Thread Rating:

Garnabby
Garnabby
Joined: Aug 14, 2010
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 197
December 8th, 2011 at 9:39:23 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

That's also why there's a double standard concerning god's actions.


Isn't religion just another branch of philosophy, with its own thought-out underlaying systems of, egs, worship, and retribution?
Why bet at all, if you can be sure? Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts? (P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
Garnabby
Garnabby
Joined: Aug 14, 2010
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 197
December 8th, 2011 at 9:57:23 AM permalink
What surprises me the most here is the seemingly-complete lack of common ground between the "believers" and the "non-believers". Does anyone believe it's that simple, or black-and-white?

Wouldn't it be a lot quicker to try to prove out as many of the other guys' points, etc, as possible in an effort to iterate to some sort of a real conclusion by limit?

I don't know about you, but i'm willing to risk the solution being uninteresting, the universe suddenly subscribing to a new one, etc.
Why bet at all, if you can be sure? Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts? (P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
  • Threads: 176
  • Posts: 3532
December 8th, 2011 at 10:07:16 AM permalink
Quote: Garnabby

What surprises me the most here is the seemingly-complete lack of common ground between the "believers" and the "non-believers". Does anyone believe it's that simple, or black-and-white?

Wouldn't it be a lot quicker to try to prove out as many of the other guys' points, etc, as possible in an effort to iterate to some sort of a real conclusion by limit?

I don't know about you, but i'm willing to risk the solution being uninteresting, the universe suddenly subscribing to a new one, etc.



No matter how much we know, life and existence will always be mysterious. Every answer raises an infinity of questions. I've never thought of a lack of belief in a god as an admission of banality; to me it's the exact opposite. A god is too simple an answer for such a magnificent existence.

Invoking a god ends inquiry. It is why Notre Dame will never join the Big 10... it has nothing to do with sports, and everything to do with the pooled research dollars and where they will be spent, specifically stem cell research.

Religion is about finite answers. Science is about infinite questions. The two will never reconcile.
NO KILL I
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
December 8th, 2011 at 10:08:04 AM permalink
Mosca thanks for your good post. I have learned through the discussions on this forum that just because you do not believe in God does not mean you are neccessarily unhappy or immoral. I no longer hold that position. However I still struggle with the idea that your happiness and morality is not based on your disbelief in God. You see I think the way we may be wired differently is my happiness, my goodness, my hope, my peace, my everything is directly connected to my belief in God. I can't stress this enough - God is everything to me and without Him I know my life would fall apart and there would be no joy for me, call it a crutch or a weakness I don't care.

What I hear you and many other atheists saying is that your happiness, your goodness, your hope, your peace, your everything is not because you do not believe in God, that is just what you consider a fact and reality, you ground yourself in something else whch brings you joy. What is that in which you are grounded in without God that makes life meaningful, brings you happiness, and encourages you to do good?

Your secular prayers are beautiful and you are right without God the meaning is not less true. However why does it make sense to be forgiving, loving, frank and honest if ultimately it doesn't matter? I think one would say because it is the right thing to do, but if you take the idea there is no God to its logical conclusion then ultimately it doesn't matter and good and evil don't make sense. The only purely logical way of living based on the belief that there is no God would seem to me to be - live it up, do whatever is going to make you happy for the longest amount of time, don't waste time thinking about others, lie, cheat, steal, whatever you need to do to make this crazy chance of life pleasurable for you now because there is nothing afterwards except death and nothingness.

It just seems to me that my goodness is based on my belief in God and your goodness (which I do not doubt) is in spite of your idea there is no God.
Garnabby
Garnabby
Joined: Aug 14, 2010
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 197
December 8th, 2011 at 10:11:33 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Mosca thanks for your good post.


Yes. But that conclusion is something i am comfortably in disagreement against!
Why bet at all, if you can be sure? Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts? (P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 421
  • Posts: 23230
December 8th, 2011 at 12:44:36 PM permalink
Joseph Campbell started out his career as a devout
Catholic, but that dropped away as he began his
lifelong study of all religions. He eventually came to
the conclusion that the idea of god is impossible. He
said god, as we use the word, is a metaphor that
includes everything we don't understand about the
universe. Thats why god has shrunk so much in the
last 400 years, the more we learn thru science, the
smaller god becomes.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 421
  • Posts: 23230
December 8th, 2011 at 12:50:48 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

It seems as if some atheists are saying yes it would be wonderful to believe my life has meaning



Which atheists are those, exactly. You seem to think life
can only have one meaning, service to god. In fact, it can
have as many meanings as possible, your imagination is
the limits. Joseph Campbell said 'follow your bliss' to find
meaning. Follow what you love and what makes you happy.
Obviously, Padre, thats what you did, and we're all happy
for you. However, don't try and make your bliss somebody
elses, thats really none of your business..
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
December 8th, 2011 at 1:01:07 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

It seems to be that many non-religious people are using a similar logical fallacy of radical doubt. If something ought to be true it obviously does not follow that it has to be, but would it not be fair to say that we should lean that way.



I'm not sure what the logical fallacy of "radical doubt" is. I don not agree it is "fair to say" we should lean that way. It IS fair to examine that approach, and see if it is true or not, and come to some conclusions. But reason to examine something does not make that hypothesis true, it just makes it a hypothesis worth examining.

Cause and effect, in some ways. While it's fair to say "The Universe should have an objective morality defined by supernatural being" it's not fair to say "therefore The Universe MUST have an objective morality". The conclusion doesn't follow the statement.

And that's all I am saying. How you reach your faith in God is not what I am attacking. I am attacking merely the argument for God based on a faulty assumption you made. Again, as I am fond of saying, a faulty argument neither disproves or proves the existence of God (or any other logical outcome you may make).

Quote:

It seems as if some atheists are saying yes it would be wonderful to believe my life has meaning and there is some ultimate purpose and I feel in my gut somehow that there is more to life and to me than some cosmic accident, yet I will not believe it. It is as if they say yes there is creation and logically I would imagine there is a creator but NO I will not believe that, nor entertain any thought about it, and even ridicule those who do.



It seems as if you are projecting here.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 421
  • Posts: 23230
December 8th, 2011 at 3:01:59 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

It seems as if you are projecting here.



The whole religion is based on projecting and reading
between the lines. Why is Mary holy in the Catholic
Church, for instance? I've read the Bible, there's nothing
in there about praying to Mary, or using her name or
about crossing yourself. I've read a little about how Mary
got raised up so high, and its so convoluted and so
confusing, I gave up trying to understand it.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
December 8th, 2011 at 3:40:33 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The whole religion is based on projecting and reading
between the lines. Why is Mary holy in the Catholic
Church, for instance? I've read the Bible, there's nothing
in there about praying to Mary, or using her name or
about crossing yourself. I've read a little about how Mary
got raised up so high, and its so convoluted and so
confusing, I gave up trying to understand it.



To not get off track on this thread I'd be happy to answer this question on the Celebrate Religion here thread, especially because today is the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

I really would like to try and understand the idea of atheism more. It would be helpful if someone could explain why they are good, kind, and moral because of thier atheism? There are again many reasons why people are all of these things (peaceful, generous, etc.) but specifically how does atheism, that there is no God, actually help you to live your life?

  • Jump to: