Spanish word of the day

I suspect you have a typo. The verb creer means "to believe". You meant to use crecer which means "to grow", although I think cultivar is a better choice.

The DRAE defines crecer when said about organic things: "Tomar aumento natural", which makes me think the verb is exclusively for "natural growth", as opposed to "cultivated growth".

Quote: Wizard

Este zanahoria se cree crece cultiva perfectamente. = This carrot was grown perfectly.

"estA Zanahoria se culitivÓ perfectamente."

Your version says "this carrot IS grown..."

You can also say "estA zanahoria CRECIÓ perfectamente." = "This carrot grew perfectly."

I think I brought this up before, but I'm still confused by who exactly is the Virgin Guadalupe. I bring it up today because, as the legend goes, on Dec. 12, 1531 she appeared to a peasant named Juan Diego and asked him to build a church in her honor in that spot, located in Mexico City (sorry I didn't make it there). Lupe, my housekeeper on Tuesdays, says she is the same person as the Virgin Mary. However, if she is the same person, why does she have two names? And how do we know she is the Virgin Mary?

Quote: Wizard

However, if she is the same person, why does she have two names?

It might ease your confussion to know she's not known as la Virgen Guadalupe, but rather la Virgen DE Guadalupe. As far as I know the only "virgin" of consequence in Christianity is Mary.

Quote:

And how do we know she is the Virgin Mary?

Would god's mother lie to you? :P

Quote: Wizard

I think I brought this up before, but I'm still confused by who exactly is the Virgin Guadalupe. I bring it up today because, as the legend goes, on Dec. 12, 1531 she appeared to a peasant named Juan Diego and asked him to build a church in her honor in that spot, located in Mexico City (sorry I didn't make it there). Lupe, my housekeeper on Tuesdays, says she is the same person as the Virgin Mary. However, if she is the same person, why does she have two names? And how do we know she is the Virgin Mary?

She is the same person as Virgin Mary, but the virgin has appeared in many forms over the centuries. Catholics believe in the Assumption of Mary who was taken bodily taking into Heaven at the end of her life. She can appear in different corporeal forms (called likenesses) when needed. The assumption is infallible dogma and cannot be disputed by a Catholic.

Following the Spanish Conquest in 1519–21 a temple of the mother-goddess Tonantzin at Tepeyac outside Mexico City was destroyed and a chapel dedicated to the Virgin built on the site. Newly converted Indians continued to come from afar to worship there. The object of their worship, however, was equivocal, as they continued to address the Virgin Mary as Tonantzin.

But after the Virgin Mary appeared to Juan Diego, and gave him her likeness pressed onto a cloth, the mass conversion of the indigenous people began in earnest. It was the most widespread, and most effective conversion campaign in all of Catholic history.

Quote: Nareed

It might ease your confussion to know she's not known as la Virgen Guadalupe, but rather la Virgen DE Guadalupe.

Okay, thanks, but then where is Guadalupe?

Quote: Wizard

Okay, thanks, but then where is Guadalupe?

One etymology says that Guadalupe, or Guadeloupe was originally a Nahuatl word that, as the legend says, the Virgin Mary said to Juan Diego when he ask her who she was This Aztec word was originally Coatlaxopeuh, which means "The one (female) that defeat the snake".
The actual vision occurred in 1531 and Juan Diego died in 1548 (age 73). He was cannonized in 2002, the first native American to be made a saint.

Another etymology says that Guadalupe was a word that came from Spain. Guadi comes from arabic Wadi وادي which is a dry stream bed. Lupe is from the Latin lupus for wolf. So it means "wolf-river valley". Wolves may have roamed as far south as the Valley of Mexico, but have long since been driven to extinction by human hunters.

Villa de Guadalupe was founded in 1563, 43 years after the conquest. It has long since been absorbed into the Mexico City Federal District urbaniztion. Today it is within the borough of Gustavo A. Madero. It ceased to be called Guadalupe in 1931.

The church is massive, one or possibly the largest churches in the world. It's easy enough to get there by taxi. For any other time of the year besides December, it is an inexpensive place to stay as hotels are built in the vicinity to accommodate pilgrims. If you look on the subway map, on the red line, you will see Villa Guadalupe as one of the stops (northern part of map).

On map software punch in 19° 29.079'N 99° 7.053'W (3.6 air miles from the Zocalo) or closer to 6 miles driving from the airport.

Quote: pacomartin

If you look on the subway map, on the red line, you will see Villa Guadalupe as one of the stops (northern part of map).

Oh, that's where it is! I really had no idea. I mean, I knew it was up north but not where. Of course I'll probably forget it by tomorrow morning...

Quote: Nareed

Oh, that's where it is! I really had no idea. I mean, I knew it was up north but not where. Of course I'll probably forget it by tomorrow morning...

That will be high on my list of places to see when I get the chance to return to Mexico City. Be warned, should you have the misfortune to be my tour guide.

Quote: Wizard

That will be high on my list of places to see when I get the chance to return to Mexico City. Be warned, should you have the misfortune to be my tour guide.

Oh, I don't mind. With my schedule, you'll have ample time to go gallivanting on your own ;)

Fea: chirriar (to screech)
Linda: maestra (teacher)

Ejemplo time.

Mi coche está haciendo un ruido chirriante. = My car is making a screeching noise.

La maestra me preguntó a verme después de la clase. = The teacher asked to see me after class.

Quote: Wizard

Mi coche está haciendo un ruido chirriante. = My car is making a screeching noise.

That's an odd word. I've heard it, but not in years. I can't say whether your example is right or not, but I've never heard anyone describe a noise in their car like that.

Quote:

La maestra me preguntó a verme después de la clase. = The teacher asked to see me after class.

That one's flat out wrong. "preguntar" does mean "ask," but only in the context of asking questions (actually you cannot say "ask questions" in Spanish without making it a pleonasm), not in the sense of making a request. You also don't quite resues to see someone in Spanish.

"La maestra me PIDIÓ wue me quedara despues de la clase" = "The teacher asked me to remain after class."

"La maestra dijo que quiere verme despues de la clase" = "The teacher told me she wants to see me after class."

Quite often English is more sparing of verbiage.

Quote: Nareed

"La maestra me PIDIÓ wue me quedara despues de la clase" = "The teacher asked me to remain after class."

Sólo le pido a Dios
Cubierta por Shakira; cancion de por León Gieco

The English words you are using might possibly be too complex. We can cooperate together. If you stick to basic fundamentals, we will try to integrate together our sentences. Irregardless, we may not be able to entirely eliminate redundant pleonasms.

Hoy es Martes, which means that Lupe came by. Today I asked her about the Virgin de Guadalupe. Lupe was born on Dec. 12, which is why she was named after la Virgin de Guadalupe. She says almost everybody, male and female, born on Dec 12 in Mexico is named Guadalupe. Is this true?

One thing I don't understand is, according to the legend, the Virgin de Guadalupe was a manifestation of the Virgin Mary. However, if this is true, why does it seem to me that she is primarily celebrated in Mexico? I know she appeared in Mexico, but I would think an event of such significance would celebrated by Catholics around the planet.

What is the position of non-Mexican Catholics on her? I've known of Catholics through the years, and not one has ever mentioned her. Hopefully FrG can weigh in on this.

On another topic, Lupe asked me what religion I was and I said "nada." She seemed to not even comprehend how anybody could not believe in god at all, like it was the most radical point of view she had ever encountered.

Quote: Wizard

She says almost everybody, male and female, born on Dec 12 in Mexico is named Guadalupe. Is this true?

No.

Perhaps many people born on that day are given "Guadalupe" as part of their name, but not almost all. I can certainly tell you beyond any doubt you won't find any Mexican Jews with anything even close to that name, even if they were born on Dec. 12th.

Quote: Wizard

One thing I don't understand is, according to the legend, the Virgin de Guadalupe was a manifestation of the Virgin Mary. However, if this is true, why does it seem to me that she is primarily celebrated in Mexico? I know she appeared in Mexico, but I would think an event of such significance would celebrated by Catholics around the planet.

What is the position of non-Mexican Catholics on her? I've known of Catholics through the years, and not one has ever mentioned her. Hopefully FrG can weigh in on this.

On another topic, Lupe asked me what religion I was and I said "nada." She seemed to not even comprehend how anybody could not believe in god at all, like it was the most radical point of view she had ever encountered.

Guadalupe was neither the first nor the last Marian apparition. Before her came The Virgin of Almudena s a medieval icon of the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus Christ. The image is the advocation of the Virgin that serves as a patroness of Madrid, Spain. In France is the famous Lady of Lourdes who revealed herself to Saint Bernadette Soubirous. Our Lady of Fátimais the name given to the Blessed Virgin Mary as she appeared in apparitions reported by three shepherd children at Fátima in Portugal.

Catholics believe they're all the same Virgin Mary and have been deemed "worth of belief". However, because they're private revelations, only those who recieved them are required to believe in them. "Regular" Catholics are not. If they make you uncomfortable, you don't have to pray to her as "Our Lady of Lourdes" or "Our lady of Guadalupe". However, these visions have been deemed acceptable.

Generally, Catholics believe that Mary appears and communicates with the world for the salvation of souls. And that she can change her clothes, title, etc. to match both the time, culture, and specific purpose of her message.

I don't know if there is an official list, but I doubt it. There are dozens of virgins in Mexico alone. There is no official list of saints either, but there are over 10,000 names. I am not sure why there is not a list because the pope must approve a new saint.

I should state that I am not Catholic, so I will be happy to be corrected if I am misrepresent anything.

Our Lady of San Juan de los Lagos gets 7 to 9 million visitors per year (near Guadalajara) and is probably the 2nd most popular virgin in Mexico.


Most, of these virgins have a physical embodiment, a cornstak or wooden statue, or an image imprinted on cloth. In most cases the image was not made by men, but given to someone (often by Mary herself). The virgin in Oaxaca City (Señora de la Soledad) amazingly survived the massive earthquake in the 1920's. Many other of the icons have similar stories of surviving fires, earthquakes, or war. They are all preserved with care since they are very old physical objects. I do not know what is the theology if one of them should be destroyed. I also have never heard of a virgin who made an appearance, and all the statues and paintings are acknowledged to be man made.

Basically, I am not sure if there is a one to one connection between an apparition and a supernaturally crafted physical icon.

Quote: pacomartin

I don't know if there is an official list, but I doubt it. There are dozens of virgins in Mexico alone.

Pero, me gustan listas oficiales. Are you saying all of the dozens of virgins in Mexico are all the Virgin Mary? If so, why is the one from Guadalupe more famous than the others?

I thought the Vatican was supposed to be organized about such things. I'd like to see a list of every confirmed sighting of the Virgin Mary since she died, assuming she did.

Quote: Wizard

Pero, me gustan listas oficiales. Are you saying all of the dozens of virgins in Mexico are all the Virgin Mary? If so, why is the one from Guadalupe more famous than the others?

I thought the Vatican was supposed to be organized about such things. I'd like to see a list of every confirmed sighting of the Virgin Mary since she died, assuming she did.

why is the Virgin of Lourdes more famous than the dozens of Marian apparitions in Europe? Lourdes has more hotel rooms than any other city in France, except Paris?

I thought you would want to see a list, but I don't know of any. Perhaps the father can comment. I would think there would be a list of saints as well.

There is an official list of popes.

Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul. There is some debate about whether she died or not.

====================
Protestant viewpoint:

Mary is an important figure in the bible, and the virgin birth is part of the core beliefs. But the only person in the bible accounts who was assumed into heaven body and soul was Elijah, in the Old Testament. Much of the Catholic beliefs about Mary were acquired centuries after the bible was written. As the worship of goddesses is part of many religions, some skeptics believe that Catholicism simply adopted parts of Goddess religion to Christianity.

Protestants tend to venerate Mary strictly as the mother of Jesus who was chosen for the virgin birth. That is still saying a lot, but it doesn't include the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary upon her death.

Quote: pacomartin

Protestants tend to venerate Mary strictly as the mother of Jesus who was chosen for the virgin birth. That is still saying a lot, but it doesn't include the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary upon her death.

Don't they also differ on whether Mary stayed a virgin after Jesus' birth? Doesn't the bible say Jesus had brothers and sisters? If so, how do Catholics explain their maternity?

Quote: Wizard

Don't they also differ on whether Mary stayed a virgin after Jesus' birth? Doesn't the bible say Jesus had brothers and sisters? If so, how do Catholics explain their maternity?

I think he had four brothers. Catholics believe they were half brothers from a prior marriage of Joseph, or that people confuse the Aramaic or Greek words for brother and cousin, Protestants do not necessarily believe that Mary remained a Virgin her entire life.

You really need to get the father to weigh in. He should be more versed in details than me.

Quote: Wizard

Don't they also differ on whether Mary stayed a virgin after Jesus' birth? Doesn't the bible say Jesus had brothers and sisters? If so, how do Catholics explain their maternity?

Maybe god was in the mood? ;)

Seriously, it's my understanding that Jewish law does allow for divorce. So even if their son (or is it their son of god?) was rewriting the book, Joseph woudl have had reasonable grounds for divorce ahd Mary remained virginal: failure to consumate the marriage.

Unless he was gay and Mary was his "beard." I doubt that would sit well with conservative Christians, but it would be one good thing to say for Mary.

As usual pacomartin does a good job explaining things and I don't have much in the way of corrections to anything he said. There is a list of approved Marian apparitions and an approved list of saints. Both of these lists can be a little daunting and confusing. The list of approved saints is huge but not anywhere near 10,000. Blessed John Paul II canonized 482 saints and 1341 blessed, to put that number in perspective he alone made more saints and blessed than all of the Popes from 1588 combined. The list of the approved Marian Appearances is not as long as you might think as the Church is very careful. I think it might be more helpful and more interesting to look at a more important list which is the Liturgical Calendar of Saints Check it out here .

This list contains the approved liturgical celebrations for the Universal Church and a few particular feasts for the United States. The reason why this list is significantly smaller, containing roughly 178 saints is because it is like the hall of fame list for saints whose lives of holiness and example of love transcend borders and cultures. This list also has been purged of legendary figures and events that could not be historically proven. For example still on the list of saints but not on the liturgical calendar are St. Christopher and one of my favorites and my confirmation namesake, St. George the dragon slayer.

The Marian feast days can be broken into three categories: Life of Mary, Devotional and Appearances, and Misc.
Life of Mary Feasts are: Immaculate Conception, Birth of Mary, Presentation of Mary, Annunciation, Visitation, and Assumption.
Devotional Feasts: Mother of God, Our Lady of the Rosary, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Sorrows, Queenship of Mary, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Immaculate Heart of Mary, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Fatima
Misc. feasts: Sts. Joachim and Anne (parents of Mary), St. Joseph, Dedication of Basilica of St. Mary Major
This means that in my book the major and universally approved Marian apparitions are Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes, and Our Lady of Fatima.
I want to emphasize there are more but these appearances in particular have been studied by the Church, their message found extraordinarily meaningful, and their devotion has spread around the world.

Just my two cents concerning why I love Our Lady of Guadalupe so much and why I think she is so important. Our Lady appeared as a native Mexican and spoke the Aztec language to native Mexican Juan Diego. She did not appear to a Spaniard or speak Spanish. In the midst of great tension between these two cultures of the Aztecs and Spanish Our Lady brought them together into a great people and culture we know today as Mexican. She is the only apparition to appear as pregnant, maybe because she became known as the mother of the Americas. Between 1531 and 1538 eight million native Aztecs and other indigenous people converted to Catholicism. What is also worth pointing out is that across the pond in Europe the reformation was breaking out; as the number of Catholics were being diminished in the sad divisions of Europe the numbers of converts were skyrocketing in Central America. It is as if the Lord said, "Fine you guys want to fight and rip apart my Church over your greed, thirst for power, and pride - I'm outta here and going to see my brothers and sisters in the New World."

The image itself is awesome and if I had to pick one thing that is amazing out of lots of them I would say the beautiful and vibrant image is imprinted on what amounts to a burlap sack of a poor man. Hang up a burlap sack for 30 years and it is going to fall apart, this cloak is now in its 480th year of inspiring the faithful. In my poverty you make me strong, O Lord!

Sorry for the long post and now to make it official - Yo quiero Taco Bell!

Wow, thanks for the post, Padre! That is the kind of post that stands so well on its own that I think deserves the last word on the subject, at least from me.

Quote: FrGamble

In the midst of great tension between these two cultures of the Aztecs and Spanish Our Lady brought them together into a great people and culture we know today as Mexican.

What's so great about violence and corruption? Come on, Mexico has been corrupt throughout history. And the history from Independence to 1921 is riddled with civil wars, including Juarez's little war on your church (which featured an invading French army and a puppet Hapsburg emperor of all things).

Quote:

Between 1531 and 1538 eight million native Aztecs and other indigenous people converted to Catholicism.

You do recall among ther things the Spaniards imported to the New World was the Inquisition, don't you?

Quote: FrGamble

As usual pacomartin does a good job explaining things and I don't have much in the way of corrections to anything he said. There is a list of approved Marian apparitions and an approved list of saints. Both of these lists can be a little daunting and confusing. The list of approved saints is huge but not anywhere near 10,000. Blessed John Paul II canonized 482 saints and 1341 blessed, to put that number in perspective he alone made more saints and blessed than all of the Popes from 1588 combined.

Thank you for your enlightening explanation father. The websites are very helpful as well. My understanding is that the process of sainthood was less systematic in the early days of the church, and that led to some divergent views on the number of Saints.

Since Nareed brought up the Inquisition, let me post one of my favorite stories, about Jesus and The Grand Inquisitor by Feodor Dostoevsky (Translation by H.P. Blavatsky).

Quote: FrGamble

The list of the approved Marian Appearances is not as long as you might think as the Church is very careful.

I went through the list and found mention of these Marian Appearances, if that is the right term.

Feb 11: Our Lady of Lourdes
May 13: Our Lady of Fatima
July 16: Our Lady of Mount Carmel
Sep 15: Our Lady of Sorrows
Oct 7: Our Lady of the Rosary
Dec 12: Our Lady of Guadalupe

Did any of these happen in the United States? Which is the one where a painting of the Virgin Mary at least appears like it is really crying? It seemed this list was intended for American Catholics. Might such a calendar in another country recognize a different list of appearances?

Here is my Spanish sentence, in honor of FrG.

El Señor es mi pastor; no voy a querer. = The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want -- Pslalm 23:1

I didn't know that pastor = shepherd before looking this up. One fun thing about learning Spanish is you learn more about English in the process.

Quote: Wizard

Did any of these happen in the United States? Which is the one where a painting of the Virgin Mary at least appears like it is really crying? It seemed this list was intended for American Catholics. Might such a calendar in another country recognize a different list of appearances?

Here is my Spanish sentence, in honor of FrG.

El Señor es mi pastor; no voy a querer. = The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want -- Pslalm 23:1

I didn't know that pastor = shepherd before looking this up. One fun thing about learning Spanish is you learn more about English in the process.

Our Lady of Good Help had an apparition in 1859.

In 1871, a firestorm killed about 2,000 people. Adele Brise (who had seen the apparition in 1859) refused to leave and instead organized a procession to beg the Virgin Mary for her protection. The surrounding land was completely destroyed, but the chapel and its grounds, together with all the people who had taken refuge there, survived the fire unharmed.It was the worst recorded fire disaster in US history. But the formal recognition is only at the local bishop level, and is not among the list recognized by the Vatican

Most English colonies had official established churches; none of which were Catholic. In fact, some English colonies had anti-Catholic laws and anti-Catholicism was rampant. Maryland was founded by Lord Baltimore as the first 'non-denominational' colony and was the first to tolerate Catholics. In 1650, the Puritans in the colony rebelled and repealed the Act of Toleration. Catholicism was outlawed and Catholic priests were hunted and exiled. By 1658, the rebellion had been suppressed and the Act of Toleration was reinstated.

But a large percentage of the population was not Catholic until the Irish immigration in the mid 19th century. The Irish immigrants being poor and hungry were readily conscripted into the army to fight against Mexico in the Mexican American War. The San Patricios decided their loyalties should lie with Catholic Mexicans, plus the offer of land and wives was very appealing. They were of course killed or executed to the last man by the American army as traitors.

The Chieftans song for the San Patricios

Plaque in Mexico city

Quote: pacomartin

Our Lady of Good Help had an apparition in 1859.

I'm surprised I haven't heard of this before. Here is a quote from their web site:

Quote: Shrine of Our Lady of Good Help

Reading from his decree, the Bishop stated, “I declare with moral certainty and in accord with the norms of the Church that the events, apparitions and locutions given to Adele Brise in October of 1859 do exhibit the substance of supernatural character, and I do hereby approve these apparitions as worthy of belief (although not obligatory) by the Christian faithful.”

Is belief in the more famous apparitions required by the "Christian faithful"? Might it depend on where you are? For example, is belief in Our Lady of Guadalupe required in Mexico? How about in Australia?

I also hate to bring up this subject again, but is belief in transubstantiation required of Catholics? I'd be interested to see a full list of everything Catholics are required to believe.

Quote: Wizard

I also hate to bring up this subject again, but is belief in transubstantiation required of Catholics? I'd be interested to see a full list of everything Catholics are required to believe.

I think the father will have to answer definitively.

As I understand it, individual Marian apparitions are private revelations, and not core beliefs. As they are accepted by the church, I think it is not permitted to publicly denounce all of them as superstitions. To do so would be not be consistent with the "Assumption of Mary" which is a required belief.

The Trinity, the Virgin birth, the Resurrection of Jesus, that Jesus died for your sins, people are born with "original sin" and not "tabula rasa", existence of Heaven and Hell, the miracles of Jesus, and for the most part Transubstantiation are pretty much core Christian beliefs shared by all denominations.

Catholics believe in papal infallibility when he pronounces things ex cathedra (literally, "from the chair"). So the Assumption of Mary in 1950 and the Immaculate Conception in 1854 (which is not to be confused with the virgin birth) were pronounced ex cathedra. To the best of my knowledge these two dogmas are not accepted by any Protestant denomination (even the ones closest to Catholicism like Anglicans and Episcopalians). But I would have to research that statement to make sure it is not true. I know very little about Eastern Orthodox.

The Holy See itself has given no complete list of papal statements considered to be infallible. A 1998 commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith listed a number of instances of infallible pronouncements by popes and by ecumenical councils, but explicitly stated (at no. 11) that this was not meant to be a complete list.

Beliefs like "demonic possession" should not be considered impossible. You can doubt it's truth for individual cases, but you can't question it's existence.

I am not sure about "limbo" or concepts like "stigmata".

Quote: pacomartin

... and for the most part Transubstantiation are pretty much core Christian beliefs shared by all denominations.

Protestants observe commune about once a month or so, depending on the denomination. However, they don't believe, as Catholics do, that the bread and wine are literally changed to the body and blood of Jesus. They believe they are symbolic of it. They do it to remember Jesus' sacrifice, and a feeling of redemption they get afterward.

A Catholic will never say or admit that the bread and wine are just symbolic. They really believe it changes somehow when the priest prays for it. You will really have to get a Catholic to explain it further, as I just find it nucking futs. It has also been debated here several months ago, but I didn't leave the debate with more clarity on the issue.

Okay, sorry for all the distractions, let's get back to Español.

Fecha: 15-12-11
Palabra lindo: otoño = autumn
Palabra fea: hormiga = ant

Ejemplo time

Me gusta el olor de el bosque en el otoño. = I love the smell of the forest in the autumn.

Mi jefe me hace trabajar como una hormiga = My boss makes me work like an ant.

I don't know if I can or could answer definitively about the whole of which Catholics believe in a post or in 100 of them. Let me start by saying that there is a hierarchy of beliefs in the Catholic faith. I like to use the image of the beautiful colonnade outside of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. I look at them as a mother's arms reaching out to the world. Inside those arms is plenty of room for lots of people (in fact the whole world) with lots of different views concerning different aspects of the faith. Far to the left or far to the right of this huge piazza you can find people still comforted by their Catholic faith who hold very different priorities. However, there is also a clearly marked line that puts you outside the embrace of mother Church.

Another way to help understand this variety found in Catholicism is to think of the three legged footstool. Unlike Bob Tebow's group Catholics see God's revelation not only in the Bible, but also in Sacred Tradition (from which the Bible came into existence) and the Magisterium, or teaching office of the Church. You could think of the Magisterium as the reflection of the Church inspired by the Holy Spirit to deepen and develop the deposit of Divine Revelation found in the Bible and Sacred Tradition.

The Magisterium is the teaching office of the Church and there are two types of teachings: extraordinary or ordinary form. Any teaching of the Church requires some level of assent on the part of the faithful but the assent required depends of the level or type of the Magisterium. Of course, any teaching of the Catholic Church must be derived from the deposit of Divine Revelation (Bible and Tradition). It should be obvious that nothing authentically from the Sacred Tradition can contradict the Biblical Word of God nor any Biblical teaching properly interpreted can contradict Sacred Tradition. Extraordinary teachings or supreme or Sacred teachings of the Magisterium would be infallible.

Infallibility is not the sole property of the Pope. When the Bishops come together in a council or when they universally teach something to be true they exercise the supreme level of the magisterium. The faithful together with their bishops around the world also proclaim infallible truths by what they believe as the Body of Christ guided by the Spirit. In fact Papal Infallibility ex cathedra is not pronouncing anything new to be true but it is clarifying an already held belief to be part of the extraordinary magisterium. For example the Assumption of Mary and Mary's Immaculate Conception were widely held and ancient beliefs of the Church that the Pope felt necessary to proclaim infallible when they came under attack. This was not to stifle theological debate, which continues to this day, but rather to help protect the faithful from confusion and maintain the unity of the Church. The assent required for this supreme or Sacred level of Church teaching is full assent of faith or the obedience of faith. This type of assent I would describe as knowing and believing something is true as a given. This still leaves us room to discover why it is true for ourselves. Think of it like someone who gives away the ending to the movie or the sports game but we can still of course watch how it happens and try to figure it out all the time knowing how it has to end.

The ordinary magisterium or teaching of the Church is not infallible. This does not mean you don't have to believe anything the ordinary magisterium teaches. This level of teaching still asks from the faithful a religious assent of the mind and will. What does that mean? It means that we should in humility give the Church’s teaching the benefit of the doubt when it comes in conflict with our own thoughts and feelings. I can feel Evenbob calling this toeing the company line, but it doesn't mean that we wholeheartedly agree with the teaching. It just means that when I weigh my limited understanding of this stuff against the Church and all of its many theologians, prayerful discernment, ancient traditions, and special role as founded by Christ Himself to pass on the Gospel I should lean a little bit to the side of the Church. It means I am called to foster a humble recognition that even if I can't fully assent to the teaching I recognize the authority of the Church outweighs my own personal opinions. Dissent from an ordinary teaching of the magisterium is possible but not based just on what I want to be true or my own feelings. To dissent you must call upon the Bible or Tradition or another more certain teaching of the magisterium.

There is so much more but let me stop there as my point is to say that the question of what Catholics believe is not as easy as putting together a list, there are different levels of teaching some of which have to be held some of which can be reasonably dissented from.
Really sorry for the long and confusing post – Yo quiero Taco Bell!

Quote: Wizard

Protestants observe commune about once a month or so, depending on the denomination. However, they don't believe, as Catholics do, that the bread and wine are literally changed to the body and blood of Jesus. They believe they are symbolic of it. They do it to remember Jesus' sacrifice, and a feeling of redemption they get afterward.

I think if you actually studied the Protestant denominations, you would find only a few (like Jehovah's witnesses) that use the word "symbolic". While the word "transubstantiation" is very Catholic, many Protestant creeds refer to "real presence" or something more than symbolism.

Personally, I am more of an empiricist; by which I mean I have trouble with arguments that cannot be tested by any scientific means.


Fighting ants

I won't post a picture of food that some people may find offensive, but for the gourmets look up escamoles.

Quote: Wizard

Okay, sorry for all the distractions, let's get back to Español.

It's your board and your thread. You can highjack it if you want to.

But I must say I had a flashback to an old movie. To paraphrase "Listening to these Christians talk about theology is like walking into a room full of people speaking some weird Hungarian dialect." ;)

If it's any consolation, I get the same feeling when I catch Orhtodox Jews discussing theology as well. Not to mention conservative Jews, which can be even more disconcerting.

You can consider my response to Paco's Email about transubstantiation in this post.

Quote: Nareed

To paraphrase "Listening to these Christians talk about theology is like walking into a room full of people speaking some weird Hungarian dialect." ;)

Well, as long as the terminology is sufficiently dumbed down for me, I enjoy any honest discussion about any religion, especially if there is some difference in opinion being expressed. Nothing worse than just getting preached at. I went to a Orthodox Jewish service a few years ago, by the way. I'd love to ask you questions about it, but I can't remember the details very well, and it was all in Hebrew.

I guess I find it fascinating that most of the planet find the need for it, and take some pleasure in learning about the details. For example, if the Virgin of Guadalupe an interesting story, which is why I keep asking questions about it. I'm going to make it to the church someday, and drag you along as my translator.

Quote: Wizard

For example, if the Virgin of Guadalupe an interesting story, which is why I keep asking questions about it. I'm going to make it to the church someday, and drag you along as my translator.

As one of the world's greatest shrines, you should see it. Mexican airlines are usually better than American airlines about selling open-jaw tickets without gouging you too badly. You could fly Volaris into Mexico city, work your way across via bus for the 400-500 miles of colonial cities like Patzcuaro, Guanajato, Morelia, etc. and finish up in Guadalajara where you can fly back. Unfortunately rental cars (especially with drop off fees) and tolls and gas are very high. You may have to travel via bus, or rent a car for the day to see something special.

There are many Virgins in Mexico alone. I've seen a number of them. The feast day of the local virgin is a big deal. In Oaxaca they had so many feast days in December, that they were incredibly busy.
Feast of the Immaculate Conception : December 9
Virgin of Guadelupe Day: December 12
Virgin of Soledad Day: December 18
Christmas Day: December 25

I believe this is the 2nd most important Virgin in Mexico
Our Lady of San Juan de los Lagos in Jalisco


Zapopan (major suburb of Guadalajara) in Jalisco


Ocotlán, Tlaxcala, Mexico (1541) in Oaxaca


Soledad in Oaxaca City, Oaxaca


Virgen of Juquila in mountains in Oaxaca


Pátzcuaro: Our Lady of Health in Michoacan


Tlalpujahua: Our Lady of Mount Carmel (El Carmen) in Michoacan


Jacona: Our Lady of the Mandrake Root (La Esperanza) in Michoacan

Well, the Virgin Mary really seems to like Mexico, she keeps showing up at different places and times. Meanwhile, just one appearance in the US in Green Bay.

One of my favorite things about Mexico is they are very artistic when it comes to religion. When I went to San Jose del Cabo the week before Christmas several years ago they had very decorative nativity scenes. Not the big obnoxious displays we have up there, but small affectionate displays that paid a lot of attention to detail. I wrote this before, but they don't put the baby in until Christmas.

Quote: Wizard

Well, as long as the terminology is sufficiently dumbed down for me,

Oh, it's not a failure to understand, but the felling that you're unexpectedly thrust into something odd and alien.

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I went to a Orthodox Jewish service a few years ago, by the way.

So did I. Family obligation. I swear I should state, boldly, I won't attend any more segregated services...

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I'd love to ask you questions about it, but I can't remember the details very well, and it was all in Hebrew.

You can ask, but my experience with Orthodox Judaism is really slight. My parents had sense enough to join a Conservative temple. If you're going to attend religious services, you may as well go light. Of course they could have gone Reform. But do ask, odds are I may know something.

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I'm going to make it to the church someday, and drag you along as my translator.

That would require hazard pay :P

Quote: Nareed

You can ask, but my experience with Orthodox Judaism is really slight.

Here is what I remember.

We had to walk there, which in our case wasn't far. Once we got there there was no pre-service chit chat, everyone took a seat and I guess were supposed to be silently praying. I did not know what to do with myself during this time and still make half an attempt to blend in. The room was divided between men and women, with about 25 total people.

The service was all singing and reading from the Torah (I assume). It was entirely in Hebrew, so I had no clue about anything. Actually one passage I recognized just from the tempo, Pslam 23.

Afterward there was no post-service chit chat, everybody just went home. On a positive note, I didn't get any stares or made to feel badly because I wasn't going the right thing at the right time. On a negative note, it would have been nice to be welcomed by somebody.

So, I would have to agree with you, if I were to convert I'd go for something more modern. Perhaps whatever branch of Judaism where they give an uplifting sermon in English and there is from friendly chit chat afterward.

If anybody was running this service, I couldn't tell who it was. It was like everybody had memorized what to do when and did it out of habit. There was not even a program to follow, like they have in Christian churches.

So, I'm not sure what my question is, but feel free to give me a commentary on what happened.

Quote: Wizard

So, I'm not sure what my question is, but feel free to give me a commentary on what happened.

Way over my head. Just want to say that the Torah is only the first five books of the bible (which does not include Psalms). So the reading may have been from the Torah, but the rest of the service was not. I read about a $35 walking tour of crown heights.


Salmos 23
JEHOVA es mi pastor; nada me faltará.
En lugares de delicados pastos me hará yacer: Junto á aguas de reposo me pastoreará.

While the names of God is a complex subject, in English bibles the name of the Jehova is translated as "The Lord" and Elohim as "My God". Jehova is a personal name, and can be pronounced. The true name of God is YHWH for the Tetragrammaton יהוה‎ which cannot be spoken. In Spanish JEHOVA is the preferred pronounciation.

Notice the frequent use of the morphological future tense.

Notice and the use of the verb 'faltar' for "to want". In English we use the Old Norse word 'vant' to mean lacking in something, while we largely use 'fault' when we imply "moral culpability". The word 'faltar' is now a "false friend" in English, even though they came from the same Latin word, but now they mean have developed slightly different meanings in English and Spanish.

Note that the "green pastures" have now become "delicate pastures".

The phrase "leadeth me" in early modern English, becomes the future tense of 'pastorear' or literally 'to shepherd'.

Quote: Wizard

Here is what I remember.

I do know a bit about it, but I'm too busy at work to go into it in detail.

For now just let me assure you reading the Torah is a major event, carried out only on Mondays, Thursdays, Saturdays and some holidays. The prayers are from a prayer book, which does contain some passages from the torah and other parts of the Bible, but is mostly lithurgy written in the XII Century.

About the hazard pay -- agreed.

I will definitely do that Crown Heights tour my next time in New York. That is exactly the kind of thing I enjoy. Thanks for suggesting it.

One my my favorite ways to annoy my Jewish friends is to ask why they wear necklaces with the pi symbol, and where can I buy one. I'll be sure to ask the tour guide that.

Okay, we seem to be talking more about religion than Spanish, which is fine, but let me introduce two new words.

Linda: estrella = star.
Feo: vomitar = to vomit.

Ejemplo time

Se puede ver mucha estrellas en una noche clara. = One can see lots of stars on a clear night.

Cuando estuve en Perú, vomitó luego de ver carne de coballo en la carta. = When I was in Peru, I vomited after I saw guinea pig meat on the menu.

Note 1: I'm going with coballo, because I established that is what they call them in Argentina, and Peru is at least in the same continent.

Note 2: Paco may not put up any pictures relating to my second ejemplo. I'm serious.

Quote: pacomartin

I won't post a picture of food that some people may find offensive, but for the gourmets look up escamoles.

You will notice that last time I left a reference to escamoles instead of a photo in deference to the faint of heart.

Me comprometo a no publicar más fotos de la comida exótica.

Watch Andrew Zimmern bizarre foods (only crabs in this photo).


Get ready for your church service:

En el principio Dios creó los cielos y la tierra.
La tierra estaba sin orden y vacía, y las tinieblas cubrían la superficie del abismo, y el Espíritu de Dios se movía sobre la superficie de las aguas.

Nareed, would you use "la superficie" or "faz" ?

Quote: Wizard

About the hazard pay -- agreed.

Good. I'll make you regret it :)

Quote:

I will definitely do that Crown Heights tour my next time in New York.

Do not wear shorts on the Sabbath. In fact, do not wear shorts at all (I'm not sure about sleeves). If you go with a woman, make sure she wears a floor- or ankle-length skirt, not slacks.

Quote: Nareed

Do not wear shorts on the Sabbath. In fact, do not wear shorts at all (I'm not sure about sleeves). If you go with a woman, make sure she wears a floor- or ankle-length skirt, not slacks.

Thanks for the warning. I usually dress like this when I travel.


At the crypt of Evita.

My date Lisa was going to go like this:

I do not see my post as a hijack, I just want to add some curiosity about Virgin Mary from the Brazilian perspective. We are a major catholic country and the Saint of our country is Holly Mary "the shown"



It is said that this image of our "Black Virgin Mary" was found by fishers in a lake that was going out of fishes after decades of exploitation. Suddenly, after they have found the image and built a chapel in its honor, the lake recovered and they started catching lots of fish again, twice the amount they were used to.

This story comes from a town in the state of São Paulo, called Aparecida do Norte. A picture of the basilic where the image is kept is above, this place receives millions of pilgrims every year from all over the world :

There is an Orthodox Shul on 2640 Regatta Drive. They would probably be very happy to give you some reading material and talk with you.
I don't know if the Rabbi can eat lunch with you at a kosher restaurant. The orthodox Jews at work never ate with us, but it may have just been because of the cafeteria or the restaurants.

Quote: aluisio

I do not see my post as a hijack, I just want to add some curiosity about Virgin Mary from the Brazilian perspective. We are a major catholic country and the Saint of our country is Holly Mary "the shown"

No, welcome to the SWD. We're very known for going off topic around here and nobody gets upset about it. Probably because I'm always the cause of it and, well, I'm the top banana around here. Thanks for sharing about the Virgin's Mary's favorite spot in Brazil. If I'm ever in Sao Paolo I'll definitely go there.

I know y'all speak Portuguese in Brazil, but how is your Spanish?

Thanks, this seems to be a really busy topic! Well, Portuguese is actually the official language in Brazil, but it is mandatory in Brazil for schools to teach one foreign language that can be spanish or english during high school (3 eyars). Most schools, including public schools, teach spanish because of Mercosul, that is something near to Nafta.
I dont think that two hours a week for three years will provide you fluency in any idiom, but this is enough study to make almost every teenager in Brazil - since early 90's - at least comfortable with Spanish and prepared to travel to Peru, Argentina, Chile, etc.
Luckly I went to a school where they had spanish and english, and later I had the opportunity to travel as in interchange student to the U.S, Argentina and Peru.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for the warning. I usually dress like this when I travel.

I know. It's part of your charm.

But it won't do to rile up the natives.

As to your other question, all Jewish prayer services are very similar. There's a prayer book called, in Hebrew, "Sidur" (I transliterate in Spanish, BTW). It does contain passages from the Bible, including the Torah, but as I said it's mostly liturgy written for prayer services. Parts are spoken aloud, parts are done in silence and some parts are sung (especially in Friday night services). The regular prayer book is divided into sections for the different services, including special ones for holidays.

In Orthodox services typically everything is done in Hebrew, without any instructions or directions as, for example, when to stand or what page to turn to. Conservative temples offer directions and do parts in other languages.

You may have noticed a cabinet at one end of the room, with very elaborate doors. This contains the temple's Torahs (no idea why they need more than one). It usually has a curtain behind the doors, too. At various points in the service the curtain is opened, then closed. Don't ask me why.

On the days when the Torah is read, one i taken out of the cabinet, paraded around the temple, then laid out on a table, unscrolled and read. There's a great deal of other ritual involved. Different parts are read according to the date on the Lunar calendar. This happens on Mondays, Thursdays, Saturdays, some holidays and the first of each Lunar month. The whole ritual is as close as Judaism gets to idolatry, in contrast with some forms of Christianity which are fairly steeped in it (as if that matters).

Don't ever attend a Saturday morning service, BTW, unless you have a masochistic streak in you. They can last up to three hours or more.