Spanish word of the day
Quote: Nareed\Not necessarily. That's why I said pasear also means to go somewhere to do something enjoyable.
The primary definition in RAE is "Ir andando por distracción o por ejercicio" or (to go walking for enjoyment or for exercise).
The original Latin root verb meant "to stretch out".
pasear (De paso).
1. intr. Ir andando por distracción o por ejercicio.
2. intr. Ir con iguales fines, ya a caballo, en carruaje, etc., ya por agua en una embarcación.
3. intr. Dicho de un caballo: Andar con movimiento o paso natural.
4. tr. Hacer pasear. Pasear a un niño. Pasear a un caballo.
5. tr. Llevar algo de una parte a otra, o hacerlo ver acá y allá.
6. prnl. Discurrir acerca de una materia sin hacer pie en ella, o vagamente.
7. prnl. Dicho de una cosa no material: Andar vagando.
intr==intransitive
tr == transitive
prnl == pronomial
Quote: NareedMe gusta pasear por la playa. = I like to walk on the beach.
That's a bad choice, as people do walk on the beach and not, for some reason, stroll there.
At least I evidently got the por right, I was not very confident on that. However, I'm surprised to hear you claim people don't stroll on the beach. Beaches are practically meant for strolling. Slowly walking up and down, smelling the salty air, the sound of the waves, and enjoying the scenery. If you are trying to get from point A to B walking in sand would be a bad choice.
Also, how does andar differ from caminar y pasear?
Quote: WizardAlso, how does andar differ from caminar y pasear?
It would seem that
andar is most concerned with the physical act,
caminar with the intent to walk a certain distance, and
pasear with the enjoyment and exercise aspect (i.e. strolling).
andar: Dicho de un ser animado: Ir de un lugar a otro dando pasos
caminar: Andar determinada distancia
pasear: Ir andando por distracción o por ejercicio
Quote: WizardAt least I evidently got the por right, I was not very confident on that.
Oh, yes, the phrase was grammatically perfect.
Quote:However, I'm surprised to hear you claim people don't stroll on the beach. Beaches are practically meant for strolling. Slowly walking up and down, smelling the salty air, the sound of the waves, and enjoying the scenery.
Yes, but no one ever says "I like to stroll on the beach," or "I enjoy long strolls through the beach." It's always "I like to walk on the beach."
Quote:If you are trying to get from point A to B walking in sand would be a bad choice.
Depends on where the points are :P
Quote: pacomartinThe primary definition in RAE is "Ir andando por distracción o por ejercicio" or (to go walking for enjoyment or for exercise).
As I've said before, the dictionary only goes so far.
The usage of the word pasear means what I said up thread. I can guarantee that. It might be peculiar to Mexican usage, but it is right. It's also related to the noun "paseo" which means also a stroll or going somewhere for enjoyment (it also emnas something like avenue or drive, but I'm not sure which; only a few streets get named that, but one important street in Mex City is Paseo de la Reforma")
Quote: NareedYes, but no one ever says "I like to stroll on the beach," or "I enjoy long strolls through the beach." It's always "I like to walk on the beach."
I could picture someone saying he/she likes to stroll on the beach. You don't hear it much because stroll is an antiquated word now and not spoken much in any context.
Quote: WizardI could picture someone saying he/she likes to stroll on the beach. You don't hear it much because stroll is an antiquated word now and not spoken much in any context.
Whatever the reason, it's not used often. That's what I meant.
Quote: WizardYou don't hear it much because stroll is an antiquated word now and not spoken much in any context.
There is an English word that is not often used: argot. Shakespeare makes fun of the word in Hamlet by confusing it with the Latin word Ergo. "Argot" is the jargon of street thugs. It was easily observed from people who were the victim of coordinated muggings that the thugs were using a vernacular English that allowed them to talk to each other, while only confusing the proper citizen.A "booly-dog" was a policeman, and "blunt" meant money.
Another word that got associated with street speak was cant which seemed to be a combination of "chant" and "You can't understand". Proper society sometimes read "cant sheets" which explained the language of the street, in theory so that they were better prepared against a mugging. Clearly the idea is alive and well today, as "urban dictionaries", "internet speak" , "Speak Southern" and dozens of other books or internet sites translate "argot" into standard English.
Stroll was originally a "cant word", until it was altered for songs sung by people like Shirley Temple. After that it became mainstream. Now it is vanishing, possibly to be picked up as a new argot word someday.
The original lyrics of "Puttin on the Ritz" as written in 1929 used the proper "argot" to referenced well-dressed but poor black Harlemites who would parade up and down Lenox Avenue. Irving Berlin revised the lyrics, to affluent whites strutting “up and down Park Avenue“. It is the ultimate song about "strolling".
