Getting backed off / 86'd / barred / restricted / etc for winning
Quote: AxelWolfI'm tired of people (actually it's just you) trying to compare casinos to figgin Disneyland. The next thing you know you'll be comparing it to a church(Actually church is probably worst in some cases).
You're mistaken. I said they that a) provide gambling services and they are b) entitled to their house edge fee. That's different from what you're thinking inside your head and saying here. As for the church, it is AP that's a religion to be defended at all costs and arguments.
Quote: AWYou claim casinos are reasonable entertainment destinations providing a service. That's complete BULL CRAP!They are there to suck as much money out of their customers pockets as much possible.
No they're not. They provide reasonable and optional gambling services that most gamblers enjoy. In fact just today I played a few hours of EZ Pai Gow Poker at the Cannery and two hours of Wild 5 Poker/Poker with a Joker at Green Valley Ranch. Up $100 over $500 in buy ins and everyone was nice, such decent and friendly people and they comped me a steakhouse dinner for me and my wife tomorrow night. All in all, an utterly reasonable and enjoyable day gambling at these reasonable entertainment providers that you view as evil blood-sucking empires that must be stomped under your shoe and die in order to save the world from them. Got it.
Quote: AWCASINOS SPONGE OFF PEOPLE a million times more than AP's sponge off the casinos.
They legally steal money(see how many unclaimed tickets people get screwed out of), they have been known to cheat people, hurt people, dupe people, hustle people, intentionally break laws and the list goes on.
Wow....THEY legally steal money as you say. So, can we say here "...but it's LEGAL.......LEGAL, LEGAL, LEGAL, dammit!!" as card counters do when they legally steal money, too, if we're going to look at it in that light. I mean, because it's LEGAL, and not illegal in this case, - then it has to be good and true for them also, right? Or is that argument only for the legal AP players, who don't steal money, as they're just Robin Hoods punishing the evil, greedy people that were so friendly to me today as I made money on them, and got comps. They didn't back me off or anything nor was there any risk of that, either, playing uncountable Pai Gow and Carnival games. What a life. They even said, "Come back real soon, Dan." First name basis with no fear and all that. They didn't seem evil to me. Hmm.
Quote: AWI have pointed out many things about casinos that are in fact evil.
Whoa...there's that word again....
Quote: AWI don't really want to again, because I would be here all day and I would have to listen to your lame attempt at defending them and their dirty deeds.
Didn't see any dirty deeds today. Nor any time I seem to go, which is quite often.
Quote: AWNo, I do NOT think casinos are evil as much as you would like to think. I absolutely DO love casinos. But I wouldn't encourage my friends and family to use them as a good source of gambling entertainment unless they had an advantage or close to it, AND I was certain they wouldn't ever get the gambling bug. Just like I wouldn't suggest anyone use crack for entertainment.
I would indeed use and recommend them as a very fine source of entertainment, along with movies, shows, and fine dining establishments, which casinos seem to have plenty of too, so I can also get the movies, shows, and dining comped, to boot. Such a deal! Now, what I would NOT recommend is advising people to use casinos as a source of AP income (as that seems to make them paranoid and angry about casinos and their purpose), although I would recommend going to dealer's school to join them and get a real job in the industry. I dealt for seven years myself a while ago....
Quote: AWCasino's have many, many flaws and bad practices. They are not as innocent as you're claiming. There's a multitude of stories like this I'll post some interesting up later.
Me and a gazillion other regular Americans seem to not notice this as an issue, and generally have no problem with them as an entertainment outlet.
Quote: AWI'm fairly certain Advantage Players are not the reason for 6:5 Blackjack and 6/5 JOB. There's absolutely ZERO reason to have $5 6/5 JOB. That decision has/had NOTHING to do with AP's. I guarantee you... if all advantage players suddenly disappeared the casinos wouldn't suddenly get rid of 6//5 Video Poker.
Does it really matter? Even if AP was not a consideration at all, (which is not the case, as game protection is indeed a factor in game selection decisions), then just consider 6:5's added game protection features as just an additional and wonderful bonus or benefit of them.
Quote: AW6:5 Blackjack was probably originally suggested by some Darksider. The Casino's seen a short term rise in profits and got greedy.
If you truly believe 6:5 is directly related to AP's then the casinos and whomever is suggesting, advocating and allowing it should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.
Why?
Quote: AWBasically THEY have made a decision to prey on and rape the uneducated, ignorant, weak and blind customers they so desperately need, just to foil AP's. It's like shaving your wife's hair off because some handsome, smart guy looked at her, just to teach him a lesson and make sure he doesn't look at her anymore.
Exactly like that??!! Then Thank God we got generous and magnanimous AP teams to kick their evil butts and straighten their sorry #sses out.
Quote: IbeatyouracesLet's not have another 20 page thread about this please.
Past the 20 page mark now, lol.
Double or nothing, Ibeatyouraces?
Quote: blackholeReading through threads like this one is a perfect chance to expose the myths of the AP.
Yes, the MIT team and numerous other counters had a good run for 20 years, but since early 2000 to the current; casinos are now able to pick off and rid AP’s like target practice with all games.
The same goes today for online casinos. If anyone thinks they could beat any online casino today for any period of time is living a bigger pipe dream then B&M AP’s.
Anyone could hit a casino with a life changing win. But, the same groups of people here talk over and over again about your gifted mathematical genius that enables you to constantly get away with beating the games.
I know in your world of gambling these conversations and feather fluffing is all that really matters to you, and must help you continue on your path to eventual destruction.
Look at one of your top posters here AXELWOLF. This guy posted in 4 years 10K posts. That’s 2,500 posts a year, trying to convince everyone that he is the master of AP’s. This guy is always ahead of every opportunity that shows it face in any casino, B&M or online. Of course he can’t reveal any of his plays, because he and the special group of people here are smarter than most everyone else that ever gambled. You guys should only realize how ridiculous all your posts look to most people that stumble onto this site, and others like it.
What’s said here is only important to the same group or club of people here that feed off of each others nonsense.
If you like to gamble there is nothing wrong with learning how to get the most bangs for your buck. But, to base your future on the flip of an unknown card or on the hopes of freezing the RNG on that precise millisecond is absurd to even consider.
Yea, I know, go ahead and fire away with the same ole justifications. I’m sure my reality post is not wanted here and I’ll be banned.
Oh yea, I already know that I am a losing degenerate gambler, so no need to carry on about it.
Seeing as I benefit greatly (and many others) from axelwolfs information and knowledge I'd say he's pretty much up there in the tiers of AP. Maybe the posts sound outlandish to an amateur but trust me we have done very well. I have not had a job since 2014 because we make money exclusively from AP. Also I don't care if you believe me or not. As they say in the interwebs "pics or gtfo"
Quote: Paigowdan...they are b) entitled to their house edge fee...
No they aren't. There aren't entitled to anything.
Quote: darkozPast the 20 page mark now, lol.
Double or nothing, Ibeatyouraces?
I have nothing to double :-)
Seriously though, these debates are tiring and just reading them makes me sick.
Quote: PaigowdanNo they're not. They provide reasonable and optional gambling services that most gamblers enjoy. In fact just today I played a few hours of EZ Pai Gow Poker at the Cannery and two hours of Wild 5 Poker/Poker with a Joker at Green Valley Ranch. Up $100 over $500 in buy ins and everyone was nice, such decent and friendly people and they comped me a steakhouse dinner for me and my wife tomorrow night. All in all, an utterly reasonable and enjoyable day gambling at these reasonable entertainment providers that you view as evil blood-sucking empires that must be stomped under your shoe and die in order to save the world from them. Got it.
You were able to enjoy playing the games as the were offered based on the thoughts inside your own head. When you do it it's how it's supposed to be. When some other people do it, it's against some rules you think the casino's should have, but don't. Nice combination of Illogic, contradictons, and cognitive dissonance. There's a reason even the casino's themselves disagree with almost all of you position on Advantage Play.
Quote: djatcSeeing as I benefit greatly (and many others) from axelwolfs information and knowledge I'd say he's pretty much up there in the tiers of AP. Maybe the posts sound outlandish to an amateur but trust me we have done very well. I have not had a job since 2014 because we make money exclusively from AP. Also I don't care if you believe me or not. As they say in the interwebs "pics or gtfo"
Idk if I believe you...pm everything you know to prove it ;)
Quote: TomG
You were able to enjoy playing the games as the were offered based on the thoughts inside your own head. When you do it it's how it's supposed to be.
Tom - You said something interesting here, "When you do it it's how it's supposed to be." The way I think of it, (particularly because gaming is supposed to be an enhancing recreation), is more like "When you do, it is how nice it's [gambling] supposed to be." Today I had a series of wonderful, hassle-free gambling sessions that flowed, where I had fun and ended up slightly ahead. As far as I'm concerned, this is how it is supposed to be, There was no issue or resentment playing with a house edge, no view of the dealer or the casino as some evil enemy to be vanquished, no worries about time, bankroll, or how much I must leave with to make my living, just me and the cards and strategy, and things worked and flowed.
To many gambling like this seems utterly unhealthy and weird, "not the way it's supposed to be/it doesn't happen like that." To me, this seem healthy and the way it is supposed to be. I and a million other people are called radical or ignorant ploppies for having the nerve to have these positive gambling experiences without resorting to AP to obtain them, or any of the hassles or rationalizations associated with AP. So I disagree.
Quote: TomGWhen some other people do it, it's against some rules you think the casino's should have, but don't.
On this, if the casino backs you off or kicks you out when you're feeling they have no right to do so, or that there were no such rules when there clearly were indeed - and also acted on to expel you, - then this is the dissonance and denial that I see. In other words, the casinos really do have these game protection rules and they really do act on them in the real world as the need arises. If others want to deny this because of feelings that "it shouldn't BE this way," that's their dissonance they're denying. I'm saying that not only should it be this way, but that it really is this way.
In my casino gaming career, I've seen the rules and the photographs of AP players to look for before my shift, and then I see them backed off and expelled from the property, so how in the world can I share the AP denial that these game protection rules and actions do not exist, or are not acted upon, or shouldn't be there? I can't. I know that they are there, that they are acted upon, and are supposed to be there for loss prevention reasons. We all know of, see, and complain about the back offs, ejections, and flat betting that happen, so how exactly can this be denied?
Quote: TomGNice combination of Illogic, contradictons, and cognitive dissonance. There's a reason even the casino's themselves disagree with almost all of you position on Advantage Play.
If this were true, there would be no back offs, 86-ing, cover plays, and camouflage to notice, experience, or complain about. They not only agree with it, they do it, and AP's either complain about it or deny it.
To get back to basics:
TomG: "You were able to enjoy playing the games as the were offered based on the thoughts inside your own head. When you do it it's how it's supposed to be."
You enjoy playing the game more when the real world actions and the cooperation of the casino match the thoughts inside your head and the behaviors you exhibit - in accordance with, and with some harmony with the casino. This is how it's supposed to be to work well.
If the thoughts inside your head (and your behaviors) are "I can do whatever the hell I want with AP and 'f' the casinos" and their words and actions are "Buddy, you're done for the night, goodbye," this is the dissonance and denial and things to complain about on the boards.
Thanks DJ. I'm surrounded by good friends and people I like. I'm doing something I enjoy and have fun doing it. I thank god I'm not digging ditches or parking you Miata. My parents and GF are proud of me and support what I do.Quote: djatcSeeing as I benefit greatly (and many others) from axelwolfs information and knowledge I'd say he's pretty much up there in the tiers of AP. Maybe the posts sound outlandish to an amateur but trust me we have done very well. I have not had a job since 2014 because we make money exclusively from AP. Also I don't care if you believe me or not. As they say in the interwebs "pics or gtfo"
I don't think I'm anywhere near the top tier, there are many people smarter, there's guys that have worked harder and smarter, there's many that have made much, much more than I have. I have my strengths and weaknesses.
There's no need for anyone to respond to this guy. I'm not going to be baited into proving something for nothing just to shut someone up or because I need to prove something. People will believe what they want. If they believe wrong it's possibly their loss. I'm still going to do my thing.
I have called people out on stuff myself especially betting systems and outrageous claims. Anything I claim I can reasonably prove if necessary I'm certain I haven't made any outrageous claims.
If he wants to put his money where his mouth is I'm willing to negotiate some terms and put up a significant amount of cash and provide sufficient evidence.
Exactly.Quote: mcallister3200Idk if I believe you...pm everything you know to prove it ;)
Quote: AxelWolfweaknesses
You'd have more money than God if you'd stop misplacing slot tickets ;)
Quote: RogerKintYou'd have more money than God if you'd stop misplacing slot tickets ;)
Great Sig. How did ice cube go from the don mega to are we there yet?
Quote: TomGThey can protect themselves against all Advantage Play if they wanted to. Any casino could eliminate the ability for any player to make any bet with an edge today. They just choose not to do so. Because they make that choice, they are making it clear to everyone in the world (except for one person) that they are perfectly fine with it and welcome it.
I disagree. The casino sets the parameters of the game to maximize profits over the long term (I.e. they want you to come back). In many cases, the sweet spot for a game has AP opportunities. Why do you believe they are okay with it? This point has not been answered in this thread yet...I do not accept it as obvious.
For example, if all ties lost in BJ, this would radically increase the HE, but actually cause the casinos to make less money from BJ. Therefore, they don't makt that rule change. As a result, they have to watch out for AP in BJ.
The casinos love you as you are a lifetime loser (read that as gambling loser, I am sure in the toils of day to day life you do well - you have to in order to finance your gambling habit). The casinos know that they are making money off you.
The AP's love you because we know that without you and others like you, we would not be able to make money either. You finance our endeavors as the money you willingly and quite happily give to the casinos, a small chunk of that winds up in our pocket.
This seems to irk you. I understand. It seems to raise the price of your entertainment when anti-AP measures destroy promos or raise HE on established games, etc.
To the AP, the disconnect is that we don't care if you are a loser small or a loser big. For an analogy, in a horse race, no one argues about how the fifth losing horse was better than the seventh losing horse. We don't care. We only care about the first three which were winners.
The AP's on here see you as one of the losing horses. How big you lose due to anti-AP tactics is irrelevant. You are a losing lifetime gambler. You are one of the losing horses.
Perhaps in a more disturbing manner, you are happy to be one of the losing horses. You have come to the viewpoint that you are paying for happiness by losing. The act of gambling itself makes you feel good (this is not a put-down - if it didn't make you feel good -- and based on the HE and your insistence on playing by the rules you must be a lifetime loser -- then I am sure you would not gamble) but to AP's it is winning that feels good.
In most "friendly games" both sides usually agree to the rules AND the rules remain the same for all players. In Chess, Grandmasters are not told they cannot play because they are too skillful (there may be tournaments or beginner contests they are precluded from but you know what I mean) they are not run out of town because they have a skillset that allows them to win most of the time.
Casinos set their own rules, change their rules, and preclude certain people (read that winners) from playing. And that irks the people who don't play to have fun by losing but those of us who play to win.
I'm just curious Dan, if you had been lucky enough to play with Phil Ivey when he was edge sorting Baccarat and you overheard that the next card was a nine because he saw the card edge sorted, you had a large bet opposite Phil and now knew you were going to almost certainly lose, would you keep your bet on blithely ignoring the situation? Would you switch it so you could win? Would you simply take the bet off and not wager -- because that too would be a form of AP.
(I certainly hope your answer is not to announce to the dealer that Phil Ivey is edge sorting and the rest of the table should play a fair game of losing -- you are really going to PO a bunch of AP's on here if that one is your answer.)
Quote: MBI disagree. The casino sets the parameters of the game to maximize profits over the long term (I.e. they want you to come back). In many cases, the sweet spot for a game has AP opportunities. Why do you believe they are okay with it? This point has not been answered in this thread yet...I do not accept it as obvious.
For example, if all ties lost in BJ, this would radically increase the HE, but actually cause the casinos to make less money from BJ. Therefore, they don't makt that rule change. As a result, they have to watch out for AP in BJ.
yes, I agree with you. They tow a fine line between not pissing off their bread and butter and trying to eliminate AP's. It is one of the wonderful things (to us) about doing business with them.
What hasn't been answered is that both AP's and casinos see gambling the same way - i.e. we are in it to make money. The casinos would prefer to have players only be like Dan who is not interested in making money but handing it over in return for an exhilarating experience.
To an AP, a "game" is one where both sides are attempting to win. So, that is what we do.
I know Dan will argue he always attempts to win. That is like trying to leap over a thirty foot wall with no equipment and then stating that he always makes the attempt. And then gets mad when he sees someone with a ladder and rope actually succeed. He wants to claim we are cheating when we are just doing the intelligent thing and making certain we win.
Quote: AxelWolfThanks DJ.
