Thread Rating:

EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 2:31:16 PM permalink
Quote: JB

The knowledge that everything you do, say, and think is being watched and recorded at all times could indeed be considered "unwanted" knowledge.



I guess if you believe thats happening, then for you it
is. You have to behave accordingly.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
JB
Administrator
JB
  • Threads: 334
  • Posts: 2089
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 21st, 2011 at 2:38:08 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I guess if you believe thats happening, then for you it is. You have to behave accordingly.


It's happening to you too whether or not you realize it yet.

Quote: Nine Inch Nails

don't open your eyes, you won't like what you see
the devils of truth steal the souls of the free

EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 2:45:39 PM permalink
Quote: JB

It's happening to you too whether or not you realize it



Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm not going to worry about
it. Life is too short. If there's a god and he wants me, he
knows right where to find me.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
JB
Administrator
JB
  • Threads: 334
  • Posts: 2089
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 21st, 2011 at 2:51:54 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm not going to worry about it. Life is too short. If there's a god and he wants me, he knows right where to find me.


Now that statement, I like!

Have a good afternoon/evening.

-JB
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 3:37:20 PM permalink
Quote: JB

The knowledge that everything you do, say, and think is being watched and recorded at all times could indeed be considered "unwanted" knowledge. There are so many illusions in this world; privacy is only one of them.


Perhaps, but knowledge that privacy is an illusion is only bad if you think it's bad. Shakespeare wrote (in Hamlet): "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." That predates Byron Katie by over 400 years, but the premise is the same.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 3:44:33 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

If there's a god and he wants me, he knows right where to find me.



Hey, you're no atheist, you're an agnostic!
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 3:50:20 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Hey, you're no atheist, you're an agnostic!



I was being flippant.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 4:04:31 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I was being flippant.



God knows.
"What, me worry?"
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 7:28:42 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

..the human rises out of the water and says I am awesome! So are spiders and even horseshoe crabs, even though they freak me out, but nothing is even close to being as special as a human being.

So sayeth the Human Being. A cat thinks that it's the bees knees and the bees, well, they have those amazing knees.
Quote: FrGamble

I'm surprised this thought is so abhorrent to some of the atheists on the forum...

I guess I missed the part where an Atheist found the thought abhorrent, perhaps conceited but abhorrent is a bit harsh.
Quote: FrGamble

but it seems painfully obvious to most people that you, your neighbor, and the stranger down the street, and every human person is of inestimable value.

Atheists agree, I'm not sure where you're going with this
Quote: FrGamble

Since atheism does not have an answer to why we are so freaking cool, at least no one has given me an answer, we dive back into the water to pretend for a little while longer that we are just like everything else and no more special than the plankton.

Atheists don't need to manufacture an answer as to why we're so freaking cool although I'll offer that we are so freaking cool because we think we are so freaking cool or as Rene Descarte once put it, Cogito ergo Sum which roughly translates to "I'm so freaking cool because I think I'm so freaking cool." Atheists don't have to be bothered with invisible beardy friends that live in the sky. We're just freaking cool!
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 8:02:16 PM permalink
Religion is a crutch.

Atheism is neutral.
"What, me worry?"
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 214
  • Posts: 12411
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
December 21st, 2011 at 8:31:07 PM permalink
What if God does exist but sent a message that this was the only life and no particular message about meaning? Are all the believers going to go jump off a cliff then? Pout? What?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 5:48:50 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

But first, in the spirit of the discussion, let me pose a parable:

Two boys, Todd and Biff, are scheduled to take their final exam in math class. Todd is a straight-A student and, in addition to reading and learning all semester, has intensely studied for the past two weeks for this test. Biff is a slacker, hasn't even gone to half the classes, and is on the verge of failing. Todd arrives at the beginning of the exam hour, studiously works through all the multiple-choice problems, and carefully fills in the ovals on his standardized testing sheet. Todd finishes 15 minutes early. Biff arrives late, with just 10 minutes to spare. On his way past Todd's desk, he uses his phone to take a picture of Todd's scoresheet, then spends 5 minutes copying the answers onto his own. Naturally, the teacher doesn't see this and both students pass the final exam with exactly the same scores.

Now then, between Todd and Biff, whose achievements in passing the math test would you consider to be more impressive?



Sorry I've been a little busy lately but I wanted to get back to this parable and hear the conclusion, because I love parables and have much respect for ME.

I would say by leaps and bounds Todd's achievements are more impressive and would be hard pressed to even call Biff's actions achievements of any kind.
rpw612
rpw612
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 27
Joined: Dec 9, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 5:50:52 AM permalink
Mosca I can assure you that I saw the tape, he had received some scripture from someone and it made him really think. I'm not saying he converted.
One needs to make up there own mind, not listen to a celebrity, we all have free will. Merry Christmas. Rick
zippyboy
zippyboy
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 1124
Joined: Jan 19, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 9:13:40 AM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

Byron Katie teaches that things are as they are...


Jesus is to FrG as Byron Katie is to HotBlonde. Do you ever read anything else, HB?
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
  • Threads: 117
  • Posts: 2334
Joined: Feb 8, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 10:54:02 AM permalink
Wow... I leave for half a day and have so much to catch up on! Well here it goes...

Quote: EvenBob

Its a fact (look it up) that the
higher your IQ, the less chance there is you'll believe in
god. And the lower your IQ, the greater the chance you'll
be a believer. This begs the question, why is god so attractive
to stupid people.

I'm not surprised by this. I had a roommate one time who I was complaining to her about a boyfriend I had. He was a full-grown adult at that time, about 48 years old and I was complaining to her about how the stuff he would do or say in argument wouldn't make any sense to me as an adult myself (I was 29 or so at the time. Anyway she told me something about how high school-only educated people differed from college educated people (such as my self) in that those who are not college educated lack a sense of logic, amongst other mind-related sensibilities, that college educated people possess. She's a psychology major on her way to her PhD so I'm guessing that she knows what she's talking about. And by the way, my ex boyfriend watches a lot of tv and watches some pastor on tv who yells (yes, the pastor actually yells) about hell and how the end of the world is upon us and there are wars that are rising on this planet that are of the devil and it's all predicted in the scriptures and blah blah blah and my ex whole heartedly believes every word this man yells at his congregation and the world. I'm trying to remember his name. Pastor Hagee.

Quote: JB

Look, we all get it: you don't believe in a creator, that's your right. And you disagree with everyone and everything they say, fine. But why do you feel the need to word your disagreements in the most antagonizing manner possible? Is politeness beyond your capabilities?

Looking through your posting history, it seems the answer is obvious. There's a word for people like you.

Hi there, JB. I just want to say that in Bob's defense I don't think he's being too harsh. Number one he is writing on a blog titled "There is no God", number two I think he's saying what he has to say in a somewhat humorous way and at least to me he's not coming off like he's viciously attacking FrGamble, number three I've seen people comment on here, and in the other blogs as well, against FrGamble in a very mean fashion, way worse than the things Bob is saying, and number four I don't think that Bob's comments qualify him as a troll. I think you keep jabbing at him and it's not fair. If I remember correctly the Wizard has said that he values free speech and I don't think Bob is being out of bounds. Just my opinion.

Quote: JB

It's happening to you too whether or not you realize it yet.

Yikes. A little paranoid?

Quote: MathExtremist

Perhaps, but knowledge that privacy is an illusion is only bad if you think it's bad. Shakespeare wrote (in Hamlet): "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." That predates Byron Katie by over 400 years, but the premise is the same.

Yay! I agree with Shakespeare. Like I said previously, things are what they are. A label (good/bad/etc.) is just that... a label.

Quote: zippyboy

Jesus is to FrG as Byron Katie is to HotBlonde. Do you ever read anything else, HB?

I agree. And yes. I'm just in love with Katie, that's why I talk about her so much. Her Work has made a huge difference in my life. I don't know where I'd be without my discovery. But I love to read, and I usually read non-fiction. If anyone is up for reading "What The Bleep Do We Know?" I'm down to do a book club-type thingy. Don't know exactly how book clubs work but I'd love to pick up that book again and I think the book would make for some really interesting discussions.

And P.S. I'm glad JB and EvenBob are now getting along. My heart is warm with love.
OFFICIALLY and justifiably reclaimed my title as SuperHotBlonde!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:03:33 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I would say by leaps and bounds Todd's achievements are more impressive and would be hard pressed to even call Biff's actions achievements of any kind.


Todd discovered the answers through his own efforts, Biff had the answers handed to him. You are more impressed by the former.

Now consider that Todd is an allegory for a humanity evolved independently of any omnipotent influence, and Biff is an allegory for a humanity purpose-built by a Creator. Why are you more impressed by the latter?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:57:39 PM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

If anyone is up for reading "What The Bleep Do We Know?" I'm down to do a book club-type thingy. Don't know exactly how book clubs work but I'd love to pick up that book again and I think the book would make for some really interesting discussions.



Everyone reads the book for a certain date and then discusses it (in person normally). Then you discover 2/3rds of the group didn't actually read it, 2 people are bickering about the coffee fund and another 2 would prefer to gossip about a third who isn't actually there...

More seriously, I'd quite like to read that book. I wonder if I can find an electronic copy somewhere...

I'll add my main reason though is to take a skeptical, de-constructive look at it.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
  • Threads: 117
  • Posts: 2334
Joined: Feb 8, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:08:19 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

More seriously, I'd quite like to read that book. I wonder if I can find an electronic copy somewhere...

I'll add my main reason though is to take a skeptical, de-constructive look at it.

I'm not sure if there's an electronic copy of it. There could be, but the book, although a very adult-minded book, is in color and has an enormous amount of graphics and stuff that go along with the text. And no matter what your motive is to read it that's ok. The book even says that it's not there to necessarily answer questions but to think about the questions that are brought up with in the book, such as what is reality? and such. It's a book I'm looking forward to picking up again but at the same time aprehensive as I'm scared that I'll go bonkers reading it. It really talks about a lot of out-there ideas and quantum physics-type stuff.

Try reviewing the book on Amazon.com. I'm going to go there right now. Damn! I should've put that on my Christmas WishList. I'll have to get a copy myself.
OFFICIALLY and justifiably reclaimed my title as SuperHotBlonde!
Mosca
Mosca
  • Threads: 191
  • Posts: 4140
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:58:15 PM permalink
Quote: rpw612


One needs to make up there own mind, not listen to a celebrity, we all have free will. Merry Christmas. Rick



That's how I got to where I am today. I'm a free thinker.
A falling knife has no handle.
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 2:00:21 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Todd discovered the answers through his own efforts, Biff had the answers handed to him. You are more impressed by the former.

Now consider that Todd is an allegory for a humanity evolved independently of any omnipotent influence, and Biff is an allegory for a humanity purpose-built by a Creator. Why are you more impressed by the latter?



Todd discovered the answers by listening to a teacher. Biff tired to do everything on his own by his own power.

I think Todd represents the state of humanity under the influence of the divine. In your parable God is the unseen and omnipotent teacher without which Todd would not have had a chance to pass the test. In my mind Biff is an allegory for a humanity who tries to do things without any help. He says, "I'm my own man, I don't need to listen to nobody" and does it his own way and under his own power. Biff doesn't listen to a teacher who has been around a lot longer and knows a lot more than Biff does. I am much more impressed with Todd's way of doing things.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 2:29:22 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

In your parable God is the unseen and omnipotent teacher without which Todd would not have had a chance to pass the test.


If you can't even conceive of a good student passing a math test without divine intervention, we're so far apart in worldview that fruitful conversation on this topic may be impossible.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 2:48:59 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Todd discovered the answers by listening to a teacher. Biff tired to do everything on his own by his own power.



This is the Catholic mindset of old, rearing its head. For
hundreds of years Catholics only taught select members
of the Church how to read and write, there were no Catholic
schools for the common people. They wanted the public
kept in the dark and kept ignorant so they would have to
listen to the priests if they wanted to know anything. They
discouraged original thought, inventiveness, or doing
anything on your own. If you broke the rules you were punished
severely.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 5:49:18 PM permalink
ME, I am simply saying that Todd had a teacher. You said that Todd was an allegory of humanity free from any omnipotent divinity. I am simply saying that what you may be forgetting is that Todd and all of us need help to pass the test. Todd had a teacher and he had textbooks that helped him. Therefore I think instead of seeing him as independent of any divine help you could just as easily see that Todd is an allegory for the help we need as humanity to be successful.

I can't conceive of a good student passing a math test without some help, through a teacher, a tutor, and good book to study from. I also can't conceive of humanity passing the test without some help, through a teacher and a good book. I hope we can talk about it still.
zippyboy
zippyboy
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 1124
Joined: Jan 19, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 5:52:13 PM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

If anyone is up for reading "What The Bleep Do We Know?" I'm down to do a book club-type thingy.


I saw it in the theater when it came out. Fascinating flick.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
  • Threads: 117
  • Posts: 2334
Joined: Feb 8, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 5:54:44 PM permalink
Quote: zippyboy

I saw it in the theater when it came out. Fascinating flick.

Yeah I borrowed the DVD from the library. It was good, in my opinion, but not excellent. And I'm talking about the general production of the movie. But I did love the concepts that the movie talked about. They go into way more depth in the book on these and similar concepts. I also liked what they showed about the water crystals. Do you remember that part? What did you think about that, zippy?
OFFICIALLY and justifiably reclaimed my title as SuperHotBlonde!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 6:06:31 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I can't conceive of a good student passing a math test without some help, through a teacher, a tutor, and good book to study from. I also can't conceive of humanity passing the test without some help, through a teacher and a good book. I hope we can talk about it still.


Right -- and the humans of the previous generation are those teachers and wrote those books. That's what our species does -- we learn, change, evolve. From the cosmic stuff stars are made of to the hardware engineer who designed your computer (and to Todd the math student).

The question is really this: Given what humanity has achieved, why do you think those achievements are more impressive if they were guided by divine intervention than if we had accomplished them all by ourselves? You don't think someone in a math test being handed the answers is as impressive as someone figuring it out by themselves -- so why the flip-flop when it comes to the bigger picture?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 22nd, 2011 at 8:11:45 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Right -- and the humans of the previous generation are those teachers and wrote those books. That's what our species does -- we learn, change, evolve. From the cosmic stuff stars are made of to the hardware engineer who designed your computer (and to Todd the math student).

The question is really this: Given what humanity has achieved, why do you think those achievements are more impressive if they were guided by divine intervention than if we had accomplished them all by ourselves? You don't think someone in a math test being handed the answers is as impressive as someone figuring it out by themselves -- so why the flip-flop when it comes to the bigger picture?



I'm usually the one falling into gross simplifications of people's beliefs but I think your description of religion as giving someone the answers is a very poor one. Religion doesn't give us the answer and tells us to sit on the couch and do nothing (like your Biff character). Religion provides a worldview that inspires us to achieve, change, explore, and search. It is the framework that supports and makes possible our achievements. I don't see God giving us the answers to the cosmic stuff stars are made of, but because God made them it is worthy of our attempts to figure it out and learn more about this amazing universe God has given us. The fact that what we do to make life better for us here on earth echos through eternity should inspire hardware engineers to do the best they can and use their gifts to design the best darn computer possible. Our achievements are awesome and very impressive but not because they were accomplished all by ourselves or because they dropped down from Heaven like an angelic answer key, they are impressive because they deepen our knowledge of a universe that is worthy of study and that doing the best we can as an engineer or anything is worth it, not just for ourselves or for our short lifetime, but for everyone and for eternity. These are all thoughts reinforced by a religious understanding of the Divine.

The questions is really this: How does the idea that there is no God inspire us to achieve, learn, change, and evolve? Do you think Todd left by himself with no assistance from the Divine or anyone else and with a worldview that the universe and all within it just happened to exist would gravitate towards trying to deepen his knowledge of the universe and help his fellow man or would he rather eat potato chips and lay on the couch?
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 214
  • Posts: 12411
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 8:52:47 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The questions is really this: How does the idea that there is no God inspire us to achieve, learn, change, and evolve?



So, again, if God appeared and announced that life had no extension beyond this, and there was no special meaning...you would do what?

My life would go on, no special changes. Unless all the nutcases started going crazy because God appeared and disapointed them, then maybe I'd have to live in what apocalypse they created.

I would then be a theist then (the next day because a god revealed himself), but I need no special meaning from a god, whether one exists or not.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 9:35:47 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I'm usually the one falling into gross simplifications of people's beliefs but I think your description of religion as giving someone the answers is a very poor one. Religion doesn't give us the answer and tells us to sit on the couch and do nothing (like your Biff character).

The questions is really this: How does the idea that there is no God inspire us to achieve, learn, change, and evolve? Do you think Todd left by himself with no assistance from the Divine or anyone else and with a worldview that the universe and all within it just happened to exist would gravitate towards trying to deepen his knowledge of the universe and help his fellow man or would he rather eat potato chips and lay on the couch?


I think you've missed the point. In the story, both Todd and Biff passed the test with equal scores. The only difference is how they did it: Todd learned the material through studying; Biff had the answers handed to him. The metaphor is a simple one: how did we get to where we are? Todd is the human condition evolved through its own efforts, Biff is the same human condition with the benefit of an omnipotent outside force. And indeed, one of the primary purposes of religion is to provide answers to such questions: "How did we get here" has been answered (in myriad different forms) by religions throughout history. It has also been answered, to the best of science's ability, by disciplines as varied as astrophysics and paleobiology. Your suggestion seems specious in view of the many churches which repeatedly proclaim "Christ is the Answer."

But more importantly, your second question is off-base. The idea that there is or is not God is very recent. Unless you actually believe that the universe is only 5772 years old, and presumably you do not, you must recognize that human evolutionary development predates religion by hundreds of thousands of years. Humans got from the stuff of stars to here mostly without any concept of God or religion. Therefore, it cannot be true that knowledge of God is necessary to inspire us to achieve, learn, change, and evolve. It may be necessary for *you*, but cannot be universally so.

It is true is that many believers do draw inspiration from their concept of divinity, but it is equally true that (a) many without religion also achieve, learn, change, and evolve, as well as (b) many religious faithful lay on the couch eating potato chips. Given this, my view is that human achievement is not causally-related to religion or faith; the two are orthogonal. And given the evidence for that lack of causality, specifically that many have achieved great things without faith, why do you believe that a concept of the divine is necessary for human achievement or development?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Keyser
Keyser
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 2112
Joined: Apr 16, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 9:51:33 PM permalink
Quote: Mathextremist

But more importantly, your second question is off-base. The idea that there is or is not God is very recent. Unless you actually believe that the universe is only 5772 years old, and presumably you do not, you must recognize that human evolutionary development predates religion by hundreds of thousands of years.


I hope you understand that a very high percentage of us that DO believe in god DON'T believe that the universe is only 5572 years old. You're primarily referring to the fanatics/ evangelicals. On the contrary many of us actually believe that science, including evolution help provide insight into god's work. I believe the Catholics are also on board with that belief. I for one, believe the Universe is about 13.7 billion years old and that it's likely part of a larger multiverse and that there's no disputing evolution. Furthermore the fine structure of the graphene atom and quantum mechanics provides demonstrates some proof that our universe/multiverse was engineered by god.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 10:41:30 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

I hope you understand that a very high percentage of us that DO believe in god DON'T believe that the universe is only 5572 years old. You're primarily referring to the fanatics/ evangelicals. On the contrary many of us actually believe that science, including evolution help provide insight into god's work. I believe the Catholics are also on board with that belief. I for one, believe the Universe is about 13.7 billion years old and that it's likely part of a larger multiverse and that there's no disputing evolution. Furthermore the fine structure of the graphene atom and quantum mechanics provides demonstrates some proof that our universe/multiverse was engineered by god.


That's beside the point. The point is that regardless of whether "God did it" or "we did it ourselves", we clearly didn't need to know about it in order to get where we are. Certainly to get to where we were 6000 years ago.

But the more important question is whether you'd find it more impressive if "God did it" or "we did it ourselves". That was the premise of my allegory, though I appear to have missed the mark.

I'm not sure why you think the structure of graphene (which is carbon atoms arranged into a hexagonal grid) is proof that the universe was engineered at all, let alone by a divine being, but let's skip that question and get back to the first one:

Would you find the achievements of humankind more or less impressive if they were achieved by humankind alone than if they were directed by an omnipotent divinity?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Keyser
Keyser
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 2112
Joined: Apr 16, 2010
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:00:18 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

That's beside the point. The point is that regardless of whether "God did it" or "we did it ourselves", we clearly didn't need to know about it in order to get where we are. Certainly to get to where we were 6000 years ago



Both!

Actually I find the fact that bacteria helped us evolve to this level to be quite impressive.
TheNightfly
TheNightfly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 480
Joined: May 21, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 12:21:49 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist


Would you find the achievements of humankind more or less impressive if they were achieved by humankind alone than if they were directed by an omnipotent divinity?

Who ever said the achievements of mankind were directed by an omnipotent divinity? If God gives humans free will then we may all do as we please. If God says, "Do what you like on earth and if you follow some simple rules along the way you may enter my kingdom when your physical life ends" (I'm paraphrasing of course...) then all of the achievements of humanity are still done by the free will of those billions of souls who have come before us.

