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DeadRats
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December 27th, 2011 at 1:51:37 PM permalink
masturbating is redundant !
EvenBob
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December 27th, 2011 at 6:17:13 PM permalink
Lot of important stuff here FrG has to address.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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December 27th, 2011 at 8:21:21 PM permalink
OK, I sort of understand how a man "spilling his seed" is taking away from god that which is his due; semen should go to the womb.

While I disagree, I understand.

But what about when women masturbate?

No "seed" being spilled there.

Why would THAT be analytically problematical for a devout Christian?

If "It is better to cast your seed in the belly of a whore than to spill it on the ground," why then, can't the whore rub her clit with impunity?
"What, me worry?"
Nareed
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December 27th, 2011 at 8:57:13 PM permalink
Come on now, there's no need to invade FrGamble's privacy. Questions of sexuality, or lack thereof, are personal. if he doens't want to talk about it you should all respect that.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
rxwine
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December 28th, 2011 at 6:08:27 PM permalink
It occurred to me that the same reasoning people apply to believing in god can be applied to ghosts and UFOs. Or it should be true, even if it isn't.

For some reason, less credibility is given to first hand accounts on UFOs, unlike religious experiences and accounts like rising from the dead.

When a light in the sky cannot be ruled out as a UFO by definite proof of some man made event like a rocket or absolutely confirmed as an atmospheric event why don't billions of people assume this it good enough evidence of a flying ship like you do constantly with your religious beliefs?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
HotBlonde
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December 29th, 2011 at 5:16:24 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

It occurred to me that the same reasoning people apply to believing in god can be applied to ghosts and UFOs. Or it should be true, even if it isn't.

For some reason, less credibility is given to first hand accounts on UFOs, unlike religious experiences and accounts like rising from the dead.

When a light in the sky cannot be ruled out as a UFO by definite proof of some man made event like a rocket or absolutely confirmed as an atmospheric event why don't billions of people assume this it good enough evidence of a flying ship like you do constantly with your religious beliefs?

Good point. I don't know if you're specifically asking FrGamble but I'm guessing he's given up on this thread.
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EvenBob
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December 29th, 2011 at 5:41:11 PM permalink
This might be too much for him to handle.

Naw..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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December 29th, 2011 at 6:47:56 PM permalink
It could be that the compelling arguments from the atheists here have shaken his faith so badly that he is out wandering alone in the wilderness, searching for The Answer.

Or, he could be passed out drunk somewhere.

Either way, he'd be better off.
"What, me worry?"
s2dbaker
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December 30th, 2011 at 6:20:57 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

It could be that the compelling arguments from the atheists here have shaken his faith so badly that he is out wandering alone in the wilderness, searching for The Answer.

Or, he could be passed out drunk somewhere.

Either way, he'd be better off.

Were it that easy..

You can not shake a person out if believing in their invisible friend that easily. I don't care to do that either. I'm going to paint with a rather broad brushstroke here but the very same people who cling so maniacally to their gods and goddesses would otherwise not instinctively known the difference between a good thing and a bad thing unless it was obvious. When FrGamble says that atheists believe that there is nothing special about life, he's projecting. Without his gods, he would think that way and that would be dangerous for the rest of us.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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December 30th, 2011 at 10:13:34 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

When FrGamble says that atheists believe that there is nothing special about life, he's projecting. .



Many religious people are like alcoholics, they can't
imagine life without the drug. God is very much a
drug, and a powerful one too. You can become just
as dependant on it as heroin. It can be just as
destructive, look at Jim Jones or David Koresh. Because
their lives would be empty without their addiction, they
can't fathom how your life can be fulfilling without it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
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December 30th, 2011 at 11:35:46 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Were it that easy..

You can not shake a person out if believing in their invisible friend that easily. I don't care to do that either. I'm going to paint with a rather broad brushstroke here but the very same people who cling so maniacally to their gods and goddesses would otherwise not instinctively known the difference between a good thing and a bad thing unless it was obvious. When FrGamble says that atheists believe that there is nothing special about life, he's projecting. Without his gods, he would think that way and that would be dangerous for the rest of us.



Have no fear I haven't gone off the deep end and started thinking something crazy like there is no God. However, if I did you still would have nothing to fear because for as long as I can remember I have always thought this world and our life to be super amazing. Even before my conversion and becoming religious I loved life but never really took it too seriously to think about it. I was way too involved in an attempt at a sports career. Anyway eventually I thought about how awesome we are as human beings and how awesome this world is in which we live and I came to the obvious (at least for me) conclusion that there is a creator God. Then the rest is history. By now I have been too much intoxicated or s2dbaker might want to use the word infected with Christianity, it is part of who I am and even take away God, heaven or hell, I could not imagine living in any other way than the way taught to me by Christ.
However, I would be very worried about the danger posed to all of us from those who either do not see the beauty of life and have chosen to believe there is no God or for those who really take seriously their atheism and have come to believe that this world isn't that important or special nor is the life of themselves or others. For these people the meaning of good and bad has lost its mooring and is either centered on self or non-existent at all. That is a very bad thing.
s2dbaker
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December 30th, 2011 at 11:45:14 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

..However, I would be very worried about the danger posed to all of us from those who either do not see the beauty of life and have chosen to believe there is no God or for those who really take seriously their atheism and have come to believe that this world isn't that important or special nor is the life of themselves or others. For these people the meaning of good and bad has lost its mooring and is either centered on self or non-existent at all. That is a very bad thing.

I guess that's the difference between us. You think that people, without gods, are inherently bad. I however have a little more "faith" in people.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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December 30th, 2011 at 11:48:06 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble


However, I would be very worried about the danger posed to all of us from those who either do not see the beauty of life



People see life how they see it. Why is it so important
everybody see's life just like you do? That would be
just weird.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
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December 30th, 2011 at 12:59:40 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

I guess that's the difference between us. You think that people, without gods, are inherently bad. I however have a little more "faith" in people.



I too have Faith in people and I do NOT think that people who do not believe in the Divine are inherently bad, after all they are a child of God. I'm just trying to respond to your kind concern for me and what you perceive as my unhealthy and negative view of the world. I am only saying that regardless or not if people are atheists or religious, I would be more worried about those who do not see the inherent beauty in creation and in human life than those who do see both as glorious. I am also saying that I would be more worried about someone who does not think there is objective right and wrong or sees themselves as the arbiter of morality than someone who looks to a higher power than themselves. I am also only saying that I would be more concerned with someone who does not believe in the afterlife than with someone who thinks what they do makes a difference where they will spend eternity. I'm glad however that it looks like we may have inadvertently found a little piece of common ground we can stand together on, namely our faith in people, including each other.
RogerKint
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December 30th, 2011 at 1:28:07 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I too have Faith in people and I do NOT think that people who do not believe in the Divine are inherently bad, after all they are a child of God.



Let's keep it real. I know Christians who would vehemently disagree with that statement. I know Christians who say that is the exact reason for the plight of modern civilization. They argue that we put too much faith in humans and our democracy has conditioned us to think that morality is relative. I thought somewhere in the Bible that it talked about only believers (mostly Jews) being children of God while nonbelievers are children of the devil. Someone even called Jesus "good" and he said "Why do you call me good? There is only one that is good and that is the Father in heaven." The whole premise of Christianity is that mankind was created perfect but with our free-will we chose to sin. Now we are flawed/cursed and need the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins in order to be accepted in to the Kingdom of God. So considering this how can you both be a Christian and also have faith in human non-believers? The Bible has very strong words for non-believers and gentiles.
100% risk of ruin
EvenBob
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December 30th, 2011 at 1:31:29 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I am also only saying that I would be more concerned with someone who does not believe in the afterlife than with someone who thinks what they do makes a difference where they will spend eternity.



Eternity isn't a place, eternity is now. You're right in
the middle of it. I'll say it again, life isn't a Parker Bros
game.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
HotBlonde
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December 30th, 2011 at 2:24:33 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Because their lives would be empty without their addiction, they can't fathom how your life can be fulfilling without it.

Not only is this true but very poetic.

I often wonder how much of a person's commitment to their doctine comes from really, truly, actually believing that what they believe is true and how much of it comes from just purely being obstinate. I was pretty gung ho over the whole Jesus and Bible thing when I was a believer but I stayed pretty stubborn in my professed beliefs even though I always had doubts, even in the slightest bit.
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EvenBob
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December 30th, 2011 at 2:35:46 PM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

but I stayed pretty stubborn in my professed beliefs even though I always had doubts, even in the slightest bit.



Many Christian sects won't let you read books about
other doctrines, or deal with people who aren't like
them. They know how shakey Christianity is, how you
can be thrown off track easily, especially if you're new.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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December 30th, 2011 at 4:11:08 PM permalink
What kind of god would crucify his own son?

"Jesus, if you don't clean up your room ... so help me me, I'll crucify you!"
"What, me worry?"
rxwine
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December 30th, 2011 at 6:29:42 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

The Bible has very strong words for non-believers and gentiles.



And that's a good reason atheists/agnostics can have a big pissing contest over someone else's religious belief instead of just letting it pass as benign.

(I think my response was for a comment in the other thread though)

If I believe in the tooth fairy but think the tooth fairy boils non-believers in oil, someone should be calling me out on that.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
EvenBob
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December 30th, 2011 at 6:43:31 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

And that's a good reason atheists/agnostics can have a big pissing contest over someone else's religious belief instead of just letting it pass as benign.



Why? They never let what we believe pass as benign.
And you can't have a pissing contest alone, it takes
two to tango.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
s2dbaker
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December 30th, 2011 at 8:44:33 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Why? They never let what we believe pass as benign.
And you can't have a pissing contest alone, it takes
two to tango.

I was willing to ignore that before it turned into a urination contest. :)
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
boymimbo
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December 30th, 2011 at 9:15:07 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Eternity isn't a place, eternity is now. You're right in
the middle of it. I'll say it again, life isn't a Parker Bros
game.



And you know this how?
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
EvenBob
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December 30th, 2011 at 9:18:13 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

And you know this how?



You think life is a Parker Bros game? What playing
piece are you?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
s2dbaker
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December 30th, 2011 at 9:20:15 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You think life is a Parker Bros game? What playing
piece are you?

Colonel Mustard with the Candlestick in the Conservatory :)
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
boymimbo
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December 30th, 2011 at 9:25:54 PM permalink
If it's the game of Life, they only had different color cars. I was the blue car.

No one possesses any proof of an afterlife, nor does anyone have proof that there is no afterlife. Choose what you believe, but you don't truly know. No one does.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
EvenBob
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December 30th, 2011 at 9:33:00 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Choose what you believe, but you don't truly know. No one does.



Ever know anybody that died? Do you worry
about them? Do you wonder where they are
or if they're OK? Ever hear anybody say they're
worried about somebody who died 10 years
ago?

Its like we instinctively know there's more to life
than what we see in front of our noses. We know
those who've died are fine.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Mosca
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December 31st, 2011 at 5:46:07 AM permalink
I was under the impression that the pissing contest came about because the participants were enjoying it....
A falling knife has no handle.
MathExtremist
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December 31st, 2011 at 3:09:49 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

Let's keep it real. I know Christians who would vehemently disagree with that statement. I know Christians who say that is the exact reason for the plight of modern civilization. They argue that we put too much faith in humans and our democracy has conditioned us to think that morality is relative.


You imply that you do not think morality is relative. What do you think about slavery, then? How do you reconcile modern laws (and current Church teachings) regarding slavery with the laws regarding slavery that G-d set forth to Moses on Mt. Sinai? Read Exodus 21 for the details. Just as an example, the Bible says it's okay to sell your daughter to someone else as a servant. US Federal law makes that illegal, so there's a direct contradiction. If morality is objective, which law (US or Biblical) is moral?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
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December 31st, 2011 at 3:42:13 PM permalink
These are some of the laws of Moses that Jesus cherished and
never spoke against.

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master"

So the slave owner gets to keep any
kids they have. Nice deal, huh.

"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."

So its OK to beat your slaves every day
if you like, just don't kill them. What
a kind and just society. This must have
been hunky dory with Jesus, he never
said not to do it.

"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do."

If you bought a girl as a slave, you didn't have to let
her go after 6 years, you could keep her forever.
Jesus embraced all these teachings and encouraged
people to read the scriptures every day. If he
was god incarnate, why didn't he know slavery
is an abomination. Just because it was an accepted
practice doesn't make it any less of a human rights
violation. The silence on Jesus part speaks volumes
about who he really was..

Here's what Paul said about slavery:

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves."

Nothing about masters releasing their slaves,
nothing about how owning another human
is unChristian. Jesus and his apostles and
followers clearly endorsed the practice, saw
nothing at all wrong with it. Nice, huh..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Keyser
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December 31st, 2011 at 4:05:44 PM permalink
Evenbob,

We get it. You're bitter, you're broke, you hate your fellow man, and you hate god because you blame him for the cards that you've been dealt in life.
EvenBob
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December 31st, 2011 at 4:09:21 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

and you hate god



Kinda tough to hate something that
doesn't exist. Pretty tough to love, also.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
s2dbaker
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December 31st, 2011 at 4:18:27 PM permalink
Also, since Jesus believed that He was one leg of the stool of Trinity, then He believe that He was the guy who ordered two she bears to murder 42 children for making fun of a bald guy. But that's not that bad considering that He was also the guy who ordered the murder of every single man, woman and child if they were an Amalekite as well as all of their farm animals. And that's not even that bad if you consider that every man, woman and child on the face of this Earth was murdered in a rainstorm that He unleashed that lasted 40 days and nights because He didn't like the way He was being worshiped.

Class act, that Jesus!
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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December 31st, 2011 at 4:31:31 PM permalink
"Jesus never belittled Scripture, or set it aside, or criticized it, or contradicted it, or opposed it, nor spoke in any way as “higher” critics do of the Old Testament." Jesus believed every word of the OT was inspired by god. He had it all memorized, he quoted it all the time and NEVER contradicted any of it. The OT is rampant with human rights violations, which apparently were just fine with the Son of God. Thats OK, just so we know where he stood.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MathExtremist
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December 31st, 2011 at 5:14:46 PM permalink
I'd actually like to read a considered reply to the question rather than have the conversation sidetracked with a "bash Jesus" session. This has nothing to do with Jesus; Moses was at Sinai roughly 1500 years before Jesus was born.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
FrGamble
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December 31st, 2011 at 5:33:27 PM permalink
Seriously you guys are you going to keep up the same tired arguments into the new year? It is hard to see people over and over again incorrectly quoting Scripture about everything from the Trinity to slavery and taking certain passages out of context and in a literal way that should be taken in many different ways. The Bible is a book of faith composed and put together by the Church, I would trust the thousands of years of prayer, study, and tradition that go into interpreting it by saints and other holy and intellegent men and women up to today rather than the words of a few folks who obviously have no faith in its Inspiration and have an axe to grind. EvenBob and s2dbaker, leave the Bible alone - when you cherry pick certain passages and try to make them say what you want it is embarassing and wrong. How do you weigh one fantastic (emphasis on the fantasy part) verse about a bear charging out of the woods against the hundreds of other passages where insults are to be forgiven or when Christ Himself says, "turn the other cheek." How do you weigh a rehash of an ancient Mesopotamian story meant to show the serious and real consequences of sin and wickedness and their power to destroy the world with the flood of mercy that flows from the side of Christ on the Cross or the thousands of other places in the Bible that speak of forgiveness and God's patient and enduring love. All this talk about slavery, which is a little different than the type of slavery based on racial prejeduice that jumps to the modern mind, is also in numerous places shown to not be in the spirit of the Christian faith, please read the entire book of Philemon in the NT. I think you should make a new year's resolution to treat the Bible more as a whole than just try to comb through it and find certain passages that seem on the surface to support some obscure and offbase point. You might also want to read some commentaries and explore how certain passages have been understood through the centuries. Happy New Year!
MathExtremist
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December 31st, 2011 at 5:43:17 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

You might also want to read some commentaries and explore how certain passages have been understood through the centuries. Happy New Year!


I was hoping you'd provide that commentary. How should one interpret "If a man sells his daughter as a servant"?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Face
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December 31st, 2011 at 5:51:24 PM permalink
FrG! Before you go...

I know it's been a habit of some non believers to, as you say, cherry pick sentences of the Bible and sometimes take them out of context. But ME brought up a part and I had an interest in this. His is specific, but is part of a broader topic I meant to bring up in the past.

How does one, in this case you, reconcile some of the things in the Bible we know now to be untrue or false? The bears was a good one, yet I can see what I guess is your side to the story and that's good, but others leave me wondering. Whether it was ME's point about the slavery, or the Great Flood, or what have you, how do you explain or reconcile your belief vs what we know to be true?
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EvenBob
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December 31st, 2011 at 5:52:43 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

when you cherry pick certain passages and try to make them say what you want it is embarassing and wrong.



Please give an example of what I quoted from the Bible
about slavery thats wrong. It looks pretty straightforward;
you can sell your daughter into sexual slavery. You can
beat your slaves. You can keep the children of slaves
you might later set free. Tell me how this is out of context.
What is the context, then.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FrGamble
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December 31st, 2011 at 6:03:52 PM permalink
Quote: Face

FrG! Before you go...

I know it's been a habit of some non believers to, as you say, cherry pick sentences of the Bible and sometimes take them out of context. But ME brought up a part and I had an interest in this. His is specific, but is part of a broader topic I meant to bring up in the past.

How does one, in this case you, reconcile some of the things in the Bible we know now to be untrue or false? The bears was a good one, yet I can see what I guess is your side to the story and that's good, but others leave me wondering. Whether it was ME's point about the slavery, or the Great Flood, or what have you, how do you explain or reconcile your belief vs what we know to be true?



Okay, let me run to this party but before that let me make sure I've got your question right. How do I reconcile things like the six days of creation spoken of in Genesis with modern scientific understanding of the formation of the Earth, etc? Another example would be the question of the great flood, or Jonah spending three days in the belly of the whale, or are all the dates and times of the ancient kings exactly correct when listed in the Bible - are you asking how I reconcile these stories and lists with what we know today would not be correct or not make much sense barring some crazy intervention or miracle? (Don't worry I'm not going to pull the old 'its a miracle card on you') I'd be happy to try and answer that for you on behalf of myself and the Catholic Church's take on things.

ME - could you by any chance get me the book, chapter, and verse on that quote you mentioned and I'd try to provide what little commentary I can.
miplet
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December 31st, 2011 at 6:57:49 PM permalink
Exodus 21:7
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December 31st, 2011 at 7:03:41 PM permalink
Indeed, FrG. I know there are some who belief in "New Earth", although I'm pretty certain you have already stated that is not one of your beliefs. And the story of the bear...I guess I can see your side of it, taken in context, to not necessarily mean God got pissed and murdered 42 children out of hand. And stuff like the Dec 25th controversy isn't that big a deal to me...

It's mostly the set in stone stuff. ME's question of the slavery thing, it seems to be pretty black and white that Jesus endorsed slavery, I don't see much allegory or metaphor in there. We know the Great Flood could not happen with the amount of water that has ever existed on Earth, yet the story seems to be told as fact, again, not metaphor. Wasn't Noah purported to be 400 some odd years old?

So yeah, I guess it doesn't matter of a specific story for me personally, but I was wondering about ANY issue where you found conflict. How did you handle it? How did you make it fit into your mind, your worldview, your belief? And yeah, I do hate "it's a miracle" or "cause the Bible says so" explanations, but since I don't make the rules for these things, it is an acceptable answer.
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EvenBob
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December 31st, 2011 at 7:04:54 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

Exodus 21:7



I don't understand how this is cherry picking
or taking something out of context.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RogerKint
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December 31st, 2011 at 9:10:57 PM permalink
Here's some commentary from an apparent Christian perspective on this verse. This doesn't appear to be satisfactory but whatever. Lameth commentary

Happy new year!
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EvenBob
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December 31st, 2011 at 9:38:20 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

This doesn't appear to be satisfactory but whatever. Lameth commentary



"The laws in this chapter relate to the fifth and sixth commandments; and though they differ from our times and customs, nor are they binding on us, yet they explain the moral law, and the rules of natural justice. The servant, in the state of servitude, was an emblem of that state of bondage to sin, Satan, and the law, which man is brought into by robbing God of his glory, by the transgression of his precepts."

What a load of meaningless gobblygook.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
HotBlonde
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December 31st, 2011 at 9:45:52 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Eternity isn't a place, eternity is now. You're right in the middle of it.

Quote: boymimbo

And you know this how?

I agree with Bob. Human beings are the ones who invented the clock.

At the same time I agree with this statement as well...
Quote: boymimbo

No one possesses any proof of an afterlife, nor does anyone have proof that there is no afterlife. Choose what you believe, but you don't truly know. No one does.

I agree with this because I do believe that we can't really know anything for sure. We are just mere human beings. And what we do know we can only know through our limited human capacities. There are things that are outside of our awareness and dimension that we could not fully understand cuz we see things through human eyes (insert another plug for the "What the Bleep Do We Know" book)

And in regards to the tons of contradictory and even fable-like stories in the Bible, FrG says:

Quote: FrGamble

I would trust the thousands of years of prayer, study, and tradition that go into interpreting it by saints and other holy and intellegent men and women up to today

this just reminds me, again, of people who are trying (and even so in a good way) to make sense of something that in the end doesn't make sense. You're trying to make the pieces fit together and not only is it a laborous task but a task that will not make logical sense in the end. Hence the religious people who put all the rest of it "on faith". That excuse can be used to wipe away anything then!

As I've said before in regards to Ockham's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The bible is one of the most complicated, if not THE most complicated, book out there. If you gave me a book that thick and with as many words as the Bible that was written scientifically instead, that would make more sense than the contradicting and way far out there stuff that's in the bible.

And since Bob mentioned Satan, what's up with that whole thing? I know we've characterized the devil as being red with a pitch fork and horns, but come on. Good vs. evil has always been an entertaining subject, but I've always looked at it as entertainment not to be taken seriously. It just makes me think of the G.I. Joe cartoons I'd watch as a kid, or any other cartoon that I watched for that matter (except Family Guy... that show rules!). That there is an evil counterpart to Jesus who we call Satain and who is floating around creating havoc and doing his own activities on this planet is just another fairy tale.
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RogerKint
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December 31st, 2011 at 9:53:09 PM permalink
When you were a Christian didn't you learn that the Bible is actually a collection of books/scrolls?
...now you know and knowing is half the battle.
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EvenBob
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December 31st, 2011 at 10:15:09 PM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

That there is an evil counterpart to Jesus who we call Satain and who is floating around creating havoc and doing his own activities on this planet is just another fairy tale.



Its Batman and the Riddler. Its Holmes and Moriarity.
Every book and movie has to have a protagonist
and antagonist. Jesus and Satan have to exist together,
or Jesus would have nobody to defeat. They're inseparable.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
HotBlonde
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December 31st, 2011 at 10:19:49 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

When you were a Christian didn't you learn that the Bible is actually a collection of books/scrolls?
...now you know and knowing is half the battle.

I like your little G.I. Joe reference. The church I went to taught me that EVERYTHING in the bible was true, no matter how ridiculous it sounded. The snake in the Adam and Eve story really did talk, Noah really had 2 of every living creature on his boat, god really made the earth in 6 days, etc., etc. I'm trying to remember, did FrG say anything about this? Whether he really believes all of this is really true? I'm sure different denominations have their own opinions (again, another inconsistency in the church) but I was just wondering what Catholics though of all of this, or if it is ok for them to say that some of the stories are actually stories put for teaching purposes and not to be taken literally.
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odiousgambit
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January 1st, 2012 at 3:25:32 AM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

I like your little G.I. Joe reference. The church I went to taught me that EVERYTHING in the bible was true



Yes, there are churches I guess who can't tolerate the smallest measure of Higher Criticism, and the kids in particular seem to be expected to swallow it all hook, line, and sinker. But I hope that you aren't expecting Fr G, for example, to really say much here. A minister obviously has to be careful about going around saying " I don't believe in the literal story of Adam and Eve" with the snake talking and all that. That he doesn't wouldn't mean he is being dishonest either. It's not fair to demand that of him.

Perhaps it is a bit like a real scientist tolerating the dilettantes here [I include myself] tossing around the ideas on the scientific thread. If we were taking real science courses at a good university on any kind of high level, such as to get a degree, the math that would be thrown in without hesitation would be totally dilettante-crushing. Many of us would be quickly disabused of any notion we were going anywhere towards degree-level understanding of science topics. Yet what would we think of the Professor who was asked to do a lecture to the layman, and he started in on some level like we were seeking degrees? They don't throw in a lick of math on "The Universe" series from the History Channel, yet that is very accessible, and just what it is supposed to be. Should a minister start ticking off half his congregation by saying some of them "were full of it" as to what they believe?

If that is a bad example, still I have to say I am TOTALLY unimpressed with the atheists and other doubters here who keep setting up straw men topics that they then tear to pieces. Made-up examples follow:

"God is some guy with a white beard" ha ha ha what fool believes that?
"Satan is some red dude with horns" ha ha ha Christians are so dumb!
"Believers say Heaven is up there just above the clouds, and now that we have sent people into space we can see it is not there" ha ha ha how stupid the believers are! [supposedly the Soviet Union announced this once for real]

I could go on of course.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
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