If he wants to put his money where his mouth is I'm willing to negotiate some terms and put up a significant amount of cash and provide sufficient evidence.
Always seems to be a fellow elite group AP member willing to vouch for another. Now that was a surprise, especially at a site where the only proof of anything ever posted was typed words by another AP member.
Then of course the ole, “put your money where your mouth is and I’ll prove it” tactic shoots out.
I’m not the one spewing how wealthy and successful I am beating up on the ignorant, dumb, incompetent, billion dollar casino owner/operators. I wouldn’t be surprised if sites like this are secretly sponsored by the casinos to gain long term customers that play with wishful thinking. After all, we all know that success in AP’ing can’t be measured quickly.
What amazes me even further is how some of you pro AP members could get away with it day after day, year after year. You’re making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and always one step ahead of the IRS, being banned or identified. How do you guys manage this? Forget about exposing how you can beat the RNG consistently, how about explaining how you get around the IRS, or how you disguise yourself. I mean there are only so many casinos and different shifts that exist. Do you present fake ID every time you have to sign for a big win? My guess is that even this type of information is top secret. (unless of course, I’m willing to put money where my mouth is) Remember, I’m not the one bragging about doing something with no proof … Where could you find a more perfect place to talk shit and not have to prove anything since proving anything would destroy your career.
Should we also assume that when retirement time comes you won’t need no S.S. or pension; since you’ll have invested the millions over the years, or just help yourself to one of the many mattress’s made of cash throughout your mansion.
There was another site where an alleged pro video poker bragged endlessly how smart his play was and how much he won year after year. He then made the mistake of saying his tax returns would reflect his winnings since most of his royals were hit with $5, $25, $50, and some even with $100 play. Well the site owner that knew him in real life, asked him to mail copies of them to his house and he would vouch publicly for him. Well, it obviously never materialized, but it was an entertaining read for months. The excuses were even funnier than his claims. My guess is that his returns would show he paid no taxes, since he’s just a compulsive gambler with even bigger losses.
You guy’s always show pictures of your royals, or stacks of pumpkins, but you never show pictures of the endless $100’s sliding into the machines or hitting the felt.
Here you go
Tell me what it feels like to discover a machine that on 500 dollars spent
You get 6100 in Freeplay -
https://imgur.com/a/xDHR3
Quote: WizardofnothingMaybe we should Just show proof-
Here you go
Tell me what it feels like to discover a machine that on 500 dollars spent
You get 6100 in Freeplay -
https://imgur.com/a/xDHR3
It feels like the cool breeze of a York Peppermint Pattie.
Quote: MBWhy do you believe they are okay with it?
If they weren't ok with it, they would issue a backoff for playing with a negative house advantage, according to Paigowdan.
But AP opportunities happen all of the time: A dealer revealing their cards in BJ or another game. A promotion gone wrong to give a player an advantage. A generous casino with deep penetration and spread on a 3-2 BJ game with lax enforcement. Allowing banking on a no-commission PGP game, collusion, and so on and so forth.
Technology has gotten to the point where counting can be detected and stopped a lot earlier. Axel and Darkoz are way beyond that and can find multiple advantages in multiple casinos using multiple methods. For that they make a living. It's not the living I would choose to make because I have a good job that I enjoy.
Quote: darkozWell, yes!
I cannot tell you how many times I enter a casino and see people on their way out, (total strangers with a seeming common bond) say to me upon entering I should try to win back the money they lost and to sock it to the evil pricks who they just made a sizeable donation too. I always reassure them that I fully intend to win back their money for them. Pretty much all the time they laugh, not realizing that is exactly what I will be doing.
Is it Robin Hood?...
Quote: darkozIt feels like the cool breeze of a York Peppermint Pattie.
I hang out here for the real-life comedy. Reality internet?Quote: gordonm888First, I really admire DarkOz for his ability to "live the dream" and make a living as an AP. Guys like him are the reason I occasionally hang out in this forum.
Quote: PaigowdanIf this were true, there would be no back offs, 86-ing, cover plays, and camouflage to notice, experience, or complain about. They not only agree with it, they do it, and AP's either complain about it or deny it.
Everyone agrees and accepts that backoffs happen. The issue where you are 100% wrong is someone is able to beat the house edge and there is still no backoff. That happens literally millions of times for every one time a backoff happens. And that means that they are playing within the rules, even when their thoughts and ideas are able to help them earn over $100,000 per year playing casino games
Quote: TomGQuote: PaigowdanIf this were true, there would be no back offs, 86-ing, cover plays, and camouflage to notice, experience, or complain about. They not only agree with it, they do it, and AP's either complain about it or deny it.
Everyone agrees and accepts that backoffs happen. The issue where you are 100% wrong is someone is able to beat the house edge and there is still no backoff. That happens literally millions of times for every one time a backoff happens. And that means that they are playing within the rules, even when their thoughts and ideas are able to help them earn over $100,000 per year playing casino games
Millions of times for every one back off? Does someone have any evidence to support this claim?
I think if a casino knew that player XYZ was playing with a significant advantage (e.g. $100k/yr), they would back that player off 100% of the time. But, it takes time to gather enough data to assess the win rate with enough certainty.
The nature of BJ is that players all around the world are playing with an edge every time the TC exceeds 1 (assuming basic strategy and good rules). It's just they are also playing with a HE much worse than "average" when the count is negative. Casinos understand this and are okay with it. Correlating bet size to TC is a different story.
Quote: darkozDan, you are actually the type of player BOTH casinos and AP's truly love.
I know.
Quote: DOzThe casinos love you as you are a lifetime loser (read that as gambling loser, I am sure in the toils of day to day life you do well - you have to in order to finance your gambling habit). The casinos know that they are making money off you.
Yes, within reason, they do - as do the movie houses, steakhouses, music acts/shows,, etc., do also.
I know there's a service fee on everything I use or consume, and I don't try to get out of it as game, sport, or livelihood. I pay my way and I'm totally fine with it. I also get to play without a back off, or specter of a back off.
Quote: DOzThe AP's love you because we know that without you and others like you, we would not be able to make money either. You finance our endeavors as the money you willingly and quite happily give to the casinos, a small chunk of that winds up in our pocket.
I'm glad you said this. And that's right, without me or those like me, you wouldn't have income from AP if AP weren't actually skimming off of us ploppies, basically, - not the casinos per se, or just "the casinos' pocket." The players.
Quote: DOzThis seems to irk you. I understand. It seems to raise the price of your entertainment when anti-AP measures destroy promos or raise HE on established games, etc.
Right, to some degree, not much, as I usually play craps, PGP, Wild 5 Poker, UTH, or an trying out some new game at a field trial. But shouldn't it irk people a bit? I mean, it's like going to Costco and being told, "this bottle of Tide detergent is $12 to buy, not $9, because of pilferage/theft losses and skimming, and we even allow it because we were told it help generate business to allow some skimming."
Quote: DOzTo the AP, the disconnect is that we don't care if you are a loser small or a loser big. For an analogy, in a horse race, no one argues about how the fifth losing horse was better than the seventh losing horse. We don't care. We only care about the first three which were winners.
I know you don't care who the losers are, which is to say who pays for AP in the end. You don't care as you can't care, because if you did, you be a fool to be bothered by it. In other words, you have to have a disconnect, else you'd have dissonance, and any argument that gives a disconnect has to be welcomed and used ("It's Us versus the evil empire," "It's LEGAL, dammit! Right?", "If the table doesn't say "No card counting or AP allowed, then it HAS to be sanctioned and okay to do!" and"The evil and greedy casino owner has to live in a slightly smaller mansion, now, Yes!" etc.) I get the disconnect angle, but I connect the dots having worked in the business for "the dark (evil) side."
Quote: DOzThe AP's on here see you as one of the losing horses. How big you lose due to anti-AP tactics is irrelevant. You are a losing lifetime gambler. You are one of the losing horses.
Yes and no. I am also arguably a financial loser because my home purchase was -EV (I had to buy it to live in it), my show tickets are -EV (I had to buy them to enjoy the show), my grocery food is -EV (I had to buy it to eat it, though a lot of dining is comped), my car is -EV because I had to buy it to drive it, etc.
It's not just the price or a game of forcing "rebates" on a purchase, - if I agree to the price I pay it, and look at the utility of its use or the overall experience and peace of mind I'll get with it.
Quote: DOzPerhaps in a more disturbing manner, you are happy to be one of the losing horses.
Yeah, in the sense that if I agree to a price (like I'd agree to play 6:5), I'm saying the price is fine, and I then look to its use and experience for me in my life, which is really what counts. If it works for me, I do it, as do we all. Yesterday I spent the afternoon gambling, playing PGP and Poker with a Joker/Wild 5 poker. East Side Cannery and Green Valley Ranch. I ended up ahead and got comped, no blackjack involved. Maybe I didn't play BJ because of CSMs or 6:5 (not the case), or I played because in general I prefer poker based games and craps (which was the case). I never play roulette and play more Bacc than BJ. The same casino pit made it's action and buy-in quotas regardless of what game I chose, and more of the pit is not blackjack than other games, and what is blackjack is mostly 6:5 and CSMs.
But I also get some comps and I also occasionally fight for some good deals without AP.
Quote: DOzYou have come to the viewpoint that you are paying for happiness by losing. The act of gambling itself makes you feel good (this is not a put-down - if it didn't make you feel good -- and based on the HE and your insistence on playing by the rules you must be a lifetime loser -- then I am sure you would not gamble) but to AP's it is winning that feels good.
No, I have come to the conclusion that what I choose to buy - straight up - is what makes me happy, without any subterfuge or concealed maneuvers in the process. Gambling is a pleasurable recreation, and I treat it as such, nothing more, and winning makes me feel good. But if winning is what makes APs feel good, then they'd be satisfied with it by un-manipulated chance, like on a crap game or straight-up poker game. It's not the juice from gambling that AP-ers seek, but the maneuvers above gambling that they can get away with in a cat-and-mouse fashion that's their juice.
Quote: DOzIn most "friendly games" both sides usually agree to the rules AND the rules remain the same for all players. In Chess, Grandmasters are not told they cannot play because they are too skillful (there may be tournaments or beginner contests they are precluded from but you know what I mean) they are not run out of town because they have a skillset that allows them to win most of the time.
Agree on the rules. But Card Counters aren't backed off or 86-ed because they're too skillful or awesome or beautiful like a Chess Grandmaster or something. They're backed off on the basis of whether they're counting cards or not. And it's not having a skillset or not. You can use an accountancy skillset for helping your employer, or to embezzle from your employer. It's what you actually do, not what you were thinking or what you have as a skill set. Game Play Behavior at the table is considered.
As for the rules on AP, they're simply known, and cover plays and disguises show that they're known (as they're only used to conceal what is known and forbidden), as would using card counting to the point of ejection also show this fact.
No signs are needed. The co-developer of Wild 5 Poker is a retired anesthesiologist, and boy did he have to safeguard the medicine locker he was responsible for from some nurses and orderlies, what, with all that pharmaceutical grade morphine, Dilaudid, etc. There was even pharmaceutical cocaine (as a scalp anesthetic for brain surgery) and Ketamine (a very effective surgical anesthetic with very little cardiac/respiratory surgery risk), as he was telling me. Did he have to put signs on the locker that said "There is no stealing or AP-ing of these meds, or else you'll get 86-ed out of your job with even worse penalties!" And no nurse caught with the hand in the cookie jar could say "Where is it written that I can't DO this - so THAT makes it okay to do, right! Aha! Yeah!"
Quote: DOzCasinos set their own rules, change their rules, and preclude certain people (read that winners) from playing.
Don't like the rules or can't abide by them, then you're not bound to play. Go bowling or something.
Quote: DOzAnd that irks the people who don't play to have fun by losing but those of us who play to win.
Yes it does irk you, as they are imposing restrictions upon you sponging off of them and the ploppies, and as your chosen career path. And you asked me earlier (above) if it irks me because I have to play more - as I finance this through my honest play. I guess AP play gives some irk-ing to all sides. What a beneficial narrative AP play is for all.
Quote: DOzI'm just curious Dan, if you had been lucky enough to play with Phil Ivey when he was edge sorting Baccarat and you overheard that the next card was a nine because he saw the card edge sorted, you had a large bet opposite Phil and now knew you were going to almost certainly lose, would you keep your bet on blithely ignoring the situation? Would you switch it so you could win? Would you simply take the bet off and not wager -- because that too would be a form of AP.
I have actually played out hands that I knew I'd lose. I was once playing Three Card Poker and I played a KJ5 hand after the very sloppy dealer flashed a bottom Ace. What was I going to do, snatch back a quarter Ante on a hand I would have legitimately lost anyway? No, I played it, but I was annoyed and told the dealer that she had an Ace-high before she played it, and that she needs to not flash as she deals, because she could lose her job. She got it.
Quote: DOz(I certainly hope your answer is not to announce to the dealer that Phil Ivey is edge sorting and the rest of the table should play a fair game of losing -- you are really going to PO a bunch of AP's on here if that one is your answer.)
No. But I would do what I normally do, which is to take out my player's card at the other end of the pit to look like I'll be requesting a comp, and when the floorman arrives, I tell him the situation. In this case, I'd tell them that "you morons are also going to be in the news." I have also given Pai Gow Poker dealers the correct hand setting (to set 10-6/A2345 as A-10/65432), and with black action on the table - including mine to lose. And the other play actually said, "Yeah, that IS the correct hand setting, we'll win the next hand" - instead of "I want to bust a cap into your #ss." Surveillance would have later called down wayway, and it avoided a scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au0zM3I_p3w
Quote: MBThe nature of BJ is that players all around the world are playing with an edge every time the TC exceeds 1 (assuming basic strategy and good rules). It's just they are also playing with a HE much worse than "average" when the count is negative. Casinos understand this and are okay with it. Correlating bet size to TC is a different story.
Sure, casinos understand this. It's when you try to excessively capitalize on it that they may have an issue.
Quote: ernestmiddleM E on a prior thread said most successful AP could succeed in the business world if they focused their talents there. Truer words were never spoken. But this is the life they have chosen. Peoples make choices. There is a successful game inventor here who quit a career as a programmer to become a dealer, of all things.
Me. Not an easy business on this side, either.
Quote: earnestmiddleA dealer quit to work for SHFL once he found out the casinos were paying a royalty for the game he was dealing. No idea what happened to him, probably not a SNOWball's chance in hell, he succeeded. But that is the life he chose.
Don't know who this guy is, but if it's whom I think it is, he's doing all right as a games salesman.
Quote: earntestmiddle
+1. How many times have we heard Al Pacino say "I was trying to make one last score and then fly right, clean - BUT THEY/IT KEEPS PULLING ME BACK....." Carlito's way, etc.
Edit: Here's Al Pacino: "JUST when I thought I was out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN!" Godfather version, not Carlito's way version.
I 100% agree.Quote: Paigowdan
Exactly like that??!! Then Thank God we got generous and magnanimous AP teams to kick their evil butts and straighten their sorry #sses out.
A dealer quit to work for SHFL once he found out the casinos were paying a royalty for the game he was dealing. No idea what happened to him, probably not a SNOWball's chance in hell, he succeeded. But that is the life he chose.
Don't know who this guy is, but if it's whom I think it is, he's doing all right as a games salesman.
Maybe Or he could be living in mom's basement, playing video games like PACMAN. You just never know. Last time I was in Vegas I saw a street performer riding an unicycle. Looked a lot like a Baltimoron I knew who quit a job as an actuary at Social Security to start a website in Vegas, of all things. I lost track of him but heard he got fired from a big casino a few years ago. Wondered if it was same guy, but did not want to embarrass him. I mean he was riding a unicycle ? ? ?
Quote: blackholeWow ... You guys are even further out there then I initially thought. Just pay attention to these discussions. Example, "for every AP that gets backed off a million others are capable of making over a 100k per year". Is any reasonable thought even given before you guys start typing numbers that could only be coming from the dark matter in space?
More like one in a million that can drag down 6 figures, if that. but still lots of guys doing what they want, often supplementing a straight paycheck while mixing pleasure with business.
Quote: MBMillions of times for every one back off? Does someone have any evidence to support this claim?
A good video poker player can make up to 1000 bets per hour, if the best ones weren't able to last at least 1000 hours in between backoffs, they would have moved on to something else.
1000 x 1000 = one million
Weaker players might only be doing 500 hands per hour, but sometimes lasting much longer, perhaps indefinitely, between backoffs.
Quote: MBI think if a casino knew that player XYZ was playing with a significant advantage (e.g. $100k/yr), they would back that player off 100% of the time. But, it takes time to gather enough data to assess the win rate with enough certainty.
Very few who earn over six figures is earning anywhere near that from any one casino. It's much more typical to spread that out around dozens of places.
Quote: ernestmiddleQuote: earnestmiddle
A dealer quit to work for SHFL once he found out the casinos were paying a royalty for the game he was dealing. No idea what happened to him, probably not a SNOWball's chance in hell, he succeeded. But that is the life he chose.
Don't know who this guy is, but if it's whom I think it is, he's doing all right as a games salesman.
Maybe Or he could be living in mom's basement, playing video games like PACMAN. You just never know. Last time I was in Vegas I saw a street performer riding an unicycle. Looked a lot like a Baltimoron I knew who quit a job as an actuary at Social Security to start a website in Vegas, of all things. I lost track of him but heard he got fired from a big casino a few years ago. Wondered if it was same guy, but did not want to embarrass him. I mean he was riding a unicycle ? ? ?
I sense a NUKE coming.
"Don't like the rules or can't abide by them, then you're not bound to play. Go bowling or something."
No, actually I will just go back in and continue to raise your prices by AP'ing. If you don't like the rules I play by, you are welcome to go bowling instead. Don't like the cost of gambling because of AP's no one is forcing you to gamble either.
The casinos feel it's them vs us as much as we feel its us vs. them. The only real difference is they are Goliath and we are plain David (hint: David actually wins in the classic story.)
Quote: ernestmiddleQuote: earnestmiddle
A dealer quit to work for SHFL once he found out the casinos were paying a royalty for the game he was dealing. No idea what happened to him, probably not a SNOWball's chance in hell, he succeeded. But that is the life he chose.
Don't know who this guy is, but if it's whom I think it is, he's doing all right as a games salesman.
Maybe Or he could be living in mom's basement, playing video games like PACMAN. You just never know. Last time I was in Vegas I saw a street performer riding an unicycle. Looked a lot like a Baltimoron I knew who quit a job as an actuary at Social Security to start a website in Vegas, of all things. I lost track of him but heard he got fired from a big casino a few years ago. Wondered if it was same guy, but did not want to embarrass him. I mean he was riding a unicycle ? ? ?
I don't mean to be a BUZZkill, but you're NODUMMY, you know you can't say these types of things if you want to keep your account. ;)
Quote: darkozDan said:
"Don't like the rules or can't abide by them, then you're not bound to play. Go bowling or something."
No, actually I will just go back in and continue to raise your prices by AP'ing. If you don't like the rules I play by, you are welcome to go bowling instead. Don't like the cost of gambling because of AP's no one is forcing you to gamble either.
The casinos feel it's them vs us as much as we feel its us vs. them. The only real difference is they are Goliath and we are plain David (hint: David actually wins in the classic story.)
I'm curious how the casinos are raising prices because of AP's. Casinos are raising prices, but I think it has more to do with economics (e.g. supply/demand, what the market will bear).
That's absolutely absurd and requires a big imagination.Quote: blackholeI wouldn’t be surprised if sites like this are secretly sponsored by the casinos to gain long term customers that play with wishful thinking.
Perhaps AP isn't possible in that case Dan and the casinos have nothing to worry about. I agree they have nothing to worry about in regards to AP. They should be spending their time and resources watching for employee theft and guys who are marking cards, switching in and out dice, edge sorting, rigging slot machines etc etc.
Show me where I have claimed how wealthy or successful I am?Quote: blackholeI’m not the one spewing how wealthy and successful I am beating up on the ignorant, dumb, incompetent, billion dollar casino owner/operators..
You must give a SS number to match and people oftentimes hit multiple jackpots in the same casinos year after year. They oftentimes know who you are. Some places actually verify that everything actually matches up before you get you're jackpots.Quote: blackholeDo you present fake ID every time you have to sign for a big win?
Please show me where I have ever posted a picture on this forum, or claimed to make any specific amount of money.Quote: blackholeYou guy’s always show pictures of your royals, or stacks of pumpkins, but you never show pictures of the endless $100’s sliding into the machines or hitting the felt.
I think you have me confused with someone else or you're just assuming a whole lot of stuff.
It's obviously you don't understand or know how AP works. For instance you talk about beating RNG's I have never claimed I could beat a RNG. You'll have to talk to people who claim they can. I normally disregard that type of claim and consider it bunk(however I'm sure it's happened).
Regarding a wager I'm willing to bet I can invest a specific amount of money on a gambling endeavor that produces more money than I started with. It wouldn't end my career because there's more than one way to skin a cat. I may expose a play however I would make sure whatever bet made was significantly more than the play is worth and something that doesn't really matter, or find a way as to have an independent person verify everything and keep the information confidential.
But you're right i'm not going to sit and be baited into exposing everything to you and be trying to prove myself or something publicly just to satisfy you or anyone. I doubt you have enough money to cover all the people it could hurt.
I'm not trying to sell a system or convince people like you, so if you think AP is bunk that's fine. I just wish you could convince the casinos it's bunk because for some reason they have an entirely different view.
According to Dan, that's how.Quote: MBI'm curious how the casinos are raising prices because of AP's. Casinos are raising prices, but I think it has more to do with economics (e.g. supply/demand, what the market will bear).
According to Dan, that's how.Quote: MBI'm curious how the casinos are raising prices because of AP's. Casinos are raising prices, but I think it has more to do with economics (e.g. supply/demand, what the market will bear).
Quote: CrystalMathI don't mean to be a BUZZkill, but you're NODUMMY, you know you can't say these types of things if you want to keep your account. ;)
Oh, Mike has a sense of humor. But will that z fella, yet to see his. Other than the PITA remark. That was kinda funny
Quote: AWPerhaps AP isn't possible in that case Dan and the casinos have nothing to worry about. I agree they have nothing to worry about in regards to AP. They should be spending their time and resources watching for employee theft and guys who are marking cards, switching in and out dice, edge sorting, rigging slot machines etc etc.
Game protection effort is being focused on treating new games (and some old) in terms of their game protection on the drawing board, not on the floor.
Quote: AxelWolfThat's absolutely absurd and requires a big imagination.
Perhaps AP isn't possible in that case Dan and the casinos have nothing to worry about. I agree they have nothing to worry about in regards to AP. They should be spending their time and resources watching for employee theft and guys who are marking cards, switching in and out dice, edge sorting, rigging slot machines etc etc.
Show me where I have claimed how wealthy or successful I am?
You must give a SS number to match and people oftentimes hit multiple jackpots in the same casinos year after year. They oftentimes know who you are. Some places actually verify that everything actually matches up before you get you're jackpots.
Please show me where I have ever posted a picture on this forum, or claimed to make any specific amount of money.
I think you have me confused with someone else or you're just assuming a whole lot of stuff.
It's obviously you don't understand or know how AP works. For instance you talk about beating RNG's I have never claimed I could beat a RNG. You'll have to talk to people who claim they can. I normally disregard that type of claim and consider it bunk(however I'm sure it's happened).
Regarding a wager I'm willing to bet I can invest a specific amount of money on a gambling endeavor that produces more money than I started with. It wouldn't end my career because there's more than one way to skin a cat. I may expose a play however I would make sure whatever bet made was significantly more than the play is worth and something that doesn't really matter, or find a way as to have an independent person verify everything and keep the information confidential.
But you're right i'm not going to sit and be baited into exposing everything to you and be trying to prove myself or something publicly just to satisfy you or anyone. I doubt you have enough money to cover all the people it could hurt.
I'm not trying to sell a system or convince people like you, so if you think AP is bunk that's fine. I just wish you could convince the casinos it's bunk because for some reason they have an entirely different view.
Really Axel ,you include edge sorting with all those other things that are illegal?
NO I didn't say it was illegal, but if I was a casino I would be worried about stuff like that. Wouldn't you?Quote: HunterhillReally Axel ,you include edge sorting with all those other things that are illegal?
Ok just wanted to clarify.Casinos definitely focus on the wrong things.Quote: AxelWolfNO I didn't say it was illegal, but if I was a casino I would be worried about stuff like that. Wouldn't you?
It might be, it will depend on the laws of the given jurisdiction. From the standpoint of public policy, what's the difference between a player taking advantage of lax procedure by edge sorting and a player taking advantage of lax procedure by thumb nicking?Quote: HunterhillReally Axel ,you include edge sorting with all those other things that are illegal?
Does anyone know if edge sorting has been prosecuted in Nevada, regardless of whether the dealer was in on it or otherwise?
Quote: MathExtremistIt might be, it will depend on the laws of the given jurisdiction. From the standpoint of public policy, what's the difference between a player taking advantage of lax procedure by edge sorting and a player taking advantage of lax procedure by thumb nicking?
Does anyone know if edge sorting has been prosecuted in Nevada, regardless of whether the dealer was in on it or otherwise?
It'll come to a point where players won't be able to handle the cards in any game.
I said in a post a couple of years ago. Use a solid color for card backs.
When I said “I wouldn’t be surprised if sites like this are secretly sponsored by the casinos to gain long term customers that play with wishful thinking”.. you respond.. “That's absolutely absurd and requires a big imagination”. You knew perfectly well what my point was and that comment couldn’t possibly be taken for fact. Your only attempt was to smear the challenger.
I say “I’m not the one spewing how wealthy and successful I am beating up on the ignorant, dumb, incompetent, billion dollar casino owner/operators..” .. you respond.. “Show me where I have claimed how wealthy or successful I am?” Not sure why you felt my post was attacking you only. Your just one part of that whole special group of AP’s on this site who insist their gifted gambling talents are so that they don’t need to be bothered or affiliated with what for most here would be considered the normal mainstreams of life.
Of all the questions I ask, you selectively pick the IRS id question to answer. Here’s what part of that post looked like in its whole while I was asking about unknown AP tactics. These questions are not just about slot play but all you AP table players also.
“What amazes me even further is how some of you pro AP members could get away with it day after day, year after year. You’re making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and always one step ahead of the IRS, being banned or identified. How do you guys manage this? Forget about exposing how you can beat the RNG consistently, how about explaining how you get around the IRS, or how you disguise yourself. I mean there are only so many casinos and different shifts that exist. Do you present fake ID every time you have to sign for a big win? My guess is that even this type of information is top secret. (unless of course, I’m willing to put money where my mouth is) Remember, I’m not the one bragging about doing something with no proof … Where could you find a more perfect place to talk shit and not have to prove anything since proving anything would destroy your career.
Should we also assume that when retirement time comes you won’t need no S.S. or pension; since you’ll have invested the millions over the years, or just help yourself to one of the many mattress’s made of cash throughout your mansion.”
Yes, I understand you pro AP’s can’t give away the tricks of your trade. After all you have to make a living also. So, I guess my main question is why are you all here posting on a gambling forum? If I wanted to protect my livelihood I certainly wouldn’t be posting thousands of posts a year talking about exactly what I don’t want anyone to know. I wouldn’t find that behavior being a smart way to protect me and my family’s future. Especially, when my jobs income isn’t carved in stone and could dry up at any moment if someone figures out what I’m doing.
Maybe this place is just a place where the career AP’s get to blow smoke up each other’s butts along with showing everyone else how stupid they are for gambling and supporting your fortunes. Not sure why, but I’m reminded of Blackbeard and the pirates error when I come here.
If the reason non-AP's who are capable of it, choose to go into other areas of work for job security, they are highly likely to find that AP is more stable than their own jobs in todays market.
