choosing to accept bets that they don't want to accept.

The casino accepts bets from players - who are determined to be fine unless otherwise (and later) discovered to be AP-ing, where they may later back them off.
Look, they can't examine your play until you've played some hands. Just because you've played for an hour doesn't mean they'd let you AP at length, their call. Exactly how hard is that to understand.

Quote: AxelWolf

If you are trying to discourage aspiring AP's, GOD BLESS YOU, because the last thing AP need is more Advantage players to compete with or someone new deciding to write books and spread valuable information once they have pulled their few rabbits out their of their hat.

I also view less as more, but here until gaming is pure gambling and nothing else.

Quote: AW

I still kinda think you are hypocritical based on the people you seem to respect it seems to me that you tend to value people who have some kind of public reputation. It's OK if they make AP moves as long as they do other things you feel are are worthy.

People may do and try what they want at the tables in real life, again, I judge AP as a negative, not the AP-ers, as many I authentically like. In any personal relationship, I don't care how they play as long as they don't negatively affect my gambling. This is different.

Quote: AW

I noticed Mike said in his interview he didn't think there was anything noting with hole carding and he would take advantage of that. If I or any other non public AP said that you would call them a cheater without hesitation. You even left Mission off your list of people you mentioned. Does that mean you have I little respect for him?

I like Mission a lot, met him, discussed things with him, he's fine in my book. People may do things I disagree with or think are negative, but that doesn't affect my affection for them if I like them. If Mike doesn't think anything is wrong with hole carding and I do, so what, that doesn't impact our friendship or any business dealings. I know people who like foods I think are revolting, (certain Pacific seafood delicacies that look like large cockroaches), and it doesn't affect us. I don't eat with them, but aside from that no effect. I don't play blackjack with AP players when I do play, but will play craps with them, and have done so. If people don't dislike me aside from my views, I don't dislike them. I know happily married couples whose political views are as different as Slobodan Milosevic and Susan Sarandon, and that's saying something.

Quote: Paigowdan

Then, if play is determined to be unacceptable the player is barred.

Once the casino's do that, there is no more Advantage Play. Proving it really doesn't circumvent their fees

Quote: Paigowdan

Just because you've played for an hour doesn't mean they'd let you AP at length, their call.

Just because someone has played with an Advantage for many hours doesn't mean they'll be backed off. It's their call to make. The very fact that Advantage Play even exists proves that they think it is often times acceptable. Obviously that's too difficult for you to understand.