Original: Spangled gowns upon the bevy of high browns from down the levee, all misfits
Revised: Different types who wear a day coat, pants with stripes and cut away coat, perfect fits
Original: That’s where each and ev’ry Lulu-Belle goes, ev’ry Thursday evening with her swell beaus
Revised: Dressed up like a million dollar trooper, trying hard to look like Gary Cooper
Original: Come with me and we’ll attend the jubilee, and see them spend their last two bits
Revised: Come, let’s mix where Rockerfellers walk with sticks, or umber-ellas in their mitts
Quote: pacomartinThere is an English word that is not often used: argot.
Funny thing, that word is sometimes used in Spanish, or it was (it was never common). By its usage I thought it meant "slang."
Quote:The original lyrics of "Puttin on the Ritz" [..] Irving Berlin revised the lyrics, to affluent whites strutting “up and down Park Avenue“. It is the ultimate song about "strolling".
I rather like that song.
It also worked very well in the scene with Gene Wilder and Peter Boyle in "Young Frankenstein"
Quote: NareedFunny thing, that word is sometimes used in Spanish, or it was (it was never common). By its usage I thought it meant "slang."
Well all the words are synonymous, but they are usually taken in context. "Slang" is of all purpose usage, and does not necessarily have any moral implications except possibly ignorance. "Jargon" usually implies a scientific, literate, or legal usage, but is often meant to be a negative word implying deliberate obfuscation. Less commonly used are "argot" and "cant". "Argot" is almost slang used by criminal groups. But "argot" has the double purpose of allowing the thieves to talk openly in front of other people and hide their intentions. "Cant" is something similar, but usually you think of long dialogue in slang which resembles a song.
Cab Calloway produced some "hepster dictionaries" in the form of free booklets given away with his recordings of the time.
Shakespeare's joke in Hamlet was to have the ignorant gravedigger try and sound like a lawyer. He keeps repeating the word "Ergot" which is clearly a mispronunciation of the Latin word "ergo". But in typical Shakespearean style, the ignorant gravedigger makes the comic connection between the language of lawyers, and the "argot" of thieves. The implication is that they both serve the same purpose.
One of the most highly developed argots is Rotwelsch in Germany.
Palabra: Despistado
Let's try something simple for a change. Today's word means disoriented, distracted, or oblivious to the wide world around. It's one of those words that isn't used much, but is instantly recognizable.
I'll try to one-up Paco and suggest an origin. "Pista" means both track and clue. the prefix "des" means without, usually. For example a boneless chicken breast is called "pechuga deshuesada." Despisatdo therefore means literally clueless or off-track, both instances attributable to distraction, disorientation or obliviousness.
Examples are left as an exercise for the students. (NOTE: one of my all-time favorite teachers admitted she said things like that when she felt too lazy to actually come up with something).
Quote: NareedExamples are left as an exercise for the students.
I hate when math books throw out an equation and say the proof is left to the student. Some refer to that as "pulling a Fermat."
Mi ejemplo:
La muchacha quiso hacer sexo con migo. Pero soy demasiado despistado no lo doy cuenta. = The gal wanted to have sex with me. But I am so clueless I didn't realize it.
Quote: WizardI hate when math books throw out an equation and say the proof is left to the student. Some refer to that as "pulling a Fermat."
I know the feeling. That's why I added the note...
Quote:La muchacha quiso hacer sexo con migo. Pero soy demasiado despistado no lo doy cuenta. = The gal wanted to have sex with me. But I am so clueless I didn't realize it.
Not bad, but again you're misusing a few words. "Hacer" in particular means "to make." The right word would be "tener" meaning "to have."
But rather than go word for word, let me offer a correction:
"La chica quiso acostarse conmingo. Pero fuí demasiado despistado y no me dí cuenta"
You had the right words, mostly, but didn't quite use them right.
Anyway, I changed "muchacha" to "chica" because the former tends to mean "maid", or "sirvienta" in Mexico. Not exclusively, but it could seem you said your maid wanted to have sex with you. And for the sake of completeness: "Muchacha" = "Young woman," "chica" = "girl."
"To have sex" gets changed to "acostarse," meaning "to lay down in bed with me," or, in this context, "to sleep with me," because that's the common expression used. You do not hear hear people say "quiero tener sexo con..." or "Ella quiere tener sexo con..." My version is more common. Other acceptable ones would be "tener relaciones" or "dormir conmigo."
Next Your first sentence uses the past tense, while the second uses present tense. I changed the second to past tense as well. So instead of saying "I'm so clueless" ("Soy demasiado despistado") it changes to "I was so clueless" ("fuí demasiado despistado").
How about that? Leaving the work to the student can man more work for me. My teacher never warned me about it.
The present tense was quite deliberate as I am still clueless when it comes to women.
Quote: WizardThanks for all the comments. Acostarse was indeed a word I didn't know. I was pretty much translating "have sex" word for word as best I could.
I noticed.
BTW, the "have sex" vs "acostarse" may be a Latin thing. Do you recall the song Lady Marmalade? The bit n French means "Would you lay down with me tonight?"
Quote:The present tense was quite deliberate as I am still clueless when it comes to women.
In what sense?
I mean men plainly don't understand women, and viceversa. But I get the feeling you're not just admitting to the common state of affairs.
Quote: NareedI mean men plainly don't understand women, and viceversa. But I get the feeling you're not just admitting to the common state of affairs.
Tienes razón. Let's just leave it at that.
Quote: WizardTienes razón. Let's just leave it at that.
Bueno.
Quote: NareedBTW, the "have sex" vs "acostarse" may be a Latin thing. Do you recall the song Lady Marmalade? The bit n French means "Would you lay down with me tonight?"
I think that is a good theory. The English word "lie" existed for many centuries, but the phrase "lie with" only acquired the meaning of "have sex with" until well after the Norman Invasion, and French words were widely introduced into English.
Phrases like "do it" or "do me" have only existed for about a century. The word "screw" was slang for a prostitute for 3 centuries, but "screw" as a verb meaning to have sex is also about a 100 years old. The acronym Fornication Under the King is made up, as acronyms didn't exist in the middle ages. The actual verb is very old, and of uncertain origin (despite tremendous efforts to trace it).
In your previous example, I am not sure which of the following three phrases to use. I am always aware of using (1) because it implies some kind of permanent condition, instead of a mere quirk. I think (3) implies more that "I am confused" and makes the full sentence less understandable.
(1) soy demasiado despistado
(2) estoy demasiado despistado
(3) estoy muy despistado
My French is almost as bad as my Spanish -- one or two mispronounced sentences as opposed to one or two words. I always wondered why the song line "Voulez-vous ...." was in the plural (or formal) form. The context of the song doesn't seem to suggest a group-sex event, and the topic seems more appropriate for a "familiar" verb form: "Veux-tu ....", I think. Would native speakers say this expression the way it is in the song?Quote: NareedDo you recall the song Lady Marmalade? The bit n French means "Would you lay down with me tonight?"
(For those not tracking this, the lyrics Nareed was referring to are:
Quote: Patti LaBelle (1975) and several covers, including Christina Aguilera, Lil' Kim, Mýa, and Pink (2001)Voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir?
Voulez-vous coucher avec moi?
Quote: pacomartinI think that is a good theory.
Hypothesis. But thanks. In any case it's based on two examples, which isn't much.
Quote:In your previous example, I am not sure which of the following three phrases to use. I am always aware of using (1) because it implies some kind of permanent condition, instead of a mere quirk. I think (3) implies more that "I am confused" and makes the full sentence less understandable.
(1) soy demasiado despistado
(2) estoy demasiado despistado
(3) estoy muy despistado
Overall you'd say "soy despistado," either "muy" or "tan" (roughly "too" and "so"), rather than "estoy depsistado." t's more a quality you posses, how you are, rather than something that comes and goes.
Quote: DocMy French is almost as bad as my Spanish
Mine isn't that good.
Come to think of it, mine just isn't. :)
Quote:-- one or two mispronounced sentences as opposed to one or two words. I always wondered why the song line "Voulez-vous ...." was in the plural (or formal) form. The context of the song doesn't seem to suggest a group-sex event, and the topic seems more appropriate for a "familiar" verb form: "Veux-tu ....", I think. Would native speakers say this expression the way it is in the song?
I had no idea, quite literally. My guess is whoever wrote the sing didn't know or care, and maybe the form used scanned better that way. On the other hand the song is about a whore, so she might be saying that to all men she sees passing by.
Palabra: puñado
It is my understanding that today's word, puñado means handful. However, I have my doubts. Usually Spanish is pretty logical, so it meant literally an amount capable of holding in your hand, you would think mano (hand) would be in there somewhere. Perhaps this is another incidence where the dictionary is not doing the word justice. Perhaps the etymology would clear things up. I'm sure Nareed and Paco can give us a puñado of help on this one.
Ejemplo time.
Puedes tomar un puñado de frijoles. = You may take a handful of beans.
Quote: WizardUsually Spanish is pretty logical, so it meant literally an amount capable of holding in your hand, you would think mano (hand) would be in there somewhere.
Well it is hidden in there. El puño es una mano cerrada.
Clint Eastwood en Por un Puñado de Dolares.
There actually is another word which is manojo.
Voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir?
Voulez-vous coucher avec moi?
Spanish
¿Te acuestas conmigo esta noche?
¿Te acuestas conmigo?
Italian
Vuoi dormire con me stasera?
Vuoi dormire con me?
Latin
Vis mecum nocte somnus?
Vis mecum somnus?
Romanian
Vrei să dormi cu mine in seara asta?
Vrei să dormi cu mine?
They sure don't look like they are all from the same language. I had a priest who grew up in Italy tell me that it was very easy for him to learn Spanish when he moved to San Diego. I assume that Italian has the closest vocabulary to Latin, so it was easy to shift to Spanish conjugations. On the other hand, I don't think his parishioners were speaking a very high version of Spanish.
Quote: pacomartinWell it is hidden in there. El puño es una mano cerrada.
Gracías. No lo supe.
Quote: WizardFecha: 3 de Octobre, 2011
Palabra: puñado
It is my understanding that today's word, puñado means handful. However, I have my doubts. Usually Spanish is pretty logical,
Spanish? Logical? No more so than any other language. Which means not very logical at all. Languages change at whim, fad and fashion, mostly.
Quote:so it meant literally an amount capable of holding in your hand, you would think mano (hand) would be in there somewhere.
There is a word like that, "manojo," which means a bunch of sticks or herbs tied together, of such a size that they can be held with one hand. It's a common unit of measure when you're buying herbs, or small, stalked vegetables like radishes or pearl onions. BTW in Mexico herbs are a big deal when it comes to cooking, and buying herbs at the market or grocery store is common.
Anyway, "puñado" is based on the word "puño," meaning "fist." Paco alludes to the Spaghetti Western "For a Fistful of Dollars," translated, amazingly well, as "Por un Puñado de Doalres." It really does mean handful, too.
Quote:Puedes tomar un puñado de frijoles. = You may take a handful of beans.
That was perfect.
Quote: WizardGracías. No lo supe.
No lo sabía.
The distinction is subtle, but it matters. "No lo sabía" means "I didn't know that." "No lo supe" means literally the same thing, but actually it means you lacked the knowledge to answer a question in particular, or that you lacked certain knowledge until a certain point in time. For example:
"No supe la respuesta a la segunda pregunta del examen" = "I didn't know the answer to the test's second question."
"No lo supe hasta hoy." = "I dind't learn that until today," or "I didn't know that until today"
It's these kinds of small details that drive you crazy.
Quote: WizardThanks. Actually, since Paco introduced me to puño y puñado, I do know that today. So since I no longer lack the knowledge I would think supe is appropriate. Then again, maybe I'll forget them tomorrow, in which case perhaps sabía would be appropriate.
I grant you my explanation doesn't quite make sense, but it's hard to point out differences between words that have the same meaning.
Quote: NareedQuote: WizardGracías. No lo supe.
No lo sabía.
The distinction is subtle, but it matters. "No lo sabía" means "I didn't know that." "No lo supe" means literally the same thing, but actually it means you lacked the knowledge to answer a question in particular, or that you lacked certain knowledge until a certain point in time. For example:
"No supe la respuesta a la segunda pregunta del examen" = "I didn't know the answer to the test's second question."
"No lo supe hasta hoy." = "I dind't learn that until today," or "I didn't know that until today"
It's these kinds of small details that drive you crazy.
"No lo supe" is incorrect grammar without a qualifying phrase.
"Supe" is referred to as the imperfect past tense.
"No lo sabía" is called the preterite tense. It is also a past tense but refers to a completed action.
In English we have sort of the same idea, but the two tenses do not have different conjugations. The sense is made clear with "helping" words. It is also sometimes unclear in English if the action was ever completed, but in Spanish it is always explicit.
The preterite is usually translated into English by either a simple past tense, or often using the English word "did" to emphasize that the action is complete. Nareed used this translation. It is also very common to use a different English verb for different past tenses. Nareed used "know" for the preterite (completed) past tense, but "learn" for the imperfect past tense. The verb "learn" is the most accurate translation for the imperfect past.
Another way to translate the imperfect past is to use the English phrase "used to" which emphasizes that it is incomplete and needs some qualifying phrase. "I used to eat, until I looked in a mirror". See how the incomplete past is the first phrase, which is followed by a completed past action (looking in the mirror). Sometimes we use the past progressive "I was eating all the time, until I looked in the mirror".
I have heard it explained that the imperfect Past Tense "describes or set scenes". The "I didn't know that" is the scene description, the "until today" finishes off the scene. If you don't like this explanation, I did not make it up.
In this particular case we are expressing a negative as well as an imperfect past.
Palabra: PORTAR
According to the dictionary, portar has two meanings:
1. To carry/bring
2. To behave
I don't know how the carry/bring usage differs from llevar, but would be interested to know. The context I discovered this word meant behave.
Ejemplos time.
No portas como un mono = Don't behave like a monkey.
Si porto mal, Santa Claus no me da un regalo. = If I behave badly, Santa Claus won't give me a gift. (Tengo mucho dudas sobre este uno.) I desperately want to add mente to mal, but I think I can only do that to verbs.
Quote: WizardFecha: 4 de Octobre, 2011
Palabra: PORTAR
According to the dictionary, portar has two meanings:
1. To carry/bring
2. To behave
I don't know how the carry/bring usage differs from llevar, but would be interested to know. The context I discovered this word meant behave.
Ejemplos time.
No portas como un mono = Don't behave like a monkey.
Si porto mal, Santa Claus no me da un regalo. = If I behave badly, Santa Claus won't give me a gift. (Tengo mucho dudas sobre este uno.) I desperately want to add mente to mal, but I think I can only do that to verbs.
According to RAE, the sense of carry or bring as a synonym to "llevar" is now antiquated. Currently it is only used when speaking to a dog, when you want him to return with a bird or other game.
The primary means of use know is as a reflexive verb, portarse which would make both your examples incorrect since you are not using indirect pronouns.
Examples given in the dictionary are:
(1) Portarse mal. "To misbehave"
(2) Se portó como un hombre. "He behaved like a man"
(3) Me porté con frialdad. "I behaved coldly"
Examples (2) and (3) are in the pretérito tense, meaning the action was completed in the past.
The literal translation of the third example would be "I behaved with frigidity", but in English the word is almost always associated with "sexual indifference". To the best of my knowledge it is not used that way in Spanish (Nareed will have to answer).
"Cold" is from Anglo Saxon etymology, and not Latin.
I believe "Si porto mal" should be "Si comporton mal" .
Quote: WizardFecha: 4 de Octobre, 2011
Palabra: PORTAR
According to the dictionary, portar has two meanings:
1. To carry/bring
2. To behave
I don't know how the carry/bring usage differs from llevar, but would be interested to know.
"portar" = "carry"
"llevar" = "take"
traer = bring
Portar also means specificlaly to carry something with you for your own use. It isn't used much. You hear it more often in crime news regarding weapons and drugs.
For example:
Fue arrestado por portación ilegal de armas = he was arrested for illegaly carrying a weapon
Llévate dinero para el cine = Take along money for the movies
Traeme el periódico de hoy = bring me today's newspaper
Quote:The context I discovered this word meant behave.
That too.
Quote:No portas como un mono = Don't behave like a monkey.
No TE portES como un mono.
Quote:Si porto mal, Santa Claus no me da un regalo. = If I behave badly, Santa Claus won't give me a gift.
Si ME porto mal, Santa Claus no me DARÁ un regalo
Quote:(Tengo mucho dudas sobre este uno.)
Tengo muchAS dudas sobre este ÚLTIMO :)
Quote:I desperately want to add mente to mal, but I think I can only do that to verbs.
Good choice. As you see the problem lay elsewhere. But you're right, "malMENTE" is wrong. The word "malAmente" is soemtiems used, but I don't know if it even exists, and in any case it has another meaning. Since it's used almost only as a sentence fragment by itslef, I think it's way wrong.
Quote: pacomartinThe literal translation of the third example would be "I behaved with frigidity", but in English the word is almost always associated with "sexual indifference". To the best of my knowledge it is not used that way in Spanish (Nareed will have to answer).
Look up "frigidez"
Quote: NareedNo TE portES como un mono.
Si ME porto mal, Santa Claus no me DARÁ un regalo.
Do you agree with Paco that the verb is reflexive? If so, shouldn't it be portarse?
Quote: WizardDo you agree with Paco that the verb is reflexive? If so, shouldn't it be portarse?
I don't know what a refelxive verb is.
That said, "portarse" makes no sense in the example you chose. Try these:
"Los alumnos deben portarse bien si quieren permanecer en el salón" = "Students must behave well if they want to stay in the classroom"
"Tienes que portarte bien porque lo digo yo" = "you must behave well beacuse I say so." (Parents...)
I'm unsure how Santa Claus is spelled in Spanish. I think they go with Clos, rather than Claus, but I'm not sure.
Quote: NareedI don't know what a refelxive verb is.
Spanish translations of "to reflect" is the cognate "reflejar", and reflexive is "reflexivo", but traditionally they are referred to in the grammar of a romance language as pronomial verbs. But as we established Nareed does not always know grammatical term, any more than most fluent English speakers know grammatical terms.
In Spanish classes taught to English speakers they are always taught as two separate verbs to underscore the times when the meaning changes when the verb is used in the reflexive sense. For instance "caer" and "caerse" are always taught as two different verbs.
But the RAE does not treat them as two different verbs. It merely lists "caerse" as a pronominal definition of "caer".
The RAE definition of verbo pronominal is (masculine) Gramática: El que se construye en todas sus formas con un pronombre átono que concuerda con el sujeto y que no desempeña ninguna función sintáctica oracional. Algunos verbos son exclusivamente pronominales, como "arrepentirse", y otros adoptan determinados matices significativos o expresivos en las formas reflexivas; por ejemplo, caer o morir.
Regardless, every sentence that Nareed comes up with uses the Direct object pronouns (pronombres de complemento directo)
me (me) - plural nos (us)
te (you)
lo (him, you, it) - plural los (them, you)
la (her, you, it) - plural las (them, you)
se (himself/herself/yourself/themselves/yourselves)
Quote: pacomartinBut as we established Nareed does not always know grammatical term, any more than most fluent English speakers know grammatical terms.
I understood that. A much safer assumption is "Nareed never knows any grammatical term." it's not entriely tru, but it would save us all a lot of trouble.
Quote:In Spanish classes taught to English speakers they are always taught as two separate verbs to underscore the times when the meaning changes when the verb is used in the reflexive sense. For instance "caer" and "caerse" are always taught as two different verbs.
I don't knwo what your point is, but caer and caerse are the same verb. Actually caer (to fall) is the verb, while caerse is an instance of that action. You can say something like "Me dejé caer" = "I let myself fall" or "Lo ví caerse" = "I saw him fall." but as you see it's the same action both times.
Quote:The RAE definition of verbo pronominal is
It's unusual to find a highly technical definition in the dictionary.
Quote:El que se construye en todas sus formas con un pronombre átono
Now, that may just be Spaniard Spanish being difficult, but "átono" to me means "toneless" or "lacking a tone" or even "tone-deaf." In all instances I fail to see that it applies to grammar at all!
Quote:Regardless, every sentence that Nareed comes up with uses the Direct object pronouns (pronombres de complemento directo)
me (me) - plural nos (us)
te (you)
lo (him, you, it) - plural los (them, you)
la (her, you, it) - plural las (them, you)
se (himself/herself/yourself/themselves/yourselves)
See the post you replied to.
Quote: NareedI don't knwo what your point is, but caer and caerse are the same verb. Actually caer (to fall) is the verb, while caerse is an instance of that action. You can say something like "Me dejé caer" = "I let myself fall" or "Lo ví caerse" = "I saw him fall." but as you see it's the same action both times.
I was trying to explain to you why the Wizard asked the question: If so, shouldn't it be portarse?
In a beginning Spanish class for English speakers, all of the books teach the basic transitive verb and the reflexive verb as two different verbs. The reason is that in many cases the equivalent English verb used for translation is different (even if the student can tell that the underlying action is the same). For example:
levantar = "to lift"; levantarse = "to stand up"
abrir = "to open"; abrirse = "to confide"
acordar = "to agree"; acordarse="to remember"
llevar = "to carry"; llevarse = "to take away"
poner = "to put"; ponerse = "to wear"
acusar = "to accuse"; acusarse = "to confess"
The English student realizes that "confession" is sort of like "accusing yourself" or "standing up" is like "lifting yourself up", but those expressions are abnormal English. In other cases the translated English verb is the same:
callar = "to be quiet"; callarse = "to become quiet"
caer = "to fall"; caerse="to fall down"
ir = "to go"; irse = "to go away"
In other cases there is often an unpredicted translation
salir= "to leave"; salirse = "to leave unexpectedly" or "to leak"
Quote: pacomartinIn a beginning Spanish class for English speakers, all of the books teach the basic transitive verb and the reflexive verb as two different verbs. The reason is that in many cases the equivalent English verb used for translation is different (even if the student can tell that the underlying action is the same). For example:
abrir = "to open"; abrirse = "to confide"
acusar = "to accuse"; acusarse = "to confess"
I haven't said this in a while, and I think I never said it here: Sue that techer!
Abrirse = to open up
To Confess = Confesar, confesarse. And this applies to both a police or a church confession.
Quote:In other cases there is often an unpredicted translation
salir= "to leave"; salirse = "to leave unexpectedly" or "to leak"
I don't know of any instance that salirse means to leak. It's on the right track, but it's not like that. If a container is leaking, you'd say "se le sale el líquido al envase," for example.
Quote: Nareed
I don't know of any instance that salirse means to leak. It's on the right track, but it's not like that. If a container is leaking, you'd say "se le sale el líquido al envase," for example.
I haven't said this in a while, and I think I never said it here: Sue that techer!
I think the Spanish-English dictionaries are translating definition #37 in the RAE as "to leak". BTW, the word set has 464 different definitions in the Oxford English Dictionary (the most in the dictionary).
Some "teaching decisions" like treating reflexive verbs as a separate verb were made decades ago. This text is a virtual universal standard since it was written in 1971.
If you take classes in Mexico you learn all kinds of things. I was surprised when one girl told me that ducharse is not said in Mexico. Mexicans prefer to say bañarse whereas the word "ducharse" is only common in Spain. That word is in every basic Spanish text, and I have never seen that in writing.
Quote: RAE definition of salir
(Del lat. salīre, saltar, brotar).
1. intr. Pasar de dentro a fuera. U. t. c. prnl.
2. intr. Partir de un lugar a otro. Tal día salieron los reyes de Madrid para Barcelona.
3. intr. Desembarazarse, librarse de algún lugar estrecho, peligroso o molesto.
4. intr. Libertarse, desembarazarse de algo que ocupa o molesta. Salió de la duda. Salir de apuros.
5. intr. Aparecer, manifestarse, descubrirse. Va a salir el Sol. El gobernador salió en televisión. La revista sale los jueves.
6. intr. Nacer, brotar. Empieza a salir el trigo.
7. intr. Dicho de una mancha: Quitarse, borrarse, desaparecer.
8. intr. Dicho de una mancha: aparecer (‖ manifestarse, dejarse ver). La mancha ha vuelto a salir.
9. intr. Dicho de una cosa: Sobresalir, estar más alta o más afuera que otra.
10. intr. Dicho de una persona: Descubrir su índole, idoneidad o aprovechamiento. Salió muy travieso, muy juicioso, buen matemático.
11. intr. Dicho de una cosa: Nacer, proceder, traer su origen de otra.
12. intr. Dicho de una persona: En ciertos juegos, ser la primera que juega.
13. intr. Deshacerse de algo vendiéndolo o despachándolo. Ya he salido de todo mi grano.
14. intr. Darse al público.
15. intr. Decir o hacer algo inesperado o intempestivo. ¿Ahora sale usted con eso?
16. intr. Dicho de una cosa: Ocurrir, sobrevenir u ofrecerse de nuevo. Salir un empleo.
17. intr. Dicho de una cosa que se compra: Importar, costar. Me sale a veinte pesetas el metro de paño.
18. intr. Dicho de una cuenta: Resultar, de la oportuna operación aritmética, que está bien hecha o ajustada.
19. intr. Corresponder a cada uno en pago o ganancia una cantidad. Salimos A mil pesetas.
20. intr. Trasladarse dentro del lugar donde se está al sitio adecuado para realizar una actividad. Salir A bailar, A escena, A pronunciar un discurso.
21. intr. Mostrar o iniciar inesperadamente algo. Salir CON la pretensión, CON la demanda, CON la amenaza. U. t. c. prnl.
22. intr. Fiar, abonar, defender a alguien. Salió POR su amigo.
23. intr. Frecuentar, por motivos amorosos o amistosos, el trato de otra persona, fuera de su domicilio.
24. intr. En una función de teatro o en una película, representar, figurar o hacer un papel. Ella salió DE Doña Inés.
25. intr. Perder el uso de algo. Salió fuera de tino.
26. intr. Venir a ser, quedar. Salir vencedor. La sospecha salió falsa.
27. intr. Tener buen o mal éxito. Salir bien en los exámenes. La comedia salió bien.
28. intr. Dicho de un período de tiempo: fenecer. Hoy sale el verano.
29. intr. Dicho especialmente de los hijos respecto de sus padres o de los discípulos respecto de sus maestros: Parecerse, asemejarse. Este niño ha salido a su padre. Juan de Juanes salió a Rafael en su primera escuela.
30. intr. Apartarse, separarse de algo o faltar a ello en lo regular o debido. Salió de la regla, de tono. U. t. c. prnl.
31. intr. Cesar en un oficio o cargo. Pronto saldré de tutor.
32. intr. Ser elegido o sacado por suerte o votación. En la lotería salieron tales números. Antón ha salido alcalde.
33. intr. Ir a parar, tener salida a un punto determinado. Esta calle sale a la plaza.
34. intr. Mar. Dicho de una embarcación: Adelantarse a otra, aventajarla en andar cuando navegan juntas.
35. intr. Col. Dicho de una cosa: Armonizar con otra. La corbata no le sale con la camisa.
36. intr. Col. Dicho de una cosa: Ajustarse a un modelo establecido. Esa canta no salió.
37. prnl. Dicho del contenido de una vasija: Derramarse por una rendija o rotura.
38. prnl. Dicho de un líquido: Rebosar al hervir. Se ha salido la leche.
39. prnl. Dicho de una vasija o de un depósito: Tener alguna rendija o rotura por la cual se derrama el contenido. Este cántaro se sale.
40. prnl. En algunos juegos, hacer los tantos o las jugadas necesarios para ganar.
41. prnl. ant. Iniciar la intervención en un pleito o una causa como fiscal o como parte.
Quote: pacomartinI think the Spanish-English dictionaries are translating definition #37 in the RAE as "to leak".
And I still can't see it used that way.
But that's one reason learning a language in a language school only takes you so far. Again, you ahve to read, talk and see movies or TV in the language you're trying to learn.
Quote:If you take classes in Mexico you learn all kinds of things. I was surprised when one girl told me that ducharse is not said in Mexico. Mexicans prefer to say bañarse whereas the word "ducharse" is only common in Spain. That word is in every basic Spanish text, and I have never seen that in writing.
You learn if you travel, too. In many Spanish speaking countries, perhaps in Spain, too, "bañarse" means to swim or frolic in water, be it a pool, ocean, river, lake or fountain. People enjoying the beach are called "bañistas," for example.
In all places, I think, a bathroom is called "baño." But as in English public bathrooms are called restrooms or washrooms, so in Spanish they are variously referred to as "sanitarios," or "WC" (that's an old English term for a toilet). In mexico the term "baño público" is used, but only for facilities that provide showering and/or bathing facilities.
And there are tons and tons of such exceptions and regional differences.
Palabra: FIANZA
Someone's been remiss lately. Well, rather than keep arguing over the finer technical points of grammar, and what means what, Let's isntead tackle a new word.
Fianza is one of those double-duty words. It can mean "bail" but it can also mean "bond."
As bail it needs no further explanation. It's an amount of money or property deposited (not paid) to a court in order to secure one's release until the adjudication of criminal proceedings.
Now to the other definition of "bond." It means specifically a financial instrument used to secure a contract, shipment or other kind of exchange. Here's how it works. Suppose I contract Company X to supply me with nouns and adjectives on order for one year. They agree to fill my orders in 3 days, to be paid in 7 days after the receipt of the order and to exchange any defective words within two hours of being given notice (during business hours). In addition I ask for a guaranty in the amount of 5% of the nominal value of the contract.
So let's say the contract is worth $100,000. The guaranty would have a face value of $5,000. The contract would specify when I can make the guaranty effective, that is when I can take punitive action on Company X for various non-compliance issues, in the form of a payment of $5,000 and, usually, a unilateral rescicion of the contract. For this example let's suppose if X has three late or incomplete deliveries in a row, or more than five late or incompelte deliveries in a month, I can proceed to cash the guaranty and rescind the contract.
Now, the guaranty can be any number of things. A cashier's check, for example, or a certified check, or a bond, among other things (deposits, colalteral, etc). The bond, or fianza, works like an insurance policy. You pay a company, known as an afianzadora, a preium, once, and they assume the obligayion to pay me if you don't comply with the terms of the contract.
The advantage for Company X is that a check or deposit involves losing the use of the money for the duration of the contract. A bond means a one time payment for amuch lower amount. For a $5 grand bond, it would be around $150 or so. Also like all insurers, the afianzadora would try to negotiate a lower payment, or find a means to keep the contract going. It's an additional layer of legal protection, should Company X experience unexpected troubles in the nouns department (she said with a straight face).
There is a similar isntrument in America known as a bail bond. For all I know there are other type sof commercial, and more savory, types of bonds there too. In Mexico these types of bonds are more common in government contracts, but not exclusively so.
Anyway, enough about that. I guess the ejemplos are left to the alumnos again.
Ejempo time.
Yo fue detenido. Por favor, vienes a la cárcel y pagas mi fianza. = I was arrested. Please come to the jail and pay my bail.
Las Vegas Fianzas.
Quote: WizardI'm sure they are quite natural to Nareed, but they are a difficult concept to grasp when learning Spanish as a second language.
natural as breathing. if you keep track of it you find it hard to do.
Quote:Anyway, enough about that. I guess the ejemplos are left to the alumnos again.
I didn't think they were necessary. But, flashback to my English lessons, they were always required. So go ahead and put them in if it slips my mind.
Quote:Ejempo time.
Yo fue detenido. Por favor, vienes a la cárcel y pagas mi fianza. = I was arrested. Please come to the jail and pay my bail.
Very close. "you fuÍ detenido. Por favor VEN a la cárcel...."
You know, come to think of it in Spanish class in junio highschool the teacher assigned five words per day. We had to look them up in the dictionary, write down at leat a portion fo the definition and provide an example. Most people, myself included, used very simple examples. Stuff like "fuí a nadar ayer." Which irked the teacher no end (he was a strict, old man but very comeptent; I liked him). I'm glad to say you would have satisified that old task master fully, as you come up with elaborate sentences in the right context every time.
Yo fui detenido. Por favor venga a la cárcel y pagar mi fianza. - Correct, I think.
You want to use the first person, which is "fui". "Fue" is third person.
The second section is a command, and you need to use the "imperative" conjugation.
The third change was from a conjugated verb to an infinitive. There is a article on inifinitives after verbs
Quote: AlanMy expert concurs with your changing of fue to fui, however not changing the vienes to venga. For whatever it's worth.
Ven means "come" for the second person singular informal. Venga is the same for the formal pronoun. Either is correct, but I judged the Wizard was using an informal implied pronoun. So:
"Por favor ven a la cárcel y pagas mi fianza." or "Por favor venga a la cárcel y pague mi fianza."
Paco made another error using an infinitive verb by itself. He should have said either ""Por favor ven a la cárcel A pagar mi fianza." or "Por favor venga a la cárcel A pagar mi fianza."
Yo fui detenido. Por favor venga a la cárcel a pagar mi fianza. - Correct.
Palabra: RODEAR
Today's word, rodear means to circle around, go around something, or surround something. A related word is the adjective rodeo, meaning a detour around something. Perhaps this is where we get Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills, which is a little curvy, although lots of streets are in that hilly part of LA.
This makes me wonder if the English word rodeo is actually a Spanish word. At a rodeo the center is circular with the crowd surrounding it. Or maybe it is because the cowboy is trying to surround the calf to throw the rope around its neck. Maybe the rope itself is what the word rodeo refers to. Paco, this has your name written all over it.
Ejemplo time.
La viuda vieja está rodeada de gatos. = The old widow is surrounded by cats.
I'm not sure about the rodeada. I turned the verb into an adjective, so I think that is right. I could easily be wrong about the de. Por crosses my mind too.