I find many of the achievements of humankind to be wondrous and incredible yet at the same time I find other achievements to be spectacularly horrifying. God lets us do what we will. God does not stop the volcano or the earthquake or the tsunami because that's just the earth doing her thing and along the way some humans experienced pain and loss and death. We're all going to die people, it's only a matter of time. Some deaths are worse than others I suppose but it's going to happen one way or another.

It's what we do while we're here that makes a difference. I couldn't care less if you invent a perpetual motion machine and call yourself an atheist or if you blow up a grade school and call yourself a Christian. What's in your heart and mind is for you and God to know (or for you alone if you don't think there is a God) and your actions on earth can be great and grand or small and insignificant regardless of any affiliation or belief you may have. Enough with the titles and names.

A football coach can draw up a game plan and prepare his team but when his wide receiver is in the air between 2 defenders and catches the ball and drags half the opposing team with him over the goal line, all the coach can do is stand there and smile and realize that he's got a WR with talent who works darn hard to achieve his goal. I like to look at God in the same way - He's given us some guidance (conscience) and and game plan (bible) and now it's up to us to use our own abilities to see what we can do. He does tell us very clearly however that there is more after this life and it's up to us whether or not we want to go that little bit more. Even if we say "NO" to that offer, we still have a life to live, as we choose.
Happiness is underrated
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 4:19:14 AM permalink
I was with TheNightfly, right up until the game plan. Have you read the game plan? It turns out that coach is a psychotic mass murderer who will kill you right here on Earth or he'll have His minions kill you if you wear cloth of two different fibers! He'll kill you or have you murdered for making fun of bald people! It turns out that Coach is evil.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
TheNightfly
TheNightfly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 480
Joined: May 21, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 9:46:43 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

I was with TheNightfly, right up until the game plan. Have you read the game plan? It turns out that coach is a psychotic mass murderer who will kill you right here on Earth or he'll have His minions kill you if you wear cloth of two different fibers! He'll kill you or have you murdered for making fun of bald people! It turns out that Coach is evil.

Yes, I've read the game plan. I'm not sure where someone might be killed if not here on Earth and I'm pretty sure that if you read the New Testament you'll see that there is very little in the way of being killed for wearing cloth of 2 different fibers (that was from Leviticus and Deuteronomy) and you may wish to take note of the group to whom this was being addressed and why. The second book of Kings is also from the Old Testament and apparently God dealt with things differently back then.

Whether or not you think what God did is good or right or proper or justifiable is irrelevant for someone who professes to believe that there is no God. So, either there is a God and you are angry with the way He does things (which is perfectly reasonable) or there is no God and you just feel like stirring the pot by saying that the God you believe doesn't exist is very, very bad. Nice.

So, for now let's leave the bible out of the discussion and just stick with free will. Free will to do and be anything you choose. And yes, when you die it will happen to you right here on Earth (at least until space exploration becomes a bit more mainstream).
Happiness is underrated
discflicker
discflicker
  • Threads: 31
  • Posts: 459
Joined: Jan 1, 2011
December 23rd, 2011 at 9:59:58 AM permalink
Howdy everyone!

I've been working on some new books and stuff since the Tsunami.

I have all of the answers you all seek right here. And unlike your minister, who lives in a big house on the hill, all of my words are totally free of charge and for the good of ALL mankind.

(1): How the Universe was created:


From The Side of God
(Pure scientific conjecture written for religious people to understand, but for everyone to enjoy)
http://spikersystems.com/FlashNet_Pointer/www/projects/Martys_World/FromTheSideOfGod.htm


(2): Recent "discoveries" disproving the theory of relativity:


Moments in Time
http://spikersystems.com/FlashNet_Pointer/www/projects/Martys_World/HTML_MomentsInTime.htm

An open letter to J. Gregory Moxness of "Theory of Everything"
http://spikersystems.com/FlashNet_Pointer/www/projects/Martys_World/LettersToOthers/GregMoxness.htm

Flat Out Disproving Relativity in 120 Minutes
http://spikersystems.com/FlashNet_Pointer/www/projects/Martys_World/HTML_FlatOutDisprovingRelativityIn120Minutes.htm


(3): Why the Universe was created:


Perpetual Life: The eye of the Octopus – What Reality Really Could Be
http://spikersystems.com/FlashNet_Pointer/www/projects/Martys_World/HTML-PerpetualLife-TheEyeOfTheOctopuss.htm
(Marty's sensible delusions, answering your questions about God and the afterlife…)


ENJOY!

marty
discflicker.com
The difference between zero and the smallest possible number? It doesn't matter; once you cross that edge, it might as well be the difference between zero and 1. The difference between infinity and reality? They are mutually exclusive.
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 23rd, 2011 at 10:49:55 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

I was with TheNightfly, right up until the game plan. Have you read the game plan? It turns out that coach is a psychotic mass murderer who will kill you right here on Earth or he'll have His minions kill you if you wear cloth of two different fibers! He'll kill you or have you murdered for making fun of bald people! It turns out that Coach is evil.



I don't know what kind of coach you are listening to, you've got to switch teams. The game plan for the real coach is that you live for ever in happiness and peace. The coach forgives you of your sins and is always with you to help you overcome the difficulties the opposing forces might throw against you. The Coach Jesus is goodness incarnate, literally.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 10:52:04 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The Coach Jesus is goodness incarnate



Sigh....
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
DeadRats
DeadRats
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 51
Joined: Dec 13, 2011
December 23rd, 2011 at 10:55:11 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble
The Coach Jesus is goodness incarnate

Tell that to the 6 year old dying of cancer or Annette Funicello !
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 11:12:00 AM permalink
Quote: DeadRats

Quote: FrGamble
The Coach Jesus is goodness incarnate
Tell that to the 6 year old dying of cancer or Annette Funicello !



Its a selling point, like a used car salesmen. "It
was only driven to church once a week by a little
old lady." Jesus is anything you want him to be,
he's very versatile. One size fits all.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
December 23rd, 2011 at 11:15:07 AM permalink
I can say to them that God's love lasts forever and that this passing world is not all there is. I can tell them about eternal life in Heaven where there will be no more sickness or pain. I can tell them that God is with them right now to help them in their suffering to strengthen them and give them hope.

Just out of curiosity what would an atheist have to say to the dying 6 year old or Annette?
DeadRats
DeadRats
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 51
Joined: Dec 13, 2011
December 23rd, 2011 at 11:18:29 AM permalink
One thing he would not say is " God's will works in mysterious ways" !!!!

Why did you assume I was an atheist? I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you truly believe in YOUR God!
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 11:24:52 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Just out of curiosity what would an atheist have to say to the dying 6 year old or Annette?



I don't know about Annette, but a dying 6 year old
still believes in Santa, anything to make them feel
better is fine.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 11:49:54 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I don't know what kind of coach you are listening to, you've got to switch teams. The game plan for the real coach is that you live for ever in happiness and peace. The coach forgives you of your sins and is always with you to help you overcome the difficulties the opposing forces might throw against you. The Coach Jesus is goodness incarnate, literally.

Tell that to the fig tree that Jesus murdered simply because he was feeling a little peckish and it wasn't producing ripe fruit in April.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 29023
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 12:10:32 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Tell that to the fig tree that Jesus murdered simply because he was feeling a little peckish and it wasn't producing ripe fruit in April.



Lets not start getting into what the Bible actually says,
it just confuses those trying to sell the 'message'..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
victorimmature
victorimmature
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Aug 29, 2011
December 23rd, 2011 at 2:54:19 PM permalink
Of course there is a God.
His name is Higgs & he uses Bosuns to pull the strings that help keep the universe afloat.
萬歲言論自由。
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
December 23rd, 2011 at 8:02:39 PM permalink
Quote: victorimmature

Of course there is a God.
His name is Higgs & he uses Bosuns to pull the strings that help keep the universe afloat.

Dr. Peter Higgs, who is still alive, would probably deny being a God.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
victorimmature
victorimmature
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Aug 29, 2011
December 23rd, 2011 at 9:28:56 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Dr. Peter Higgs, who is still alive, would probably deny being a God.


You would hope so.
There are plenty of others around who are prepared to take on the role, though.
萬歲言論自由。
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
December 24th, 2011 at 5:49:02 PM permalink
Let's Go Caroling :)
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 214
  • Posts: 12411
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
December 24th, 2011 at 7:11:56 PM permalink
If nothing else, I learned something today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humbug

Never looked it up before.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
  • Jump to: